Oct. 6, 2025
Episode 45: Beyond the Classroom: How a PE Teacher Became a Transformational Leader with Dr. Donovan Smalls II
Send us a text What if the best instructional leadership doesn’t start with a rubric but with people? We sit down with Dr. Donovan Smalls II to unpack how a former PE teacher and college professor became an assistant principal known for calm under pressure, disciplined time management, and a people-first approach that lifts instruction across a building. We dig into the pivotal COVID moment that rerouted his career and why choosing to be the solution is the first real test of leadership. Don...
What if the best instructional leadership doesn’t start with a rubric but with people? We sit down with Dr. Donovan Smalls II to unpack how a former PE teacher and college professor became an assistant principal known for calm under pressure, disciplined time management, and a people-first approach that lifts instruction across a building.
We dig into the pivotal COVID moment that rerouted his career and why choosing to be the solution is the first real test of leadership. Donovan shares how he architects his day—blocking morning walkthroughs, staying visible, and using curriculum work when culture isn’t ready for frequent drop-ins so instruction stays a priority despite bus duty, discipline, and the inbox. He offers candid stories about navigating heated parent meetings with poise, setting boundaries with grace, and keeping the focus on all students, not just the loudest requests. The result is a roadmap for aspiring leaders who want to manage their time, build trust with teachers, and protect the learning environment with emotional intelligence.
We also explore his bestselling book, Beyond the Classroom, and why leading people and organizations must come before leading instruction. Donovan explains how the leadership interview differs from the teacher interview, and how to tell a compelling leadership story that lands the job and sets you up to lead from day one. Along the way, we trade practical examples of classroom visibility that teachers and students actually enjoy, plus the power of national networking to expand your toolkit and confidence. If you’re aiming for assistant principal or principal roles or looking to level up where you are—you’ll find concrete tactics and encouraging perspective you can use this week.
Connect with Dr. Donovan Smalls II:
Website: https://www.donovansmalls2.com/
Instagram: @donovansmalls2
TikTok: @donovansmalls2
Threads: @donovansmalls2
X: @DonovanSmalls2
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/donovansmalls2/
The Aspiring School Leader Podcast: (Youtube)
The Aspiring School Leader Podcast: (Apple Podcast)
Teach Better Mid Roll Network Ad
Connect with Principal JL Click Here:
Want to be a guest on Educational Leadership with Principal JL?
Send Principal JL a message on PodMatch, here: https://www.podmatch.com/hostdetailpreview/1742787866678447e5bdb89c1
00:00 - Guest Intro & Background
03:32 - From Coaching to Teaching
04:59 - Student-First Mindset in Leadership
07:24 - COVID Pivot to Administration
11:18 - Broadening Impact Beyond One Classroom
14:07 - Time Management as a Self-Starter
17:39 - Walkthroughs, Visibility, and Trust
22:42 - Emotional Intelligence Under Pressure
28:26 - Podcasting and Coaching Aspiring Leaders
32:59 - Work–Life Balance and Sustainable Output
37:04 - Nationwide Networking and PD
40:34 - Advice for Aspiring Principals
44:23 - Finding Your Level: Elem, MS, HS
47:27 - Handling Public Perception and Feedback
50:28 - Why the Work Matters: Centering Kids
53:19 - Book, Podcast, and How to Connect
WEBVTT
00:00:03.839 --> 00:00:08.240
Today I'm very excited to have on the show Dr.
00:00:08.240 --> 00:00:10.240
Donovan Smalls II.
00:00:10.240 --> 00:00:16.719
Donovan has 13 years of experience in education and four years as an assistant principal.
00:00:16.719 --> 00:00:26.559
Donovan is a dynamic educational leader, bestselling author of Beyond the Classroom, and host of the Aspiring School Leader Podcast.
00:00:26.559 --> 00:00:39.520
He currently serves as an assistant principal, school leadership coach, and an executive board member of the New Jersey affiliate of the National Alliance of Black School Educators.
00:00:39.520 --> 00:00:48.799
His mission to empower aspiring school leaders to confidently step into the leadership roles and lead with impact from day one.
00:00:48.799 --> 00:00:52.399
Now let's get to our conversation with Dr.
00:00:52.399 --> 00:00:54.479
Donovan Smalls II.
00:00:55.759 --> 00:01:11.120
Welcome back, everybody, to another exciting episode of the Educational Leadership Podcast.
00:01:11.120 --> 00:01:15.680
Today I am so excited to have on the show Dr.
00:01:15.680 --> 00:01:17.760
Donovan Smalls II.
00:01:17.760 --> 00:01:20.959
Donovan, welcome to the show.
00:01:21.519 --> 00:01:22.719
Thanks for having me, Jeff.
00:01:22.719 --> 00:01:24.000
I'm excited.
00:01:24.719 --> 00:01:26.000
All right, Donovan.
00:01:26.000 --> 00:01:31.359
I'm going to go ahead and ask you the same question that I asked everybody on this show.
00:01:31.359 --> 00:01:35.760
What inspired you to become an educator?
00:01:36.239 --> 00:01:40.560
So I really didn't see myself becoming an educator when I was young.
00:01:40.560 --> 00:01:47.840
I don't have that story of an inspirational teacher that I looked up to and wanted to walk in their footsteps.
00:01:47.840 --> 00:01:51.120
I think education really found me.
