Episode 246: The 8-Step Framework Every Leader Needs for Difficult Conversations

Darrin Peppard (00:00.608)

All right, everybody. Welcome into episode 246 of the Leaning Into Leadership podcast. Coming to you a day later than normal for our midweek, midmonth podcast, usually dropping on Wednesday, but kind of recovering a little bit from an early in the winter battle with a cold. I don't even know I'd quite call it a cold. It might've just been a general malaise, if you will. Nearly seven solid weeks.

on the road with travel, wrapping up last Friday. And so I think I just needed a couple of days to let my body catch up and get healed up. So there you go. I've probably shared more than than I needed to, but I am ready to rock and roll. And I'm super excited about this solo episode because from time to time, I get questions from the leaders that I support all over the country and and sometimes from listeners and viewers like yourself.

about specific topics and today's topic comes from a handful of different conversations, coaching conversations I've had in the last few weeks, along with some work that I did two weeks ago, or no, I'm sorry, last week, see the brain fog from the travel, right? Last week in North Carolina, working with middle school principals through our North Carolina mid-level education program, NCMLE, through our partnership with them.

We had some conversations, all of these different conversations that I'm talking about, revolve around that peace in leadership, that topic that every one of us faces, regardless the walk of life we are in. Every one of us that is in a leadership role has to deal with, even though we don't want to, the hard conversations, tough conversations, crucial conversations, whatever phrase you want to put on those, every single one of us.

have to deal with those tough conversations. You know, in those moments, that's when the emotions run high, that's when the stakes can be particularly high, and honestly, silence or avoidance as the leader may lead to only eroding of trust or damaging the culture that you've worked hard to build. So today I want to really dig into that particular topic. I have a framework that I'd like to walk you through.

Darrin Peppard (02:25.986)

that I think works quite well. And I'm even gonna share a couple scenarios with you from a variety of different leadership scenarios, different leadership areas, so not just in the education space. So let's start here. Let me take you back. My first couple of years as the building principal, in fact, it was probably in year one. Man, I can still see it plain as day. I had an employee who was struggling. I mean, really struggling.

And I knew at a point in time I was gonna have to have a conversation. There was gonna need to be an intervention. And to be honest with you, I think everybody knew that at a point in time I was gonna have to have the conversation. And as the building principle, that really fell to me. That's not something that you delegate. You need to be the one to have those tough conversations when they come around. But in this particular case, I just avoided it. I kept telling myself, hey, if I give them a little space,

you know, maybe this will just magically correct itself. Or sometimes I would just tell myself, is just not the right time to have that conversation. Yeah, well, you know how that played out. Yeah, the issue did not go away. In fact, it got worse. And now I have students who are suffering from it. I have staff members who are really questioning what's going on. There was some friction, I think, within our leadership team about it.

Honestly, I think there were probably people, and rightfully so, that were questioning whether or not I was willing to do the hard stuff as a leader. The truth is that was a moment where one of my early lessons in leadership was taught. And that particular lesson was this. If you want to be a clear leader, you have to have courageous conversations. And if you're going to have courageous conversations,

It requires skill, not just guts, not just bravery. So that's what today is all about, is helping you build the skill, to give you some tools to put in your tool belt to say, hey, I know I gotta have one of these tough conversations. Maybe, just maybe, let me lean into this framework that Darren provided us here on Leaning Into Leadership. Now, before we jump into that,

Darrin Peppard (04:49.237)

I just want to thank our partners at Digicoach. Man, I'm so excited to have this partnership with my friends at Digicoach. I know you've heard me talk about it here on the podcast many, many times, but as a leader, you can't fix what you don't see. You've got to be visible. You've got to be out and about in the workspaces. And as an educational leader, that means you need to be in the classrooms. That's why I love so much partnering with Digicoach.

You see, Digicoach helps leaders simplify the complexity of walkthroughs so they can focus on what really matters most, our people, student outcomes, and the growth of both students and our people. With Digicoach, you get into classrooms, you capture clear data in real time. It's quick, it's easy, it's right there in your hand. And then you turn what you observe into meaningful coaching conversations.

Because the reality is, when it comes to feedback, when it is consistent, when it's supportive, when it's focused on growth, that is when school culture really thrives. If you are ready to make walkthroughs quicker, clearer, and much more purposeful, go to digicoach.com and mention that I sent you for some special partner pricing. Once again, that is digicoach.com. Tell them Darren sent you. All right.

