Episode 205: The Leadership Journey with Jimmy Casas

Darrin Peppard (00:01.07)

All right, my friends, welcome back into the Leaning Into Leadership podcast. This is episode 205. And man, I know I say this often, but I am genuinely excited about today's conversation. Jimmy Casas is one of those leaders who has truly shaped how we think about culture and leadership in our schools. From his bestselling book, Culture Eyes, to his work coaching school leaders across the country, Jimmy continues to make a major impact.

education and in this episode we dig into his personal journey from a future in the FBI to volunteering in schools leading one of the best high schools in the country and now helping leaders discover who they want to be and how to lead with purpose. We talk about leadership identity, the trap of the superhero syndrome, and the power of slowing down to lead with intention.

Now as always, this episode is brought to you by Road to Awesome, where I help school leaders and leadership teams gain clarity, get aligned, and be intentional with their work. And if you're looking to bring high impact training or coaching to your team, let's talk. Head over to roadtoawesome.net, reach out and set up a conversation with me. Now, let's get into this conversation with my friend, Jimmy Casas.

Darrin Peppard (00:01)

All right, everybody, welcome back into the Leaning Into Leadership podcast. You know, I say it frequently here on the show, but I genuinely am excited about today's conversation. The opportunity to sit down and have a conversation with Jimmy Casas is definitely one that I've been looking forward to here on the podcast. So without belaboring that without going on, I'll just simply say, Jimmy, welcome into the Leaning Into Leadership podcast.

Jimmy Casas (00:27)

Hey Darren, thank you so much. I'm super jazzed for today. It's good to see you again. I like I just saw you last week. So hey, thank you so much for the opportunity. I'm looking forward to the conversation.

Darrin Peppard (00:33)

Yeah.

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And, you know, when we, when we recorded together for, your podcast here recently, you, told a quick story and I'm going to kind of now tell it from, from my perspective. So we've been connected for quite some time. And finally in November at AMLE in Nashville, we had the opportunity to actually meet in person. didn't get to spend much time together, but then of course, the next day you and I ended up.

speaking back to back in the same room, which was pretty cool. definitely it was great to finally meet with you in person, but certainly we've had plenty of conversations. We've had a lot of connections, but I'm stoked to just sit down and talk a little bit of school leadership with you today.

Jimmy Casas (01:23)

me too. Yeah, I remember that right. I think I was coming around the corner. had my headphones in. was on my way to the gym and I, you know how it is. You just see something and you see them out of, like not in the place you think you're going to see them and it catches you off guard just for a second. I'm like, wait a second. I think that was done pepper. So I turned around and came back and I just went up and tapped you like, Hey, like, Hey, that was really weird. Yeah, but it was cool.

Darrin Peppard (01:40)

Yeah, yeah, yeah, I was glad

that you did. Because, you know, again, it's been a long time coming for us to, you know, make that that in person connection. And certainly I value that that's so much so, you know, I'm very confident that the listeners here on Leaning Into Leadership know who you are. But maybe I don't know, share a couple of things about yourself that maybe people should know, or maybe even some things they don't know about you.

Jimmy Casas (01:48)

Yeah. Yeah, so.

Yeah, well, let's see. Well, I kind of fell into the education world, right? Like I was set to, I shared this with before, was set, my world was set on going into the FBI at one point in my life. And unfortunately at the very end, things did not quite turn out the way I was hoping they would turn out. But you know how life takes you in a journey where it's taking you in. I took that as an opportunity to actually volunteer in a school. was actually at that time managing a bar.

I just finished my graduate degree and I was managing a bar and just started doing some volunteer work because I was really just working nights. So during the day I was kind of bored sometimes like, I should do something. I know I'm going to age myself but back then I actually literally opened up the paper looking at the Juan ads and seeing this advertisement for something like for some volunteer hours to work in an ESL program in elementary school. So thought, maybe I'll check that out. ESL, that's pretty cool.

went in there, did that, was literally two hours a week, turned into four hours a week, turned into a day a week, turned into two days a week, and I just really loved doing it and kind of fell into teaching at that moment. So yeah, that's the career path that took me. I started my career in Milwaukee Public Schools as a middle school teacher and then eventually took a principalship in Milwaukee, which led to myself and my family moving back to Iowa and finished my career in Iowa, 22 years as a principal altogether, and left the principalship, which is

once again hard to believe it's already going to be almost eight years here in August because I fell into this world, right? I into this world where I was blessed that I had some opportunities to speak and it went really well for me but really the thing, the game changer for me was the fact that when I was still a principal I wrote the, Culture Eyes, right? And never in my wildest dreams did I ever think that that book would really just change my life in so many ways and I'll always be grateful to Dave Burgess and

forgive me an opportunity and for reaching out. yeah, so anyway, so just here we are eight years later and that has turned in from speaking and to what I love to really do now and that is to coach and to teach principles because that's what I felt like I never had and I wished I would have had that when I went into the profession. So yeah, so that's where we end up.