00:01:51.120 --> 00:01:54.079
I was one that loved sports growing up.
00:01:54.079 --> 00:01:58.400
I continue to love sports, played it, and that was really my path.
00:01:58.400 --> 00:02:07.599
I thought I was going to be a college basketball coach, which I did coach at Virginia State University for the women's basketball team for two years, really enjoyed that experience.
00:02:07.599 --> 00:02:11.039
Division II school, we were top 10 in the country.
00:02:11.039 --> 00:02:17.840
But I did undergrad, I majored in health and exercise science, health and exercise science teaching.
00:02:17.840 --> 00:02:24.560
And so that kind of just put me on a path of teaching that I never thought that I would fall into, right?
00:02:24.560 --> 00:02:26.000
I thought I would just coach.
00:02:26.000 --> 00:02:33.680
However, coaching and teaching have similar skills, you know, your similar passion in terms of helping young people.
00:02:33.680 --> 00:02:36.879
And that's what I saw myself doing for the rest of my life.
00:02:36.879 --> 00:02:41.439
And so I kind of fell into it and, you know, fell in love with it.
00:02:41.840 --> 00:02:53.599
Well, that's awesome, Donovan Yeah, it sounds like we kind of have some similar paths there when it comes to getting into education and finding coaching our way into our teaching careers.
00:02:53.599 --> 00:03:01.759
And so was there anything within your teaching experiences that helped you prepare you for the administration?
00:03:02.719 --> 00:03:09.120
The main thing I think that that helped me during teaching was the perspective of keeping students first.
00:03:09.120 --> 00:03:13.599
I think that everything we do as educators should be to keep students first.
00:03:13.599 --> 00:03:17.599
And that really became apparent when I stepped into school leadership, right?
00:03:17.599 --> 00:03:26.800
Because I think sometimes we can get caught up in appeasing the preferences of adults as opposed to taking care of the needs of children.
00:03:26.800 --> 00:03:34.000
And so as an educator, as a teacher, when I first started out, my principal used to preach that all the time.
00:03:34.000 --> 00:03:35.840
We have to keep kids first.
00:03:35.840 --> 00:03:50.560
And so now as a school leader, that's one of the things that I pride myself on and just constantly checking in with teachers, making sure that they have everything that they need so that they can be great educators, great teachers for our kids.
00:03:50.560 --> 00:03:54.479
So I think that's probably the number one thing is keeping the kids first.
00:03:55.280 --> 00:03:56.400
I really love that.
00:03:56.400 --> 00:04:05.039
You know, I think, you know, when you have a student-centered educational practice, you're really focused on making sure those kids are taken care of.
00:04:05.039 --> 00:04:27.040
And you said something there that's something that you need to do to help keep kids centered and focused is helping your teachers be supported and making sure you're helping them out and getting them to where they need to get to so they can help those students become the learners and the the thriving adults that we want them to be uh when they're school.
00:04:27.040 --> 00:04:30.319
So with that, kind of we're doing your teaching here.
00:04:30.319 --> 00:04:32.639
You've got some experience now.
00:04:32.639 --> 00:04:40.160
What was it that really inspired you to take that next step and become an assistant principal?
00:04:40.160 --> 00:04:42.240
Was it a tap on a shoulder?
00:04:42.240 --> 00:04:45.519
Was it you just decided I'm ready to do this?
00:04:45.519 --> 00:04:46.560
What was it?
00:04:47.600 --> 00:04:50.160
You know, it was really a pivot during COVID.
00:04:50.160 --> 00:05:00.800
So I taught health and physical education for four years, and then I had this desire to teach at the college level and be a college professor.
00:05:00.800 --> 00:05:04.319
And so I, you know, started working on my doctorate.
00:05:04.319 --> 00:05:22.000
I finished my doctorate degree, I defended my dissertation, and then a week later, my alma mater, Virginia State University, they called me back and they said, Hey, we have uh an assistant principal, an assistant professor position open.
00:05:22.000 --> 00:05:25.600
Would you be open to coming to Virginia to be a professor?
00:05:25.600 --> 00:05:30.800
And of course, I jumped at that opportunity because that's the reason why I got my doctorate.
00:05:30.800 --> 00:05:34.560
And so one year in, and then COVID hits.
00:05:34.560 --> 00:05:38.240
I'm thriving as a professor, but then COVID hits.
00:05:38.240 --> 00:05:45.839
And so, you know, a lot of institutions were facing financial burden, and so they had to make some shifts and changes.
00:05:45.839 --> 00:05:54.879
And so during that time, my wife happened to be, you know, getting ready to move to Cincinnati, Ohio, to finish a year of fellowship.
00:05:54.879 --> 00:05:56.959
And so we both went together.
00:05:56.959 --> 00:06:04.079
In the same month that I lost my job as a professor, I found another job as a health and PE teacher.
00:06:04.079 --> 00:06:16.399
And so I'm teaching at this charter school in Cincinnati, and I'm wondering, you know, uh like I'm wondering why the culture is very different from what I left as a teacher when I first started.
00:06:16.399 --> 00:06:20.399
You know, the the morale was down, student achievement was low.
00:06:20.399 --> 00:06:24.000
And so I'm trying to figure out why this is happening.
00:06:24.000 --> 00:06:28.240
And I'm noticing that every school isn't the same, every school leader isn't the same.
00:06:28.240 --> 00:06:30.959
So I'm thinking about what my pivot is going to be.
