Episode 236: Courage, Recovery, and Hope with Dr. Kacy Shahid & Dr. Kevin Lein

Darrin Peppard (00:00.686)

All right, my friends, welcome into Leaning Into Leadership, episode 236. Today's episode is one of the most powerful conversations we have ever had here on the show. I am joined by two remarkable leaders, Dr. Casey Shaheed and Dr. Kevin Lyne. Both are members of NASSP's Principal Recovery Network. Together, they share deeply personal stories

of surviving tragedy in their schools, navigating the aftermath and finding renewed purpose in advocacy and support for other leaders. And Dr. Shahid reflects on leading her alma mater, Central Visual and Performing Arts High School in St. Louis, when a gunman entered the building in 2022, claiming the lives of a teacher and a student. She describes how preparation, empathy, and vulnerability shaped her leadership during and after the crisis.

Dr. Lyne recounts surviving a shooting in his office, where he was shot by a student and the lifelong impact it has had on his leadership journey. Now a professor at Wayne State, he continues to inspire the next generation of educational leaders through advocacy, reform, and heart-centered leadership. And together, they highlight the critical role of the Principal Recovery Network, a group of current

and former school leaders who provide immediate support and long-term guidance to principals navigating the aftermath of school violence. This conversation blends raw vulnerability with courageous hope, reminding us that the future of education lies in connection, empathy, and leaders who are willing to walk through the hard work of healing. Let's dive in with Dr. Casey Shaheed and Dr. Kevin Lyne.

Darrin Peppard (00:01.006)

All right, my friends, welcome back into the Leaning Into Leadership podcast, very special episode today. And I'm really excited about having this conversation. And it's perhaps a conversation that not everybody would want to have, but it's certainly one that we need to be aware of. I'm joined today by Dr. Kevin Lean and Dr. Casey Shaheed. Both are members of NASSP's Principal Recovery Network.

And when I give them the opportunity to tell a little bit of their story, you'll understand exactly what that means. But I'll preface by saying this. There were a few times for me as a school leader where there were some pretty, let's say heated moments. Those of you who are regular listeners to the show know I talked a lot about leading from the middle, the back as much as possible, but occasionally you have to lead from the front.

And it's in those most tragic times, those most challenging times when leaders genuinely lead from the front. But certainly Dr. Lean and Dr. Shaheed have very interesting stories to tell related to exactly that. So I'll stop there and welcome both Kevin Lean and Casey Shaheed into the show. Both of you. Thank you guys so much for joining me here on Leaning Into Leadership.

Kevin (01:28.96)

pleasure.

Dr. Kacy Shahid (01:30.908)

Pleasure to be here.

Darrin Peppard (01:32.652)

Yeah, so let's do this. Let's set the table a little bit for today's episode and maybe give our listeners a little bit of background, share a little bit of your story, your leadership story, and certainly as much of the story as you choose to that ultimately led to your connection with the Principal Recovery Network. And Kevin, I'm going to come to you first.

Kevin (01:57.888)

35 years in leadership, either at the post-secondary or K-12, and have had just the great fortune of standing on the shoulders of so many giants, wonderful people who...

teachers, even students who have led me to just terrific things in my life. So I've been incredibly fortunate. I have to tell you, mean, there are times in the morning, early morning, I wake up dead. A young man came into my office.

held a gun to my head, pulled the trigger. Fortunately, it didn't go. Step back, redid it, shot at me. I ended up getting my arm up. The bullet went through my arm, my chest, knocked me on the floor. I survived that day. And I've been able then, since then, to continue to work and try to assist those people who have that sense of desperation that would carry out some kind of an act like that.

I feel great guilt still for that young man. Don't feel like I served him well. I like our system didn't serve him well and I personally didn't serve him well. And so my passion right now is to continue to try to aid and maybe make some changes that can really make us safe, which the only way that we're really safe is if those hearts and those souls care about other people and then they make great decisions. So right now I'm a professor at Wayne State College. Get to help people become principals

superintendents through that educational leadership program. It's tremendous and continues to give me the optimism that we have so many great leaders and that perhaps we can make some real reforms that are going to allow students to feel hope every day.

