Episode 234: Second Mile Leadership with Dr. Jason Williamson

Darrin Peppard (00:01.088)

Hey, my friends, welcome into episode 234 of the Leaning Into Leadership podcast. My guest on the show today is Dr. Jason Williamson, and we'll get to him in just a moment. But I've got to share, folks, over the last few months, I've had the privilege of speaking at conferences, at leadership events, at schools all across the country. And there's a moment that I see over and over again.

You see, when I share stories about clarity, when I share stories about the power of your presence, when I share stories about how we go about building culture, you can literally feel and see the room shift. You'll see heads nod. You'll see people start scribbling notes. And afterwards I hear from leaders, man, that is exactly what I needed to hear, Darren.

You see, it's those moments that remind me that leadership is both deeply personal, but also incredibly universal. No matter the setting, whether that's in schools, in businesses, healthcare, construction, marketing, finance, and beyond, people want to know how to move past just simply managing and how to step into truly inspiring leadership.

And that's honestly why I'm so excited about today's conversation. So my guest, Dr. Jason Williamson, brings an approach that he calls the second mile mentality. This is a mindset that turns expectations into excellence, and it turns everyday actions into lasting culture. From his time in athletics and education to the work that he does now with leaders, Jason models what it looks like to serve with heart and to lead with purpose.

You are going to absolutely love this conversation, folks. Make sure you grab a pen and something to write with or open up that notes app because you're going to want to write some things down. Let's get to it with Dr. Jason Williamson.

Darrin Peppard (00:01.122)

Alright folks, welcome back into the show. My guest sitting with me here in studio is Dr. Jason Williamson. And folks, I just want to be transparent from the word go in this particular episode. Dr. Williamson and I sat down a couple of days ago and we recorded an absolutely stellar episode. And for some reason, it didn't record correctly. So we're going to try again. We're going to try and recreate the magic.

Jason Williamson Ed. D (00:05.946)

.

Darrin Peppard (00:29.61)

that Jason and I had a couple of days ago. So, Jason, I'll welcome you again into leaning into leadership, my friend.

Jason Williamson Ed. D (00:37.274)

Hey, I really appreciate it. I am so happy that you have the patience and the perseverance to stay with this because it is a large undertaking. You've done a really good job of trying to get it back on the schedule and get it going. And the one thing I've learned dealing with you and working with you the last couple of days is you are a find a way type of person. You are going to make it happen. And that is so important in having a leader that understands that the things may not go very smoothly, but they still got to go.

So I appreciate that from you.

Darrin Peppard (01:09.23)

I appreciate that a lot, man. Thank you so much. And I'll say this, too. You know, we, we certainly have some leadership lessons that that come from what you and I have endured over the last couple of days here. And folks, again, just being transparent, I mean, even just getting ready to hit the record button today, we had some technology issues, and, and we're going to push on and you are going to have one heck of a fantastic episode to listen to. So Jason, let's do

Jason Williamson Ed. D (01:23.555)

Right.

Darrin Peppard (01:39.15)

this just to kind of orient our listeners a little bit, share a little bit of your story, share a little bit of your background and what it is that brings you to this point in your career and being right here on this show.

Jason Williamson Ed. D (01:55.291)

Absolutely. You've given my name, but my background really starts, I always start out with where I'm from. I think that's very important that we stay connected to where we're from. So I always shout out little town in Southwest Arkansas called Ozan, population 81. What that really taught me growing up in a place like that was it gave me some confidence. It gave me a moral compass, so to speak. It gave me an integrity, a character that I can then apply going forward.

Once I grew up in that setting and started to get into my professional world, my first professional, if you will, opportunity came as a group home case manager. They gave me an opportunity and a background to really start learning to deal with those students that may have some.

whatever issues that they may have. But it boosted me and gave me a foundation. Once I left there, I went to college athletics, spent seven years in college athletics, Ohio University, Clemson University, University of Arkansas, working with the student athlete. what a lesson. What an ability to go over here and work with the student athletes and liaison with the campus, liaison with the financial aid department, liaison with the parents. Look how I was being set up and prepared.

to go into education and educational leadership later, but without even knowing that. So after leaving that, my wife said, Shelly, 23 years, Cassius, my son, Caius, my son, said, hey, listen, you gotta come on and help me raise these kiddos, right? So that's what made me pivot from college athletics to K-12 and got into K-12, principal, assistant principal, teacher, coach.

building, testing coordinator, athletic director, done all of those things. But my favorite job probably in all those was coaching girls basketball. I really enjoy coaching girls basketball. I love those girls to this day. We have a great relationship. And what I understood and what they taught me was if you have the person believe in you and they believe that you believe in them, those girls will run through a wall for you.

