Episode 210: Schools That Give an F: Clarity, Culture, and Contribution with Rob McLeod

Darrin Peppard (00:01.026)

All right, my friends, welcome back into the Leaning Into Leadership podcast. This is episode 210. And man, I have got a great conversation for you today that I think is going to really stretch your thinking, challenge your perspectives and help you lead with much more clarity and intention. My guest on the show today is Rob McLeod, who is an international educator with experience in Canada, in Germany and in Belgium. Now Rob's been a teacher, an instructional coach, a middle school head,

He's also the co-host of the Reinventing Education podcast. Rob's work explores how schools and leaders can stop pulling in multiple directions and start aligning their values, their culture, and their leadership systems. In this episode, we're going to talk about three keys that Rob has identified. Three key roles, three types of schools, if you will. The expert, the coach, and the counselor, and how understanding your school's identity can lead to

much more meaningful leadership. We're also going to dive into how misalignment impacts morale and momentum, and how leaders can bring clarity to their school's direction. This is fantastic conversation, folks. You are going to enjoy it. So let's lean in with Rob McCloud.

Darrin Peppard (00:01)

All right, everybody. Welcome back into the Leaning Into Leadership podcast. My guest on the show today is Rob McLeod, and we're going to bring Rob in here in just a moment. But I want to open with this. As I've had now a couple of conversations with Rob, it was just actually on his podcast. We'll talk about that in a little while as well. It brought up some thoughts that way back in my early days, I thought, man, I would love to teach abroad.

How cool would it be to teach abroad? And Rob is somebody who, and he's living that dream out loud from beginning his career in Canada to teaching in Germany to now in Belgium. And of course, in there as well, he has been head of a middle school. going to talk about all of those exciting and fun things and learn about Rob's journey. But also we're going to talk about how schools need to be really intentional.

in terms of the direction that they choose. And Rob's going to give us some insight on that. with that said, Rob, welcome into Leaning Into Leadership.

Rob Macleod (01:09)

Darren, thank you so much. It's a pleasure to be here.

Darrin Peppard (01:13)

I'm excited to have this conversation with you. It's gonna be kind of fun. know, here about a week ago, you had me on the other side of the microphone. Now it's my turn to throw the questions your way, which is gonna be a lot of fun. So let's do this. Let's kind of ground our conversation a little bit here, give everybody an opportunity to learn a little bit of your background so they kind of understand the expertise and knowledge that you're bringing to the table.

Rob Macleod (01:40)

Yeah, thank you, Darren. I think I have a somewhat unique resume in that, yeah, like you mentioned, started in Canada. A very passionate teacher. It was a difficult time to be a new teacher in terms of getting contracts 15, 16 years ago. So after three years in Canada, I thought, well, I really want to be teaching. I want to have my own class and that's not going to happen anytime soon. So let's go abroad for just two years and then I'll come back in two years and see how things have changed. Well,

The two years have now turned into almost 13 years abroad. started teaching in Frankfurt in Germany, and then eventually met my wife. Well, in Europe, she's Belgian. We've settled down here in Brussels. There was a quick brief jaunt back to Canada during that time to teach and consider leadership positions there. But now yes, settled down in Brussels. And throughout that time, I've had the pleasure of teaching every single grade from junior kindergarten to advanced grade 12 classes.

as mentioned was the head of middle school and yeah, it was one of those guys who just wore a lot of the different hats, instructional coach, curriculum coordinator, just always interested in the development of a school. And I've had the unique pleasure not only to see education systems in three different countries, but also in very different contexts. I've worked in the public, private and international school system. So I've, I've really had a privilege of just seeing how education is approached.

very differently to some degree across countries and across school systems, but at the same time to see a lot of the commonalities that all.

Darrin Peppard (03:17)

Yeah, absolutely. So let's maybe talk a little bit more about that just because I'm curious. It's always good to get other people's perspective. I know when you and I had our very first conversation, ⁓ I ask you just in general, as somebody who doesn't live in the United States, are you watching us like you're driving by a slow car accident or just exactly what does it look like? And we're not going to chase that right now. But I do want to talk about maybe what you have learned.

And I don't know, maybe compare and contrast or just maybe share things you've learned about education systems outside of what most of my listeners, not all, but most of my listeners are here in the United States.