Darrin Peppard (03:43.351)

Casey.

Dr. Kacy Shahid (03:45.031)

Yeah. Thank you, Kevin. Thank you, Dr. Pepper. Over 25 plus years in education, I started as a substitute teacher in the St. Louis Public School District. And within six years, I was principal of the Big Picture Schools, which is based on a national model that was brought to the St. Louis area. And then I had the honor of recently

leading my alma mater, which was Central Visual and Performing Arts in St. Louis, Missouri. Later went on to be an assistant superintendent, and I'm currently working for St. Louis University as a strategic advisor. My trajectory in the field of education has been a mission and a calling for me. Although I didn't set out when I went to college, I didn't think I would be in education, but here I am. I feel like it found me, and this has been my home where I believe that I have made impact.

And everything changed for me on October the 24th, 2022 when a former student shot through a locked door. And on that day, he killed a teacher and a student and injured several other students. And although I had believed and still believe that this is my mission at call and I had to reevaluate my purpose and my passion after that tragic day and still do at times, I still wonder what has kept me focused.

it hard work. call it...

It's where purpose and passion collide and it is the thing that's going to sustain me in this work when on moments and times when I feel challenged. And so I lean into the hard work of it all, not hard work. I also focus on the lives and the students that I've served over the years and the impact that I've had on them. I do believe that that day as tragic as it was the days, the weeks, even now the years that have passed,

Dr. Kacy Shahid (05:44.111)

can't undo what I saw. I choose to not let it be a big monster in my life. So I choose to advocate for others who may have gone through something similar or who have experienced trauma and tragic in the leadership, in their leadership role. so being part of the principal recovery network has given me a safe space of individual. I call them some bad, bad a words out here and they are determined to advocate and speak up and stand up where they can and provide space.

others so that's kind of where I am right now today.

Darrin Peppard (06:17.897)

Yeah, you know, I was looking through on the NASSP website about the principal recovery network, and just looking at the individuals who are a part of that network, the part, the group that has done so much work, not just advocating, but the development of the recovery, the recovery guide for principals, which we'll talk about in a little bit. And just some, you know, it's it

it's mind blowing for me to to look at and see the names of schools that we're all so familiar with, like Marjory Stoneman Douglas, Columbine, know, Sandy Hook Elementary, and so forth. And I'm sure that and I want to get into to more of the content that each of you have have referred to. But I want to maybe ask just a little bit of this.

when the group is together, at least initially when the group is together, you all have a bond that probably no principal wants to have with others. What what might it be like in that room? What what what does that camaraderie like when when you do have just a really unique shared bond like you do?

Kevin (07:45.409)

Well, I'll tell you it's evolved. Dr. Peppered, I can remember the very first meeting that was an originator with Mr. DeAngelis from Columbine and Ty Thompson from Parkland, Dr. Gombos from Sandy Hook.

And I felt minuscule in the room, humbled by these people who had much more severe traumatic events than I. But they're incredibly accepting and we do share that uniqueness of something that's occurred to us that doesn't happen to everybody. And so it's been really therapeutic. I would say maybe Dr. Shahid would verify that.

you get to speak to people who have at least somewhat of a like experience and there's a bit of understanding that's difficult. You know, you're very lonely when those events happen because you're the only one that it occurred to. you know, like Dr. Shaheed has mentioned many times, you know, she felt like a broken leader for a time and no one was doing anything about it.