Jason Williamson Ed. D (04:06.426)

Well, I took those lessons to my leadership saying, okay, if that's how I worked with my players, I wonder what it'll look like when I do this with my teachers and my cohort and my colleagues. And all of that being said, I pivoted about a year ago to do this full time now. I speak full time, I coach full time, and I'm enjoying every second of

Darrin Peppard (04:28.494)

Yeah, man, there's a lot in there to unpack. I'm going to go right at coaching girls basketball. I mean, this is, something that you and I have in common. know, I certainly, I coached a lot all the way through my 11 years as a classroom teacher. Coaching actually is what got me focused on education. I was a business major, and a friend asked me to come help him coach a basketball team that

Jason Williamson Ed. D (04:33.004)

Right.

Mm-hmm.

Darrin Peppard (04:57.272)

that he was asked to coach. I mean, I was hooked the first day I went to practice. I'm like, my gosh, I want to be a basketball coach. And Jason, we're not talking high level like basketball here. We're talking fifth grade girls. I mean, this was like Bumblebee basketball. But man, I was hooked. And certainly I had the opportunity when I was a head basketball coach, I was a girls coach. And you're right. When you let people know where your heart is, when you

build those relationships when you just truly love them, my goodness, especially I'd go back and coach for girls basketball today, I really would. Man, they would they just run through a wall for you. And then they would ask you coach, how many bricks do want me to knock down? I mean, it's, it's amazing. It really, really truly is. So, so let's let's dig in to this conversation and really dig into that, that school leadership time specifically and

Jason Williamson Ed. D (05:37.594)

Mm-hmm.

Darrin Peppard (05:55.615)

And, you know, I'd love to hear some of the stories and some of the processes and some of the things that that you were able to accomplish. But I know a big part of it came back to how you were able to. And I don't care for the phrase, but I'll use it. Get everyone on board. Get everybody in the boat. Get everybody on the bus. Get everybody rowing in the same direction, pulling on the same end of the rope. Whatever phrase you want to use.

Jason Williamson Ed. D (06:19.661)

Right.

Darrin Peppard (06:23.574)

Let's talk a little bit about that. I know that connects a little bit to a phrase you like to use called the second mile.

Jason Williamson Ed. D (06:30.723)

Second mile leadership is very, very near and dear to my heart. I didn't make up the second mile. always like to give credit. you write that doctoral, you get really touchy-feely about not giving somebody credit, right? So I got this exactly from Matthew 5 and 41, which says, if a person forces you to go one mile,

Darrin Peppard (06:46.113)

Right.

Jason Williamson Ed. D (06:54.167)

go within two miles. So there's so much to impact with that just one line, those two lines. But what really opened up my eyes to the second mile was my opportunity as a high school principal, my superintendent, and I know that this is the only time this has ever happened, where a superintendent gave a principal a directive that may not have been something that the building wanted. I know that it was just for me, but in that one city.

Darrin Peppard (07:19.266)

Yeah, those things are rare.

Jason Williamson Ed. D (07:20.601)

That's it. And that one situation and I want to say this the superintendent's heart was in the right place I do want to say that what he was trying to accomplish was the right thing It just wasn't a good fit for a high school setting then it came in a comment upon me to make sure that I was able to adhere to what my Encouragement was I won't even call it directed. Well, my encouragement was from soup

and make it work for the people that I was working for every day and the stakeholders that I was working around every day. And that's what we really came up with the second mile understanding as a philosophy that whatever the first mile is, it's just a job description. It's what that says on your contract. It's your obligation to do something. It's your struggle that you're going to go through. It's all of those things. Those are all first mile behaviors. The second mile is where we go above and beyond the minimum

to reach excellence. So how does that play out? How do you put that into a school building, you may ask? Well, you start by making sure that you show up and that you're present all the time and they can see you and that you're modeling what your expectations are. So if you're a young, I know you like to speak to young up and coming brand new administrators. So when I talk about the second mile with that young administrator, that brand new administrator is, hey,

What the staff sees you do is so important. Without them seeing you in the hallways, without them seeing you in the classroom, without them seeing you somewhere on one of their duty stations, then they don't understand or know that you support them. So without presence, there is no proof. If you don't have the presence, you don't have the proof. And that's how we started with the Second Mile. And once we were able to really buy into that as a staff,

That meant the maintenance workers is the second mile concept. The bus driver is the second mile concept. The classroom teacher is the second mile concept. The assistant principal, the principal, you get it, the food services, everybody, second mile concept. You come in off the street to speak to us, we're gonna treat you with kindness. We're gonna see you, we're gonna make eye contact with you. We're gonna share a smile. We're gonna speak enthusiastically and we're gonna stay connected and we're gonna stay with the second mile.