Rob Macleod (04:00)

Yeah. So there can be a real culture shock when you go teach in another country. Not that the education systems themselves are that different. Like a lot of the little details are different for sure on the face value, but I think the principles and the core of what, what makes a good school is a good school that is universal or international that that's the same no matter where you go. But where you do hit that culture clash or that culture shock is.

When you realize that like our schools really are an extension of the place that we live in and our social, our cultural norms, just, you know, our ideas about what childhood should be like, what should a teenager be like or not? And, you know, I often joke that, you know, there are just certain social customs. Now this isn't pedagogy at all, but I often joke, so like you've never really lived until you go to your Belgian

child's Belgian school event and a kindergarten student is handing you your beer as you walk into the Christmas concert. Like something that in North America you could never imagine happening, but the kindergarten class here is raising money for their school trip so they're the ones selling the beer at the Christmas concert. You know, I think that's like the most extreme social example, but you just hit these little moments where you think this would never...

Darrin Peppard (05:12)

Yeah, no.

Rob Macleod (05:27)

happen in country X, Y, and Z or like, you know, where I'm from. So you hit those little just social things and then you just realize, yeah, that echoes into what we think is normal or what is not normal in schools.

Darrin Peppard (05:30)

Right.

Yeah,

yeah, that is very true. Yeah, I guess I would have never thought about ⁓ having a kindergarten student selling you a beer at a kindergarten concert. Yeah.

Rob Macleod (05:49)

Yeah, but you know, I'm Canada or the

States, a kindergarten student, selling you an iced tea at the booth doesn't seem weird. It's just something that's different in the cup. Yeah.

Darrin Peppard (05:57)

That's a good point.

Yeah, absolutely. as you, yeah.

Rob Macleod (06:03)

And I just want to make it clear, I'm not here

advocating for increased alcohol consumption and education, but for me, as a North American, that's usually the biggest culture shock moment where you think, wow, I wouldn't see that back.

Darrin Peppard (06:13)

Right.

Yeah, no kidding. And I think that's very true. And you probably don't have to advocate for the increase in alcohol consumption in the United States in education right now. I think that might be happening organically. ⁓ So let's do this. What I'm really kind of curious about, ⁓ I want to talk a little bit about maybe what your experience was or what you learned as you transitioned out of the classroom to

⁓ instructional coach to middle school administrator. So often I think most of us when we make that transition from the classroom to outside of the classroom, realize, wow, this, I remember for me it was, thought everybody's classroom looked like mine and no, they don't. But I'm just kind of curious, maybe what were some of the things that.

that you learned as you transitioned out. Because realistically, when this episode is landing in people's ears, a lot of the listeners might be brand new. Maybe they just found out they landed their first principal position. So I'm really curious to hear maybe some of the things that you learned or took away from that experience.

Rob Macleod (07:28)

Yeah, well, what's interesting for me is in all of my roles, I never left the classroom fully. So even as curriculum coordinator or instructional coach, I was still teaching, you know, part time or up to 90 % even with this kind of additional role in these responsibilities, which I really appreciate it because like you said, you get to other classrooms and you realize like, wow, I'm seeing a lot of great ideas. Sure. I might be here to coach someone. I might be here to, you know, offer some feedback and advice and help.

them go the next step. But I'm learning just as much by having this privilege of getting into so many different classrooms. So for me, that was just an incredible time of exchange. And I think really helped my own practice, even if my role was there to be helping other people with their practice. ⁓ And what's interesting, so when I was the head of middle school in the German system, really interesting thing that I quite liked.

about the German system is no matter how high you get up the hierarchy, you must remain in the classroom. So even as vice principal, as principal, as head of school, you are still teaching a certain percentage. So not only are you in the classroom, but you are attending, you know, department faculty meetings as an equal. You're not there as the boss. If you're part of the English team, when you sit down,

and collaborate with the English team, you're on even par with them. And I found that was really fascinating because I know from my experience in Canada, like you said, the more you move up in position of responsibility, the further you get away from teaching in the classroom. Of course you get back to rooms, but you're not able to be involved in the classroom. And I really appreciated that about the German system that I never left the classroom.

that it was still expected that you would still be taking on classes, which I found, yeah, fantastic to keep you grounded as a leader, that's for sure.

