Why They Chose Education

Principal JL 1:21

What does it take to lead at the highest levels of education and stay grounded in what matters most for students and staff? If you're a principal, district leader or educator who's serious about growing your leadership capacity, this is an episode you don't want to miss. Today I'm joined by two nationally recognized leaders who are not only shaping schools but shaping how we think about leadership itself. First up, we have Dr. Joseph Jones, superintendent of Newcastle County Vocational and Technical School District. From his start as a social studies teacher to lead in one of Delaware's premier districts, Dr. Jones has earned honors like he's secondary principal of the year in Delaware's Outstanding Academic Achievement Award. He's also a sought-after speaker and co-author of eight books in educational leadership. Alongside him, we have Dr. TJ Vari. He's a senior director of product and strategies at Maia Learning, where he's focused on helping students around the world navigate post-secondary success. Dr. Vari is a former deputy superintendent, principal, and English teacher, and an award-winning educator who continues to impact leadership development across the country. Together, they are the co-founders of TheSchoolHouse 302, a leadership development institute with an international footprint, helping leaders grow, think differently, and lead with purpose. In today's conversation, we're diving into their leadership journeys, what they've learned along the way, and how school leaders can elevate their impact in today's ever-changing educational landscape. Now let's get into the conversation with Dr. TJ Vari and Dr. Jones. Welcome back, everybody, to another exciting episode of the Educational Leadership Podcast. Today I am super excited to bring on the show Dr. Joseph Jones and Dr. TJ Vari. Doctors, welcome to the show. Thanks for having us. All right. So this is going to be a unique. I have two guests at the same time. And so we're going to kind of be bouncing these questions around. And so I'm going to go ahead and start with TJ. And then, Joe, you can answer the same question right behind him. So I'm going to ask you guys the same question, I ask everybody on the show. What inspired you to become an educator?

Dr. TJ Vari 3:58

Well, what originally inspired me to become an educator was the fact that I didn't have a really good time in school and I wanted school to be different. I wanted classroom instruction to be different. I wanted to be engaging. And I just wanted to be all around a better experience than the one I had. I then went into restaurant management for a stint before I came back to the classroom. And at the end of my time as a restaurant manager, I was turning restaurants around and really training managers to run restaurants. And I realized that I was teaching people again. And I wanted to do that for a for a more important cause than cheeseburgers and money, I always say. And so I went back to the classroom. That's kind of where Joe and our path started to cross because I went into a CTE only high school system to be an English teacher. And so I wanted to use the business experience, my English teaching background. And that's what inspired me to become an educator.

Dr. Joe Jones 4:57

Awesome. So mine actually, Jeff, I really didn't want to become an educator. And so I, you know, I know 30 years later you look back and I'm grateful I did. But I student-taught the way it worked. I went to the University of Delaware. I really was a history education major, but history was my primary major. And education was default because I wasn't sure what I would do with it. I thought maybe I'd pursue my master's in history and go go that route. But then I student-taught at a local, a local high school here in Delaware, William Penn High School, and I loved it. I loved everything about it and my student teaching experience. I always say if you partner the right student teacher with the right cooperating teacher, it can make or break the whole learning experience. And I just had Martha Cassis, who was my my cooperating teacher, and she was phenomenal. And so I had that wonderful experience. And it wasn't all rosy at all. And so, but I loved it. I loved the kids. And then from there, I figured, you know what, this isn't something like that's just a default experience for me or default profession. I have absolutely loved it. And from that point on, haven't looked back.

Teacher Lessons That Shaped Leadership

Principal JL 6:12

I think that's really great that you kind of bring that up, Joe, about the quality of your cooperating teacher is important. Because I know as a building principal, I want to make sure when I have a student teacher in my building, I'm giving them a really good cooperative teacher because I want them to have the best experience they can because we got to keep those people in education. Now, there are times where someone decides this isn't for me. And I actually had that this past semester where someone got in there and they're just like, Well, I I just this isn't, I'm not cut out for this. And that's fine. I'm like, I'm glad you figured it out. But I think that's important to realize that you know, having a really good cooperative teachers in those experiences help bring in the good people and keep them because if they have a bad experience, then you're gonna just chase them off. So I think that's really great that you brought that in. And then TJ, I kind of want to come back to you talking about being a restaurant manager, like having that experience. Like, I'm similar where I didn't become an educator right away, I actually was in the military, but then I did the Army Reserves for eight years, and then I was working in a factory position as well. One time I thought it was gonna be a youth passion, so there's a lot of different things I was trying out, but education is kind of what got me into that was coaching. So bringing that outside, you know, experience into education is also valuable because you can see things through a different lens and perspective because you've worked in other jobs than other than education. So I think you both bring really powerful uh perspectives into the work for sure. So, as teachers, what was it that you learned as a teacher that informed your leadership?