00:06:30.959 --> 00:06:36.959
And then instead of complaining about the problem, I figured, let me try to be the solution, right?
00:06:36.959 --> 00:06:43.680
And so I went back, I ended up working on my principal certification, finished that.
00:06:43.680 --> 00:06:46.879
My wife and I moved back to New Jersey.
00:06:46.879 --> 00:06:55.040
I ended up get going back to the school where I first started teaching to finish up all of my certification stuff.
00:06:55.040 --> 00:06:59.680
And then from there, you know, I landed my first vice principal job.
00:06:59.680 --> 00:07:02.000
And so that's really how I got into it.
00:07:02.000 --> 00:07:03.439
It was a pivot, you know.
00:07:03.439 --> 00:07:09.759
Unfortunately, COVID caused a lot of issues and, you know, a lot of mourning for people.
00:07:09.759 --> 00:07:16.240
I think it was also an opportunity for a lot of people to pivot, and that's that's literally what happened for me.
00:07:16.720 --> 00:07:21.759
Well, I really love how you took a negative situation and turned into a positive, right?
00:07:21.759 --> 00:07:24.639
Because you could have been like down and out, but you, you know what?
00:07:24.639 --> 00:07:27.120
I'm gonna pivot, I'm gonna figure this out.
00:07:27.120 --> 00:07:28.959
I really enjoy what I'm doing.
00:07:28.959 --> 00:07:37.920
So that's kind of interesting how you go from Virginia to Ohio, then to New Jersey, you know, kind of all these different reasons around that.
00:07:37.920 --> 00:07:48.319
I really enjoyed understanding, you know, that pivot story because there's things that get us into this profession, but get us into these leadership roles.
00:07:48.319 --> 00:07:51.759
And so I really uh appreciate you sharing that with us.
00:07:51.759 --> 00:08:00.720
Now, with that, you know, what are some things you have learned as a leader, you know, when it comes to being an assistant principal?
00:08:00.720 --> 00:08:03.519
What is like we talk about mind shift, right?
00:08:03.519 --> 00:08:13.839
You went from a classroom setting in your situation, PE, you're more of a gym or outside setting, depending on what you're teaching for the day.
00:08:13.839 --> 00:08:21.040
So, what was that shift like for you to go from classroom teacher into the assistant principal?
00:08:22.160 --> 00:08:31.759
For me, just thinking about the level of impact that I could have on students and allowing that to be greater than being in a classroom, right?
00:08:31.759 --> 00:08:39.679
I I think for me, it was as a health and physical education teacher, I was able to see every student in the building.
00:08:39.679 --> 00:08:54.399
And so that gave me a different perspective about learning and how some students might not necessarily be as open to having conversation in their math class, but then when they come into the gym, they're excited and they're invigorated.
00:08:54.399 --> 00:09:00.320
And then that's a way to get to that student and talk to them about the academic aspect of their learning.
00:09:00.320 --> 00:09:10.080
And so what I've learned is that there's so many ways that that students learn, and there are ways that we can impact students, but it for me, I wanted to do it on a broader scale.
00:09:10.080 --> 00:09:13.279
I always saw myself as a leader, even within sports.
00:09:13.279 --> 00:09:14.960
I was a point guard.
00:09:14.960 --> 00:09:24.399
And so, you know, that was one of the leadership roles that I had throughout my athletic career, which translated very easily, I think, when it came to school leadership.
00:09:24.399 --> 00:09:28.320
Leadership is something I'm extremely passionate about, it's something that I study.
00:09:28.320 --> 00:09:32.080
I'm constantly looking at life through the lens of leadership.
00:09:32.080 --> 00:09:37.519
And so it really was a natural progression for me, and I don't regret it at all.
00:09:37.519 --> 00:09:38.480
I love it.
00:09:39.200 --> 00:09:39.679
Awesome.
00:09:39.679 --> 00:09:42.720
I really appreciate you sharing that as well.
00:09:42.720 --> 00:09:50.720
And because a lot of people don't understand when you go from the classroom into the principalship, you know, there is a mind shift.
00:09:50.720 --> 00:09:57.200
You go from, you know, having your own little world here, and then, oh my goodness, I have everything else out here.
00:09:57.200 --> 00:10:11.440
I really like the perspective of being a PE teacher, being see, being able to see all those kids, and you kind of help build those relationships already and knowing, like, you know what, I see all these different types of learners.
00:10:11.440 --> 00:10:14.399
I'm not just kind of like stuck in a content area.
00:10:14.399 --> 00:10:21.840
I actually see everybody because I know like in Nebraska, everybody has to take PE it's required by our face.
00:10:21.840 --> 00:10:25.919
So, you know, you're gonna get them all on top of the road, you know, eventually.
00:10:25.919 --> 00:10:30.320
So I think I really, really enjoyed listening to that perspective as well.
00:10:30.320 --> 00:10:35.919
What are some things, you know, in your last four years being an assistant principal that you've learned about leadership?
00:10:35.919 --> 00:10:38.399
How have you grown in the last four years?
00:10:39.679 --> 00:10:45.919
One of the ways I've I've grown is to understand that as a school leader, you have to be a self-starter.
00:10:45.919 --> 00:10:58.399
I think one of the most not necessarily surprising things as I transition from teacher to leader, but I'd say a thing that you have to get used to is you have to manage your own time, right?