Darrin Peppard (09:29)

Yeah, I would think that would be a huge, huge deal. It makes me think of ⁓ one of my very best friends, ⁓ Eric Lilis, a guest here on the podcast way back, probably about episode five or six, way back when we first started, is just now retiring at the end of his career, 30 plus years. And even though he is the executive director of his charter school, so essentially superintendent, he is teaching.

one course has taught a leadership course this year at their high school, which, which I know has really, you know, kept him young and kept him fresh, kind of kept him connected with, with the rest of the staff, which I think is, wonderful. So I want to dive in a little bit around some of the topics that you and I have talked about prior to even hitting the recording button, ⁓ which, which really goes back to that alignment.

the focus where schools are really going and really getting culture and vision and mission and all of those things really well aligned. I know you have a new book coming out in August that kind of gets at the core of this. maybe let's start with this. Let's talk a little bit about, obviously there was some point in your career when it kind of hit you that

this alignment between vision and mission and culture all need to be going in the right direction. Maybe take us back to that. If there's like a moment in time or if there's just kind of a maybe an amalgamated moment in time where you're like, hey, these are the things that caused me to go there. I'm curious what brought that focus to light for you.

Rob Macleod (11:12)

Yeah, so for me, it's, would say my personal journey with like a, personal roller coaster in education. So I started my career very passionate, very interested in what I was doing, always wanting to do more, wanting more responsibility, wanting to see those classrooms. And, you know, I often say like, I really felt like I had the dream job. It's like, oh, this is so clearly what I'm going to be doing for my career. And I was really lucky. The first few schools that I worked in, I didn't realize it.

at the time, but I was a really good match and in alignment with the values of those schools. And for me, I just assumed this is what working in a school is like. But later in my career, because I've moved around to a few different schools, I ended up in a school where I was not in alignment with the school's goals, the school's vision. And all of a sudden, all of those things I'd spent years doing, you know, that I was rewarded for.

You know, not to toot my own horn, but I was one of those classrooms that, when student teachers are coming, they're coming to my classroom and people are visiting the school, universities, whatever they're coming to see my room. You know, I was one of the classrooms that you'd go see. Well, all those things I'd been celebrated for, and, know, just really feeling like I was contributing meaningfully to my students. All of a sudden, those things were out of alignment with this school. And those things were no longer getting me rewarded. In some ways they're almost getting me reprimanded. It's like, no.

that's not how we do things here. And, you know, it was just a real, for me, it was very like, you know, going from a dream to a nightmare. Or it was like, okay, I think I need to get out of this place. But the thing that stopped me from just running away was like, how come I'm having such a hard time here? And it's not a toxic school. Leadership seemed like some pretty good people. And there are other people around me who seem to be thriving.

and in agreement and in alignment with what this school is doing. And they seem to be doing well. So how is this possible that we've got these completely different perspectives on what should be going on in a school or what shouldn't be going on in a school? And I'm struggling here and they seem to be thriving. And that's when I started to really step back and zoom out and start to see that I think we often approach schools

mistakenly by thinking like, we need to improve schools. We need to do school better. We need to figure out, you know, the new best practice. You know, we want to do a good job. But what I started to see was there's not just one way, you know, and it sounds obvious when you say it, but I really started to see three patterns of three very distinct sets of values in education. And, you know, it took several years.

Of trial and error, you know, through real conversations with people around, you know, staff room tables, parent teacher conferences, talking to leadership, ⁓ you know, seeing what was sinking, what was aligning with people, what wasn't. And, know, through discussion with my cohost on our podcast, Brendan O'Leary, we brought in, you know, a few developmental models to talk about the kinds of values that, you know, exist within communities and within the cultures of workplaces and.

And we applied it directly to schools, which people hadn't really done. And we really just came to see it as there are three roles that a school can play for a student and all three of them can serve students, but they have very different roles. And we, gave these three, terms expert coach and counselor. And we kind of bundled these different. So each of them have different ways of doing things, very different cultures.

very different ideas about how do you organize a school and who's making decisions, who has the power to do so. And once I started to see, actually there are three types of school, then it became obvious like, well, as educators, you can really start to see that everyone has a default mode towards one of these. Because one of these three types, one of these three ways of doing things is what you align with. And the other two, you're either neutral or I find more often like you've got an allergy to, where you're like, no, no, no.