Dr. Joe Jones 7:58

TJ, absolutely. So it's a great question, Jeff, because I don't know if it's a moment, right? I think this is where evolution and your own personal development and growth really come into play. And so for me, it was it was seeing kids succeed. I I was fortunate enough to be placed as the department chair, now we call them team leads, my third year. But there were people on that department department that were far more qualified, but they said, you know what, Joe, you're you're young, you're hungry, you do it. But that actually changed the trajectory of my career because as the department lead, I was still learning from some incredible educators, but taking on early responsibilities. And charter schools were really starting to take a hold in the mid-90s in Delaware, and that was impacting us. So we had some high-level leadership conversations that I was privy to. AP classes were just starting to really take hold. I was privy to those. Were we going to start offering them at the school I was department, the training and so on? But you couple those experiences with really opening doors for students. And so I coached early on, I ran the weight room. But those leadership, those early leadership experiences, and then seeing students succeed when you can open doors, that is what helped me really make the determination I want to go into administration. I was like, if I can open a door for my kids in this class, what can I do for even more students? And really, that's been a through line throughout my whole career. Awesome.

Dr. TJ Vari 9:56

TJ For me, it's probably adult learning. Like I always loved teaching, and I taught in every way I could. You know, I taught during the day as an English teacher in a CTE program. I taught in the GED program at nighttime. I taught after school to both math and ELA students who were struggling to pass the state proficiency test. So I loved the teaching part. But when I was early as a teacher, there were some questions about professional development and the quality of it. And I took some thoughts to the principal of the school I was working at. And she said, Well, guess what? You're the I said, you know, here's some things I'm just thinking about that could improve the quality of adult learning. And she said, and guess what? You're the new professional development chair. And so I said, Well, who's on the committee? And she said, You have to form a committee, but we're not doing any PD until it comes through you and your team. And so I formed this team of people who cared about professional development and the growth of educators, and I really was able to participate and bring some things in and and and impact the quality of the experiences that the adults were having. And I hope that translated to just better teaching. And I've been, I fell in love with that. And ever since then, adult growth, adult professional development, teacher growth. I we know those things lead to stronger outcomes for kids. And so that's what Joe and I do all the time now as coach principals and and and even train teachers. But I early on, that's what brought me into administration.

The Admin Path And Systems Thinking

Principal JL 11:34

Awesome. So I want to get to that, right? Next, like you know, always we always have a background to where what got us in education, what did we learn as teachers? Like for me, it was figuring out a system, things that help things flow. And so, as a principal, I try to figure out systems to make things flow in my building. And so, with that in mind, I want you guys to talk about because you guys are hitting on those third things that kind of inspired you to become administrators. So, let's talk about your administrative background. You know, what was it that got you in it? What roles did you have as administrators? Because you guys did a few different roles, and what did you learn from each role? So I'm gonna go ahead, I'm gonna kick it off and start with TJ on this one and Joe's after that.

Dr. TJ Vari 12:21

So I'm a former deputy superintendent. I spent 10 years really building pathways and doing work-based learning and what I always say CTE iising, the academic pathways and academicizing, the CTE pathways. And now I work for Maya Learning. I'm the senior director of product strategy, and we do college and career planning and readiness worldwide. It's kind of like the piggyback from my previous role in the programs that I implemented and now helping districts do that across the states and in 70 countries. And I would say a lot of what I learned through being a deputy superintendent was about systems. Just you need, and Joe always says, anytime I'm like wheeling on something, he'll say, dude, you're a systems guy. We need to put a systems behind this. And so that's kind of like something that matters a lot. If you don't have a system for whatever it is you're trying to accomplish, it's those other random acts of trying to get it done just aren't going to work. Before that, I was a turnaround school principal at the middle level, and I learned a ton there. But really, I think creating a sense of urgency was important because when I got the job, they said they were gonna fire me and 50% of the staff if we didn't turn around the first year. And so that was critical. As an assistant principal, I learned a lot about student support, social and emotional learning, what counselors do. That was new to me. In fact, my first day on the job, I had an interventionist who was new, and she said, Well, what do we what do we do? And I said, We wait for the first kid to be bad. Because I didn't I didn't have that in my classroom, even in even in some of the schools that I worked in and and and so forth. I just never had issues with students until I saw issues with students in classrooms and hallways and and cafeterias. So we talked about my teaching experience, but that's kind of like the linear experience I had and then where I am now. Awesome. Jill.