00:10:58.399 --> 00:11:08.240
You don't have a schedule with these are this is my prep period, this is the time that I eat lunch, this is the time that, you know, I'm able to plan, right?
00:11:08.240 --> 00:11:11.200
Like you literally have to create your own schedule.
00:11:11.200 --> 00:11:14.960
Yes, your principal is going to give you a role and responsibilities.
00:11:14.960 --> 00:11:24.080
However, it's up to you to be an instructional leader, to get it to classrooms, to give meaningful feedback, have those instructional conversations, right?
00:11:24.080 --> 00:11:24.879
Be visible.
00:11:24.879 --> 00:11:26.799
You have to figure all of that out.
00:11:26.799 --> 00:11:31.919
And so for me, that was one of like the main lessons that I've learned.
00:11:31.919 --> 00:11:33.840
It's you have to be a self-starter.
00:11:33.840 --> 00:11:35.840
You have to manage your own time.
00:11:35.840 --> 00:11:45.759
And you still, regardless of all of the discipline you might have to do, the lunch duty, the bus duty, you have to find time to be an instructional leader.
00:11:45.759 --> 00:11:59.840
So during my first year, I, you know, kind of felt like, man, I really want to be an instructional leader, but the culture of the school wasn't necessarily ready for us just popping into classrooms and doing walkthroughs.
00:11:59.840 --> 00:12:01.759
So that brought a little bit of frustration.
00:12:01.759 --> 00:12:05.200
I'm like, I this is the reason why I got into school leadership.
00:12:05.200 --> 00:12:10.879
But I've learned that you can also pivot in terms of being a part of a curriculum committee.
00:12:10.879 --> 00:12:15.600
And so now we're doing the back-end work of instruction.
00:12:15.600 --> 00:12:20.000
I'm still being an instructional leader, but it just might look a little different, right?
00:12:20.000 --> 00:12:28.960
And so I think you know, instructional leadership is extremely important, and we need to continue to find ways to express that.
00:12:30.320 --> 00:12:39.360
Do you have any tricks or tips you can tell people about managing your time and how you kind of get your you know, your stuff done?
00:12:39.360 --> 00:12:42.480
Like for me, I will list things out.
00:12:42.480 --> 00:12:46.080
I used to list it, but now my list becomes my Google Calendar.
00:12:46.080 --> 00:12:51.039
So if it's important for me, I put it on my calendar and I chuck out time throughout the day.
00:12:51.039 --> 00:12:52.799
So I dedicate time.
00:12:52.799 --> 00:13:04.559
And so something I'm doing this year that I haven't done a very good job of when you're talking about the educational or that constructional leadership piece, yeah, is actually blocking out periods of the day.
00:13:04.559 --> 00:13:06.399
So I block out different.
00:13:06.399 --> 00:13:08.320
We have block scheduling.
00:13:08.320 --> 00:13:12.000
So I'll take this block, this day, this block, the next day.
00:13:12.000 --> 00:13:18.720
I I move around the blocks and then I go, that's my dedicated walkthrough time where I will go and I will visit.
00:13:18.720 --> 00:13:23.679
I try to visit about three classrooms that every day that I do this.
00:13:23.679 --> 00:13:30.720
Now I don't do it every single day of the week, but I try to do it at least three times a week where I block out time and and do that.
00:13:30.720 --> 00:13:35.440
So do you have any tricks of the trade that you that helps you with that?
00:13:36.000 --> 00:13:38.320
Yeah, um, like you, I use Google Calendar.
00:13:38.320 --> 00:13:39.440
That's what I lean on.
00:13:39.440 --> 00:13:47.919
I lean on Google Calendar, I schedule everything there, meetings, walkthroughs, observations, post-observations.
00:13:47.919 --> 00:13:55.039
And then I also try to, you know, I try to get my my walkthroughs done first thing in the morning.
00:13:55.039 --> 00:14:22.720
So right after I'm letting uh students into the building, right after I am, you know, just walking through the hallways to make sure that everybody's safe and in classrooms, that's when I try to immediately pop into a few classrooms, have some instructional conversations, engage with students and teachers so that I'm at least, you know, making sure that it is a priority because we know that there's so many other things that can happen in the in the snap of a finger.
00:14:22.720 --> 00:14:31.679
And so I try to do it as soon as I can, and then maybe I'll answer some emails and then I'll go back out and and continue that visibility.
00:14:32.480 --> 00:14:36.559
But you started like popping in the classrooms where the students like, what's going on here?
00:14:36.559 --> 00:14:52.399
You know, like it was it kind of one of those they weren't used to it because I know for me, uh like that's one of the first things I did when I went from Southern Valley to Hastings is they weren't used to the principal just popping in whenever just to say hi, because it's almost like, oh my gosh, what's going on?
00:14:52.399 --> 00:14:54.320
Like, nah, very true.
00:14:54.320 --> 00:14:57.600
Now I'm like year four, and they'd be like, ah, it's just Mr.
00:14:57.600 --> 00:14:58.480
Linden, you know.
00:14:58.480 --> 00:15:01.519
So it didn't have stories like that too.
00:15:01.759 --> 00:15:03.200
Absolutely, absolutely.
00:15:03.200 --> 00:15:11.120
You know, it's interesting seeing the dynamic between different teachers and I guess, you know, their experiences because some of them are great.
00:15:11.120 --> 00:15:16.960
Like yesterday, one of our social studies teachers, I popped into his room, said good morning to everyone.