Darrin Peppard (04:17)

Yeah,

yeah, for sure. Yeah. No, I love that. I'm always curious about people's origin stories. Um, I think, you know, it's, it's so rare that you actually run into somebody who went into teaching because that's what they wanted to do from the time they were a little kid. And I think so often it's one of my favorite things to do. Uh, when I do work with a staff group, um, or even just a group of, of, of leaders is, you know, let's dig into your origin story.

you how did, how did you get here? I started as a physical therapy major. I wanted to be a high school trainer. I, and this dates me a little bit too, but you know, as a sophomore in high school, I'm in the training room, the day after Thanksgiving, you know, for a Thanksgiving practice, I'm doing some, I don't know, rehab on my knee or my ankle or whatever the heck it was. And Doug Flutie throws the miracle pass to Gerard Phelan. Yeah.

Jimmy Casas (04:48)

Okay.

Yeah, Boston College, baby.

Darrin Peppard (05:14)

Yeah.

Boston college beat, beat Miami on the last play of the game. And that game was on the TV in the training room. And like, that was my, Hey, I want to be a physical therapist because trainer John's got a cool job and he's got a TV in his office. And, and, know, so, so yeah, not, not exactly the best way to choose a career, but, got asked to help coach a basketball team. And that turned into

This is, this is what I want to do. I think that's fantastic. I'm curious. Let's, let's talk about that transition from, being a teacher to becoming an administrator. Was there somebody who tapped you on the shoulder? Was it something you felt like, wow, I want to go do that. Like how did you find that calling?

Jimmy Casas (05:40)

Yeah.

Yeah, I kind of fell into it again, right? I was a classroom teacher and I was blessed because I had an assistant principal and a principal that for whatever reason saw some potential in me. I had just started my teaching career. I was one semester into it, not even a semester into it, when they encouraged me, hey, have you ever thought about going into school leadership? Now, if I'm being completely transparent, I was also in the inner city. I was in a high population of minority populated student school, most of those being Latinos.

and the fact that they felt as a Latino that perhaps because they didn't have a lot of Latino administrators at that time. is way back in the early 90s. I'm in Milwaukee Public School systems. There's 191 schools and there just aren't a lot of administrators that are Latino that are in that role. And so I'm always grateful that they encouraged me to do that. And I'll be honest, Darren, I was like, jeez, I just, I really don't want to go back to school right now. I just want to, I'm just starting a new job and.

But they just kept nudging me and said, hey, just go check it out. This is really awesome. Here's a lady. She's awesome. And I went and met with her. And my god, she was amazing there. And I was so impressed. And that was my first lesson really into. I remember showing up on this campus literally around 4.30 in the afternoon. And I had an appointment with her to meet with her, talk about grads program to go into leadership. But she literally spent 90 minutes with me.

walking the campus, just talking to me, asking me a bazillion questions about why school leadership, know, the challenges that come with it, the blessings that come with it. But I'm going to tell you, I was just inspired by her and I thought, I told her that day, said, I will sign up if you allow me to, but I want to have you as one of my professors. And she goes, that won't be a problem because I'm actually your first entry into the program, I'll be teaching your first class. And man, it was awesome.

Nancy Blair, wherever you're at right now, kudos to you my friend, love you, and you inspired me to go into Ed leadership. So yeah, it's awesome.

Darrin Peppard (07:55)

I love that. That's really cool. Mine, was my second year when I got the tap on the shoulder, my first principal. you know, still to this day, I mean, it's amazing how those people will, you know, cross your path and, I mean, stay with you. And you'll always remember, you know, how much of an impact they left on you. I think, I mean, I really think that's a big piece about leadership, right, is

Jimmy Casas (07:57)

Yeah.

Yeah.

Darrin Peppard (08:21)

It's not necessarily just the day in day out stuff that we do as leaders, but it's that making an impact on others and growing and finding and grooming other leaders to go on and do that same work. And I know you've certainly had a lot of different opportunities to do that. And you mentioned culture. I do want to talk about that for a couple of minutes.

I kind of I kind of have a flow in my head of where I think I'm going to take this. We'll see if that's actually where we go. I have no idea. But that's OK. So you were kind of saying and we were talking just before we hit the record button, culture rises coming up on turning eight. And it's kind of amazing. You know, I remember reading that book as a high school principal and thinking, you know, man, you know, and of course, I'm a big culture guy, too. And there are just so many pieces there that I've

Jimmy Casas (08:49)

huh.

Darrin Peppard (09:15)

that I absolutely clung to and felt so strongly about. Go back to kind of maybe that beginning piece. You mentioned Dave Burgess in DVC and Dave reaching out and you writing that book, but what was kind of maybe the genesis of all of that? What made you say, man, I really want to write this book?

Jimmy Casas (09:38)

Yeah, I'll be honest at the time it was because David reached out just indicating to me, because I'll be honest, was like, Dave, I can't write a book. I come on. I don't have that in me, right? And he kept saying, yes, you do. Write your story. Tell your story. Write like you talk. And part of it was I was writing a blog at the time, and I was encouraged to write that blog by George Kuros, who would kind of challenge me to start blogging. But when Dave read that, he said, Jimmy, I'm telling you, man, your story resonates. I love your writing.

I love your stories, I love your impact, I love how practical it is, but I love where you write from, And so he said, just write that book. I said, you know, and eventually I said, okay, I'll give it a shot. But at the end of the day, really what it was really just trying to tell a story of just some of the experiences that I had, you know, certainly starting off early as a young administrator, not being equipped to do that job, to be honest with you.