Dr. Joe Jones 14:24

Yeah, so I think going back to systems real quick, you know, so many leaders think about, you know, their goals and their intentions, but you don't fall to your goals, you'll fall to your system. So system leadership is something that TJ and I harp on. And as a currently as a sitting superintendent, that's something we build in every facet, every division. It is our systems. And I think what happens when you start having systems in place, you want to be able to be removed from that position and it still run. And we talk about succession planning, but so often people think of personnel and people, and that's who's filling the job, but it's the system that's gonna let it run regardless. And the better the system, the better it'll actually function. So I've learned that though. And unfortunately, I can say, Jeff, I've learned that the hard way. Like I didn't think that 30 years ago. And I went through the track traditionally, I was a teacher for five years. My supervisor at the time, Dr. Cantley, tapped me on the shoulder. She was being asked to be the principal at a sister school, and I followed her. And at the time, I really didn't want to do it. She said to me, Joe, I really think you'd be a great assistant principal. And quote unquote, I said, I like kids too much. I saw that job as administrative heavy, you know, bureaucratic, disciplined, and not, you know, knee to knee in the classroom with kids, side by side, helping them learn. She convinced me otherwise. I was with her for four years, made a lateral move into the uh district I'm in now, which I say is important because I actually was offered a principalship that keep me in that district, but fell in love with the leadership that I'm in now, Newcastle County, Votech. And Dr. Gadaski eventually became the Secretary of Education in Delaware, was a phenomenal leader. And I think you have to listen, you know, really to yourself and have you know those moments of what do I really want here? Do I want a title or do I want fulfillment? Do I really want to make a difference? Made that lateral move. And then a year later, I was a principal of Dell Castle. And so I was a principal for seven years of that school, 1,500 students, vocational high school. Delaware is a little different. We're fully comprehensive vocational, so not share time model. We have full academics, full athletics, full CTE. And it's a phenomenal district. Then I was director of assessment accountability, and I say that's when nobody loved me. You know, so I went from being, you know, a race to the top principal. TJ and I were principals at the same time. We both had turnaround schools. We both were facing, you know, this reality of look, we're gonna cut cut your staff if you don't get it done. And I'm fortunate enough to say we got it done. That led to my role in uh assessment and accountability and data. I will say though, Jeff, it's interesting because Dr. Catley, who first tapped me on the shoulder, become assistant principal, is the first one to convince me to really start studying data to help her move the academic needle in that school. She sent me to SREB in like 2002. And so I got trained on a bunch of different things. That really helped me considerably, that early training. And then from there, I was fortunate enough to be named superintendent. Now I'm seventh year as a superintendent in this district. And I love every minute of it. Doesn't mean it's not, it doesn't have its fair share of challenges, I would say minute by minute, but it's it's these are terrific jobs, no days the same, and you're really changing lives.

Building TheSchoolHouse302 From Real Problems

Principal JL 18:05

I love both of your guys' story. It's all you know, like you guys have that background, you you know what it's like to sit in a seat, and I think that's really important. You know, people know that you've actually done the work, you know what it's like to do student discipline, you know what it's like to deal with teachers when they're coming in. Like, I feel like today I sat around and listened to a lot of teachers about a lot of different things, but that's my role. That's my job is to help the adults in my building so they can help the kids. And so I look at my role right now is to make sure my staff is supported, my teachers got what they need, so my students are supported by them. And it's you know, that's a systematic approach, or just you know, the trickle-down effect when you know, as a building leader, we all have our our roles, our our lanes, we all do our job and we work together to get the job done. So I appreciate uh you guys kind of talking through that. So, you know, with that, it's really cool to hear that you're still an acting superintendent, you're still doing some uh leadership within the schools, and then you guys also decided to create a company. And if I got it wrong, let me know. The the Schoolhouse 302. So you guys both co-founded that. Where did that come from? Like, where did this you know brain child came from? And how did it develop? And you know, what inspired you guys to create this company that you have?

Dr. Joe Jones 19:32

I would love to say that this was you know, over an adult beverage, and we had this great mastermind meeting, like, you know what, we're gonna build this company, but that just isn't the case, Jeff. Not even close. The truth is we were both turnaround principals, and you know, so many times educators are like, look, we're not talking about work. TJ and I were opposite. We're like, no, we're in the work, but we now had been in different systems while while we had worked together in the same system for a while. And we used to go on these runs. Delaware has beautiful trail running. And so we'd go to White Clay Creek and we'd run. And during those runs, you know, we would talk about some of the real challenges we were facing. Like you were saying, like you have teachers that are stressed out. So, how do you make sure that stress doesn't turn to burnout? And so that's a real difficult question. How do you keep your best teachers sharp? How do you keep your new teachers from not quitting? So we dealt with all of that, as well as how do we raise achievement? How do we get our kids to learn at a new level? So that those are tough answers to really find solutions or tough questions to find answers to. And then one day we're talking. I literally grabbed my phone out of my little my fanny pack that I used to run with. Don't make fun of me. And I said, dude, I'm gonna write down some of this. I think people would like to hear about this. And in 2015, we started a blog. And from that blog, that grew to a website, that grew to just different things. And we have our own podcast called Focus Ed. But it really started with us trying to solve answers to real problems we were facing, and then just acknowledge we could we could share this with other people, and we both had a desire to write. And so from there it just it just grew and continued. And now we're in our our 10th year, 11th year as a company, and then we're really excited on where where we're at.

