Episode 247: You Don’t Have to Leave to Lead - A Conversation with Dr. Chris Jochum

Darrin Peppard (00:00.718)

All right, everybody. Welcome into episode 247 of the Leaning Into Leadership podcast. Have you ever noticed how when we talk about leadership, sometimes we talk about it as if it only counts when someone has some type of a title, principal, CEO, department lead, whatever it might be. For most people, including students, leadership equals a position.

Some fantastic research done by my friend, Dr. Frank Radneski. He interviewed over 10,000 students between the ages of 11 and 23. And what he found was over 95 % of those students equated leadership, specifically with a title.

Then he took it one step further. He interviewed their teachers. Over 90 % of those teachers, same thing, leadership is connected to a title. You and I both know that that's not exactly true. We know better than that. Leadership starts long before a title ever shows up. It begins with influence, it begins with initiative, and just simply the willingness to step forward.

That's why I'm so excited about today's conversation with my friend Dr. Chris Yocum. His new book reminds us that you don't have to leave the classroom in order to be a leader. In fact, some of the most powerful leadership in schools happen without a title at all. Now, before we dive in, I want to take a moment and once again thank our partners at Digicoach. And to be honest, today's episode connects perfectly with what they do.

Let's be real, strong leadership starts with strong visibility. You can't coach what you can't see. That's what I love about Digicoach. Digicoach helps schools simplify classroom walkthroughs so leaders can spend less time wrestling with paperwork and more time focused on real instructional growth. With Digicoach, you get clear real-time data from your walkthroughs, immediate feedback cycles that build trust and support,

Darrin Peppard (02:11.295)

A system that removes the noise and lets you focus on what matters most, your students and instruction. And you get tools that help your entire coaching culture really thrive. Whether you're a principal, AP, instructional coach, or a district leader, Digicoach gives you a clearer picture of what's happening in your classrooms. And that clarity is what really drives improvement. Visit digicoach.com and mention that I sent you

for special partner pricing. Once again, that's digicoach.com. All right, let's get into this conversation. Today, we're talking about influence, impact, and what it means to lead from the seat you're in. This is, you don't have to leave to lead a conversation with Dr. Chris Yocum. I'll see you on the other side.

Darrin Peppard (00:01.016)

So there was a time in my career when I first got tapped on the shoulder. We talked about being tapped on the shoulder here on the show many, many times, go all the way back to a conversation I had with Dr. Randy Russell. And we think about that tap on the shoulder being when you first felt that call to leadership. I've talked about mine a whole bunch of times, how my first principal, Betsy Parker, tapped me on the shoulder between years two and three and said, Darren, you need to think about being a leader.

For me, thinking about being a leader meant thinking about being a school administrator, because that's what most of us in education connect leadership to, is some type of a title. It's interesting too that our students do the same thing. In a study for his most recent book, Dr. Frank Ryneski interviewed over 10,000 students, middle school through undergraduate, and what he found...

in talking to students, again, over 10,000, about what it means to be a leader, 95 % of students connected leadership with some type of a title. Even more interesting in that study from Dr. Radniewski, 90 % of the teachers of those kids did the same thing. They identified leadership connected to some type of a title, department chair, principal, superintendent, assistant principal.

instructional coach, whatever it is, the title. But the reality is you don't have to leave the classroom to go be a leader. You can be a leader on your campus. And today, that is exactly what we're going to talk about. We have a repeat guest here on the Leaning Into Leadership podcast, Dr. Chris Yocum. Chris was on, folks, you got to dig into the archives and I'll link it in the show notes for you, but he was on episode 33.

of the Leading Into Leadership podcast quite some time ago. But today, Chris is here to talk about his new book, You Don't Have to Leave to Lead, which is a practical guide to teacher leadership. So let's dig into that topic. But first, let's do this. Chris, welcome back into the Leading Into Leadership podcast.

Chris Jochum (02:18.28)

Hey, thank you. Always great to be back. Certainly. First time I've been a repeat guest on a podcast. So looking forward to the conversation.

Darrin Peppard (02:27.5)

Yeah, 100%. So I kind of shared a little bit there, but Chris, maybe for those who aren't going to go digging back into episode 33, give them just a quick snippet of who Dr. Chris Yolkham is.

Chris Jochum (02:40.568)

Well, currently the chair of a large teacher preparation program at Fort Hay State University in Kansas. We have an online program. We have an on campus. So very fortunate there. Started my career in K-12 as an English as a second language teacher, then later as a high school Spanish teacher. And then for about two years now, I've also been doing some speaking, consulting, coaching through my LLC. So.