00:15:16.960 --> 00:15:22.720
And he was like, Oh, since you're here, you know, let let's let's talk about because he was doing a lesson on 9-11.
00:15:22.720 --> 00:15:25.279
He was like, Okay, what was your experience?
00:15:25.279 --> 00:15:26.080
Where were you?
00:15:26.080 --> 00:15:27.440
Can you talk a little bit about that?
00:15:27.440 --> 00:15:32.559
And so he he brought me right into the lesson, whereas others might be a little more hesitant.
00:15:32.559 --> 00:15:34.799
So it's interesting to see that dynamic.
00:15:34.799 --> 00:15:45.840
But yes, it's I always talk about like this this dynamic of like when you go through your admin program, you're taught to be an instructional leader and to get into classrooms.
00:15:45.840 --> 00:15:51.360
But as a teacher, you might not necessarily want principals, vice principals in your classrooms.
00:15:51.360 --> 00:15:53.600
So then how do you navigate that, right?
00:15:53.600 --> 00:15:57.679
That's that's always the question that I'm I'm constantly reflecting on.
00:15:57.679 --> 00:16:08.799
And so one of the strategies I try to use is just even before walking into the classroom, how can I build relationships first so that the teachers can see exactly who I am?
00:16:08.799 --> 00:16:20.159
So they know that I'm not trying to get them, I'm not out to try to give them any negative feedback, but like, how can we support one another throughout this process of raising student achievement?
00:16:20.399 --> 00:16:29.200
Yeah, no, I think you uh hit on some really great things there when you're talking about building relationships with your staff because they got to know that you care.
00:16:29.200 --> 00:16:36.559
And you know, they said at first, if you don't have that relationship, they might be going, Oh my gosh, what are they doing here?
00:16:36.559 --> 00:16:37.600
Am I in trouble?
00:16:37.600 --> 00:16:40.399
You know, a lot of times I have to go, ah, no, you're not in trouble.
00:16:40.399 --> 00:16:40.879
It's okay.
00:16:40.879 --> 00:16:56.639
It took them to build that rapport, but once they started realizing I'm there to help, I'm there to support, then it they were like, okay, this is gonna be a common thing, and it's gonna be there to help and and things like that.
00:16:56.639 --> 00:17:00.080
So I I really appreciate you uh talking about that point.
00:17:00.080 --> 00:17:05.119
And you know, our goal isn't to get teachers, is to say, we got you.
00:17:05.119 --> 00:17:07.839
You know, like we have you, we support you.
00:17:07.839 --> 00:17:10.559
We're not gonna we're not out to get you, you know.
00:17:10.559 --> 00:17:22.000
We got you on this, we want to help you become a teacher because we know the only way our building is gonna be successful is if they're successful, and the way we can do that support them.
00:17:22.000 --> 00:17:28.559
So I really appreciate that insight that you have there, and I really loved how the teacher brought you into the lesson.
00:17:28.559 --> 00:17:29.119
That's great.
00:17:29.359 --> 00:17:30.640
Oh, yeah, pull me right in.
00:17:31.440 --> 00:17:36.160
I had actually last week my English teacher came to me and said, Hey, Mr.
00:17:36.160 --> 00:17:49.680
Lyndon, I'm doing the uh 1984 book in English, and so she because we have an intercom system where I can speak like directly into a room, and so we have to kind of like you know, it's it's a nice system for an interview.
00:17:49.680 --> 00:17:50.160
That's cool.
00:17:50.160 --> 00:18:07.519
So I had this little thing I would say that was related to the book about 1984, like two plus two is five, and people gotta accept this fact.
00:18:07.519 --> 00:18:12.400
And so I like I'm the leader and I'm like the president or something.
00:18:12.400 --> 00:18:16.799
I'm like telling them that and so they had a really good, I did that for three periods.
00:18:16.799 --> 00:18:24.079
I had to talk at the time, and I would press in, I would say what I needed to say, and then the teacher would use that into the lesson.
00:18:24.079 --> 00:18:26.079
I always check in, hey, how did it go?
00:18:26.079 --> 00:18:32.000
And oh, this is great, because at first the kids uh, oh my gosh, is he broadcasting to the whole school?
00:18:32.000 --> 00:18:35.359
And then they realized that it was part of their lesson.
00:18:35.359 --> 00:18:41.119
So sometimes we get pulled in, I kind of liked it, it sounds really cool that you got pulled in.
00:18:41.680 --> 00:18:45.680
That's that sector of frog last year in our science class.
00:18:45.680 --> 00:18:57.519
So yeah, I I, you know, I really like I said, I I think the teachers actually enjoy when we're in the classroom as long as they know that they are supported and you're not trying to get them.
00:18:57.519 --> 00:19:02.160
I feel like that's that's kind of the vibe that that I get when you start to develop that rapport.
00:19:02.160 --> 00:19:07.839
They're like, oh, come in anytime, you know, yeah, and they like that visibility, they like that support, you know.
00:19:08.079 --> 00:19:11.440
And I feel yeah, I and I've experienced the same thing as well.
00:19:11.440 --> 00:19:22.559
I think the students like having you in class too, because that you'll get a build, or they get to see you in a little bit different light than being, you know, the disciplinarian, like you, you know, have to be something.
00:19:22.559 --> 00:19:28.960
So Arch Jonathan, talk about your best-selling book beyond the classroom.