Partnership Strengths And Servant Leadership

Dr. TJ Vari 22:15

A couple of a couple of broad strokes, I'll add. Joe always does a great job of describing the the origin story, but we built models through the right and runs. Those were long runs, Jeff. And we're talking sometimes eight, nine, 10, 12 miles. I don't think either one of us could do that today, but but at the time we were going on these long runs and we built models. And one of the first models we built was a teacher leadership model. And we built that because we were trying to turn a school around and we knew we couldn't do it just at the from the helm. There was no way we were gonna need teachers and they were gonna need to be strong leaders, not just a leadership team, but strong leaders on a team that could help turn a school around. So we built a teacher leadership model. In fact, a third of our first book, Candidate Compassionate Feedback, is dedicated to building teacher leaders, feedback for teacher leaders to help them grow. And there's a model in the book. Well, that model was our first ever presentation, and we did it at ASCD. And somebody in the room at the end of the presentation said, We need you to present that to our administrators. We said, Great. And they said, you know, later on, the business office called and said, You need a business license so that we can pay you. And that was that was really what started the business and also the book. But Joe's, you know, but before that is when we were running and trying to figure things out for ourselves.

Principal JL 23:45

So, where did the title of the name of the company School the Schoolhouse 302 come from?

Dr. Joe Jones 23:51

So 302 is Delaware's area code. We want to honor the first state, and we're proud Delawareans. People even originally were like, Well, do you think that'll limit you? We're like, absolutely not. And you know, just old school thinking around the schoolhouse. We're this is about learning. You know, we don't have all the answers. We love coming on shows. We love listening and learning. And that's what the schoolhouse 02 represents it's our origin, it's where we're from, but we're dedicated to teaching and learning. And really spread in the good word so we can advance education.

Principal JL 24:23

Awesome. So here's a question for you guys. And you have two people, two different leaders, maybe a little bit different. You guys have some similarities, but probably some differences too. So what makes it to where you guys complement each other to work through this business and to work together? And how do you guys complement each other in the work that you do today?

Dr. TJ Vari 24:43

I think there's a lot of facets of the organization and of who we are that complement one another, both in the writing and the development of leaders. It is a strong, like two major strong suits when we get in front of school leaders, either by through coaching, through group coaching, through keynotes, through leadership development institutes, is that we were both practitioners. We're both practicing in the field of education right now. The Schoolhouse 302 is not our full daytime work. We both have full-time jobs and work with school leaders all day. That resonates with people. We also compliment each other on the writing. Like we sometimes come at things from a different angle, but always to build a model that can be replicated by any one of our readers, whether it's the blog, the podcast, or one of our seven books. But I would say my background as a comprehensive school leader with 23 schools and 13,000 kids, 2,000 employees, and seeing and doing pre-K through adult education in a public, you know, comprehensive public school system. And I was over operations for a while as well and just seeing the different departments. And then Joe's system is a choice system, it's a vocational system, and it's countywide. So he can say more about that. But because we kind of have different flavors of the employee groups that we've worked with and the experience of just the system we're in, it really helps us to run the gamut when we present in front of schools and districts. I mean, we really presented recently in front of a group of Montessori school leaders from all around the world. And so, because of like I think some of Joe's background in choice, that was also some things we were going to able to answer some questions there. So, Joe, I don't know if you want to add anything else to that.

New Book On Instructional Leadership

Dr. Joe Jones 26:34

Just from a personality, you know, I think Jeff, both of us have the desire to learn and grow, but we come at things differently. We have two very different personalities. Like you said, there's definitely similarities. But I will say what has made this work and will help us moving forward, one, you got to let your ego go. We always say that ego edges greatness out. So let your ego go. And we have pretty tough skin. Both of us can go at each other pretty hard, especially with our writing. We had a co-author one time on a book, and the individual even said, I'm not sure this is gonna work out because we're gonna be brutal, but it depends on what you want. I mean, we're not we're not living in a day and age where we can, you know, really dance around the tough issues and the problems. So I would say the fact you got to leave your ego at the door, you know, and then from there you have to be willing to tough skin and have thick skin. And no point is it ever derogatory or is it meant to diminish, it's always meant to elevate. And I think if you can keep that front and center and really like embody servant leadership, you know, you mentioned it, Jeff, early on, you know, your through line, whether it's it's whether it's with the Army Reserves, whether it's youth pastor and now in education, that's service, you know. So that's the through line. So as long as you maintain that servant leadership mindset, willingly put others before yourself, it can work. But yeah, can we get on each other's nerves? Can I say stuff that will get you know teachers like, come on, like of course, you know. But look, at the end of the day, we're trying to do right for kids and teachers and leaders. So as long as you keep that in the forefront, it can eclipse any of the challenges might experience.

Principal JL 28:20

Awesome. Well, thank you guys for sharing that. So, you guys have written quite a few books, I think seven at this time, and I know you guys got a project coming up that's getting ready to launch. You guys are doing some pre-sales right now, but gonna launch it. So, kind of talk about this new project, the new book you guys got coming out. What inspired it? What gap are you guys trying to fill? And then what are some big takeaways you want educational leaders to gain from your guys' newest project? Terry, you want to go first?