Very, very happy to again just be part of the conversation today and hopefully add value to others.

Darrin Peppard (03:14.956)

Yeah, absolutely. so folks, you've heard me talk quite a few times here on the podcast about the course that I teach at Fort Hayes State University. I guess for want of a better phrase, Chris is kind of my boss, I guess, at Fort Hayes State because he is the chair of the department that I get the opportunity to do that adjunct course through, is certainly a lot of fun. Let's talk about Fort Hayes for just a minute. Let's talk about that work.

Chris Jochum (03:27.362)

You

Darrin Peppard (03:44.527)

And maybe let's talk about it from this angle. You were a K-12 educator, but you've been in higher ed for quite some time. Certainly there are K-12 educators who go into higher ed. There are higher ed folks who come to K-12. What were some of the interesting transitions or maybe now as you lead this department and you teach future educators, what are some things

that you've noticed or you've discovered about higher ed and how it can possibly impact K-12.

Chris Jochum (04:20.6)

Well, the first thing I will say, it's reaffirmed and for the K-12 educators, admin listening, it's reaffirmed that the hardest working people in the education field are in K-12 without a doubt. So hats off to you. Thank you for the great work that you keep doing. What I've also learned is that with some intentionality when we are talking about preparing teachers,

There are great things that can happen when we in higher ed and those in K-12 come together. And certainly the best work happens when those of us in K-12 come to those of you in higher ed, come to those of you in K-12 saying, we don't have all the answers. You're on the ground floor of it every day. What do we need to know? What can we do differently to help the teachers?

that we are sending to your building both as observers, student teachers, and then new employees. So that's the biggest takeaway is if you're in higher ed and you train teachers, work with your K-12 schools. Let them kind of set the pace because they understand what's going on. And once you're out of K-12, it moves so quickly that it's really easy to kind of lose track of what's really going on on a day-to-day basis.

Darrin Peppard (05:45.487)

Yeah, for sure. There's no question about that. Folks, I would tell you the work that is being done at Fort Hay State. I'm not saying this because Chris is on the podcast. This is something I tell people all the time. Not too long ago, I keynoted a state principal conference about two weeks ago. And in a breakout session that I did, I asked, know, hey, how many of you are, are like desperately looking for teachers? I was actually doing my session on culture first classrooms, which I think you know, Chris, and certainly the listeners know that book.

came out of it was born out of teaching advanced classroom management TL 860 at Fort Hay State. But I tell people all the time that if you're if you're looking for teachers. Fort Hay State that there's not a shortage of teachers coming through Fort Hay State. A lot of universities, the one that I that I graduated from two different times. The University of Wyoming not cranking out teachers anymore. What is it about Fort Hay State that?

you just keep having them come through the door and not just at the undergrad level, but the second career folks. This semester alone, I have like, I don't know, 58 students in advanced classroom management. I mean, wow. So what's the secret at Fort Hays? And maybe you don't want to give away the secret, I don't know.

Chris Jochum (06:58.702)

Well, well, no, I tell you, I thank you for the kind words. and, know, while there's always metrics and bean counters that would certainly like to see more, we are, we are very fortunate. I think the secret, it's the people, we have really, really good people. And as you say, our staff will T we have a, because we are literally all across the country and even in a few foreign countries.

We have a team of people that oversees those placements. We have a team that works on recruiting. We have wonderful faculty members, both full-time and, as you know, are part-time. And I think it is really just a commitment to wanting to serve the profession. All of us were once there, least the professional, the teaching side of the table. And I think it's wanting to serve and give back in a way by preparing wonderful teachers.

And so if it is a secret, I think it is just the day to day decisions and habits of our culture and our climate to where that's just kind of how we do things. Very, very hardworking people, very, very dedicated people. And we're in a culture where we are default is often to say why not instead of why. So also very entrepreneurial and innovative. So that might be part of it.

Darrin Peppard (08:26.136)

Certainly. Yeah. Well, and I know, you know, I'm not the only one doing it, but, you know, people are certainly singing Fort Hayes praises pretty much everywhere. I told this group in Wyoming two weeks ago, if you're looking for teachers, you better go to Fort Hayes State, make sure you get to their on-campus event because, you know, I there's a handful of states out there that might just have enough in terms of here's what we can pay you to pry some of those kids out of the state of Kansas. So you just...