Jason Williamson Ed. D (09:44.568)

And that's what the second mile leadership concept is all about. And that's why we were able to at that high school go from one letter grade to a higher letter grade. We were able to as a high school have more scholarship money than our seniors ever had, make more programs, new programs at that high school than it ever had before, and then end up on the top five growth percent for the state as far as our testing scores and get an award from the state for that.

all by just refocusing on doing what's best and doing it in the second mile.

Darrin Peppard (10:19.662)

So there's a couple of things in there that really stand out to me. Actually, I mean, there's a whole lot, but there's two specifically that I want to maybe dig a little deeper into. One simply is the modeling piece, but I'll come back to that. The other is, you you talked about, kind of went quickly through it, but, you know, greeting with a smile, you know, just some of the very intentional acts. And you and I had a conversation without the recording button.

having been pressed. And you had talked about it's something that I have spoken about before as well. So we have some common thinking here around just how how Chick-fil-A has leaned so much into every Chick-fil-A in the in the world that you go to when you say thank you, every single employee will reply with my pleasure. It's intentional. It's it's taught. It's trained.

Jason Williamson Ed. D (11:06.745)

That's right.

Jason Williamson Ed. D (11:11.863)

My pleasure. That's right. That's right.

Darrin Peppard (11:19.35)

So clearly we know that being intentional with that type of thing will work. How did you go about that type of thing with second mile service? I that had to have some real intentional training to it.

Jason Williamson Ed. D (11:36.737)

Okay, so you're absolutely right. And I'm glad you brought that up. Shout out Chick-fil-A. So when I was looking for something that would work for our high school and I could keep my job at the same time, I ran across a Chick-fil-A video. And with the video, talked about its second mile core concepts.

And I started to read about the second mile and I said, wait a minute, this is what leadership is all about. This is what it should be about. So I very quickly took their training video. I took the Chick-fil-A training video that was on YouTube and took it to my staff. And I had Chick-fil-A in the room and I said, hey, y'all love Chick-fil-A? Yeah. And they, I said, why do you love Chick-fil-A?

and the chicken's great. It may be, I'm not saying it's not, but that's not why you love it. You love it because of how they make you feel. See, people may forget what you say to them, but they'll never forget how you made them feel. So Chick-fil-A, when they say my pleasure, the chicken tastes better, the fries taste better, the service makes it better, and that's what we needed to do as a high school.

because we were in a community, rural community, where that means something. In those small towns, that old school, traditional, yes ma'am, no ma'am, thank you, that goes a lot further than any degree I've ever had in my life. So I was able to tap into what was already a part of their life and a part of who they were, and I just used the Chick-fil-A model, and then we came, and I blended it, and I said, you know what? And we started hashtag 2MS.

on everything and just really made a made a conscientious effort to start to do the things that we needed to do to make connections. Because see, I'm gonna steal something from you a little bit if you don't mind. I heard you say this, when you have rules without relationships, you get rebellion. So we were trying to establish a culture

Jason Williamson Ed. D (13:56.927)

Anytime you're establishing a culture, there's going to be some requirements and parameters, but we needed to make sure we had those connections and those relationships to be able to get to where we needed to go with those policies and those goals. And that's how I used the Second Mile.

Darrin Peppard (14:16.184)

Yeah, I love that so much and certainly something that can be extremely impactful and and I love that you, you know, had Chick-fil-A right there with them, you know, hey, you you love the love the chicken, you love the fries, you love the you love the mac and cheese or mac and cheese is spectacular. But it's it's that next level. And this actually loops perfectly back to the other thing that that I wanted to unpack from what you had said.

Jason Williamson Ed. D (14:30.466)

Mm-hmm.

That's right.

Darrin Peppard (14:44.17)

It's one thing to tell them. It's one thing to set expectations.