Dr. Joe Jones 28:55

Yeah, TJ can talk about the architecture book. I think he does a really great job. It's it's time, tools, and tactics of instructional leadership. And I think that's just where we are now. And I think with TJ and I, this is the culmination of 10 years together. It's not like an anniversary book in any way. However, it is a compilation of what we've learned and some of the models that have truly resonated within our own systems and then others that we've worked with. And like one of those models, you know, we often talk about is specific praise. And so with praise, you know, people do it, they just don't do it well. TJ famously always says that, you know, you'll have a CEO or principal, anyone in charge that says, Look, I do praise great, and I praise 80% of the time. And then you'll have people say, Look, I now 80% of the people say I never get praise. You know, so there's definitely a disconnect, and that disconnect is how we deliver it. I'll say also that we're living in a day and age, whether it's like a Hattie's Meta X and a lot that's been done through Corwin and the work. We know what works. There's been so many advances in neuroscience and leadership. This book puts this together in a practical way that a reader, an administrator at the school or district level could read it and do it next, you know, zero, you know, zero time wasted. I can implement that. And that was our goal with it. So, culmination of our experiences, a culmination of what's worked, but really we wanted it to be turnkey. Principals don't have time to waste. So the models are designed for you to follow and then help that with a little bit of a crutch, if you will, until you truly, truly get used to it to become second nature, and then you're running with it. TJ.

Time Blocking And Reverse Time Blocking

Dr. TJ Vari 30:47

Yeah, sure. The I mean, Joe did a great job with that explanation. I'll just hit on the time, tools, and tactics. There are three, three, and three for a total of nine strategies. There's far more takeaways than that, but there are nine models in the book that can be used right away. And we unwrap those models for leaders to be able to really see them practically, how they can implement that, what they can, what they need to do right away. We know that instructional leadership is important. We know that the only way to move the needle in a school is to be an instructional leader for the teachers and for the culture and for the students, but we also know it's not a reality. Almost every district that we've been working with since the first book we wrote, Candidate Compassionate Feedback, has been about instructional leadership, about school culture, and about school improvement. All seven of our books are positioned in that way. And when we've done the institutes, we've done the training, we've done the coaching, we built the models in the last 10 years. This book was simply inevitable. It had already surfaced in a way that was helping school leaders. We just needed to package it all together. And since this was a candid and compassionate feedback, it was a Routlich book, this one has a home at Routlich as well. We had talked to them about writing somewhat of a sequel. I mean, it's not really a sequel to candid and compassionate feedback, but it is a little bit of a, I would say, a continuum that we wrote that book and then we trained on it for a decade, and then we produced produced this one with all the practical strategies that you can put in place. And we know they work. They're not just research based because we did the research for the book, they're evidence-based because we've seen them work and we've seen the the outcomes and we've seen happier, more effective teachers and student outcomes go up.

Principal JL 32:40

So without giving the whole book away, what are maybe a couple of models you guys can hit to kind of entice people to kind of know what's going on in your book there?

Dr. TJ Vari 32:50

I'll Joe, I think time blocking and reverse time blocking is one that we start the book with time because principals find we know and we coach principals and we we realize they're stuck in operations and management. So, how do you find the time to get into classrooms, which are the most important spaces in your school? We also know that once they get to classrooms, that's not good enough. And so some we have look like ways to build look fors and the feedback models. So, like the book is linear. But one of the things we start with is time blocking and reverse time blocking. And your audience will probably know a lot about time blocking, which is just putting the major things on your calendar that you want to get done in the day, the week, the month. But we take it a step further with reverse time blocking, where minute by minute you're carrying your phone throughout the day, especially assistant principals and principals who are getting one-minuted to death. They're on their way to do that walkthrough and something happens and their walkie-talkie goes off. They're on the way to do that walkthrough, and a teacher stops and says, Do you have a minute? And we realize that we can't have this conversation in the hallway. We're back in the office 25 minutes later, and the walkthrough didn't get done. Well, that 25 minutes needs to then go on to the calendar in a reverse time blocking scenario so that your day from whenever you start your day to the whenever you end your day is in all filled with all the things you actually did, even if it's pushing the trash can around in the cafeteria. That way that you have at the end of the day and end of the week a tool to reflect on. And that's what's missing for a lot of leaders, because I guarantee there's three, five, or seven things that are recurring on your calendar that are taking up a lot of your time, preventing you from being an instructional leader. And you can't even name what those things are because you haven't documented them. But as soon as we have them documented, we're really good, Jeff, at solving problems in the moment. I have met so many assistant principals and principals who are phenomenal at solving problems in the moment. But it's they solve all those problems in the moment, and all the moments are gone. And so we need to create systems so that those problems don't recur. And we teach that strategy, we break it down in the book, and all of the other strategies that we offer, they're broken down in a simplistic way for school leaders to put them into practice.

Pressure Support To Grow Teachers

Principal JL 35:17

Awesome. I really kind of like that reverse blocking. I already do the blocking because I'm like going, because right now I'm in the middle of doing evaluation, so I block out, and my administrative assistant knows when I have that blocked out, I'm not to be bothered. I mean, I shut my radio off. I have a system principal, so it's not like you know, the school's off on its own by itself. But at the same time, you know, I make sure like my meetings are blocked out, but I never thought about just putting down everything I've done throughout the day because there's a lot of things you do that you don't put on the calendar just to give yourself an idea what you have done. And maybe you can find ways to save time that way. I don't know, but that's what I kind of what I was thinking through my head on that when you were talking about that.