Chris Jochum (08:40.078)

awesome

Darrin Peppard (08:55.36)

You just never know. so yeah, absolutely. So, okay, so let's, let's talk about teacher leadership. Certainly. I know that's something that's been a passion of yours for a long time, but of course it led to this brand new book. Those of you watching the video on YouTube are able to see the cover of this awesome book. You don't have to leave to lead a practical guide to teacher leadership. Before we talk about the book, let's talk about why that is a topic.

Chris Jochum (08:56.856)

Yeah. Yeah. Look us up. Happy to chat.

Darrin Peppard (09:24.415)

that is important to you.

Chris Jochum (09:27.458)

Well, and you touched on it at the intro. I kind of backed into teacher leadership. So obviously in my current role, I've always been a student of leadership. I've had great leadership mentors. I wrote a book about five years ago on department chair leadership and higher ed. And as I was working on that book, I had an opportunity to teach a special topics class.

And so it just kind of intersected that I decided to look into leadership, educational leadership, but while it's still in the classroom. And what I really found through teaching that and through interacting with students, and I taught that to future teachers, I taught it to seasoned educators that were, you know, coming back for graduate credit for research, whatever, is that while we know there isn't a one single answer to fix

anything in education, be it test scores, know, retention of faculty, recruiting. I do think that an overlooked aspect and a very significant aspect is the idea of letting our teachers know that they are some of the most influential people in the building. And in doing so, it empowers them to understand that, as I say, they're the CEO of their classroom. And so I started, the best way to learn something is to teach it.

So as I was teaching that course more and more, after about six years of teaching it, the students had really wonderful feedback and said, this should be a book. And so I kind of sat down and really codified all of the things that I had been teaching, know, kind of enhanced the research base that I knew was there. And it's kind of nice to have proof of concept first through teaching and speaking, and then the book as a result of that.

as opposed to maybe someone has an idea, they write the book and then, which is fine, and then, you know, the speaking and the teaching comes after. So that was kind of the impetus or the origin story of why and how I got into that. Because when I would train other leaders and talk to them, I would always say, listen, leadership is a distinctly different calling.

Chris Jochum (11:41.986)

And you don't need the title to lead. And so I really had to take some of my own advice and say, you train teachers for a living. What does that look like in the classroom? And so that's how the book came about.

Darrin Peppard (11:55.299)

Yeah, so one of the things you talk about in the book that I like just so very much and you were in a way alluding to it. So I think this kind of takes us right where I'd like to go next. It's fairly early in the book, but you talk about how teacher leadership is not one more thing. It's not something else you're putting on your plate. Now, certainly when it comes with a title, department chair, PLC lead,

part-time instructional coach, then yes, maybe it is. But I like how you go at that mindset that to be a leader from the classroom, it doesn't have to be one more thing. So spend a little time on that topic.

Chris Jochum (12:40.83)

Thanks for asking because the natural response with teachers who are working so hard and if we use the analogy of their plates are filled up it is it's preservation right they're setting a boundary by saying can I really take on yet another thing and so my response my analogy to that when I've worked with k-12 faculty and staff is I literally say how many of you have sport programs and they all do

And then I ask how many of you have a weight room? And of course they all do. And then I say, well, in that weight room, do you also have a basketball hoop or do you have a weight room just for, for, for these athletes, et cetera? And they don't. so the analogy that I use is there are some things that we just have to do because it makes us stronger and it makes us better. And so just like we need our athletes to exercise, lift weights, follow proper nutrition.

It's not one more thing to ask your athletes to do that. It's actually strengthening the core of who they are. Teacher leadership is akin to that. This is not necessarily some program that I'm giving you and then for the next nine weeks you have to document how you're using three of my objectives in every lesson and not that there's anything wrong with that. This is akin to strengthening who you are at your core as an educator.

Because these concepts, which is personal development first, which then leads into professional development, they're going to help you in terms of addressing conflict, not only with students, but with faculty, with parents, looking at how you are a leader outside of the classroom. Look at how you, every day, do things without thinking that Fortune 500 companies spend a lot of money training their CEOs to do.

And so that's why I am pretty passionate about letting teachers and especially administrators know upfront. While this book can be used and should be used as professional development and could be used in a workshop and a book study, this isn't one more thing as yet an add-on that we have to document and put on our plates. This is in many ways strengthening the plate that all of those things that we have to carry as teachers every day is sitting on.

Darrin Peppard (15:01.87)

Yeah, for sure. You know, something else that you talk about in here, and again, I think this connects really, really well with that too, is you identify five goals that really leaning into building that teacher leadership on your campus. And that's one of the things I love about this book. This isn't just the seated teacher reading this book to understand, okay.