We don't want to go in that direction, but you'll find people who do. So I really started to see these three values and rather than seeing different as wrong, I saw that these are just three different ways to contribute meaningfully. And I'm in alignment with one of them and I'm not with the other two. And suddenly that reframed that struggle that I experienced. And I realized, ⁓ I was just lucky to have landed in schools that I was in alignment for the first few years of my career.

And without this map of this idea of these three types, I was just struggling and fumbling in this other school until I got clarity on why that was. And then I was able to make some real change. And oddly enough, I even stayed at the school and became a leader in the school because there was a changing of the tide in the school that was saying, yeah, actually we don't want to be this type anymore. We want to move towards this other type, which just happened to be the type, luckily, that I was more in alignment with.

And all of a sudden, same building, a lot of the same people. A few years later, I was back to thriving again. But, you I really did go through a career crisis point of for a while, completely considering leaving education altogether.

Darrin Peppard (16:49)

I think that's fascinating. I mean, you've got my wheels spinning and folks, I'm sure, as you're listening to this episode, especially if you're in the United States, if you've paid any attention to education in the last, well, let's just go the last couple of months, but really over the last five to 10 years, when we think about that time during the pandemic, we probably very heavily leaned

away from that expert role. Probably didn't do a lot in the coaching role and did a ton in that counseling space. That's just, mean, I'm not not trying to percolate your work down and I do want you to elaborate on all three, but we've probably gone very far in that one direction. And certainly here in the States, that's helping me kind of maybe reframe why we're seeing such a shift.

in a completely different direction, trying to be pulled very strongly, maybe back into the expert space as opposed to that counselor space. without me, again, butchering your work or putting words in your mouth, maybe let's talk about those three roles maybe just a little bit deeper and maybe give some context to each of those.

so that those people who are listening right now who are trying to figure out, where do I really fall in? What does that really look like in each of those three spaces?

Rob Macleod (18:19)

Yeah. So this is dangerous because I can talk about this for 12 hours straight. If, if you don't turn off my microphone, but to me, the easiest way in is to talk about two distinguishing features of each of the three types. And that's just to talk about who's making decisions about your teaching and learning in the classroom. And what kind of school organization do you need that's going to foster that? So I give a shape to each of the three types. So expert.

I use the shape of a pyramid to discuss it and I'll explain what these mean in just a second. And coach, I use a star and counselor, I use the circle. So let's compare them. So the first step is just to talk about you as an educator. And when I'm saying educator, I'm talking about teacher or school leader or whatever role you're working in a school.

The three choices really are, do you want the autonomy of an expert? Do you want to be part of a collaborative team that's offering ⁓ a shared school-wide approach to teaching and learning or a department, a shared department approach of the coach? Or do you want to be negotiating learning with students? So that first question is, in your classroom, do you want the decisions about teaching and learning to be made with autonomy?

by yourself, in collaboration with others, or through negotiation with a student to negotiate what it is that they're learning goals and how they will do it. The who, what, where, when, why, and how of their learning. So that first question, usually people get a pretty strong sense of, yeah, no, I like my autonomy, or no, my default setting, I'm in there with people, or no, it's me and the student. So that's the first step. But then to go one step.

deeper, have to say, well, that's not going to happen in isolation. There's going to, there, there will be environments that either support that way of working and those classroom decisions, or there's going to be organization structures. They're going to work against that. So that's where those three shapes come in. And in an expert school to serve autonomy, we've got the pyramid and it's a clear hierarchy. say in the school, you've got your head of school at the top. You've got staff below and it's very clear.

what each layer of that hierarchy does. And in the classroom, it's the same thing. You've got the teacher at the top of the hierarchy and they are responsible for the students below them. head of school is making decisions for their staff, teacher, they with autonomy are making decisions for their students. If we move on to the coach to compare that, we've now got this star and I describe it as like a layered hierarchy. So there's still someone at the top, there's still a head of school.