Doing the best that I could finding myself in situations at times where I'm asking myself. What am I doing here? You know, we you know the imposter syndrome Whatever you want to call it, but really just not ready for that feeling like I didn't necessarily have the support And then part of it also when you finally, know when you initially go and you go in with this confidence, right? You have this fire you're ready to go change the world and and then the job just starts messing with you a little bit, right? You start having these experiences and you struggle through it a little bit

And then I tried to be pretty honest about this. I just kind of landed what I call on the perimeter, right? Which basically meant like I was frustrated with the outcomes, but what I couldn't see is I was causing those outcomes, right? I was frustrated with everybody else, but didn't recognize that my behavior was also contributing to those frustrations. And what you learn, it's easier to live on that perimeter, but it's also very dangerous because the problem is I picked up bad habits where I'd go to school, get frustrated with what was happening, blame them for the results.

But then you also go home and you kind of stay on the perimeter, right? And so it just becomes part of who you are. And I realized very quickly I didn't like who I was becoming, but now you're into it a little bit. so, but luckily I was blessed with some individuals in my life who helped me and helped me find my way back. That's what I call it, right? Helped me find my way back. But cultureized was written from the idea from a behavior framework standpoint. Like how does our behavior contribute to the behavior of others in the organization?

And what if we were all to reflect on our own behavior? But before we do that, don't we have to really reflect on, who am I? And more importantly, who do I want to be? And I realized I wasn't the person I wanted to be. I had become something else, right? Like this idea of going to work and almost like I didn't like it because when I'd go there, I was somebody else that I didn't like. So how do we get ourselves out of that? Well, at the end of the day, there were some people who helped me see the...

Help me find my way back and convince me, Jimmy, you are contributing to some of these frustrations you're having. You don't see it. And that was probably the biggest takeaway I took from it, is that there were three takeaways. One, that people were willing to invest time in me to help me understand my story and to try to navigate, well, how do we help this young man come back? But the fact that they believed in me, that they were willing to invest time in me, and more importantly, the willingness to say, I'm not asking you to do this by yourself, we'll support you along the way.

But our job is to help you see what you don't see. And that's what I try to do today, Darren, in the work that I do. I try to help people see what they don't see. That's my job as a coach and observer, someone who stands on the outside. But to be able to do that without judgment, be able to do that without criticism, recognizing that these people actually want to be really good at what they do. So how do we help these individuals? So take the practicality of it today. If a teacher can see a child through a different lens,

and really believe that it would be merchant of hope, core principle number four, culture. I really believe that this child wants to be great. They can see that first. That's a shift in a mindset, correct? So at first I have to see that child differently. Not see him as a kid who doesn't want to be here. Not see as a kid who's causing me problems and causing me issues in this district. So I'm not going to see that kid that I'm going to see a kid who actually wants to be successful, but is for whatever reason lost her way long before they ever landed in my classroom. Core principle number one.

Well, then my job is number one, not to quit on that child, but to understand where is that behavior coming from? Why is that child so frustrated? Why have they lost confidence? Why are they shutting down? Why won't they do the work? I don't know, but they have a story. So, core principle number one reminds me I have to understand that story. Core principle number three carried the banner says to me, well, Jimmy, that means I'm gonna have the interactions that I have with this child, the conversations, how I engage the student, how I address the student, how I work with this kid.

Will this kid actually carry the banner for me when they leave my classroom? After they leave the conversation, what are they saying about me? Are they saying he's a jerk? Are they saying, I can't stay on that guy? Are they saying, I really actually like Mr. Cost. He's the only guy that's really ever listened to me and cared about me. Well, that's a core principle. That's who we want to be. I'm living the person I want to be. But then at the end of the day, of course, I'm going to expect excellence out of this kid. I'm going to expect excellence out of everybody I work with, whether it's a student or a staff member.

But that's about modeling, but I'm not going to ask them to do that when I'm not willing to do myself. So my point to this, Darren, is what I learned is if you can take a behavior framework, like I just tried to show and help people see, that is what I mean by living the best versions of ourselves. But first, I have to know who do I want to be. Well, I know who I want to be. I want to be a champion. I want to model what it looks like. I want to create these experiences. And most importantly, I want to have a really good mindset.

and before I walk into a situation. So how do we help people develop those frameworks in their heads, but more importantly, how do we help them live those frameworks? And what I learned is if we can get to that point, we will get a better result.

Darrin Peppard (15:24)

Yeah, absolutely. Well, I think, you so often, you and I've had this conversation a couple of times. Early career leaders in particular, they think they have to be everything to everybody. And they think they just simply have to be the superhero. And I know, you know, and maybe you can talk a little bit about this too. I know you've had your edge of the couch moment as you refer to it. I certainly have had, you know, a couple of my two road moments as I refer to them where

We just kind had that wake up call and realize, you know, okay, this is, this isn't where I want to be. This isn't what I should be doing. Whether that's, you know, the, the, the career isn't what I wanted it to be or the, the person I am, like you talked about, know, getting really clear about who we want to be. I'm not showing up that way. I'm not that person when I come through the door, let's, let's maybe, let's, let's start with your edge of the couch moment, but if you can kind of work that too,

now your lens as a coach when you're supporting others through some of their own struggles. Because again, I think it's a huge challenge for all early career leaders to just get over that. I don't have to do it all. I don't have to be, you know, the superhero all the time.