Let's dive into this conversation. Why is it that the crucial conversations are so meaningful? And for that matter, why are they so intimidating? Why are they so scary? See, as you've heard me say many, many times, leadership is about clarity. It's about alignment. It's about your culture. It's about all the things you do. And nothing impacts those more than being able to handle those tough conversations.

When I look back at one of my very, very favorite books, Crucial Conversations, we learned that from the authors of that particular book that three things are true when a conversation genuinely becomes crucial. First, the stakes are high. Second, emotions are strong. And third, opinions are going to vary. So don't avoid these conversations. Do not stay away from them.

Darrin Peppard (07:14.273)

because what we tend to avoid them for, the reasons we think we should stay away from them, number one would be, let's try to prevent conflict. No, you're just reinforcing it if you avoid the conversation. It doesn't prevent conflict. It plants conflict. Maybe it's, I'm worried about the relationship between me and that individual. If you avoid the difficult conversation, in truth, that fractures that relationship.

because you don't care enough to hold them accountable, right? Brene Brown, clear as kind. Going into these conversations, and when I walk through the framework, I think that will be even more clear to you. You've got to be willing to have those conversations and don't worry about is that gonna fracture the relationship, ignoring it, staying away from it, because eventually it'll come to a head. That's what'll fracture the relationship, not sitting down having the conversation. Sometimes it's,

You know, I'm worried about the culture of my school, so I'm gonna, I'm gonna just kinda give that some space and see what happens. Yeah, that erodes your culture, because if you don't do something about it, everybody else is watching. See, that's what happened to me. I thought in that particular case I described earlier, let's give it a little space, maybe it'll magically fix itself, maybe this isn't the right time, people were reporting to me, here's the problem. They were looking for,

leadership. They were looking for somebody to take the action. So people are watching you. So if you think avoiding the hard conversation is going to preserve your culture, unfortunately, that's the opposite. It's going to erode your culture. Again, I've seen it all play out on both sides of it, both having the tough conversations and avoiding them. So let's get into it. Let's talk about this eight-step framework that will help you lead in the hard, hard moments.

those moments when you really need clarity, when you need courage, and you need compassion. Before I jump into the framework, me just say this really quick. I think a common misunderstanding about hard conversations is that you have to be just so firm and so aggressive and so directive. You don't. You really don't.

Darrin Peppard (09:37.698)

I'll be honest with you, I worked under a principal as an assistant principal who was the master of these types of conversations. He would have the tough conversation and people would leave his office patting him on the back and shaking his hand and smiling because of the way he managed those conversations. I learned a lot from him. And honestly, a good chunk of this particular framework comes from what I learned from Dr. Wenling when I worked with him. all right, let's dive into this here. Okay, eight steps.

Eight steps. Crucial Conversations, Leadership Framework. Here are the eight steps. Number one, start with the heart. Number two, master your story. Number three, make it safe. Number four, describe the gap. Number five, invite their perspective. Six, work to have joint problem solving. Seven, clarify the commitments. And eight, follow up. So here we go. Let's start with number one, start with the heart.

What do I mean by that? What I mean by this, and by the way, the first two steps are the pre-work. These are things you do before you get into that conversation. These are things that happen before you even sit down with the individual. This is the, for me, staring at the windshield conversation with myself. Start with the heart.

It includes questions like this. What is it that I want for this employee? What is it that I want for my relationship with this employee? What is it that I want for my organization?

And how am I going to show up for this conversation? You see, everything to do with what your intention is with the conversation will determine the impact you have by having the conversation. Starting with your heart simply means lead with compassion. And the first question I said was, what do want for the employee? Not every hard conversation that I go into, I want the employee to resign. That's not the point.

Darrin Peppard (11:39.327)

I have to frame in my mind what is it that I want for them. And a part of what I want for them is I want them to feel safe in the conversation. I want them to understand that I'm not here to get them. I'm not here to run them out the door, to put a box in front of them and say, okay, let's go load your stuff and get out of here. No, I want them to grow. I want them to improve. I want them to get better. What do I want for a relationship? I want our relationship to get stronger. I want to maybe grow this relationship so that I can help.

coach and support them.

Maybe it's a situation where you have an employee who has some type of a substance abuse problem. What do you want for them? You want them to get healthy. You want them to have an opportunity to save their career. That's a situation I've been through as well. You gotta think about starting with the heart. What is it that I want for the employee? Step number two, master your stories. Again, this is pre-work. This is staring at the windshield time. This is rehearsing it in the office. This is you thinking this through.