Dr. TJ Vari 36:00

It's huge, I guarantee the same five students, teachers, parents, support staff, the same five problems, the the carpet, they're the they're recurring, and you don't know they're recurring because you've got three hours in your day that's unaccounted for. And at the end of the day or week, I say, What'd you do during those three hours? And you say, I don't remember. I was busy.

The Future Of Education And Coaching Principals

Dr. Joe Jones 36:26

Yeah, TJ and I always say that like if you have an accurate calendar, show me your calendar and I'll show you your priorities. And so when that lands, people don't realize, look, I'm working hard every day, and I don't know if I'm driving towards the mission and vision. And so that has to happen. And that the only way to do that is accurately audit. The other one I was going to mention, real quick, Jeff, is we this is near and dear to my heart. We have a pressure support model. I don't have to belabor the point, but in a day and age in which we're trying to keep teachers and recruit teachers in a profession at sea, and less and less people enter, you know, it's important. How do you raise the stakes? How do you really coach people up, have a standard for them to hit, but not force them out the door when they could just clock out and go somewhere else. And so we spent a lot of time in a book on how do you offer pressure in a positive way, healthy stress, you know, use stress, not distress. And so from there, build them up and really get them to a level of mastery, uh mastery teaching. And so that's a big part of the book and one that I truly love and appreciate.

Principal JL 37:41

Awesome. Well, I think those are a couple of really good ideas that people can really, you know, sink their teeth into uh when the book comes out and you know, be able to get excited about. So thank you guys for sharing that. And so we've talked a lot today uh about your guys' journey, kind of about the company, kind of guys, what you're up to. But uh, this is this question I like to ask because you know, in the day of age, you hear a lot of negativity about education. And so I want to know what excites you most about the future of education.

Dr. TJ Vari 39:05

Go ahead, Joe.

Dr. Joe Jones 39:07

In my space, and this can sound maybe a little narrow on how people would think about this, but as a superintendent, you know, my whole world, which is a little different, I think, from a lot of superintendents, is workforce development. And I I see it that way. And so for us, what I get excited about is how do I marry what we're doing in our district to what the workforce needs? And so, you know, everybody's talking about AI now and innovation. Well, how do I prepare our students to live in that world and not just survive it, but to excel in it? And what does that mean for educators? How do we transform classrooms that really develop critical thinking? How do we get to a point where we're not asking kids to just write five paragraph essays and we're looking to get things published? You know, and so that is a different lens. And that's the world we're in right now. In my perspective, we are really producing students for the workforce, and we just need a strong workforce. That's always excited me as an educator is thinking where students go. But as I've really, this is my 30th year in education, it's actually narrowed very much, shockingly, like where you would think after years and years, you would think much broader. I think, how do I have a school district that prepares our students to work and through thrive in our county and in our state and our region? Granted, they can go and do whatever they want, right? That there are no boundaries, and we don't place any limitations or boundaries. When we talk about next steps, that's how we word it. What is what are your next steps post-K-12? You know, we don't, it can be higher ed, it might be the workforce, it might be the military. All of that to be said, how are you going to contribute to your eventually a meaningful life where you feel fulfilled, your family is taken care of, and you're just doing the very best you possibly can do. And I think that all gets narrowed down to workforce.

Dr. TJ Vari 41:15

Yeah, I'm as excited about that as well, Jeff. I think that's school transformation, what's happening in the classroom, transferring those skills and making sure that those skills are usable in college and career. I would say college and career readiness, career and college readiness. So it's this, it's the same thing. Life readiness is what Joe's talking about. Making sure that the classroom environment is set up, not just to get math, science, social studies in ELA, but to get those transferable skills, career-connected learning, profession-based learning, work-based learning, internships for kids, lessons that are designed around learning about yourself, learning about your environment, learning about who you might be, not just taking a test or writing a five-paragraph essay, as Joe said. And we alluded to it earlier, but the other thing that I'm super excited about from both a teaching perspective and a leadership perspective, and Joe and I do a lot of work with this. We know what makes an impact. We know how to lead a school. We know the simple strategies that can be put in place to drive improvements in a school. We also know a lot more about how learners learn and what they need to retain information in the classroom and how the brain works. And so we need to change teaching and leading, and we're moving in a really solid direction with that. I will say I do believe, though, that every principal needs a coach. We want every principal to be an instructional leader for the teachers, but we think every principal needs a coach. And the way I phrase it is that every kid in every school deserves for their principal to have a coach. It's the only way we're going to get to a place where the principals know what they're doing from day to day and they're helping the teachers on that path as well.