00:19:28.960 --> 00:19:34.079
What motivated you to write the book and what message do you want readers to take away?
00:19:34.720 --> 00:19:42.319
So the motivation behind the book was really trying to serve as a mentor to aspiring leaders.
00:19:42.319 --> 00:19:52.319
You know, what I've learned throughout my journey and through my observation is that I feel like we put a lot of emphasis on instructional leadership, which I think is great.
00:19:52.319 --> 00:19:58.079
However, I think it's really important to be a leader in and of itself.
00:19:58.079 --> 00:20:02.640
When we talk about leadership, I mean the interpersonal skills, right?
00:20:02.640 --> 00:20:06.640
Being able to relate to others, but also the organizational skills.
00:20:06.640 --> 00:20:14.240
I think being able to lead people and the organization gives you the solid foundation to be an instructional leader.
00:20:14.240 --> 00:20:27.119
And so in my book, I focus a lot on practical strategies that help aspiring leaders build the capacity of teachers through relationship building and also organizational leadership.
00:20:27.119 --> 00:20:35.599
I've learned that some of the best leaders that I look up to actually are leaders who lead people well, right?
00:20:35.599 --> 00:20:37.200
And they lead the organization well.
00:20:37.200 --> 00:20:40.400
And so that's kind of the main premise of the book.
00:20:40.400 --> 00:20:51.519
And what I want readers to get from it is understanding that you cannot get instructional leadership right if you don't lead people and the organization well.
00:20:51.519 --> 00:20:59.519
And so that's that's really the heart of the book, helping people understand that people are the center of what we do.
00:20:59.519 --> 00:21:03.759
We lead people first and we lead instruction second.
00:21:04.319 --> 00:21:04.799
You bet.
00:21:04.799 --> 00:21:07.680
I mean, that's a great message because I do agree with that.
00:21:07.680 --> 00:21:18.480
Where if you can't lead the people, they're not gonna follow you, they're not gonna be able to make the vision or the mission that you may have come alive.
00:21:18.480 --> 00:21:42.319
And so being able to be a great leader, like you said, building relationships, having interpersonal skills, and I would say even having emotional intelligence on how to handle situations because I know something I'm trying to do is trying to help my teachers have build some capacity by communicating with each other and being able to have those tough conversations with each other when you're disagreeing.
00:21:42.319 --> 00:21:46.480
How do you have discourse with somebody that you may not agree with?
00:21:46.480 --> 00:21:55.440
That's important because we're all adults in this situation, and I've been in IEPs where a parent didn't like the decision that the IEP team had made.
00:21:55.440 --> 00:21:59.039
And I tell the parent, it's okay to disagree, it's fine.
00:21:59.039 --> 00:22:04.559
But trying to do this collectively and as a group, this is the decision that was made.
00:22:04.559 --> 00:22:10.880
And so it's one of those, you know, trying I that's one thing I'm trying to do is build my teacher capacity.
00:22:10.880 --> 00:22:12.640
How do you have these conversations?
00:22:12.640 --> 00:22:25.440
And I'll guide them through those, you know, ways and approaches and how to frame a conversation so they can be productive, but not just be a jerk about it, but actually try to come to a resolution.
00:22:25.440 --> 00:22:28.079
And those are skills people need to learn.
00:22:28.079 --> 00:22:31.599
It's hard, it's hard sometimes when you're adults.
00:22:31.599 --> 00:22:36.880
In my case, sometimes I call them adult children because the way the way things are.
00:22:36.880 --> 00:22:43.440
It's just like, dude, you gotta do it this way because if you do it this way, it's not gonna work for you.
00:22:43.440 --> 00:22:44.799
And so you try to help.
00:22:44.799 --> 00:22:54.960
That's something I do, and I really enjoy, you know, just learning about you know what you're trying to do with the book and trying to help people to build more capital.
00:22:54.960 --> 00:23:09.039
Do you have any stories about how the things that you've used in a book, you know, in real life, stories for examples that you could tell us about strategy or something that you can bring to life for us to give us an understanding?
00:23:09.839 --> 00:23:14.160
Well, I think speaking of that emotional intelligence aspect, right?
00:23:14.160 --> 00:23:26.640
I think when you become that school leader, you have to make sure that you are keeping your emotions in check because you are going to get conflict, right?
00:23:26.640 --> 00:23:30.960
You're going to have to have tough conversations with people.
00:23:30.960 --> 00:23:38.799
And, you know, you might have, like I remember having a parent and a student both cursing me out in my office.
00:23:38.799 --> 00:23:46.160
And as a leader, you have to know how to navigate those situations without you also raising to their level, right?
00:23:46.160 --> 00:23:53.440
I think it's important to know that yes, they might be upset, they might even curse you out.