Chris Jochum (15:15.214)

Yeah. Yeah.

Darrin Peppard (15:30.094)

I don't have to leave to lead. This is also a book for school leaders, for district leaders to think about how do I go about increasing teacher leadership on my campus. And so these five goals to me really, really stood out wearing my superintendent and principal hat and thinking about why would I want to increase teacher leadership? Why is that important as a leader?

Chris Jochum (15:48.312)

Mm-hmm.

Darrin Peppard (15:57.793)

Now, let's be honest before I talk about the five goals. If leaders are questioning why they would want to strengthen teacher leadership, on, let's realistically come on. Of course you want to. But let's talk about how you identify these five goals. I'm gonna list these five goals and Chris, for the sake of time, let's not talk about all five. I want you to pick one or two and just really get after it. So goal number one, just improving student outcomes. Goal number two, improving

Chris Jochum (16:21.57)

Okay.

Darrin Peppard (16:26.604)

the access of high-need students to effective teachers. Three, extend the careers of teachers looking for growth opportunities. Four, expand the influence of effective teachers on their peers. And five, ensure a role for teachers as leaders in policy decisions that affect practice. Powerful, powerful stuff. Again, pick one or two, and let's run with it.

Chris Jochum (16:50.627)

Yes.

Chris Jochum (16:54.028)

Well, and again, as you mentioned, those weren't things that I just pulled out of the air. I have research to support that. I think the first one is student outcomes, right? At the end of the day, everything that we do, and I know in your leadership, in your writing, your speaking, your coaching, people that follow you understand that ultimately we're all on the same team and we're here to serve students. So I think the biggest one is this is going to help students.

Because I always say the best way to improve or enhance an organization is to improve or enhance or to help the leader. And whether that is an NFL team that's not pleased with their record and instead of replacing 52 players, they get a new coach, or it's an organization that says, hey, we have wonderful teachers, we have wonderful admin, but let's be more effective. And if we improve, start with training up leaders, start with empowering them, it's going to help everyone.

So the student outcomes is huge, okay? And we know, we're social scientists, even if you can affect statistically a small part of an outcome, that's a big deal. And so I think that's really important. The other one is when we talk about extending the career of a teacher, because the other ones kind of fall into that. We're giving them access to other opportunities or expanding what they want to do because...

What I've also found is there's research on as human beings, once we have done something for about a decade or so, it's not that we tire of it, but we want some additional, I guess, challenges and rewards. Dare I say we start thinking about what legacy am I going to leave? And what I have found in my research and doing this and training people on this is this gives classroom teachers who really don't want to leave the classroom.

This gives them another outlet or perspective. I always want to give people permission and perspective in anything I teach them. This gives them another perspective to say, you know what? I have a lot more in the tank, so to speak. There are things that I can do, even if I'm already a rock star in the classroom, there might be things that I could be doing serving on that curriculum committee. Maybe I could maybe mentor some of the newer teachers in the building.

Chris Jochum (19:13.898)

My input matters, maybe I should when the board office asks for input on something. You know what? I'm prepared and I'm qualified to give that input. And so I think, Darren, those are kind of the two biggies that really stood out to me were helping students and then also, I guess, students and helping teachers.

Darrin Peppard (19:35.809)

Yeah, for sure. And so let's go back to the student outcomes one for just a moment. Something you and I talked about a couple of weeks ago, you shared an article with me that goes back to one of my favorite books, Maxwell's 21 Irrefutable Laws of Leadership. And law number one is the law of the lid. And that's essentially what you're talking about. That if you want to increase success, you got to raise the lid of the leader. I mean, I can tell this story, but maybe you run a little bit with that because

Chris Jochum (19:44.792)

Mm-hmm.

Chris Jochum (19:53.964)

Yeah. Yeah.

Chris Jochum (20:00.106)

Yes.

Darrin Peppard (20:05.378)

What you're talking about is raising the lid.