Jimmy Casas (16:45)

Yeah, yeah, and that's usually a really good starting point, right? Because there are a lot of people right now when I first meet them, well, obviously, let's think about it. Why did they call me? Because they're struggling, right? They're trying to figure it out and they need some help, which first of all, commend them for that, right? That vulnerability, that willingness to say, hey, I recognize, that's why I say the four most powerful words in leadership, right? I need your help, right? I need someone's help. So that's the first thing, to move past that. The second thing I would say is that,

When you look from a leadership perspective lens, that's why I always start off with individuals. The first thing I need to know is, well, who are you as a leader and more importantly, who do you want to be? So that's where I always start with someone because the idea is I have to know who Darren Pepper wants to be so I can help coach you in that direction. That means when we have a conversation and you're frustrated, I'm going to take you back to, well, this is who you said you want to be. When you speak negatively about something because you're frustrated, I'm saying, it's all right, but hey, let's go back to what you said and who you wanted to be, right?

when you're frustrated with a parent, let's always go back to are we living who we say we want to be? Because I think that's what messes with us and that's where we lose our way. So let's go back to this idea you mentioned, Jimmy, how do we then work with leaders who sometimes think they have to be that superhero, they think they have to fix all these problems and I'll be honest, I'm a recovering fixer too, I get it. But the question is why are people fixers? That's what we're trying to figure out. Why do they love to live in the fire? I don't know, but let's figure that out first, right?

So what we learned is this, at least in my experience, there are many reasons why people are that. Number one, most in my experience, when we sit down and interview them or assess cultures, what we find out is that most of them, comes from a really good place. And the answer is this, they see themselves as servant leaders. Great, I love that you see yourself as a servant leader, but it blurs and they lose their way in that servant leadership because somehow in their head, they define that servant leader means I'm supposed to take care of everybody.

take care of everybody's problems. So that's the number one reason. So the good news is it comes from a really good place. Hey, give me that any day. I will take that mindset any day. Somebody who cares enough that wants to help people. That is awesome, right? Truly altruistic in their intentions. Awesome. However, let's coach them a little bit then. So how can we have both? It's not an either or. I'm not asking you not to be a servant leader.

But the question is, what is the servant leader, what is it doing to the rest of the organization? We have to begin to see that. But there are other reasons why people are servant leaders. These become a little bit more challenging. You tell me if you've ever met these people. Number one, we have the other fixer who truly believes that they don't want to give up that power. There's something about giving that up, they don't want to give it up. Now we don't judge it why they don't want to give up that power. It could be maybe they had a bad experience. Maybe they did give up the power at one point.

But when they gave up the power, something happened, it cost them, and now they're almost, it's almost like they're triggered a little bit by like, really don't, I can't give it up because I went through this experience and I'm not, if I'm gonna go down, I'm gonna go down because I did it, right? This is this mindset that I see all the time, right? Yeah, that's a lie. Other people are this. I'll be honest, they'll say to me, Jimmy, look, I'll be honest why I do it, because honestly, by the time I explained to Darren, heck, I could have done it myself.

Darrin Peppard (19:43)

Right.

Exactly. That lack of trust. Yeah.

Jimmy Casas (20:03)

So they view this as a time saver for them. That's the irony of all this. They think they're actually saving time. They can't see all this time they're losing, right? But that's fixed in their mindset. But here's one that's really interesting to me. This is the one that always fascinates me. It's what I call the hero mentality. They love the feeling of doing these things because they want the accolades. It makes me feel good that I can do all this. And I like it when people say, my God, Darren, you're so amazing.

Darrin Peppard (20:04)

Right, yeah.

Right. Yeah.

Jimmy Casas (20:32)

Thank you so much, you're so wonderful. Again, they can't help themselves. They get stuck in that because, let's think about it. A lot of school and district leaders get beat up a lot. So every once in a while, I just do something, so somebody can really feel like I'm really valued and appreciated for what I did. So this is where it all messes with us. And most of us are a combination of all those things, to be honest with you, right? It does feel good to be petted on the back a little bit sometimes. But the idea is the downside, as you said, to be the fixer.

Darrin Peppard (20:48)

Yeah.

Jimmy Casas (21:00)

What people don't see, in my opinion, is it violates what I believe. Again, these are just my opinions based on my experience. What it violates is the number one characteristic or attribute of all successful leaders. The ability to build more leaders. To build capacity. To build a community of leaders to help the organization. Because that's the biggest mistake I made, to be honest, when I look back, is I was that young guy who thought he could do it all by himself. Who didn't think he needed any help.