So we we do have a certain bond It's not a great group to be a part of to tell you the truth because something that means that you know You're a little infamous in that way But it is a bit therapeutic and then the work itself. I think is therapeutic in trying to assist others who? Unfortunately just continues to happen to

Darrin Peppard (09:23.935)

So I'm curious. Actually, I want to go back to something that that Casey, you said before we hit the record button and let's talk maybe a little bit about understanding and being you've talked a lot about about empathy with with others. And prior again, prior to hitting the record button, you were talking about

the Yuvaldi shooting occurring before yours and a reaction of a staff member without necessarily, you know, recanting that specifically. I know that that ultimately led to you thinking a little bit differently, doing a little bit different preparation that really probably helped benefit you when the time came. Let's maybe talk a little bit about some of the things that you did to maybe shift your thinking a little bit also.

to help prepare yourself because you you had said and I think you'll probably say it again it's not if it will happen but potentially when it will happen.

Dr. Kacy Shahid (10:33.359)

Yeah, it was May and staff member had a reaction to the Yvadi shooting and insensitively my reaction really was, I thought it was so far away from us. So why would you be this emotional is what my initial thought was.

In a reflective moment, I realized how insensitive I was. I always talk to the staff about being, you know, leading with empathy and being authentic and transparent. And so in a transparent, reflective moment, I realized that even though I didn't tell the teacher, it was a thought that I had, which made me want to.

I kind of thought if I'm feeling this way, I wonder if I projected that on someone else. And it also made me want to research what was going on. I knew the shooting had occurred. I just didn't know the details. I began to research what happened, the details. And from there, in my researching, I came across the term vicarious trauma.

secondary trauma and the effects of it. We had already done training around being trauma informed. We had not talked about secondary trauma and vicarious trauma and how that might affect us. This particular staff member was no longer able to teach for the remainder of the day. That's how emotional they were.

And so I did research around secondary trauma, shared it with the staff, talked about the importance of having those coping strategies in place for all of us who are considered caregivers. We're caregivers to our students, we're caregivers to the people that we love and care for that's in our personal lives. And so how do we normalize that we are not well all the time and that that's okay not to be well? So that was where I went with my staff. But it was a historical

Dr. Kacy Shahid (12:25.406)

I didn't research all school shootings, but we were a school who had marched with Marjorie Stoneman Douglas and well, they didn't know we marched, but we marched and we took a stand for gun violence. And so we were already a school that amplifies student voice. And so when you've already happened, happened at the end of the school year. So it wasn't time to galvanize the students. So it forced me to think about the staff and that's what I did that August to the point where

where one would have even thought, did you know something was going to happen at your school? Is that why you talked about Uvalde and is that why you did your research? It is not. was, I guess the universe has a way of preparing us for things because I definitely felt more prepared, but I don't know that you can ever be prepared. I was prepared in the sense that I knew of some coping strategies. I was prepared in the sense that I knew of details of what had happened at a school prior.

Darrin Peppard (13:23.69)

So, so what I'm hearing in terms of preparation, and I would love to have both of you talk about this. I'm not hearing more hardening our school, I'm not hearing more metal detectors and not hearing more not not that any of those things don't need to happen and we don't need to have, you know, single point of entry those I'm not I'm not advocating in that direction.

Dr. Kacy Shahid (13:28.721)

Mm-hmm.

Darrin Peppard (13:50.785)

But I'm hearing Casey, you say more about coping strategies about preparation for staff. I know you've done some preparation or rather some presentations around that preparation. Maybe I'll come back to you first and then Kevin, I'd love to have you maybe, maybe build on that.

Dr. Kacy Shahid (14:09.916)

you.

Preparation is something that I as a school district we were prepared for. had mandatory drills that we had to do, intruder drills and you know very natural disaster type drills and we had just had a drill in September. I am I was principal of a performing arts high school and I didn't mention it was my alma mater nor did I mention that I won best actress when I was a student there but I won best actress and so I remember doing our drill in September and I was the crazy person going around to the rooms not crazy

but I was knocking on doors and I told them it was me and I didn't have my keys and unlock the door. I went to some of my new teachers because I wanted to see if they would allow a student to unlock the door or if they will unlock the door and one teacher did and I told her I have keys never unlock the door. I could have been an intruder but I went to multiple rooms knocking very hard in a you know a voice of desperation that but I they knew it was me. Why did I do that? It was the actress in