But you can imagine that pyramid. Now I'm talking with my hands. I know maybe not everyone can see this, but we've got that pyramid, which like will fan out into the points of a star. And then we've got a layer of hierarchy. And this is where we start to see all those kinds of layers of responsibility. And we get a lot of new roles in the school. Typically, this is where a lot of the curriculum coordinators, the instructional coaches, these kinds of roles show up. Not to say you can't have them in an expert or coach school or in a expert or counselor school, but the coach school is going to put emphasis on.

on a layer of decision-making. And so we see this in the staff. And part of the reason for this is because all of a sudden now at the coach level, we want to be collaborating horizontally and vertically in our schools. So we want to make sure if Darren and I are both teaching grade five, that what's going on in Darren's classroom is mirroring what's in mind. So if a student was to switch classes, it's a pretty seamless transition. But we also want that seamless transition

vertically through the school. So grade five's talking to grade four, grade five's talking to grade six. We're trying to ensure a shared school-wide approach to the teaching and learning decisions. So in our school, we've got this layered hierarchy of the star. Some voices hold more weight than others, but more voices are included. And in the classroom, this is where you move towards a class that we're looking at more differentiation, and we're seeing the group not as a whole.

but as several points, several stars of constellation in the classroom. And the work that you're doing is happening through collaboration. And then finally, the counselor who's negotiating with the students, we've got a flattened hierarchy. And here in the counselor circle, now, when you start to hear this description, you're thinking, are there schools like this? Yes, there are. They are totally the minority. I can point to the dozen or so in different countries.

But they approach this with a flattened hierarchy where we say, no, no, no, everyone in the school, students, staff, heads of school, even parents, we're on equal footing. Everyone has the potential to be a leader in the school and influence the school's direction if you are willing to show up and do the work. We don't care about your opinion on things, but if you want to lead, show up. We've got detailed processes of how we make decisions through consensus-based

decision-making and all voices that show up to that table are equal. If you're willing to participate in the processes and the procedures, this isn't just loosey goosey. Hey, let's do this. Let's do that. But there's a flattened hierarchy and all voices are equal. And that goes in tow with this idea of the teacher and the student are negotiating. The student is negotiating what would be meaningful for them.

And the teacher's role in the negotiation is to say, this is great. want to customize, personalize your learning. However, there are transdisciplinary skills or themes or content that we do need to cover over time. And I'm going to make sure that we are able to cover them, but you get to have a seat in the negotiation for this. on equal footing here in terms of deciding what you're going to do when, what that learning will look like, how it will be assessed, what your timelines are, all of these sorts of things.

So I would say that's kind of the first step into helping people figure out do you lean more expert, more coach, more counselor. Experts want autonomy, coaches want collaboration, and counselors want that negotiation with students. And experts want that clear hierarchy of the pyramid. Coaches want that layered hierarchy to work in of the star, and counselors want that flattened hierarchy of the circle in terms of school decisions.

Darrin Peppard (25:03)

Man, that's just really got my wheels turning and thinking about the different schools that I have worked in. think honestly, they probably all lean in that expert space, maybe a little bit in that coaching space, which I guess takes me to my next question about this. And I know this ties in with the new book. So maybe we can kind of weave that in there a little bit too.

It's not healthy or good for schools to be trying to go in multiple different directions. It's something you were telling me before we hit the record button. ⁓ Maybe elaborate on that a little bit because I'm sure there are some who are thinking, well, my school's a little bit this and a little bit this and maybe a little bit this. Your position, I think, is pick a direction and go with it, right?

Rob Macleod (25:56)

Yeah, so I would say this is the biggest takeaway that I hope my book can help schools with. And first of all, just simply pointing out, you've got these three options. In the world of education, you can find these three sets of values showing up in any practice. And I think this is the difficulty. We can get lost in surface level details of new approaches, new philosophies, new technologies, new whatever, but

underneath any of those things, you're either moving in one of these three directions. Or another way to say it is that anything we do in schools can be done in an expert, coach, or counselor way, but how an expert, a coach, or a counselor does it is going to be custom tailored or with their flavor of how they want it to be done. They are going to make it more expert-like, more coach-like, or more counselor-like.

So my advice for schools is get clear on which one of these is best for your school's context. And in my book, I lay out about 40 criteria to discuss what is your context. So who's your student body? What's the center of gravity between these three types in your school now? And then the idea is figure out which one of these three is the best direction and move in that direction.