We have this tendency as leaders, well no, I'll take that back. We have this tendency as human beings to make assumptions, to fill in the gaps when things are missing. Because the reality is any situation, whatever that situation might be, you only know part of it. And you won't know the full story until you have this conversation. making sure that we master our stories essentially means focus only on the facts.

Don't let the story that's playing in my head. The, man, well she just doesn't care about kids. That's probably not true. The, man, that guy is lazy. That's probably not true. Man, these people are just simply trying to underbuy me as a leader. That's probably not true either. But those are the stories we tell ourselves. So mastering your stories doesn't mean getting your story straight. No, it means...

Darrin Peppard (13:35.905)

Mastering focusing on the facts only and kicking your assumptions to the curb because honestly your assumptions don't have a place in that crucial conversation. They need to stay behind in the office in the car and in your backpack wherever you might keep them in that conversation. They're not welcome, right? Instead, think about what did I actually observe? What was actually reported to me? What is it that I'm assuming so then I can start to separate things? What else might be true?

about this situation. This will set you up to go into the conversation with a curious mind. This curiosity honestly creates connection between the two of you. Assumptions, those are going to lead to conflict. Because if you come in with assumptions and you talk about those assumptions, that's where you may offend them, you may say something that isn't true, whatever the case may be. Step number three.

Make it safe. This is when you're actually in the conversation. This is the first thing you do in the conversation. Whether you're meeting on their turf or in your office, I would advise you, right along with making it safe, meet on their turf whenever possible. Extreme heavy personnel situations need to happen in your office. Otherwise, make it happen in their space because they're going to feel safer at that space than coming to you. All right, one thing, they're in the office with you. They may automatically, you

have the BP go up, have the pulse go up, right? Maybe get a little bit flushed in the face just simply because they're nervous. In their space, they're a little bit more comfortable. So make it safe. But it's also about what you say to open the conversation. Think about how you thought back at step number one, what is it you want for them? What is it you want for the organization and how are you going to show up? So here, I think you want to try to work toward creating a

mutual purpose. Now we both want what's best for our organization. We both want what's best for our students. We both want what's best for our community.

Darrin Peppard (15:42.675)

Adding to that, I value you. I appreciate the work you do. You are an important part of our organization. You are a fantastic classroom teacher. You are a wonderful salesperson. You are such a great installer. Again, whatever walk of life you're in. But creating that safety, that's what opens the door for some dialogue. Maybe even

even saying something along the lines of, you hey, I'm not here to blame you. I'm just here to have a conversation about what I've observed, what it is that was reported, that type of thing. Make it, make it a safe conversation. Step number four, describe the gap. No labels, no judgments, no emotional language, but instead, here's what we've agreed to. Here's what I've observed. Here's the gap.

Here's what we've agreed to. That may be, here's what the policy says. Or as a collective staff, we have agreed to do, fill in the blank, whatever it might be. Even if it's just simply, know, my clear expectations of everyone and everybody heard and understood and agreed to abide by were these, whatever it is. Here's what I've observed. Stick to the facts. Just simply stick to the facts. It may be, again, this is what was reported to me.

or this is what was shared with me. Stick to the facts. Then use the gap as third person or as that third point, if you will. Here is what we agreed to. Here is what was reported. And here's the gap between those two. So we're not blaming them right now. We're not saying anything about them. We're just simply saying there's a gap between what we said we were gonna do and what was actually observed.

Now let's talk about the gap. Step number five, invite their perspective. Just ask them, help me understand what's going on. Can you explain the gap between these two places? What am I missing? What is your perspective? Whatever allows them to feel like they're welcome in. I mean, let's be honest, you can't fix what you don't fully understand. You need to get their side of the story. You need to hear from them what's actually happening.

Darrin Peppard (18:09.331)

Also from a legal perspective, you have to give them due process. This is essentially their due process place, but that's not how we're approaching it. We're not saying, give me your written statement. It's here's what we agreed to. Here's what was observed. Tell me about the gap. Give me your perspective. By inviting in their perspective now, number one, you should see their shoulders come down. They should be like, okay, here's what happened from my point of view.

you're giving them the opportunity to give you their point of view. It's important. And that moves you into step six, which is joint problem solving. Once you have their perspective and you've got everything, now you have all the facts. Now, shift the conversation away from what happened to the future. Could be something just as simple as asking them, what do you think our next step should be? Or what kind of support or training do you need?