Chris Jochum (20:08.524)

Yes, yes. And so if you work with people, regardless of your title, you should read John Maxwell's 21 Irrefutable Laws. So what that essentially says is if we quantify it, is we all have a number on us, right? We all have a lit or a maximum. And by and large, if let's say if you have somebody that's an eight as a leader, for the most part, they will only be comfortable.

working with and recruiting people that are seven or lower. And conversely, if somebody that is maybe a nine or a 10 comes on board with an eight, two things usually happen. They either just become complacent and put their head down and deal with it because oftentimes the things that they want to share aren't really received or they move on. Now, the positive side to that is we can all improve our lid, whatever that is, right? And as Maxwell says,

Improve your strengths, don't improve a weakness, right? I'm going to improve my strength as a leader. I'm not going to go take up painting because maybe I'll go from a one to three as a painter, but you know what? I could probably go from a seven to a nine as a leader. And so with that concept is every classroom has a CEO called the teacher. And when we raise the lid, you talk about building capacity in schools. It's not just for the next teacher. Let's build up the people that are already in the building. And so

When we collectively, all boats rise, raise that lid on a teacher through their practice, all of the things that make up a teacher, their pedagogy, their content knowledge, their classroom management, we're essentially improving the organization. And in this sense, it's the kiddos in the room and the extent to which they feel valued, seen, and heard, and ultimately are academically successful. And I'll just throw out that to me, academically,

successful isn't everyone gets an A, it's how much did we move that needle for each kid.

Darrin Peppard (22:06.112)

Absolutely. And folks, you have not read 21 Irrefutable Laws, another way to look at what Chris is talking about here, if you want a legit, like, here's a great example of the law of the lid, just think about Apple computers. And, you know, the original founder of Apple computers is Wozniak, not Jobs. And Woz, for all of his intelligence, was a low-lid leader.

And that lid kind of puts a cap on what success can be. You know, if you're a three as a leader, your success is never going to be higher than a two. But what happens when he brings Steve Jobs into the fold, who's on a scale of one to 10, he's like a 37 for the lid of a leader. And of course, Apple just goes to the roof. Why? High lid leader, high levels of success. So as a classroom teacher, if you're a seven or an eight, man, if you could go to a nine or a ten.

You know, just think about how that success comes up with you. As you said, all boats rise. Really, really powerful stuff right there. Let's just maybe talk about one more thing in the book and I'll let you kind of decide where we go. I can think of four or five more things that I'd love to talk about that our time is starting to evaporate before our eyes. So maybe just talk about one more thing or maybe a hope you have by publishing this book.

Chris Jochum (23:19.074)

Yeah. Yeah.

Darrin Peppard (23:33.016)

that you would love to see as an outcome.

Chris Jochum (23:36.374)

Yeah, well, again, my big hope is, and you touched on it when we talked about the big goals of, you know, the five goals. Ultimately, I want to give teachers something that can affect students. And along that is, I tell the story in the book about the proverb of the field of diamonds, and you can read that or look it up, it's well known. But essentially, it reminds us that any time we want to solve a problem,

Instead of our default saying it the solution must be out there. Let's let's look around our own feet. Okay And my hope is this will not only empower teachers But it'll also also maybe give some of those formal administrators perspective and permission to say you know what? Instead of finding more teachers What could I do to maybe grow or enhance the ones that are already in the building the ones that are already in my backyard?

And I also hope that through the concepts because the first few chapters kind of laid the groundwork so they might seem a little more academic although I wrote this to be very conversational. Most of the book I wrote as a one-on-one workshop, right? This is something that will help you. You can use it as a book study. You can expand it throughout your district. So in addition to helping students, I want this to help teachers and I always say if you can envision a bell curve.

And on the left side of that curve are teachers that are maybe one bad day, one bad something away from leaving the profession altogether. And then on the right side, you have those that are really, like you said, they got the tap on the shoulder and they might want to be a principal. And please, we need wonderful principals. We need people to go into that for the right reasons too. Those on the left side of the bell curve, I am hoping that this gives them perspective and permission to say, you know what?

I have what it takes. Teaching is hard because it's hard. Average humans, mere mortals, can't do what most teachers do, so you just gotta understand that it's hard. The best athletes in the world still break a sweat, so it's okay. And it gives them perspective and permission to stay in this and maybe change their perspective. Those that are on the other end, and you've worked with them as well, Darren, they love teaching and they don't want to leave their kids, and maybe what they don't realize is,

Chris Jochum (26:00.312)

they can have an even broader impact by becoming that assistant principal, becoming that dean of students, is it gives them the perspective and permission to say, hey, I understand leadership in a way I never have. I understand what instructional leadership is. I understand what it means to lead my colleagues. And I think maybe I want to look at down the road becoming that principal. Or it might affirm for them that, you know what, their bucket is filled in the classroom.

So I want to help students and then I want to help teachers that are either on one end of maybe leaving altogether or on the other end of it gives them the perspective and permission. If they leave the classroom to go into administration, they're doing it kind of with the open eyes and the proper mindset.