And I offer four pillars for each of the three types to say, these are your four priorities. Get these four things right before anything else. And if you get these four right, everything after that is just a detail on top of these four pillars. So it's offering clarity because I think, you know, I've read a lot of really good leadership books about education and almost all of them at some point say like, you know, to lead properly, know thyself like

know what you stand for, for sure. The challenge is, it's not always the most obvious to define where your values align. And what I think I'm trying to do with this work is to offer to say, hey, really? I'm gonna take a really complex field like educational leadership and boil it down to basically saying you're walking in one of these three directions and everything else is a detail after that. And like you said, anyone listening to this is probably

doing an accurate assessment of their school and saying, well, I can see where we are a bit expert and I can see where a bit coach and I can see parts of the counselor for sure. And I would agree. I would say every school I have worked in, every school I've had the pleasure of speaking with and every leader that I've met sees that their school is caught in this unintentional tug of war between these three. And I think the key word there is unintentional.

tug of war between these three. And an unintentional tug of war wastes a ton of time, energy, and resources as a school either drifts in one direction for a few years and then cuts ties with that, erases what they've done and starts moving in the opposite direction and then cuts ties with that and then moves in another direction a few years later. And anyone who stays on staff, understandably,

will get apathetic after a while of saying, oh, this is the new data backed thing that is now the best. Oh, cause I remember two years ago, we were told that too. And now we have to do the opposite of it. You know, I don't know that's a slightly cynical extreme example, but whether it's the long-term or the short-term, but it's also happening in the short-term. I challenge you now, I don't want to ruin staff meetings for you, but sit in any staff meeting. And this is the way

Darrin Peppard (29:36)

Right. Not like I've never heard that.

Rob Macleod (29:52)

I'm not actually like Neo in the matrix, but this is the way I think of it. It's like, as soon as someone starts talking in a staff meeting.

I just pause for a moment and I just kind of sink into what they're saying and saying, ⁓ yeah, this person right now, they're defending expert values. This person, they're defending coach values. This person, they're bringing in the counselor perspective and they're defending that. And it's already in our schools. So this, I often talk about this work just saying, I'm not offering you the new thing to do in 2025.

This isn't something new to add to your to-do list on top of what you're already doing. I'm doing my best to point out a pattern that's already impacting your school. I'm pointing something out that is already causing either miscommunication between staff members and leadership. It's either causing some degree of people resonating with a leader because there's an alignment of types or that, you know,

that misalignment between the leader and the teachers. I'm just simply pointing out what's already there in a way that makes it practical to deal with.

Darrin Peppard (31:09)

I think that's a powerful tool for leaders to have. Just to be able to, you know, I like to talk about get up on the balcony, you know, that balcony level leadership, and to even just like you said, in a staff meeting, just think about where people are coming from, what position are they taking, as opposed to just labeling them as, you know, they're on board, they're not on board, they're obstinate.

Rob Macleod (31:37)

Exactly.

Darrin Peppard (31:38)

you know, those kinds of things, actually think about where, you know, which of these three camps might they be standing in when they're actually speaking up as a part of the meeting. ⁓ Please do.

Rob Macleod (31:48)

Yeah. So, so if I could add something there, cause I think, think

this is a really, what you're saying, this is really, really important because like I said, you know, for me, can, I can hear when someone's presenting a more expert leaning perspective or a coach or a counselor perspective. And what I'm listening for is a priority. So I discussed the three priorities in school as being responsibility, achievement and meaning. Now.

Every teacher and every leader values all three of those, of course. There's no question about that. However, sometimes in schools we need to make priorities and we want one of those three to thrive. We want it to do well. And if we have to cut out one or two of the others, that's okay, as long as our priority didn't get sacrificed.