But I also have felt like I had something to prove. Remember, I'm the minority coming in, the young guy coming in at 26. Can this really guy really lead the school? Well, I've got something to prove. I'm not willing to turn that over to anybody. I'm going to do this all by myself. I just couldn't see it. So there are lots of reasons why people behave the way they behave. But what I learn is that sometimes we move so quickly is that we're not willing to take the time to understand where that behavior is coming from. And it's really hard to know that.

when you don't even know who these people wanna be. And to me, it always comes back to that. Who do you wanna be? And do people even know, and more importantly, are you giving people permission to help you be that person? Because you're not gonna be able to be that person on your own. There is no way. There's not a single individual who was successful, they got there by themselves. We all got there because someone helped us get there. But seems like sometimes when we get there, we kind of forget.

And we need to go back to that to say, it's OK to continue to surround yourself with people who will help you be great because you can't be great by yourself. And that's just how I see it.

Darrin Peppard (22:25)

Yeah.

Yeah, no, I think that's, that's all just so very true. And yeah, reflected in not only who I was early on as a school leader, but also so many of the school leaders I work with as well. I mean, you described, you described a handful of them, most of them in all of that. And you're right. I think in so many ways we do become kind of this blend of all of those different reasons for

trying to be the superhero all the time. you know, I love how you talked about that servant leadership piece, because I think that that's something I believe very strongly. Every one of us sat in sat in the chair, sat in the interview chair, and said, I want to be a servant leader. And somehow, along the way, that got mutated in our brain to where we think it means I have to do everything for them. Instead of

My role, and this is what I believe about servant leadership is truly servant leadership is about empowering others to do for themselves. Like you said, you know, growing those leaders and developing that, you know, that that legacy of leaders who could go and do it all collectively, you know, as a group. So let's talk a little bit then about the state of school leadership. And I'll share a couple of things that that I believe

And then you can tell me, no, Darren, you're way off. Or you can say, hey, yeah, I see that too. Or some blend of it. It'll probably be a blend. But number one, I feel like, and this is something I believe very strongly, I don't think the leadership pipeline is empty. I know people talk a lot about concern with, are we going to have a teacher shortage? Are we going to have a school leader shortage? And I don't think the leadership pipeline is.

is empty or running thin. Instead, I think people are moving through that leadership pipeline so much more rapidly now than they traditionally did before. Now, certainly, you know, there are a handful of stories of people who at 26 were building administrators like you. I didn't leave the classroom until I was 37. So there's always kind of a blend. I think the average has typically been around

you know, between six and eight years that people are typically in the classroom before they move to administration. Now I see so many people moving at such a much earlier time. And as a result, they're less prepared. Yes, you're never really prepared until you go do the job. I'm curious as I share that with you, is that consistent with what you're seeing? and, and either way,

What are some of the bigger challenges you're seeing, especially for those early career leaders that are jumping into these roles now?

Jimmy Casas (25:39)

Yeah, Darren, I would concur with what you're experiencing. The same thing, right? I didn't know where you were going to go with that, but it landed exactly what I would have said. Yeah, I actually wrote that down. They actually have, they're going in earlier with less experience. And for many reasons, right? And that's not always a bad thing. But the question we have to ask ourselves, how are we onboarding these people, right? And that's why you and I do what we do, because we recognize these people need help. They need support.

Right? And so that's part of the onboarding is just they have less experience. But I think that what I see, Darren, from that, it hurts them is think about this. If you were an assistant principal, and let's just say you were an assistant principal for three years, and then you got thrust into the principalship role. Well, sometimes it's almost a little bit like the lottery. Who was your principal when you were an AP?

Well, if your principal expected you as an AP simply to manage discipline the whole time, that means when you went into the principalship, the only skill you really have is you manage discipline really well. Well, what we don't see or what you and I see when we go into the buildings now is I'll go in and watch a principal and they love to live in the assistant principal role. They're still stuck in this AP role, right? And that's because they're good at it. And managing is being able to say, I can show at the end of the day, look at all the things I got done.

But what they don't see is it doesn't move the needle. It's not moving the school improvement plan. School achievement isn't, student achievement isn't increasing. And they get frustrated with that, right? But what they don't see is because they're not actually leading the learning. They're not the instructional leader. They're not in the classrooms enough because that's not their comfort level. They taught for four years. They were an AP for two or three and now seven years into the education profession, still in their late 20s, they're now the principal of the school. Well, no wonder they're not an instructional leader, right?

you had the benefit of teaching a lot longer and that probably made you a stronger act or excuse me, instructional leader than me myself. I had to learn it. I didn't see that initially. My first 12 years, I was the manager too. I was still putting out fires because I was good at it. But what I wasn't good at was going into classrooms. I didn't even feel comfortable in there. I convinced myself, well, I'll just let my teachers teach. And so we see these things happen. So that's probably the outcome that we see.

So I think the takeaway for your audiences, if you're a current principal out there, the number one thing you can do is to ensure that you are taking opportunities to help your assistant principals to coach them how to become successful and effective principals someday. So how do we do that, right? Well, one of the things is we gotta make sure they're getting to the classrooms, but we're getting the classrooms with them. We have to teach them and coach them.

What are we looking for people when we go into the classroom? What was our purpose? Are we aligned in the feedback that we're giving our staff? If not, we're confusing the heck out of them. There's all these things that we can go on in all these variables, but the point of it is the idea is how do we help these people onboard them? If they are coming in less experienced, then this is where I think you and I come into play is I think that is why people are reaching out to us because they recognize that their principals need support.