What help do you need from me? Or how do we prevent this from happening again in the future? When we give them the opportunity to design their own solution or to put ideas on the table with us for that solution, man, that's gonna go so much further. That's what we're really looking for. They're gonna be invested in the solution, not simply given a directive, go do this or else. We've all been in those kinds of conversations too.

They don't go where he wanted to go.

Step seven, clarify the commitments, be specific, get it in writing, make sure it's time bound. What exactly is gonna change? By when will it change? What will success look like? And how are we gonna know? So those conversations, that's part of that conversation with that person. What exactly is gonna change? When will it change? What does success look like? How are we gonna know?

Darrin Peppard (20:11.147)

clarify those commitments because if you don't, it's just a good talk. And hey, a good talk, you might walk out of there going, yeah, I felt good about that. But did you actually?

actually get to what you hoped for back in step one. This is what I want for the employee. This is what I for the organization. Did you get there? Without making commitments, it's not going to happen. I would highly suggest this. When you are making the commitment, when you are on that how will we know and by when, put a follow-up meeting on the calendar with them right there. Get it on the calendar so there's no question, hey, I'm going to come back next Friday and we're going to have another conversation and just check in and see how it's going.

put it on the calendar so they know, hey, there's some accountability here. We're gonna follow up. Then when you get back to your office, send them a follow-up email. So critical for a multitude of reasons. But number one, clear commitments. You're sending that email, summarizing the conversation, you're talking about what's gonna change, by when it's gonna change, what success could look like, how are we gonna know? I've set up this follow-up meeting with you.

If you have any further questions, if you need any further support, please, please, please let me know that kind of thing. Number one.

It's documentation that the conversation took place. It's important to do it. It really is. Because in the moment, they may not remember everything that was said. This gives you an archive of here's what our conversation was. And if they don't agree, they can certainly email back and say, well, yeah, but I think this is what we said here. That's fine. Send that follow up email, which leads right into number eight, follow up. Follow up signals to them, hey, this conversation mattered to me. This conversation is important.

Darrin Peppard (21:58.024)

You want to make sure, again, that you've set that follow-up meeting. You want to reinforce progress so you know what it is you're looking for. Stop by even before when that meeting is scheduled and see if what it is. Maybe they've been showing up to work lately, or showing up late to work.

Go check in in the area, not the next day, but maybe a couple days later. Just go check in see if they're on time. And if they are, just say, hey, you know what, good job. I want you to know, I appreciate you. That's it. You're following up. If there are setbacks, address them immediately. You go down a couple days later and they show up late again. Time to have another conversation. Document whatever when it's necessary. Accountability is going to really be an important piece when it comes to.

your culture. All right, so those are the eight steps that I think really will help you move through these crucial, difficult, hard conversations. Start with the heart, master your story, make it safe, describe the gap, invite their perspective, joint problem solve, clarify commitments, and then finally follow up. So let's apply that to a few detailed scenarios. Just something kind of simple.

I'll kind of model that for you so you have an opportunity to kind of process that and think about it. Our first scenario is going to come from education. Obviously, that's where the bulk of my background is, so I want to start in the education space. In this particular scenario, you have a staff member who's not following safety protocols. So the employee, Ms. Collins, has been skipping out on her hallway supervision, which obviously creates safety concerns. Now, obviously, the pre-work,

What assumptions do I have versus what are the facts? Three of the last six days, Ms. has not been in the hallway. That's fact. Ms. Collins just doesn't seem to care about being in the hallway. That's an assumption. You've got to do that pre-work. What is it that I want for the employee? Well, number one, I want her to actually show up in the hallway. It's important. That's what I want for her. That's what I for the organization. But I also want her to take some ownership of that. Okay. Make it safe.

Darrin Peppard (24:16.957)

Start the conversation, Ms. Collins, the relationships that you build with students are so powerful and I genuinely value them. I know how much you care about our kids. Then it's time to describe the gap. We've agreed that all staff supervise hallways during transitions. This week, I've observed three transitions where your hallway was unsupervised.

Darrin Peppard (24:43.753)

What's going on during that time? What's making it difficult to be out there? Just grab the gap, invite her perspective. And she may say something like, you know, she's busy prepping materials or responding to parent messages, okay, whatever her response might be. So joint problem solve. Hey, let's look at what really has to happen during that window of time. What's really important versus what maybe could be done a little bit later.