00:00:03.839 --> 00:00:08.240
00:00:08.240 --> 00:00:10.240
00:00:10.240 --> 00:00:16.719
00:00:16.719 --> 00:00:26.559
00:00:26.559 --> 00:00:39.520
00:00:39.520 --> 00:00:48.799
00:00:48.799 --> 00:00:52.399
00:00:52.399 --> 00:00:54.479
00:00:55.759 --> 00:01:11.120
00:01:11.120 --> 00:01:15.680
00:01:15.680 --> 00:01:17.760
00:01:17.760 --> 00:01:20.959
00:01:21.519 --> 00:01:22.719
00:01:22.719 --> 00:01:24.000
00:01:24.719 --> 00:01:26.000
00:01:26.000 --> 00:01:31.359
00:01:31.359 --> 00:01:35.760
00:01:36.239 --> 00:01:40.560
00:01:40.560 --> 00:01:47.840
00:01:47.840 --> 00:01:51.120
00:01:51.120 --> 00:01:54.079
00:01:54.079 --> 00:01:58.400
00:01:58.400 --> 00:02:07.599
00:02:07.599 --> 00:02:11.039
00:02:11.039 --> 00:02:17.840
00:02:17.840 --> 00:02:24.560
00:02:24.560 --> 00:02:26.000
00:02:26.000 --> 00:02:33.680
00:02:33.680 --> 00:02:36.879
00:02:36.879 --> 00:02:41.439
00:02:41.840 --> 00:02:53.599
00:02:53.599 --> 00:03:01.759
00:03:02.719 --> 00:03:09.120
00:03:09.120 --> 00:03:13.599
00:03:13.599 --> 00:03:17.599
00:03:17.599 --> 00:03:26.800
00:03:26.800 --> 00:03:34.000
00:03:34.000 --> 00:03:35.840
00:03:35.840 --> 00:03:50.560
00:03:50.560 --> 00:03:54.479
00:03:55.280 --> 00:03:56.400
00:03:56.400 --> 00:04:05.039
00:04:05.039 --> 00:04:27.040
00:04:27.040 --> 00:04:30.319
00:04:30.319 --> 00:04:32.639
00:04:32.639 --> 00:04:40.160
00:04:40.160 --> 00:04:42.240
00:04:42.240 --> 00:04:45.519
00:04:45.519 --> 00:04:46.560
00:04:47.600 --> 00:04:50.160
00:04:50.160 --> 00:05:00.800
00:05:00.800 --> 00:05:04.319
00:05:04.319 --> 00:05:22.000
00:05:22.000 --> 00:05:25.600
00:05:25.600 --> 00:05:30.800
00:05:30.800 --> 00:05:34.560
00:05:34.560 --> 00:05:38.240
00:05:38.240 --> 00:05:45.839
00:05:45.839 --> 00:05:54.879
00:05:54.879 --> 00:05:56.959
00:05:56.959 --> 00:06:04.079
00:06:04.079 --> 00:06:16.399
00:06:16.399 --> 00:06:20.399
00:06:20.399 --> 00:06:24.000
00:06:24.000 --> 00:06:28.240
00:06:28.240 --> 00:06:30.959
00:06:30.959 --> 00:06:36.959
00:06:36.959 --> 00:06:43.680
00:06:43.680 --> 00:06:46.879
00:06:46.879 --> 00:06:55.040
00:06:55.040 --> 00:06:59.680
00:06:59.680 --> 00:07:02.000
00:07:02.000 --> 00:07:03.439
00:07:03.439 --> 00:07:09.759
00:07:09.759 --> 00:07:16.240
00:07:16.720 --> 00:07:21.759
00:07:21.759 --> 00:07:24.639
00:07:24.639 --> 00:07:27.120
00:07:27.120 --> 00:07:28.959
00:07:28.959 --> 00:07:37.920
00:07:37.920 --> 00:07:48.319
00:07:48.319 --> 00:07:51.759
00:07:51.759 --> 00:08:00.720
00:08:00.720 --> 00:08:03.519
00:08:03.519 --> 00:08:13.839
00:08:13.839 --> 00:08:21.040
00:08:22.160 --> 00:08:31.759
00:08:31.759 --> 00:08:39.679
00:08:39.679 --> 00:08:54.399
00:08:54.399 --> 00:09:00.320
00:09:00.320 --> 00:09:10.080
00:09:10.080 --> 00:09:13.279
00:09:13.279 --> 00:09:14.960
00:09:14.960 --> 00:09:24.399
00:09:24.399 --> 00:09:28.320
00:09:28.320 --> 00:09:32.080
00:09:32.080 --> 00:09:37.519
00:09:37.519 --> 00:09:38.480
00:09:39.200 --> 00:09:39.679
00:09:39.679 --> 00:09:42.720
00:09:42.720 --> 00:09:50.720
00:09:50.720 --> 00:09:57.200
00:09:57.200 --> 00:10:11.440
00:10:11.440 --> 00:10:14.399
00:10:14.399 --> 00:10:21.840
00:10:21.840 --> 00:10:25.919
00:10:25.919 --> 00:10:30.320
00:10:30.320 --> 00:10:35.919
00:10:35.919 --> 00:10:38.399
00:10:39.679 --> 00:10:45.919
00:10:45.919 --> 00:10:58.399
00:10:58.399 --> 00:11:08.240
00:11:08.240 --> 00:11:11.200
00:11:11.200 --> 00:11:14.960
00:11:14.960 --> 00:11:24.080
00:11:24.080 --> 00:11:24.879
00:11:24.879 --> 00:11:26.799
00:11:26.799 --> 00:11:31.919
00:11:31.919 --> 00:11:33.840