Darrin Peppard (26:45.782)

Yeah, excellent stuff right there. Love that so much. Our time has flown by and that has brought us to this place in the show where I ask you the same question I ask everybody on this podcast. This is the Leaning Into Leadership podcast. So in addition to everything that you've just talked about, Chris, how are you leaning into leadership right now?

Chris Jochum (27:01.496)

Okay.

Well, I'm leaning in by continuing to challenge myself. So, you know, as a mentor of mine, when I was writing my first book, shortly thereafter, I called this individual with, you know, a question, a leadership question. And he reminded me, he said, Chris, it's in your book. It's in your book, right? You know the answer. And so what I am reminding myself is what do I need to be doing?

to continue to make sure that I'm sharpening that saw, that I am following my own advice, that I am continuing to be a leader that grows. Because I would like, you know what, my goal, if you're listening, if you've read the chair book and hopefully you'll get this new book, my next goal is to write a leadership book that is really not specific to either K-12 or higher ed, and it's just general because leadership is leadership.

And so I guess I'm leaning in by doubling down on, hey, if you now have a broader platform to where people are looking to you and asking you for leadership advice, then I owe it to them and owe it to myself to make sure that I'm continuing to grow as a leader. Because like my philosophy, I can't grow them if I don't continue to grow myself. So that's my personal challenge and how I'm leaning in is I need to keep growing and getting better in my own right as a leader.

Darrin Peppard (28:31.104)

Absolutely great stuff. Just continue to raise that lid, man. That's what it is all about. So Chris, people will want to get in touch with you. They will definitely want to get a copy of the book. What's the best way for people to connect with Dr. Chris Yocum?

Chris Jochum (28:46.26)

Easiest way you can go to my website CJleadership.com You can learn more about me. You can click on connect or you can shoot me an email at chris at CJleadership.com So that's the name of my LLC Love to connect with you. Obviously the book it's through road to awesome publishing So you can also go to everything that Darren offers and I'm just I'm gonna tell y'all

There is the library that Road to Awesome has for teachers. It's one of the best out there and it is applicable. It's gonna help you and help your students. So either contact me or if you're interested in the book in addition to my websites and contact, Road to Awesome can also hook you up. And the other thing I wanna tell people is whenever I teach a class or present, you have my email, please get back to me.

If I shared something that was helpful, let me know. If there was something that maybe you don't agree with or you think could be better, hey, I would welcome that too. I'm always trying to learn and I'm here to help. So shoot me an email and let's be in touch. I'm really curious how the concepts in the book are landing with you and your districts and maybe down the road if there's a second edition, what we need to put in that second edition to make it more effective.

Darrin Peppard (30:08.066)

Outstanding stuff right there. Thanks so much, Dr. Chris Yolkin, for joining me here on Leading Into Leadership.

Alright folks, just such an incredible conversation with Dr. Chris Yocum. Man, I'll tell you what, since episode 33 when Chris was very first on the show, he and I have really developed a really good relationship. We work together now with me doing adjunct work at Fort Hay State University and certainly Roach Awesome partnered with him on this latest project, You Don't Have to Leave to Lead.

Definitely worth checking out, There's a link down in the show notes for you to go get a copy of Chris's new book, links to get in touch with Chris, go to his website, all of that great stuff. So make sure you do that. And don't forget, go check out digicoach.com and tell them I sent you. Now it's time for a pep talk. Hey, this week's pep talk is going to be really simple. I'm going to challenge you. If you have not gone back and listened to our previous episode, episode 246, do so.

In that episode, I give you an eight step framework to get to actually dive into those difficult conversations. Every one of us, especially this time of year, we're at that point where we're not just on the threshold of, we need to have some of those crucial conversations. But so often leaders avoid them. They step away from them. They find excuses not to do them. And it's not because they don't want to do the work.

Darrin Peppard (04:26.029)

because they're human. So in this framework, I give you steps to take on those conversations, to be brave, and to face those conversations not as, you know, this is a disciplinary conversation, but rather this is an opportunity to grow, support, and help this employee to get better and to meet expectations. So very simple this week. The challenge, go listen, and then go pick out one of those crucial conversations you've been needing to have, use that framework, and then let me know, how did it go? Hey, that's what I've got for you this week, folks. Thank you so much for joining me here on the Leaning Into Leadership podcast. We're heading into Thanksgiving week, so happy Thanksgiving to each and every one of you. Have a wonderful week. Get out there. Have a road to awesome week.