I've said frequently, I'm certain you have most good leaders, great leaders have have said and understand that it's not what you say that speaks loudest. It's what you do that speaks loudest. So you talked briefly about modeling. Let's let's take that to the next level. You've set the expectation you've provided some training.

Jason Williamson Ed. D (15:11.02)

You're actually.

Darrin Peppard (15:24.546)

What did you and your leadership team then do intentionally to go model what that second mile service was all about?

Jason Williamson Ed. D (15:32.824)

Well, I have a student example, and we're going to talk about my core values later and everything, but I'm going to start putting students first right here, have a student example. We had a very big goal of improving our test scores. What we did, me and my staff, is we went around to every classroom and we talked specifically about

what it would take for us to go from one level to the next level and that we had all the confidence in the world that they could do that. And then every time we took an interim assessment, we measured where they were and anybody that grew the administration gave them a celebratory party, so to speak, get together. Now teachers are welcome obviously.

But we wanted those students to know that it was important to us and what they were doing was important to us. We take pictures, we put it up on all our social media, we call parents. We were very intentional about doing more than just the first mile, giving them what the expectation was. We went the second mile and did all those services and all those supports.

in order to try to transform their thought process about what they were doing. And every morning or anytime they take an assessment, we're on the loud speaker with them. We're in a cafeteria with a meeting group with them before. And we're making sure that they know, hey, all the stuff that we've been talking about, we're here with you. That's a student second mile example. With the teachers, we then went to and said, look, it's going to be important that we

team and we collectively plan and we use essential standards and targeted knowledge and all those things that you do. But what we did is we made sure we showed up to those meetings. We were in those meetings. We were in those classrooms. We had those coaching sessions. So it wasn't just about the only time they saw us was once every once in a while. We had we had a rotation and then that same superintendent.

Jason Williamson Ed. D (17:53.27)

that gave us the directive said, hey, I want to support you. I'm going to support you. So he then created this district wide classroom walkthrough. So now we're bringing everybody through and we're selling this as we're showing you off. It's not so much that we're monitoring you. We want everybody in the district to see all the good things you're doing. And that really helped resonate and grow our staff.

Darrin Peppard (18:23.808)

I think that's fantastic. you know, there are two approaches to improvement. One is, you know, set the expectation and you use punishment to gain compliance. Get the, you will get here or else. Certainly that's a model that, unfortunately, in education from the very top down from, you know, from from legislative levels and so forth, that that's the model they use get here or else.

Jason Williamson Ed. D (18:40.791)

Mm-hmm.

Jason Williamson Ed. D (18:51.799)

Right.

Darrin Peppard (18:52.642)

you know, it's punishment to gain your compliance. The other end of the spectrum is let's recognize reward and reinforce the things we want to see. Let's really work to encourage and support and coach and you and I both know listeners, I guarantee you know it as well. One of these strategies works well, the other does not. And I don't have to tell you which one it is.

Jason Williamson Ed. D (18:55.659)

The stick.

Jason Williamson Ed. D (19:01.149)

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. That's right.

Jason Williamson Ed. D (19:09.367)

Mm-hmm.

Jason Williamson Ed. D (19:17.751)

Although that's not. That's right.

Darrin Peppard (19:21.626)

I think that's fantastic that that's the direction that you guys went. But I think it has to tie back to something that's just deep in the core DNA of your school. And this is the work, true work of school leaders right here. And so I'm gonna give you a moment here to riff about your core values and where you went with this. But I wanna say a couple of things just to lead into this. Listeners to the show, especially,

My regular consistent listeners, you have heard me talk several times about casting that compelling vision that that is the work that only the building leader can do. You can't delegate creating and casting that compelling vision that here's where I see us in a year. Here's where I see us in two years. That comes from your core as a leader.

I know what your core values are and the core values that you wove into the fabric that was your school. So talk a little bit about those core values, but also maybe even come from a place of here's where this comes from in me.