Advice For Aspiring School Leaders

Principal JL 43:09

So what I'm hearing you say, principals get out of your silo. 100%. Yeah. So yeah, and I and I agree with that. Like when I started to be a, I'm in my eighth year as being a principal right now, 19th year in education. And so when I started, I was out in the middle of South Central Nebraska in a cornfield, you know, miles away from a lot of other people. And I was lucky, I had a superintendent. I had an assistant principal, 80, and is also an elementary principal in our district. But we're a K-12 district, I was a 712 principal. But even then, you know, there's times where you felt like, am I doing the things right? You know, you just to have somebody to go talk to. So I networked to where I would talk to people that were in the seats and what did they do and learn from that. And then I think through just wanting to learn more, I started listening to podcasts. Like my first podcast that I listened to was leading into leadership with Darren Peppard, Dr. Darren Peppard. And so I was like, oh, that's pretty good. And then I decided, hey, I'll start my own podcast. That's kind of where this is for leaders that may be out in the boot, you know, the the you know, the rural areas that may not have access to things all the time, but they can have they can flip on the podcast, learn something, maybe connect with you guys, maybe get that coaching that they desperately need on that. Because I think having people to talk to and to get coached up is really important. I've had people that in my life that helped me out and coached me up, and so I think you know that is something. If you need that, they don't train you, you know, they they give you ideas what it's gonna be like, but you don't know until you're actually in the job. Um especially you can do all the schooling you want, but until you actually sit in the seat and do the job, and that's just a little bit different than you know going through theories and what might work, what might not work. But I appreciate you guys are giving people time tested, evidence-based things you've seen work, strategies to people like right away. And I really appreciate that you guys are doing that. And so I applaud you guys on the work that you guys are doing. And so with that, you know, what advice? I know you kind of talked about it, maybe what advice would you give people that are aspiring to be leaders? Like maybe they're in that teacher leadership role and they're thinking about that assistant principalship, or I'm an assistant principal thinking about that principalship, or principal thinking about that superintendency. What advice would you give those people moving forward?

Dr. TJ Vari 45:43

I would say two things. I would say get your hands on anything you can. If you haven't gone back to school for that master's or that doctorate degree, that's a clear next step. That's simple. Do that, do it today. Go look at the program, apply. If you can get on a committee, the bigger the committee you can get on. I don't mean the bigger the group, I mean the like the larger the impact. If you're in a school, get on a district committee. If you're in a district, get on a state committee. And then that second part, Joe and I were both at one point presidents of the Delaware Association of School Administrators. I think Joe's taking his second, second stint on that. But like getting to the state level, like a lot of district leaders, they or even school leaders, they make their way up by going from the school to the district, but we need to go from the district to the state and even from the state to the nation, right? So there are, we're both on national think tanks for everything from CTE to school leadership. And so I would say get involved in everything you possibly can. And then the second thing is readers or leaders are readers. The average CEO reads 60 books a year. I would try to read as many books on leadership and school leadership as you possibly can. Just become a complete sponge. Podcasts, deep dives into different topics, and to become a subject matter expert in as many things related. Related to school as possible.

Principal JL 47:09

Great advice. Joe, you have any more to add to that?

Dr. Joe Jones 47:13

Yeah, I'll take it. Well, everything TJ's talking about is growth, right? In some way, the experience or growth. I'll take this in three lanes. The first is most people want things to change in order for them to be better. The way things change is for actually for us to get better. So you have to invest in yourself. And that's everything with what TJ just said. However, you do that, but the way you'll get more skilled and life gets easier, in my opinion, and not with less challenges, but your perspective, your approach, the way you deal with things is you becoming the best version of yourself. And I think that is first and foremost. But then I'll say that there's a couple other ways to really grow. One, TJ and I just had the privilege of interviewing Martin Dubin, who wrote a book called Blind Spotting. And in that book, a lot of it is about self-awareness. Why do you want to become an administrator? You have to be able to answer that question clearly with conviction because these jobs are tough. I mean, I've torn my trapezius, breaking up a fight. I have horror stories just like everyone else. And I don't share any of that lightly. And that was years ago. I don't, I don't, thankfully, I'm not doing cafeteria duty much anymore, although I'm not opposed to it. But things happen, you know, in every day. There people are facing student walkouts right now with ice and all that. It is tough. This is a tough job. So you have to be convicted on why you're doing this. That will eclipse the hard days. If not, you'll start wondering, did I make the right choice? The last thing I'll say so, you know, grow, focus on yourself as most important to grow, self-awareness, and then exposure. TJ talked about getting involved in different organizations. I think that's very powerful. I was in one of our schools today doing walkthroughs with an assistant principal. We go around, walk through, and really I ask one question after what do you see? And we calibrate. It's really not even what we see in the classroom, it's to ensure our instructional leadership is calibrated, superintendent to assistant principal. And so when I was walking around, one of our admin interns that's a part of our internship program was walking around with the student advisor. And the student advisor, I went up, he's he's phenomenal, and this intern is phenomenal. And I said, Hey, what's going on? And I said, I'm I'm walking around with Roan. I'm getting as much exposure to what it's like to be a disciplinarian, to be in a student advisor in and out of classrooms. What do you do? And the power in that is I think some people think, oh, it's processing paperwork, it's looking at the video cameras. That all entails. But what Ron said to me in the hallway, he's like, look, we're walking around, we're getting the beat. What's the beat of the school right now? And you can't sometimes learn that anyway, but doing it and learning from one of the best. And I would say he is one of the best. You can feel the pulse of a classroom, you can feel the energy in a cafeteria. You have to learn those things. And the best way to do it is get out there and get those experiences in the building. If you really want to become an administrator, sit in sit in guidance, have a tough conversation with a student who might not be passing a class and might not fail uh be able to graduate. You know, like those, those are the type of experiences you have to have and you have to learn them. And then you can decide, you know what, this is for me, and this is why it's for me. And I'm encouraged by that. And I think we need great leaders in education. And so you ask me what excites me. And I said earlier that the one thing about work-based learning, but I've met some incredible teachers of late that are really aspiring to become the best teacher in the classroom or the best administrator they can be.