did not believe that we would have had something like that to happen the following month. But in terms of preparation, I believe that as a school district and as a school community, we were prepared for an on the surface attack. Intruder comes in, we know how to do an intruder drill. What actually happened on that day, were we prepared for that day? The details of what happened, absolutely not. And I don't know that anyone is ever truly prepared. I just think-

things worked in our favor on that day. We had not had a hall sweep since COVID and we had our first hall sweep on that day. A hall sweep for us sounds like teachers, have one minute, lock your doors. Why did I do a hall sweep? We had a school up the road that had several fights like the following week or the previous week. And I said, you know what, that's a sign of, I mean, it it could happen with us, even though we don't have fights, let's be proactive. And we had already had our homecoming dance. We'd already had our report, our first quarter report card. My,

Dr. Kacy Shahid (16:10.684)

leadership team and I decided to implement Hall Sweeps because we were seeing a lot of defiance. Bellwether Ring students were moving very slow going to class and during COVID we were pretty nice. Okay sweetie pie let's get to class. Well now I decided let's get firmer on today and so my assistant principal said I can do a Hall Sweep and we agreed if we do we have to do it for at least one month straight or else it'll be a game for them. He called the Hall Sweep

Students did like I knew they ran they were laughing. He had his push room hall sweep and he's literally like he sweep in the halls I stayed in my office on this day because I wanted no parts of the What I thought was befoolery with kids because it was gonna take about two or three times for them to know that we were serious especially for the incoming students would never participate in the hall sweep with us and then it wasn't even

13 minutes that the gunman shot through the door. So our hallways were clear, if I can give you a visual, because we had called the hall sweep unbeknownst to us that anything would happen. Also on, we had an alternate schedule. I had a hybrid schedule. I was, I went against the grain. The district was on a block schedule. I decided we would be a hybrid because after COVID, who wants to sit in classes for 90 minutes? I would not advise anyone to do this. I was going to ask for forgiveness later. So I was on a hybrid schedule. So

Our bills have been the same for years. It was no longer the same. So passing periods were different every day. At the time that he entered the building, it would have been at a passing period as he would have previously known.

but it wasn't because we had changed the bail schedule. I had an officer who was in the building that he shot through and an officer in my building. There must have been some communication that officer, he gave the code, our lockdown code. I'm so nosy, Darren and Kevin, that he told someone to tell me to lock the school down. And being nosy and being a detailed person, I would have went to see what was happening first.

Dr. Kacy Shahid (18:10.044)

On this day, I immediately did the lockdown code, which I never do. My assistant principal always gets on the intercom. But on this day, I went to the intercom. My secretary says, what's going on? I said, I have absolutely no idea. I didn't know, which is unlike me. I would not have locked the school down without knowing why. But I thought an irate parent, a fight, a bird, and a dog. I don't know what I thought, not what was before me.

Darrin Peppard (18:33.514)

Yeah.

Dr. Kacy Shahid (18:34.542)

And so I said all that to say preparation is what probably prevented so many fatalities because I was able to, had a hard sweep and I locked the school down.

When I locked the school down, he was already in the building, but the teachers were able to lock the doors and students were out of the eye of the window. And he did what an active shooter would do. He actually pulled on door handles. And so that he had over 600 rounds and I have 400 students. So you can do the math on that. I would gather that his intention was to do what he was saying and what he was yelling was, you're all going to die.

saying this at the top of his lungs as he was going through the hallway shooting and pulling on door handles. So prepared in a sense that we had done drills, prepared in a sense that I had even done some research around the shooting in Uvalde. I knew how long it took them to enter the building.

But not prepared for this. We were a school that had maybe one to two fights a year. My alma mater, performing arts community where we claimed to be a school that used the arts as our weapon of choice. Where I claimed that our school was the best school in the region and the surrounding counties and no one challenged me. And by the way, I was the best principal and we had the best students and the best teachers and no one ever challenged me. So to have that happen on that day at my...

know, safe haven of a school that I felt like helped me as a young person was definitely, we were not prepared for that and definitely, you know, something that you couldn't have told me that that would have happened on that day. I hope I answered your question without getting too far off. Okay.