Jason Williamson Ed. D (20:40.159)

Well, educators and in education, we love acronyms. We are an acronym bunch. We can acronym anything. So when I was a very young teacher, I had someone that I looked up to who was now the superintendent at Foresmith Schools. Shout out, Foresmith Schools. His name is Marty Mahan. I'll even drop his name. He shared a acronym with us.

in a workshop called PACE. And it just resonated in my heart, PACE, because I was a basketball coach, it made sense to me. Well, I have taken that and that has become really the foundation of who I am and what I do and how I work in a building. he had his own pace. I created my own pace. And I always say the pace for a

a building that works for me is purpose, affirmation, collaboration or control, which one you, everyone you want to do right there and engagement. Well, how do we break that up? How do we make that work for us? I go all the way back to the purpose. And we all know about the golden rule. We all know about finding your why, all of those things. What we did, what we did as a staff,

It said, hey, we taking all of these vision statements and mission statements and all of these things, we're gonna boil them down, not I, we are gonna boil them down to something we can grasp onto and grab really fast. And we came up with five core values that we share as a group for our purpose. And here they are. Put students first in everything you do. Every decision you make, every lens you look through, every time you think about something.

The concept is we're gonna put students first. Then the next thing we're gonna do is we're gonna focus on their learning. What does that mean? Every instructional opportunity, every lesson plan, every team meeting, every assessment, all the data, all of those things are wired toward focusing on making sure the students are learning. Then the third thing is this. We're gonna support each other. I'm gonna support you, you're gonna support me, the students are gonna support us.

Jason Williamson Ed. D (23:03.979)

We want the families support, we want the community support. The concept is we're all gonna support each other in doing those first two. And then the next one is commit to growth. And I know it's just in some of the schools I was in, but everybody don't always commit to growth. Every once in a while, just in the schools I was in, you'll find somebody we might call a negative Nancy or a someone that's not quite on the bus. I'm glad that's only in the schools I've been in, but.

And then the final one, and then the final one is engage in the process, stay engaged in the process. And that became our purpose, our collective commitment, what we are, who we are. And we could talk to anybody through those five lenses about anything. You want to talk discipline with a student, you ask a question, hey, are we putting you first? Is what you did putting students first? Or is that focusing on your learning?

Are you committed to growing from the last time you were in my office? You want to talk to a teacher about coaching? Hey, is that lesson plan focusing on the learning that needs to happen for this particular student? You want to talk to a staff member about not being at duty station on time? Hey, are we supporting each other right there? Is that how we support each other?

You want to talk to someone about standard-based grading because they only believe in traditional grading. Hey, are we committed to growing? Are we committed to doing what's next, to doing the second mile here? So, and then finally, you want to have a superintendent come in and give you a directive and you may not be comfortable with it, but you've got to make it work for your building. Are you engaged in the process? Are you staying engaged in the process and not questioning the process, but working?

absolutely as hard as you can. That's why that purpose is so big. Then with the affirmations, we create trust because if you don't have trust, then you don't have relationships. And if you don't have relationships, you can't get results. Then we go to, I like to say control and collaboration because sometimes we get caught up in what we can and can't control and that becomes an obstacle. So I like to put that in there, but the collaboration piece is big.

Jason Williamson Ed. D (25:22.134)

We cannot get what we need to be for our babies if we are not collaborating about what's best for them in the classroom, whole child in the classroom. That's really where and know, Hattie says the number one indicator for student success is collective teacher efficacy. You can't get the collective teacher efficacy if we're not collaborating. Right. And then finally, we want to stay engaged. We want student engagement in the classroom.

We want teacher engagement in the building. We want parent engagement in the building. We want just to be engaged all over the place. And those five things, that's our pace as an umbrella. But then we use those five core values inside that purpose to really drive the rest of the pace.

Darrin Peppard (26:07.488)

I think that's fantastic. so, you you mentioned, you know, one of one of my core groups, you know, who who I am speaking to, but but but but hitting a lot of other people in the process with with the message is that early career leader, that person who maybe just got the keys here, you know, in the last couple of months, and they're listening to this and they're saying, man, Jason, this is all wonderful, but there's just so much here.

Jason Williamson Ed. D (26:36.278)

Mm-hmm.

Darrin Peppard (26:36.66)

I know that this is the culmination of a lot of work. This wasn't just you showed up on a Tuesday and said, I got this. Here's how we're going to do it. Right. Let's let's speak a little bit to that early career leader that that brand new principal, that person who just got the keys, maybe the brand new superintendent who's getting ready to roll out some directive and just listen to you and said, hmm, maybe I should slow down.

Jason Williamson Ed. D (26:40.468)

Right. No.

Jason Williamson Ed. D (26:46.538)

I got it.