And the way that I word this is to say that experts lean towards that responsibility saying if a student leaves my class with nothing else but they're more responsible it's a win. And for the coach they're saying of course all three matter but achievement is my priority and if student can leave here achieving more that's a win. And the counselor they're saying of course all three matter but

If I can only have one of them and a student leaves here with a greater sense of personal meaning and their ability to pursue that in their life, that's a win. Now, again, all three of them value all three, but we can't have all three at all times and certain decisions prioritize one more than the others. And really when I'm hearing disagreement in a staff meeting or between a parent and a teacher or a parent and school leader, very often what the actual conversation is.

are just competing priorities and someone saying, no, no, no, achievement matters more. No, no, no, meaning matters more. No, no, no, responsibility matters more. And that's what's below the surface of words, below the surface of arguments. And once you know to look for that, it's not reducing people and going, okay, you're a responsibility person. Okay, you're achieving person. No, it's the opposite. You can actually understand and empathetically get.

why this person is doing what they're doing and they feel they're contributing meaningfully and as an educator when they're upholding this priority. And when you begin to see that, the educators, the leaders who care the most, you know, in part what's fueling them is they're feeling that they are meeting this priority, that they're serving either responsibility, achievement or meaning for students. And when they're doing that, that's when they feel in alignment and feel they're doing their best work. So if

You know, if you don't prioritize one of those and you're saying, no, no, no, we're going in this other direction. Yeah. And it's going to, you know, of course no one would ever say this, but what you're, what, what people are hearing is, yeah, okay. I get that you've got that priority. No, no, no, we're going in this other one. And in fact, the direction we're going in is going to sacrifice yours a bit. No one's going to be in alignment. You know what I mean?

Darrin Peppard (35:03)

Right.

Yeah, actually you're making me really think back and maybe understand so much more about so many staff meetings that I've been in so many department meetings, so many PLC meetings. know, again, I mean, I've long believed and I still believe I always will believe that educators, every single one of them, they are passionate about what they do and they're passionate about kids, they're passionate about their subject matter.

But that context that you just shared, I think is so ultra valuable. So folks, you're definitely going to want to be looking for this book when it comes out. The title of the book, I'll let you, Rob, talk about that really quick. And then we're going to get to our final question here on the podcast.

Rob Macleod (35:48)

It's not suitable for work.

Yeah. So I've chosen a bit of a cheeky title for the book. I'll give you the PG 13 version, not the not suitable for work version. So it's schools that give an F and with that title, I was really trying to honor the words that I've heard from passionate educators. Like we were just discussing in private conversation, obviously away from students away from podcast microphones. The biggest fear.

that I've heard from passionate educators is this idea of being in a school that doesn't give an F. One of those schools that breeds apathy, indifference, crushes the passion and that desire to contribute meaningfully. So I thought, okay, if that is our warning that we don't want that, we don't want schools that don't give an F.

What's the opposite? How do we build schools that give an F? And, you know, to take that kind of cheeky title and put it into, you know, more appropriate wording is just to say, how do we create schools that people want to be in because the people feel they are contributing meaningfully? And this idea of the three types of school is the way into that to say, well, the first step is to point out that there are three completely different and actually competing

directions you can go in to build a school that is contributing meaningfully. And I say that all three of these schools have the potential to contribute meaningfully to a student, but they only get to do that if you're doing that type well. And to me, the way to do that type well is to go all in on it and not do a watered down version of two or even all three of the types. Choose one, do it well,

And to the degree that you can as an educator, I know we don't always have choice, but find the schools that you align with. If you can't simply be aware that there is a conflict between your values and the schools, but do the best that you can to find the kind of happy medium between the two of them, because you also need a bit of that awareness as I learned to develop that.

Of course, at any second, I'm going to try and turn this into a school or a classroom that I want it to be. And the school is going to be right there to reverse that and, you know, force me back into the shape. So my first step is hoping that teachers and leaders can find the schools that they align with. And if not, at least to navigate the misalignment more intentionally and still find ways to contribute meaningfully when and where they can.

Darrin Peppard (38:44)

Yeah, outstanding stuff, folks. We'll make sure that we've got as much information as possible when this episode drops for you to be able to find that book, be able to find. ⁓ Rob, we'll get to that in just a second. Rob, our time has absolutely flown by as I had a feeling it might do. ⁓ We're at that point. I'm going to ask you the same question I ask everybody here on the show. This is the Leaning Into Leadership podcast. So, Rob, how are you leaning into leadership right now?