Darrin Peppard (20:21.021)

Yeah, no, no, no, I think that's I think that's wonderful. And Kevin, I want to come to you next with you again, something you had said before we hit the record button, but you talked about that preparation, or not necessarily prevention, but really leaning into both mental health, but then also culture within within the school. so maybe build on on what Casey just shared from from that perspective.

Kevin (20:51.124)

First of all, there's been a new lexicon, hardening schools, and then our group has been talking about heartening schools, talking about the heart, which I think Dr. Shaheed exemplifies. She's pure heart, compassion for her kids and what she does and will continue to do to make such an impact. We produced the Principal Recovery Network Handbook, and it was its first iteration

we had a event at Columbine and Mr. DeAngelis took us through Columbine through every detail of what happened that day. It struck me that the two young men knew exactly what would happen during a drill. So when we do these drills, one thing is we can't forget, the perpetrator may be in our midst and know exactly what's going to happen.

You know, those two did the shooting in the cafeteria. They knew where people were going to run. They knew what the lockdown was. They knew how to get to the science teacher that they ultimately killed. They also had two propane tanks in the cafeteria that they were shooting at and had they hit one of those, it would have been much worse than it was. So we can continue to harden.

We can continue to put bulletproof glass and only have one point ventry and all those things. But again, I go back to the only way we're safe is that the person sitting next to us has what Dr. Shaheed mentioned, has that empathy, has that altruism, has that idea that every decision they make is going to be for other people, not about themselves. And until we get to that place and until we change schools,

Dr. Kacy Shahid (22:17.19)

you

Kevin (22:34.964)

which can make that kind of impact and change this world, all these shootings, not just in schools, but everywhere are gonna continue. We've gotta change the heart, we gotta change the soul. And I think we have a possibility. I think every single teacher, especially preschool and kindergarten teachers who see that brightness, that hope in those kids, what happens to it?

Certainly down the line, I mean you can't just blame the schools entirely, but it is our job and we should feel terrible guilt when this kind of thing happens because we're a part of them getting to that place. We either didn't identify the mental challenge, we caused the desperation and we marginalized kids somehow, we created competition so that only one person wins. You know my example is when the the queen wins prom, who loses? All the rest. Why do we have those things in school?

Why don't we allow them just to reach for their potential? Why don't we make schools more about golf, where we're playing against the course, than about basketball, where we're playing up against other people and scoreboards are the most important thing. So I believe our preparation has to be with evolving schools and reforming them.

in a way where we're so intimate with our kids that they feel like they've got a second family, a second location, just what Dr. Shaheed mentioned, a place of hope. My school district, Harrisburg High School, 2 % free and reduced. 2%. Do know how rare and unique that is? The socioeconomics are off the chart. And yet that happened in my school, where a student of desperation came in the office and shot me. So we have a chance.

Darrin Peppard (24:00.488)

Wow. Wow.

Kevin (24:13.726)

to change and really reform schools so that kids feel hope, they feel a pathway, they feel that bright light is on their horizon. That's what we have to get to.

Darrin Peppard (24:26.314)

I really appreciate that. And I agree with you. I mean, I think, you know, for me, for me, as a leader, I always felt like I wanted everyone to feel seen and heard and valued and trusted. And, and, you know, what are the things we can do to make sure that that kids don't feel like a ghost in our school or don't feel like, you know, like they are being marginalized. So so let's do this. Let's let's maybe shift a little bit. You know, Kevin, you

you referred to it, but let's maybe talk a little bit more about the work of the principal recovery network. Maybe kind of the purpose behind the network and then maybe talk a little bit about the guide. know Casey, you actually utilized the guide as you were coming out of or coming through, I won't say out of, coming through the event that you dealt with. So Kevin, I'll come back to you first because you're a charter member of the principal recovery network.