And I think that's a good thing. think everybody should have a coach, whether it's a teacher, whether it's a principal or a superintendent, just like every athlete, just like the best athletes in the world. Because the idea is you need someone else watching you to see what you can't see. And that's just what I see every time when I'm in a building. So, yeah.

Darrin Peppard (29:10)

Yeah, absolutely. Oh, I agree with that 100%. I'm curious, our time is just flying by. I want to ask a couple questions before I get to the last question that I always ask. Let's talk about those early career leaders. Let's stay on that for just a little bit more. And you're talking about you're banging the same drum that I do too. You have got to be in the classroom. And we certainly hear all kinds of different excuses or reasons, which are still excuses.

Jimmy Casas (29:15)

Yep, I know.

Okay.

Darrin Peppard (29:39)

why we can't get in the classroom. What are maybe one or two of your go-to strategies that you would share with an early career leader so that they can ensure that they are doing that work that genuinely moves the needle that actually improves student outcomes. So how do we make sure they get in the classrooms and that they're giving feedback that, I mean, they can go sit in the classroom in the back and do their email, but that doesn't move the needle. That's just occupying space.

What are one or two things that you would share with principals? Here's what you do to really go be that instructional leader.

Jimmy Casas (30:17)

Yeah, the first thing you have to have is you have to understand a vision of where do you want to end up, right? So why are we doing all this? So that has to be clear to people, right? The clarity of the purpose of why we're doing this, and more importantly, the clarity of who's going to be involved in this, and more importantly, are we giving people a voice in this? Because this is what I call the co-creation. There has to be ownership by everybody. And so that would be the first step we would take. Then we have to look at the layers who's going to be involved in that. Well, number one,

Every principal who has any type of admin, assistant, or secretary has to utilize that person effectively to ensure that they're getting to those classrooms. Everybody needs a gatekeeper. We all need someone to help keep us organized. But initially, what I do encourage people is you have to schedule these things into your calendar, right? If I have a schedule, if I show at two o'clock, I'm meeting with my superintendent, Darren Pippard, guess what?

I'm at that meeting with my superintendent, Darren Pepper, at 2 o'clock. You know what I'm not doing is calling Darren Pepper and say, Darren, I can't come because, I got this parent in the office I got to see, right, and I got to take care of this. Darren, I had a student I had to deal with. No, you had an appointment with your superintendent. I promise you, you'll be at that appointment. Well, why aren't we that intentional, right, and why isn't going to a classroom with the same level of priority? And if it's not, what are we saying to that teacher, and what are we saying to the children in the classroom that says, well, it's not important enough for my principal to come in here?

So let's get back and utilize our secretaries, number one, to help us to make sure we're scheduling these in. We schedule them in. Having said that, we also ease into it. I believe we've got to get away from, well, I blocked off the whole day. Well, that's not an effective way to lead. You have a whole school to lead, people. We also don't expect you to be in the classrooms all day long. You have an entire organization to run. But easing into it means to me is you should be able to find 30 minutes in a morning on a Monday, Tuesday, or Wednesday morning.

Darrin Peppard (31:45)

Right.

Jimmy Casas (31:59)

to go ahead and block off 30 minutes that that 30 minutes you're going to be uninterrupted in that classroom. You should also be able to find another 30 minutes sometime in the afternoon that you can schedule in Wednesday or Thursday or Friday afternoon and you can switch those around. It doesn't matter. But to me, a 30 minutes in the morning, a 30 minutes in the afternoon, that's basically once, you know, one in the morning, one in the afternoon for a week. Do that for a whole quarter. See how it goes. It's the consistency that matters.

Let's be honest, teachers, don't want you in their classrooms every day either. They just want you in there enough to believe that you actually know what's happening in their classroom. They want visibility, they want support, they want to know that you care enough to at least stop by and know what they're working on, what they're doing. They want to show you the great things they're doing. But we can't see that if we only show up on the day of the formal observation, correct? We know this. So that means we have to change our behavior. So ease into it, do that for a quarter, and then go ahead and extend the second quarter. Make one of those visits one hour and then still the other 30 minutes.

By the second semester, you should be able to do one hour or one hour, and to me, that's enough. That's all you need to do. And it doesn't mean one week you can't do a little bit more, but I'm talking scheduled into your schedule, right, into your calendar. So that's the first area. The second thing is we gotta work with another team of people, and that's what I would call my office team. You know, I'd like to say admin team, but I know not everybody has an admin team, but I think we can create an office team. So an office team, whether that's an instructional coach, whether it's a lead teacher.

whether it's someone who's working on their degree, but who is this other couple people, at least a team of three, that can also help you and remind us, isn't part of our school improvement plan to continue to be in classrooms, increase student achievement, increase graduation rates, lower referrals, whatever that is, it's part of that, right? Improve literacy, whatever. But you're gonna need a team of people around you to keep you focused and make sure that we're moving in that direction. So I call that the layering effect, and that's what we wanna layer to, because it has to be a team approach. And then last, I'm a believer.