How To Connect And Final Takeaways

Principal JL 51:08

Awesome. I love those perspectives. I really like the you talked about, you know, your personal growth. Because if you know anything about John Maxwell's The Law of the Lid, you can't lead at a certain capacity unless you, you know, you know, go above that. You grow yourself. You can only lead from what you've done and what you are able or the capacity that you have. And so in order to lead better better, you need to, you know, grow yourself, read books, listen to podcasts, you know, get your guys' new book coming out soon to learn some more strategies. I think those are all all great things and a lot of great, you know, advice there for people that are listening today, they're thinking about those steps. So, and I really like the getting involved more than just your local area, but get into like Nebraska, we're broken up into regions, then the state, and then the national. And so, like for me, I am actually a uh president elect of my region. You know, I'm looking to make steps up. That's kind of like my next step. I'm getting more into educational, educational advocacy of my state to where I'm paying attention more to the legislation because I'm tired of stupid laws they're passing. So I want to be able to go be a proponent or opponent and testify in front of our state legislators if the need comes. So I'm being more vigilant on those things and learn about those things. So those are like like things I'm trying to do because I've done these things and I'm just building that. So I really like the fact that he talked about getting involved at the state level and the national level, because not a lot of people, you know, even think that's a thing they can do, but it's not that hard. It's really just going out, meeting people, and you know, just just being involved in those conversations to do that because they they need people up the top in those leadership roles, just like they need lead people in your district to be leaders as well. So appreciate your guys' advice on that. All right, we've had a lot of things we've talked about today. And so before we go, is there anything else you guys would like to tell the audience before we cut you guys loose?

Dr. TJ Vari 53:20

I would just say connect with us. I mean, we really want to help school leaders to lead better and grow faster, is our tagline. And so connect with us. You can you can find us at theschohouse302.com. You can contact us at contact at theschoolhouse302.com. It's all one word, the schoolhouse302. We can talk about the books that we've written, we can talk about the keynotes that we provide, we can do one-to-one coaching. We build mastermind groups so that there's a limited series that people are getting, and we can do that locally. We can do that with a school district. And so please reach out. We're both on LinkedIn. I'm on LinkedIn almost every day, maybe every day. I love LinkedIn. I think it's a great place to connect. And so just find us at theschohouse302.com, connect with us at LinkedIn, and we would love to have a conversation with anybody about school leadership and bettering the school system that you're in.

Dr. Joe Jones 54:21

The last thing I'll mention, Jeff, and uh TJ just did a nice job with what we offer and so on, is touch points. You know, my last, you know, I guess thought for the evening is, you know, when you're out there, you know, just connect, connect with kids, connect with adults, you know, go out there and just this is a people business. And the more you can build these relationships, the more we'll thrive in public education. And I do feel like there's a lot of challenges out there right now, specifically in public ed. But the more you make those connections, the more you have those touch points, the more you realize how important educators are. And we really are the heartbeat of our communities. So just keep doing that. And I think people will wake up to say, you know what, we we really need our school systems thriving. So we need to support them more versus dumping on them more.

Principal JL 55:14

Awesome. I really appreciate your guys' uh perspectives on everything and all the ways to get connected with you guys. I'll put that in the show notes that you guys mentioned, as well as provide a link for your guys' book that's gonna be coming out soon. And so no matter when they listen to this, they'll be able to have access to you guys and be able to look at all the great work that you guys are doing. So I love having you guys on the show today. TJ and Joe, I appreciate you guys, all the work you're doing. I'm gonna go ahead and see you guys later. Have a great night. Thank you. What a powerful conversation with Dr. Joseph Jones and Dr. TJ Vari. There's so much to take away from their leadership journeys to the practical ways they're helping leaders grow through their work with The Schoolhouse 302. What stands out to me the most is leadership isn't about having all the answers, it's about continuously growing, reflecting, and showing up better each day. If you found value in this episode, make sure you connect with Dr. Jones and Dr. Vari and check out their books, especially their newest book coming out on April 22nd, 2026. Tools and tactics of instructional leadership, principles, a guide to leading learning. If this episode challenged your thinking or gave you something actionable, share it with another leader who needs to hear it. And don't forget to subscribe to this podcast so you don't miss another powerful episode like this one. As always, remember to be the change by being curious and 1% Better.