Rob Macleod (39:14)

Yeah, so I think at this point, I'm leaning into leadership by helping leaders who do care to get clear on how it is that they will contribute meaningfully. And, you know, I've kind of said this idea of 25 in my career, that I started being a teacher hoping to make a positive influence on 25 students. I got into school leadership hoping to have an influence, positive influence on 25 classrooms.

And at this stage, I'm hoping to have a positive influence on 25 schools by supporting their leaders and basically being like a principal's best friend and saying, Hey, I've got your back. This is a complicated job. There is a lot of responsibility and a lot of confusion that can come with this position and a lot of decisions you need to make. But here's a compass and a map.

Here are the three types. I'm going to help you get clear on which of these three you are. And I'm going to help you to navigate moving more and more in that direction. Of course, there'll be times where misalignment is going to pop up for sure. That's the nature of being in, you know, working with humans. But I'm here to help you navigate towards contributing meaningfully in schools.

Darrin Peppard (40:31)

outstanding stuff. So Rob, people are going to want to get in touch with you. They're going to want to be able to ⁓ follow you on social media. What are the best ways for people to get in touch with you?

Rob Macleod (40:42)

Yeah. So at this point, ⁓ everything's done still through the reinventing education podcast. So that's the podcast that I do with Brandon O'Leary, where it's kind of half of our episodes are digging deeper into these ideas, like the three types of school and a few other parts of the book we didn't get to today. ⁓ but then we also just love having chats with the inspirational and cutting edge and the meaningful contributors in education. So a lot of interviews with just people from all over the world doing really good things in school and.

and trying to highlight, you know, at times when we can like, Hey, this is an amazing example of, know, an expert educator or a coach leader or a counselor school, or, know, these sorts of things to highlight these ideas. So reinventing education podcast. ⁓ that's the name of the podcast. And the easiest way to get in touch with me at this point is reinventing education podcast at gmail.com. You can also find reinventing education podcast.

handles on YouTube. We've got a channel there where we've uploaded not only our episodes, but also video content around these ideas and on social media, Instagram and Facebook, ⁓ Reinventing Education podcast as well.

Darrin Peppard (41:53)

Outstanding. We'll make sure we have links for all of that stuff for you in the show notes. Rob McCloud, thank you so much for joining me here on Leaning Into Leadership.

Rob Macleod (42:02)

Darren, it's been a pleasure to be on the other side of the microphone with you.

Darrin Peppard

As I said, folks, fantastic conversation. Everything you need to get in touch with Rob to listen to his podcast, also to check out the Kickstarter for his book, Schools That Give an F, is down in the show notes. So make sure you go and check that all out. And now it's time for a pep talk. So earlier this week, I had a conversation with actually two different assistant superintendents in two different states.

they were dealing with very much the same challenge. And in these conversations, what they talked about was how they were feeling that the leadership in a particular school that they were discussing with me was really just kind of living in that space that I talk about all the time that running around and putting out fires or just being totally task oriented. Now,

Darrin Peppard (02:13.184)

Leaders, I want to challenge your thinking here. I know when this episode is releasing, we're right at the end of the school year. Maybe you're just coming up for air, trying to catch your breath a little bit. Your year has finished or is about to finish. But I would really push you to think about as a leader, are you a task oriented leader or are you an outcomes oriented leader? I see as a task oriented leader, it's going to be, what are the things that I get done on my checklist?

Task-oriented leaders typically are the ones who get stuck in that firefighter world. Earlier on the show a few weeks ago, Jimmy Casas mentioned that some leaders even just crave that, right? Because it shows, look at what I've accomplished. But when all we do is take care of tasks and we don't really focus on outcomes, which is the second type of leadership in this conversation, we really never move the organization forward.

And when we're outcomes focused, that doesn't mean we don't still have tasks that we need to accomplish, but really what it means is that we have our eye on the horizon as the leader of the organization. That we are the ones who are looking toward that vision that we have, that compelling vision that I talk about all the time here on this show. Being that outcomes leader is what will truly lead you and your team to where you want to go.

not just simply doing the tasks. So as you take some time this summer to catch your breath, get your head above water, take a little bit of reflection and think about, I being task oriented too much or am I staying focused on the outcomes? Hey, that's what I've got for you this week, folks. Thank you so much for listening to the Leaning Into Leadership podcast. Get out there and have a road to awesome week.