Talk about kind of the mission there and what NASSP and that group are doing to support principles.

Kevin (25:28.734)

Yeah, it's the guide itself, comprehensive with so many colleagues, with so many great ideas who were able to articulate sometimes a step by step, sometimes more of an idealistic and philosophical way to make sure your community can recover. And so that's what the guide is about. It's reactive to a shooting. There are some proactive things that are in there, like Dr. Shaheed mentioned, some of the preparation ideas.

And so you can get on NASSP and you can find that or you can ask for as many of those as you wish. You can use them in any way that you want. So I hope that people might take a look ahead of time, just like Dr. Shaheed mentioned, maybe the universe had some plans for her and so she had prepared in different ways. Perhaps at least looking at that manual gives people ideas to get themselves prepared in case there's this eventuality.

And we could, like I mentioned, we continue to evolve. And I'm very hopeful that we proactively start to touch in other ways of making some reforms and changes that really do discuss that hope that we hope for every child.

Darrin Peppard (26:40.05)

Yeah, but go ahead, go ahead Casey.

Dr. Kacy Shahid (26:43.3)

And I was going to say as the first day of the school shooting, I received an email from Ty Thompson, just letting me know that he understood that I had had this situation happen and he attached the guide. Well, I thought it was junk mail, so I ignored it. I did not open the attachment. I got another email from, I think, Patricia Greer, who's a member. They didn't stop reaching out, and I eventually opened up the communication. It was the

only thing that I had to help me navigate this situation. What happened with us in St. Louis was unprecedented. No one really knew how to support me and what that looked like and what to tell me. So it was as if I had an expert alongside me. And you don't want an expert in this situation, but I had someone who could empathize and who understood. And they weren't just, it wasn't just in the guide. I was able to contact them directly and I was able to

talk to Ty directly and I was able to talk to Patricia, Patricia Greer directly and she also sent me additional information, letters so that I didn't have to think hard about how I was communicating or suggestions of what worked for them and this even though it one might think is only for those who have gone through a tragic situation like ours, I would gather to say that it's just good practical information. How are you communicating with your community? And it was, you know, yes, it was some things

like, okay, you're going to get an influx of mail. And I did. And these are some ways that you can navigate that. Some of that was verbally told to me, some of that was implied in the guide. And the guide is not a thick manual of some sort. It was very practical. The piece that I leaned on initially was amplifying student voices. I had already been on this whole path. I told you this power being seen and really...

I guess elevating student leaders. And so when the staff was very weak, it was the students who emerged and they decided that our shooting happened on October the 24th and on November the 5th, the students had organized a whole community event called a family undivided and they were determined that this tragic situation would not define who we were as a school community. Well, that came from me already having conversations, but the guide itself also encouraged.

Dr. Kacy Shahid (29:09.373)

amplifying student voices, which I did. And they were somewhere organized, they had galvanized themselves and put together this event and controlling Casey, I know you don't think that, I know I look so innocent, I'm so controlling, I wanna know what everyone's doing. I was hands off because I didn't have the capacity to know what, I'm like, I sent a couple of teachers, just make sure that, make sure it makes sense, whatever they're putting together. But for the first time, I mean, if the superintendent asks, what are your students doing? I had no idea. I just trusted that.

Kevin (29:22.752)

Thank

Dr. Kacy Shahid (29:39.376)

they were putting together something that they believe would heal our community. And they just did, and they did just that. But that came out of the encouragement from the guide and from talking to individuals who had gone through something similar. And so the guide was my everything. You asked about the question earlier, what it's like to almost share space with those individuals, what it's like to be in the room. For me, it's spiritual and it's prophetic and it's...

It makes my situation not feel so lonely. And I told them when I'm with you all, there's a kindred spirit and I feel courageous. And then when I come back and I come to St. Louis, because not many people can identify, I sometimes feel alone. I sometimes feel like if I go into too much detail, I've re-traumatized someone or I can't say too much just because of the maybe connectedness.

they may have had with someone in the building. I'm just more cautious.