00:11:33.840 --> 00:11:35.840
00:11:35.840 --> 00:11:45.759
00:11:45.759 --> 00:11:59.840
00:11:59.840 --> 00:12:01.759
00:12:01.759 --> 00:12:05.200
00:12:05.200 --> 00:12:10.879
00:12:10.879 --> 00:12:15.600
00:12:15.600 --> 00:12:20.000
00:12:20.000 --> 00:12:28.960
00:12:30.320 --> 00:12:39.360
00:12:39.360 --> 00:12:42.480
00:12:42.480 --> 00:12:46.080
00:12:46.080 --> 00:12:51.039
00:12:51.039 --> 00:12:52.799
00:12:52.799 --> 00:13:04.559
00:13:04.559 --> 00:13:06.399
00:13:06.399 --> 00:13:08.320
00:13:08.320 --> 00:13:12.000
00:13:12.000 --> 00:13:18.720
00:13:18.720 --> 00:13:23.679
00:13:23.679 --> 00:13:30.720
00:13:30.720 --> 00:13:35.440
00:13:36.000 --> 00:13:38.320
00:13:38.320 --> 00:13:39.440
00:13:39.440 --> 00:13:47.919
00:13:47.919 --> 00:13:55.039
00:13:55.039 --> 00:14:22.720
00:14:22.720 --> 00:14:31.679
00:14:32.480 --> 00:14:36.559
00:14:36.559 --> 00:14:52.399
00:14:52.399 --> 00:14:54.320
00:14:54.320 --> 00:14:57.600
00:14:57.600 --> 00:14:58.480
00:14:58.480 --> 00:15:01.519
00:15:01.759 --> 00:15:03.200
00:15:03.200 --> 00:15:11.120
00:15:11.120 --> 00:15:16.960
00:15:16.960 --> 00:15:22.720
00:15:22.720 --> 00:15:25.279
00:15:25.279 --> 00:15:26.080
00:15:26.080 --> 00:15:27.440
00:15:27.440 --> 00:15:32.559
00:15:32.559 --> 00:15:34.799
00:15:34.799 --> 00:15:45.840
00:15:45.840 --> 00:15:51.360
00:15:51.360 --> 00:15:53.600
00:15:53.600 --> 00:15:57.679
00:15:57.679 --> 00:16:08.799
00:16:08.799 --> 00:16:20.159
00:16:20.399 --> 00:16:29.200
00:16:29.200 --> 00:16:36.559
00:16:36.559 --> 00:16:37.600
00:16:37.600 --> 00:16:40.399
00:16:40.399 --> 00:16:40.879
00:16:40.879 --> 00:16:56.639
00:16:56.639 --> 00:17:00.080
00:17:00.080 --> 00:17:05.119
00:17:05.119 --> 00:17:07.839
00:17:07.839 --> 00:17:10.559
00:17:10.559 --> 00:17:22.000
00:17:22.000 --> 00:17:28.559
00:17:28.559 --> 00:17:29.119
00:17:29.359 --> 00:17:30.640
00:17:31.440 --> 00:17:36.160
00:17:36.160 --> 00:17:49.680
00:17:49.680 --> 00:17:50.160
00:17:50.160 --> 00:18:07.519
00:18:07.519 --> 00:18:12.400
00:18:12.400 --> 00:18:16.799
00:18:16.799 --> 00:18:24.079
00:18:24.079 --> 00:18:26.079
00:18:26.079 --> 00:18:32.000
00:18:32.000 --> 00:18:35.359
00:18:35.359 --> 00:18:41.119
00:18:41.680 --> 00:18:45.680
00:18:45.680 --> 00:18:57.519
00:18:57.519 --> 00:19:02.160
00:19:02.160 --> 00:19:07.839
00:19:08.079 --> 00:19:11.440
00:19:11.440 --> 00:19:22.559
00:19:22.559 --> 00:19:28.960
00:19:28.960 --> 00:19:34.079
00:19:34.720 --> 00:19:42.319
00:19:42.319 --> 00:19:52.319
00:19:52.319 --> 00:19:58.079
00:19:58.079 --> 00:20:02.640
00:20:02.640 --> 00:20:06.640
00:20:06.640 --> 00:20:14.240
00:20:14.240 --> 00:20:27.119
00:20:27.119 --> 00:20:35.599
00:20:35.599 --> 00:20:37.200
00:20:37.200 --> 00:20:40.400
00:20:40.400 --> 00:20:51.519
00:20:51.519 --> 00:20:59.519
00:20:59.519 --> 00:21:03.759
00:21:04.319 --> 00:21:04.799
00:21:04.799 --> 00:21:07.680
00:21:07.680 --> 00:21:18.480
00:21:18.480 --> 00:21:42.319
00:21:42.319 --> 00:21:46.480
00:21:46.480 --> 00:21:55.440
00:21:55.440 --> 00:21:59.039
00:21:59.039 --> 00:22:04.559
00:22:04.559 --> 00:22:10.880
00:22:10.880 --> 00:22:12.640
00:22:12.640 --> 00:22:25.440
00:22:25.440 --> 00:22:28.079
00:22:28.079 --> 00:22:31.599
00:22:31.599 --> 00:22:36.880
00:22:36.880 --> 00:22:43.440
00:22:43.440 --> 00:22:44.799
00:22:44.799 --> 00:22:54.960
00:22:54.960 --> 00:23:09.039
00:23:09.839 --> 00:23:14.160
00:23:14.160 --> 00:23:26.640
00:23:26.640 --> 00:23:30.960
00:23:30.960 --> 00:23:38.799
00:23:38.799 --> 00:23:46.160
00:23:46.160 --> 00:23:53.440