If you're a leader, I don't care whether you've been in the first year or you've been out of 20 years, you should, in my opinion, not be leading that school by yourself. You need a building leadership team and you need a team with you because ultimately what I believe is that teachers need to be in classrooms also observing other teachers. But going in there because teachers are excited that other teachers are going to come in and watch them, not worried that people are going to come in and judge them. So how do we build that culture? How do we build a culture of trust? How do we build a culture of, hey, everybody here wants everybody to be great?

And if you can get to that, I think you're doing pretty good. So ease into it, but start to figure out where your support systems are gonna come because you're not gonna be able to do this as a building leader by yourself. I guarantee you that.

Darrin Peppard (34:30)

Man, I love that so much. and it's, totally spot on and I wish, you know, I didn't, I didn't get to start working with my coach until late in my second year. I wish I would have had a coach right off the bat because you know, just having that other person to, like you said, you know, see the things that you don't see. you know, mine asking me, good Lord, do you just want to run out, run around, put out fires? I mean, is that like what you want to be? Because that's all you do right now.

Jimmy Casas (34:59)

Yeah, but we're good at it. So there's this little bit, right? You're good at it. So it messes with you a little bit, right? Exactly. So, yeah.

Darrin Peppard (34:59)

And, you know, to say, wow, right. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. It does. It does. Yeah, it's

a little addictive. It's like, man, look at everything I'm doing. Yeah, not really. You're really not doing much.

Jimmy Casas (35:10)

Yeah, that's right. I used to be all say, Darren, if I'm gonna work this

hard, I want to go home and at show people I got some crap done today, right? Look at all this crap I got done today. Yeah, but it didn't move anything. Nothing moved. That's right. That's right. And one thing I didn't mention, because we're not going to get, we can't break this down forever, but the one thing that is also important is when we go into classrooms, we need to be clear what we're looking for when going to classrooms. That's not fair to teachers.

Darrin Peppard (35:17)

Well, that's true, right? Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Yeah. Look at all these things. I can say I checked off the list. Yeah. But, yeah, but there'll be more tomorrow. Guaranteed.

Jimmy Casas (35:36)

that they don't know. I'm a believer that every teacher should know exactly what you're looking for when you come in. This is a little controversial. Most people don't agree with me, but this is just my mindset. I think it works. I can have evidence I feel like it works, but I'm also believe that every visit should be announced. I think teachers should know when we're coming in because I think our job is to set them up for success, just like we're supposed to set kids up for success. So some people like to play the old, well, I just want to drop in and see how they're doing when I'm not there because I'll put the dog and pony show on.

I think I'll figure out pretty quickly if they're always putting the dog and pony show on for me, right? I think I can figure that out, right? But anyway, so that's the one. I'm a little different in that, but I'm a big believer that we should always announce our visits because I want people to know, because I want them to show me their very best and I want them to look forward to having me in their classroom. I want them to say, I can't wait for Jimmy to come in because I want to show him all the great things I've really been working on. Why would that be a bad thing? I see it differently.

Darrin Peppard (36:06)

absolutely. Yeah.

Right. Exactly. Yeah.

Well, and I mean, I love that perspective. I really do. I don't think that it's a, you know, Hey, I'm just going to dust off this one good lesson because here comes Jimmy, you know, if, you know, if they know you on a regular basis are going to be out and about. And I would even say, and I'm curious your take on this, but as far as announcing, I was always really good about saying, you know, Hey, this particular wing of the building.

That's where I'm going to be this week. You know, just so you guys know, I mean, I'm going to be on third floor this week or, or whatever, you know, because I was consistent, not at first. Eventually I got real consistent about, am going to get my time in and I let people know, you know, and they knew that my leadership team, divided the building four ways and we were going to, we were going to be around. We may not get in your room, but we're going to try like crazy. I think at least, at least letting them know there, or would you go even further with.

You know, hey, I have scheduled these four classrooms on Tuesday morning. I'm going let those four teachers know.

Jimmy Casas (37:26)

Yeah,

I'm always a believer that everything, the fact that you did that, I believe got you a better result. That's what I'm always looking for, right? That takes me out of fix them up. Like I can't fix all these problems. I'm just trying to work on my behavior and if I can impact or change my behavior, I think that will get a better result. So the one thing I would say is I don't think there's a wrong or right way. I think there's just different ways, but I do think there are different ways that will get you better results. So what I would say is this, is I would always work with my building leadership team.

So everybody's clear what we're doing, when we're doing it, why we're doing it, how we're gonna do it, right? So they have some buy-in, so if we all agree that Jimmy, does help when you announce, right? And when you come, that's really, if you can at least let us know that you're gonna be in that wing and during that week, that will get you a much better result. You're building better culture, you're building better trust. But yes, then my job is to push them even further and say, hey, let me ask you this.

So I would honestly like to actually tell a teacher, hey, I'm going to stop by Tuesday, second hour. Are you OK with that? Is that a good day? Would you rather have me come a different way? Because remember, when I come, this is what we agree that we're going to look for. If it doesn't work in your schedule, let me know when you're going to do that, because I want to come see you do that, because I want to learn and watch you do that. I'm looking for those models. So that's what I mean about setting people up for success. Does that take a little bit more time?

absolutely it does. But I'm a big believer you build culture by giving, investing time. Remember, that's one of my core values. I can't just say that and then not live that core value. So, yes, there's just different ways and better ways, but it's how we communicate, what we communicate, but it's co-creating what I call the observables, right? Words on the wall. Are we actually co-creating? If I walk into a classroom, what am I actually going to see that tells me, look, that student's engaged?