Darrin Peppard (27:03.95)

Maybe I better make sure that this fits everybody Not chase the sign the shiny object But let's let's speak specifically to them and I want to go at one Very specific piece that you talked about all of it is absolute gold folks. I hope you took a whole bunch of notes there just Pull over to the side of road write it all down or come back and listen a second time because there's so much so much leadership gold right there But I want to go specifically at

Jason Williamson Ed. D (27:04.437)

Right.

Darrin Peppard (27:33.671)

in purpose, the fifth core value, engage in the process. Because, you know, you alluded to it and, and it wasn't just in the schools you worked at, I had five, I had five on my staff as a high school principal, everybody has a number and it's right in that window 573, whatever it is, hopefully for help. I hope it's not more than seven. But

Jason Williamson Ed. D (27:38.837)

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Darrin Peppard (28:03.746)

We have those who maybe don't want to engage in the process. They have excuses. They say things like, yeah, we used to do that and we called it something else. Or I could give you 25 different things that I have heard along the way. Really strong leaders find a way to work through that, to invite those people to come along or to invite them to find

other gainful employment. But speak a little bit to those new, new leaders who probably will run into those who don't want to engage in the process, what might be some advice that you would

Jason Williamson Ed. D (28:49.204)

Well, the first thing I want to say is, don't take it personal.

If you don't take it personal, then you won't make an emotional decision. then, because emotional decisions leads to wreck and have it. And it's not easy, but you were called to leadership and everybody's not called to leadership. So there's a responsibility that comes along with that. I do want to share something. I didn't share this with you the other day, but I thought about this later. I failed at so many things as a leader. So I want to say to the young people or anyone.

you're gonna fail. probably, I always say, man, I was so bad at relationship building as a principal because I thought it was about managing and really putting things out there and having all the keys to the kingdom and everything. I'm gonna control everything. And are you breathing? Cause I didn't give you permission to breathe, right? And so.

Darrin Peppard (29:49.038)

Yeah, I laugh because I yeah, I did the same things. Yeah, I'm with you.

Jason Williamson Ed. D (29:54.614)

So, and it wasn't until, and I don't wish this upon anybody, let me say this, but this is what happened to me. There was something that happened at my high school and I'm having a meeting with the whole staff and a young teacher stood up and called me an asshole.

Jason Williamson Ed. D (30:18.581)

That's tough in front of the whole staff. And if I took that personal, if I took that personal, and I'm not telling you I didn't, right? But I am telling you, I had great leadership that helped me through that. To say, look, don't take it personal, young man. There's something about what you're doing as a leader that has alienated this teacher.

Darrin Peppard (30:21.048)

Yeah.

Jason Williamson Ed. D (30:47.955)

Whether it was intentional or not, it has happened. We're not gonna focus on whether or not she was professional or not. That's not the issue right now. We need to get in that mirror and look and evaluate what are we doing as a leader that makes her feel alienated. Now why am I sharing this? That's the whole engage in the process. I gotta get back in the boat.

I got it right there in front of the whole staff and I did, thank you Jesus, I got a smile and say, hey, onto the next topic. I can't let them see me sweat. But the reality is I got to immediately start to work to find out why does this young lady feel so alienated. After whatever happens from a disciplinarian standpoint, we got to figure out what makes this young lady feel alienated. So when I'm engaging in the process, what I mean is,

I don't let the ebbs and flows of the job distract me from the responsibilities of the job. My responsibility as a leader is to stay the course, is to be bigger than whatever the obstacle is, is to provide and give vision, to give mission, and then without a doubt, don't falter in that. Don't question yourself. Reflect without

questioning yourself. Be confident enough to say, hey, that young lady said that to me, but I got to figure out a way. I got to let the staff see me trying to make it comfortable for her or her to be able to function in the building. She may never get on my boat. She may never, like you said, she may never be on my team. But what I can't have is people feeling like, well, why does she?

because somebody's going to ask, well, why does she feel that way? What they got going on? All these different questions are going to come out. So what I did, I had great leadership. I have to give them credit. I started to find ways that this young lady could add value from a distance. Didn't have to come from me directly. It came from me, but it didn't have to come from me directly because our goal wasn't for me to be her best friend.

Jason Williamson Ed. D (33:10.567)

Our goal was for her to put students first and focus on their learning. But also remember, I still got to support her even though it don't feel good. And it helped me grow as a leader and it helped me stay engaged in the process. And so that's what I would say to anyone that's a leader. You won't have a story much worse than that when I promise you, hopefully, hopefully, but I still don't.

hold that against that young lady. I reflected on Jason Williamson and now I gotta make sure that I am doing the things that I say I believe in. And that's what I did. And that's what I encourage anyone to do. But I encourage you to have somebody to talk to. I encourage you to, it's okay to have a mentor to talk to.