In that space, I'm courageous. I even have a name. I I'm like the bad A-word school leader of all leaders. Like I could do anything and everything. I'm superwoman in that space. And I'm also a super advocate for change and support and advocating. We went to DC and went to the Capitol to speak to different congressmen and women around the budget that was cut. But educating those congressmen on the budget

and what the budget was supports and how it helps, you know, with trauma informed supports and cares and mental health and awareness to professional development that's needed for schools, whether they go through a crisis or not. And so that type of work, we don't get paid for it. It's just, you know, out of the passion that we have to educate our community. And so I'm grateful for the guide and the members.

Darrin Peppard (31:33.94)

So I guess as we maybe kind of make the turn towards home here a little bit, so much, so much great stuff from both of you. I'm wondering about maybe one piece of advice or one thought that each of you might share with currently seated building administrators. Whether that's related to preparation or even just

You know, as this episode airs in September, most, if not all have now started their new school year and they're into the grind and maybe, you know, maybe the, the honeymoon is already over. You know, they've, they've already had a couple of things happen in their building or whatever. What might just be some, some words that each of you might share with currently seated principals and I'll, I'm going to go.

to Casey first and then Kevin I'll let you wrap it up.

Dr. Kacy Shahid (32:35.388)

My mantra these days is rest.

And not to just get off grid, but I'm no longer driven by grind culture. As a principal, I was grinding when I should not have been. And I think you alluded to that too, Darren, about your experiences as a leader and putting out so many fires and being so reactive that I was probably hurting myself in a lot of ways. I talked about being controlling and wanting to know everything. And I had to relinquish that power involuntarily when

when this tragic situation happened. I could not be everywhere and be all knowing. And I think when you can get to that place as a leader, when you can trust your team and you can trust, and that team is not just your staff, it's your parents, it's your students, and you realize that you don't have to have all the answers, that's when you've arrived as a leader. That's when you can be prepared for the hard work.

And that's what doing the hard work is, is saying, don't know. I say, I don't know so much now that I'm scaring myself. And I'm like, I don't know someone else. Let's see what, and that takes a lot of vulnerability, a lot of humility, being transparent with yourself. And even if I do know, do I need to know? And do I need to make this my problem? After the school shooting, people called me fierce and courageous and strong. And there came a moment when I wanted to be none of those things. And I didn't want that identity.

And so one end was a compliment on the other it said I need I no help and so I choose rest professional rest So I'm not all over it putting out all fires and being so reactive I lean in into the team mentality. I'm collaborative

Dr. Kacy Shahid (34:29.564)

And I think most importantly, I have this idea of being fit to lead in this space. And that's not just physical, but that's also mentally fit. Knowing when enough is enough. We have some leaders and if you're one of those leaders, I'm talking to you. You're at work too late, late at night. Go home because you're not very effective. Cause what's going to happen? Something's going to leave you. It might be that.

beautiful, significant other that's waiting on you to get home, go home. Those beautiful children were in our lives for a moment. And so I now prioritize that my, you know, it's me first, selfishly. It's everyone else second. My family is second. The people at work.

they don't come before me. so I selfishly choose me. I selfishly, rest is my obligation. Taking care of myself is my obligation. And everything else will fall into place. Trusting my team is my obligation. And so that's kind of where I am these days. And that's the advice I would give to leaders new or veteran leaders.

Darrin Peppard (35:39.951)

Excellent advice. No doubt about it. Kevin.

Kevin (35:45.737)

Well, there's so many things, Dr. Pafford, that we spoke of. And again, I want to thank you for having me today. also, great to see you, Dr. Shaheed. I hope our paths cross more than just these few times. I appreciate everything Dr. Shaheed said. I agree completely. You know, we talk a good game. We got to quit giving lip service to things.