What would I see? What would I see the kid doing? What would I see the teacher doing? What task would they be working on? And by the way, what's the leader's role in that as well? That's what Words on the Wall is all about. It's a book on instructional leadership. So how can we support our building leaders, especially as they're coming in less experienced? We have to equip them with some content, some information that will help them, but most importantly, hopefully develop their skills that they have to recognize that, yeah, we cause the culture.

We do. That's what I believe. think the adults cause it, not the children. Every time.

Darrin Peppard (39:47)

Yeah,

that's outstanding stuff. Man, we could just keep going and going and going and going and yeah, does. I know, I know it's flying. It's flying. Yeah. So we'll, we'll have to make sure next time we're in the same location, we get to sit down and have a meal together. So, so, okay. So, Hey, we're at that point, Jimmy, I'm going to ask you the same question and ask everybody here on the podcast. this is the leaning into leadership podcast. So how are you leaning into leadership right now?

Jimmy Casas (39:50)

I know buddy it goes quick doesn't it look at the time too like ahhhh I appreciate it man yeah don't worry

That's right, that's right.

I think one of the things I'm leaning into leadership, number one, I'm always constantly reflecting in my modeling what I expect others to do. So that's always the first thing I'm leaning into. But the second thing I would say this for all of our leaders, even in my own world, remember I run two companies and I got to constantly make sure that I'm modeling the same expectation. I'm not going to go into a building coach people and recognize I don't even do that in my own company, right? So the idea is the biggest thing right now I'm really focused on for 2025 that I keep in mind with people is slow down.

just slow down a little bit, okay? We move so quickly in this work, because there's so much to do. But what we do not see is when we move quickly, we do tend to make some decisions a little too quick. Sometimes we're a little impulsive. Sometimes we react, right? But what happens is when those moments happen, I say, and what I observe right now in the buildings that I'm in, is I'm actually watching our leaders move so quickly that what they do not see is they get sloppy.

And when they get sloppy, they, they create the undercurrent. And it's the undercurrents, my friends, that are causing us our culture and morale issues. So we must ask ourselves, in what ways am I contributing to the morale that I'm not happy with, to the culture that I'm not quite achieving? Maybe some of my behaviors are also leaning into that. What can I do differently? What if I slow down? Would I get a better result?

And in my experience, yes, we do. There's only one caution though they got to see. And that is when we slow down, don't let the process become the product. It can hurt you if you won't make a decision either. So it's how we make the decisions that are important as well. And that's why I'm a big believer that these decisions need to be made with the assistance of a building leadership team, an office team, or a secretary who can help us see what we do not see. That's what I'd be leaning into.

Darrin Peppard (42:08)

outstanding stuff man I appreciate it so much. Real quick, if people aren't already connected with you, if they're not already following you, what's the best way for people to get in touch with you?

Jimmy Casas (42:18)

Yeah, think the best way is always just go to the website because I think you can find everything there in terms of contact information reaching out. And that's as simple as jimmykossis.com. So yeah, it's the best way. Absolutely.

Darrin Peppard (42:29)

Awesome, man. Thank you so much for, I'd say sitting down with me, but you've been standing during this interview, which is cool. Yeah, that's good. I know that's good. That's good. But I do appreciate you jumping on, spend a little bit of time with me. Man, you inspire me. I appreciate the work you do for school leaders. You definitely do it the right way. And just really appreciate you spending a little time with me here on the podcast.

Jimmy Casas (42:33)

I know, I've been sitting all day, buddy, I had to stand, I had to sing a little bit, so I...

Thank you, Darren. I appreciate you. God bless, my friend.

Darrin Peppard (01:29.154)

All right, man, 100 % as advertised. Truly, truly appreciate the time with Jimmy, appreciate that conversation so very much. know, every time I have an opportunity to talk with him, I feel like I learned something, I feel like I grow a little bit, and I certainly learned and grew through that conversation. I hope you did as well. So once again, thanks so much to Jimmy for.

being a guest here on the podcast. Really appreciate that. And now it is time for a pep talk. So in this particular episode, sitting down with Jimmy, we actually just did back to back episodes. I was on his podcast a couple of weeks ago. We'll drop those in that link in the show notes. If you want to check out that episode of the interview chair. just had Will Parker on the show as, as those of you who listen regularly know last week's guest was Will Parker.

I also will be a guest on Will Parker's show. Connection is super important. Staying connected with people, reaching out and letting people know that you're thinking about them is important. So I just want to challenge you this week as part of this pep talk to reach out to five people and let them know that you're thinking of them, let them know that you appreciate them and offer to help them in some way, shape or form.

I think that being genuine, being open as a human being and being willing to offer that support to somebody or just to simply let them know, I'm thinking of you, I hope you're doing well, that to me is really one of the most important things. So pep talk this week, very simple, it's just about connection. So reach out to at least five people this week and let them know you're thinking of them, let them know you care, offer a little bit of support.

Thank you so much for joining me here, folks, on the Leaning Into Leadership podcast. Get out there and have a road to awesome week.