I encourage that, get you a mentor. I encourage you to get someone that's not in your school district that you can bounce ideas off of. I encourage you to build your network. I encourage you to listen to podcasts. I encourage you to find the answers. Those are all what? mile behaviors.

Darrin Peppard (34:17.258)

Absolutely, man. Yeah, you've got me you've got me reflecting on on I had a very similar situation Wasn't called an asshole, but I was told I was the worst principle that that person had ever worked for and as much as it made me want to bark back it actually made me reflect and No, we never had a great relationship from that point forward

Jason Williamson Ed. D (34:28.404)

Yeah

Jason Williamson Ed. D (34:45.782)

Right.

Darrin Peppard (34:47.832)

but it became, right, I've got to figure out how do I support this person? How do I help them lean into kids? And I could chase that for another hour, but I'm not going to. But I really appreciate you sharing that. that, you know, being vulnerable and being honest with that, folks that are listening, every leader is gonna have some of those moments. As we're recording this,

Jason Williamson Ed. D (35:15.093)

Absolutely.

Darrin Peppard (35:17.056)

About a week ago, I was on Principal Caffele's AP and Principles podcast along with Sean Gaylord and Charles Williams. I had already gone and so I actually did not get a chance to loop back and share my story of failure. But Sean and Principal Caffele and Charles all shared some moments of low points for leaders. We all

have them. Don't think that you're looking on social media and you see this person or that person or whatever. Jimmy Casas tells the story of it all falling apart for him. mean, we all have those moments. do everything you can, like Jason said, to minimize those moments. But you're going to have the blind spots. You're going to do things that will lead to those moments. And just know that you're human.

Jason Williamson Ed. D (35:58.472)

it.

Darrin Peppard (36:16.406)

So really powerful stuff, Jason. And wow, our time has just flown past. But you know, here's the thing, you and I'm going to ask you the same question I ask everybody here in just a moment. But you had said to me before when we were having our tech issues this morning, before we hit the record button that, you know, hey, this is all just proof that we're about to put together something amazing. And this has absolutely been everything you said it was going to be. So

Jason Williamson Ed. D (36:23.145)

Didn't it?

Darrin Peppard (36:46.122)

Let's lean into that final question here on the show. How are you leaning into leadership right now?

Jason Williamson Ed. D (36:54.249)

What I do, I do a lot of podcasting, listening to podcasts, talking to people like yourself, just getting more insight. This past year, I was able to, you mentioned Jimmy Costas, so I will say this. A young lady by the name of Sarah Johnson was my coach for a year. my gosh, she opened my eyes to so many things, man. I so much love and respect for her.

Darrin Peppard (37:19.81)

She's amazing.

Jason Williamson Ed. D (37:23.027)

So what I am doing now to myself is I am going out and trying to find those opportunities to help to share the second mile leadership. I have coaching opportunities. I have keynote opportunities that I want to bring this message to you. You can get a whole year's worth of this one-on-one virtually or in person because what I know, what I knew as an assistant principal, your principal don't always have time to coach you.

and the district's concepts in most places is to coach the principal. So you are learning how to be an administrator in many situations, trial by fire. And what happens is you do that and you and I both know, then you get to become principal and you have no idea how to be a principal because you've been an assistant principal.

Darrin Peppard (38:17.262)

Yeah.

I live that one,

Jason Williamson Ed. D (38:22.362)

Right? And it's not a knock, but you think you're ready because you've been managing the building. It's a whole other set of questions in that next chair. So what I want to do is go out and I want to do that. I want to principals, specifically assistant principals, get ready for the principalship, to look for being intentional for doing principal things in the assistant principal chair.

Darrin Peppard (38:49.87)

love that. You know, I mean, that's that is a group. Very good friend of my Dr. Frederick Busky, the assistant principals podcast. mean, that's a group that needs to be poured into. I experienced that exact same thing. You know, it was 40 feet from my AP office to my principal office. And I said it 1000 times, it might as well have been 400 miles, just the difference, right, the difference between the two chairs, as you put it, it is a different set of questions.

Jason Williamson Ed. D (39:02.366)

Mm-hmm.

Jason Williamson Ed. D (39:08.584)

Mm-hmm.