We speak about how important relationships are, and yet, where's the intentionality of building those relationships? Where's the intentionality of changing systems so that teachers have to be in that chaos of really getting to know each and every one of their children? What could be more important?

know, the kids who make it, they refer back to a teacher that changed their lives and learned to mentor. But when do we give the teachers time to build those things? And they want to. They really want to make sure that hearts are touching, souls are touching. So we have to find a way to do that. So I would just tell administrators, have the courage, like Dr. Shaheed mentioned, she is, she's superwoman, have the courage to find reforms that really make a difference. And some of those are reshaping time.

so that the time is spent engaging other kids. Writing an individualized program for every staff member and every child so that they feel like they have that value and that voice that Dr. Shaheed spoke of. Making sure that every decision you make is not about efficiency, it's about being effective and engaging. Do those things.

And really have the courage to make changes that we know are right. Don't just keep going along with the flow that then creates this marginalization, this desperation, and then sometimes acts that we had no idea could ever occur. You know, we are only safe when the person next to you feels you're valued.

Kevin (37:39.274)

You know, just one little metaphor, when we drive down the road in South Dakota at 80 miles an hour, because we get to.

When we drive down the road that fast and there's a car coming towards us, we trust that other car completely, inherently. We don't think it's going to veer into us. We should be able to have that exact same kind of trust everywhere in society. That when we walk by somebody, their heart and their soul is in the right place. They're not going to do something violent or something uncivil towards us. Let's get back to that. Let's be drivers all the time. And I think that administration leaders

They have the absolute possibility, but they also need to feel like it's within their will to do these things so that we make real, real changes and ask for real changes that are going to give every kid that hope on the Hill. Let's do that.

Darrin Peppard (38:37.52)

I think that's that is brilliantly brilliantly said, both of you. I cannot thank you enough for joining me here on Leaning into Leadership. This has been a fantastic conversation and I am absolutely confident that everybody who listened to this or watch this on YouTube came away with some incredible incredible things. Thank you again both for joining me here on Leaning into Leadership.

Dr. Kacy Shahid (39:01.916)

Thank you so much for the opportunity.

Kevin (39:02.58)

Honored to be with both of you. Thank you so much.

Darrin Peppard (02:02.781)

man, that, what a powerful episode. I don't even have the words to, to really just describe that, to describe how grateful I am for both Kevin and Casey, how grateful I am to NASSP for sponsoring the Principal Recovery Network and just how grateful I am to be connected to such an amazing organization as NASSP.

Make sure folks that you get down on the show notes get connected with dr. Shaheed and dr. Line Their stories unfortunately Are not just simple isolated events we see this more and more and more so if there's somebody you know that has Struggled with the exact same type of thing has dealt with violence on their campus if they haven't already connected with the principal recovery network and

share this episode with them please so they have the opportunity to make that connection. And now it's time for a pep talk. You know, I don't know if a pep talk is necessarily the right way to say things for this particular episode, but certainly this was an episode that was important. It was an episode that was necessary. And I do think it's an episode that reminds us that those events that happen, and unfortunately they happen far too frequently.

there's still the recovery that happens afterwards. And while so often we think about the recovery of the students, the teachers, the community as well, we should, the individual school leader will go through that recovery as well. I will tell you having, having been a high school principal for a number of years, by far and away, the largest fear that you have as a building administrator is the reality.

that both Dr. Shahid and Dr. Lyon lived through. know that as a school leader, you're not alone. Know that as a school leader, the challenges that you face, whether it's school violence or the day to day struggles and challenges, just know that you're not alone. Make sure that you find other people to have conversations with, to share your struggles, to share your concerns, to

Darrin Peppard (04:28.417)

just simply have an ear to listen to you. Reach out to me. I am happy to be that person for any of you because, principles, you're not alone. You are not walking this journey by yourself. As Dr. Shaheed and Dr. Lyon certainly outlined it, I think you probably heard it in just how Dr. Lyon speaks about Dr. Shaheed.

and vice versa. That camaraderie, that support, principles, we need it. We need it for each other. So make sure you make those connections. Thank you guys so much for joining me for this episode of the Leaning Into Leadership podcast. As always, get out there and have a road to awesome week.