You know, what can wait until after we're done with the transitions? What support might you need in order to help you be present? And then simply clarify the commitment. So starting today, you'll be out during all transitions, and I will check in Friday morning to see how it's going. Get back to the office, send a follow-up email. Second one, this is a construction one. This one, you have a crew leader who is disrespecting team members. Man, this could happen in any.

any leadership scenario, but we're going to use construction this time. So Nate is going to be our individual and he is technically excellent, but Nate has a problem snapping at his coworkers. So where do we begin? We start with making it safe. Nate, your skill is unmatched and your crew looks right to you for leadership. My goal is to support you.

So the crew performs at its best.

In the last two weeks, I've watched frustration boil over on your part. As example, Tuesday, you told George, how many times do I have to explain this right in front of everyone? And honestly, with a very loud tone, the whole crew honestly shut down their work. What's creating that level of frustration? Is there pressure you're feeling that I might not be seeing? Maybe it's deadlines. Maybe he's got rookies on his crew.

Darrin Peppard (26:44.282)

Maybe there's some personal stress that's leading to this, right? But Nate is now going to share because we're asking him to give us his perspective. Then let's join problem solve. What would help you communicate expectations without shutting everyone down? How can I support you with your workload or with crew training that might help folks get moving forward and maybe allow you to keep the tone down? There you go. Then follow up.

Send them an email. Here's a commitment we've made. Here's what I'm gonna check back in with you. All right, so, hey, Nate, moving forward, you're gonna address mistakes that are done privately whenever you can, and you're gonna use a calm tone. Let's check in next Thursday at lunch. We'll see how it's going. That's how you wrap up that one. And then the third one, let's talk about healthcare. In this particular case, you have a nurse who at the end of her shift,

is skipping some of the steps in the required handoff. In this case, the nurse's name is Jordan. She's an excellent nurse, but again, skipping some critical handoff fields. Make it safe. Jordan, patients trust you and your care is exceptional. This conversation is about supporting the team and ensuring all patient safety. To scrap the gap, in the last four handoffs,

medication updates and assessments were missing. This forces the next nurse to have to track down all of that information. What's happening during handoff time and what's making it difficult for you to complete the full report? She may say something like, you know, the report to me feels redundant or, you know, I just feel like my workflow is super rushed at the end of my shift. Okay, well, let's joint problem solve. What changes could help?

Is there something we could do to streamline part of your workflow or something to do with how we could adjust handoff timing for you so that all of these reports can be done complete? Then clarify the commitment. So Jordan's starting today. Full handoff routines will be completed. We're going to get back together Monday, 10 a.m., and check in on your progress. Send the follow-up email. Check in on Jordan.

Darrin Peppard (29:08.926)

Now, when we look at these scenarios, and again, they're across different industries, there's different pressures, different skill sets that are required, but there's a pattern that is identical, regardless of what the scenario is. First and foremost, leadership is about people. You've heard me say it on the show a whole bunch, we're in the people business. Second part, that is a common theme throughout, people work requires

really courageous clarity requires you to be willing to step into these conversations. Again, avoiding tough conversations doesn't protect anyone. It just drags out the discomfort. It really does negatively impact your culture. And ultimately, it's going to keep your team from reaching the potential that you genuinely believe they can get to. So here is your challenge this week. Identify one tough conversation that you've been avoiding.

Write the facts versus the story. Just sit down and do this exercise. Write the facts versus the story that you have been telling yourself. And then script out your opening two sentences. How do I lead into this conversation? What will I say to make it safe?

That's a big piece. Then schedule that conversation. Use the eight step framework. Every courageous conversation is going to strengthen your leadership. And it's like pumping iron for your leadership muscles. Go have those tough conversations. Don't be afraid of them. Be courageous, be calm, be empathetic, be open, be curious.

That's what I've got for you today, folks. Thank you so much for joining me here on the Leaning Into Leadership podcast. If this episode helped to support your leadership, I would love to connect to you. Go to darrinpeppard.com or roadtoawesome.net for coaching opportunities, keynotes, leadership workshops, and of course, the awesome leadership guide. Share this episode with someone who leads, someone who is navigating those tough situations, or someone who just simply wants to grow.

And if you enjoyed today's conversation, please leave a review, make sure you're subscribed, and get out and share this episode with as many people as you possibly can, because it really helps us to reach more and more leaders across every sector when you, our leaders, our followers, our listeners, are sharing our work. So until next time, get out there, have a Road to Awesome week.