Jason Williamson Ed. D (39:13.106)

That's exactly right.

Darrin Peppard (39:19.65)

people treat you differently when you are in the captain chair versus versus you know the the navigator chair I mean there's

Jason Williamson Ed. D (39:26.708)

And what you say is received differently from those two chairs.

Darrin Peppard (39:31.68)

Absolutely. Yeah. Well, in so much of the role, yeah, I will, I'll chase this for just a second. But so much of the role, when you move into that principal chair versus being in that, that assistant principal chair has a different connotation to it. It's it's more what one of the one of the principles I coach just yesterday during during our conversation.

he talked about as a high school principal and he was a former middle school principal. But moving into this high school principal role, he said, Darren, so much of my role is symbolic leadership. It's, you know, this, this, it's a different presence. It's a different set of responsibilities. And until you go do it, you're, you're right, you're just not ready. So pouring into those people, man, what, what an amazing way to lean into leadership. love that so very much.

Jason Williamson Ed. D (40:21.908)

You know, right?

Darrin Peppard (40:27.395)

Jason, people are going to want to get in touch with you. what's the best way to get connected with Jason Williamson?

Jason Williamson Ed. D (40:33.808)

My website is IamJasonWilliamson.com. All of my socials, Instagram, Facebook, those things are also IamJasonWilliamson. My LinkedIn is JasonWilliamsonEDD.

and you can get in contact with me with any of those places. I'm sure you're gonna have something in the show notes. I think what I share with you for the show notes is my link tree so people don't have to try to memorize all those things. They just click on that and it's all their form. But I look forward to hearing from you. The gentleman that you just mentioned, that's the Assistant Principal Podcast. Hope he's watching and listening. I'd love to have a conversation with him.

Darrin Peppard (41:16.758)

I will make the connection with you and Frederick no problem at all right there. Man, this has been awesome. Dr. Jason Williamson, thank you so much for joining me here on Leaning Into Leadership.

Jason Williamson Ed. D (41:25.64)

Thank you so much. Godspeed.

Darrin Peppard (02:10.445)

Man, what an incredible conversation with Dr. Jason Williamson. Again, I really appreciate his perseverance. I appreciate him sticking with it and sticking with me because let's be honest, when you go through those processes and you find out that

Darrin Peppard (02:26.498)

the episode that you just recorded that was so good, still didn't work out. And you have to go back and do it again. It can be quite frustrating. And I'm going to be perfectly honest with you folks. The one that we recorded that didn't come through was not as good as the one that you just listened to. So thank you again, Dr. Williamson. Make sure folks you get down there in the show notes and grab all the stuff that Jason has to offer. And now it is time for a pep talk.

Today on the PEP talk, I wanna talk about asking the next question. I was having a conversation with a group of leaders that I support and they were sharing with me a couple of employees they have that are, let's just say not quite meeting the standard, underperforming, maybe even bringing some negative energy to the overall group. I had some really good questions for them among those.

was what again were the primary focuses? What are those things that you believe deeply in? In their case, they have five pillars. I said, okay, let's get back to your five pillars and tell me first how you are recognizing, rewarding and reinforcing those five pillars. And folks are doing a brilliant job of it. I said, now let's talk about those five pillars in regard to the behaviors that you're seeing from these individuals. Are they meeting up to those standards? And of course the answer was no.

And I said, well, let's go specifically to the pillar where they're failing. And I want you to have those conversations with those employees. And I want you to ask more than just the initial question, more than just simply is your behavior or the decisions you're making or the actions you're taking meeting the standard of our pillars. I want you to ask additional questions. I want you to dig deep, really make sure that you're making a connection and finding out truly what's at the core.

Darrin Peppard (04:27.626)

of those decisions? What's at the core of those behaviors? What's at the core of the actions that they're taking? They're probably not trying to be belligerent. They're probably not trying to be negative or obstinate. Odds are there's something else going on. You see, as leaders, when we're willing to ask the extra questions, when we're willing to go just a little bit further, and that ties in very well with Jason's second mile mentality,

When we are willing to ask those extra questions, we go from simply a space of accountability into a space where we're really working to support, to build relationship, to coach, to empathize, and to genuinely lead. So my challenge for you this week, ask the extra questions, set the time aside, be willing to really dig deeper so you can lead better.

Hey, that's what I got for you this week, folks. Until next time, get out there and have a road to awesome week.