Episode 260: Forward Together with George Couros - Leadership, Community, and Learning in Contentious Times

Darrin Peppard (00:01.058)

Hey everybody, welcome into the Leaning Into Leadership podcast. This is episode 260. My guest today is someone who I've known and respected for a long time. And somehow until now, we had never actually sat down for a full conversation here on the podcast. George Kuros is one of the most influential voices in education. When it comes to innovation, culture, and leadership, man.

George is the person you think of. But what I appreciate most about George is how he never positions himself as the person with all the answers. Instead, he shows up as a learner, as a reflector, someone willing to share what he's gotten right and what he's gotten wrong along the way. In today's conversation, we talk about how writing and blogging helped George to find his voice, not just share it.

We dig into what it really looks like to lead during contentious polarizing times and why trying to win arguments often pushes people further away. We're also gonna spend some time talking about George's newest book, Forward Together, Moving Schools from Conflict to Community in Contentious Times, and the mindset shifts leaders need if they truly want to bring people together and not just manage the noise.

Now this is a thoughtful, honest, and at times really fun conversation about leadership, learning, self-care, and what it takes to move communities forward when things feel kind of heavy. Now before we dig in, I would like to take a moment and thank the amazing sponsors that we have who make this work possible each and every week. Today's episode is brought to you by Ditch a Coach. If you're a school or district leader,

Trying to bring clarity and consistency to walkthroughs, feedback, and instructional coaching, Digicoach is a game changer. Digicoach helps leadership teams collect meaningful data, align feedback to what actually matters, what they really value, and turn observations into real growth conversations, not just simply compliance checklists. If you're serious about instructional leadership and building trust through coaching,

Darrin Peppard (02:25.624)

Digicoach is absolutely worth the look. Make sure when you go and check them out at digicoach.com that you tell them that I sent you, that you heard about them here on the Leaning Into Leadership podcast. Once again, that's digicoach.com. Today's episode is also brought to you by HeyTutor. And HeyTutor is a company that is doing incredible work to support students through high impact evidence-based tutoring.

in both English language arts and mathematics. Now, HeyTutor partners with school districts to provide in-person and online math and ELA tutoring aligned to standards. It's staffed by trained tutors who Digicoach recruits, hires, manages, and trains. So schools aren't left scrambling to make it all work or having more on their plate. It's real support.

during the school day or after the school day, designed to close the gaps and give students what they actually need to succeed. Make sure you check them out, heytutor.com. Use the link down below in the show notes if you would please. That lets them know that you heard about them here on the Leaning Into Leadership podcast. All right, let's get into this conversation now with my friend, George Kuros.

You are gonna love this. Make sure you grab a notepad and a pen and take a bunch of notes and I'll see you on the other side.

Darrin Peppard (00:00.927)

All right, everybody, welcome into this show. My guest on the show today, George Kuros. Super excited to have this conversation. Known George for a long time. Have yet to have him on the podcast. I cannot believe that, but excited to finally have this opportunity. George, welcome into the podcast.

George Couros (00:18.988)

Hey, I swear, did we not, did I just not see you in Orlando like a little while ago? You were at the-

Darrin Peppard (00:23.847)

It wasn't too long ago. I can't remember.

George Couros (00:25.302)

Yeah, and I just, I want to say, I just, really appreciate you because you, every time you see me, you just light me up. Like you make me feel so good about myself. And I know you do that with so many people. So I just want to, thanks for having me on and you're someone I really, you're just, you're honestly a light. So it's the best way can describe you and like on online and then, yeah. And then I see you and you're just, I remember we were in some like weird like space that

was like kind of between the outdoors I just remember you specifically see see right yeah yeah yeah see I remember this I

Darrin Peppard (00:58.479)

Yeah, Dwight Carter was with us, right? I think you were with Dwight. Yeah, that's right. Yeah, I don't remember exactly when that was, but yeah, I remember it vividly. Yeah, yeah.

George Couros (01:10.479)

It might have been like the Jossens conference. don't know if that's what I was... Yeah, we were seeing you there and yeah, you're just a light man. You just attract people to you. So I really appreciate you because I know you make people feel really elevated. So all the people that had you as their leader are pretty lucky.

Darrin Peppard (01:13.427)

There you go. Yeah, it was a Renaissance conference.

Yeah.

Darrin Peppard (01:26.571)

I really appreciate that. while we're paying compliments, I was going to open with this and I just completely forgot this was going to be my lead in. I stepped out from public education after 26 years, about four, four and a half years ago. And stepping into the leadership space, there are a handful of

There are lot of people in the leadership space, but there is a small, small number of people that, for want of a better phrase, I'll say I look up to, but it's more of a want to model yourself after, or you consider folks like yourself as a real trailblazer in the space. so.

you know the fact that you know we've had an opportunity to know each other for quite a while is is really really cool but I don't think I've ever had a chance to tell you that so you've definitely been kind of that that I heard Dave Schmiddle one time I heard Dave give a keynote and he was talking about the green dot for runners and how that's kind of this thing out in front of them that they're always always chasing and

George Couros (02:24.236)

Man, I'm.

Darrin Peppard (02:44.389)

Somebody told me once when I stepped into space, don't compare your beginning to somebody else's middle, but if you think about individuals like yourself and where you're going, it's kind of almost like, this is somebody, not only do I wanna follow you on social media, I wanna learn from you and just continue to be inspired by you. So thank you for that.

George Couros (03:06.147)

That means a lot, I'm way better at giving compliments, getting them so like, stop. But I appreciate you, man. And I think just like you, because I know you do this very well, I'm not an expert in anything. I'm just someone who likes to learn. And I think that you make your learning very visible. And I think that's what inspires people is to see the ups and downs too.

I think that's what I've always tried to do. So hopefully people can learn. I actually say this in my new book. I hope my hindsight can be someone else's foresight. Some of the mistakes I've made. yeah.

Darrin Peppard (03:41.853)

Ooh, that's good. That's really good. I love that quote. That's really strong. So let's do this. I mean, we don't need to go through the whole, you know, this is who George is, that kind of stuff. I talked a little bit about it in that cold open. I want to go back to kind of the, what for most people probably think, this is what put George on the map, the innovators mindset, your blogging.

And then of course since then you've inspired so many other people. Good mutual friend of ours. Lauren talks about it quite often about how you've been Lauren Kaufman, how you've been an inspiration to her, got her to start blogging. But let's go back to like George's origin here. Obviously I know you were an educator and then this opportunity came. So I don't know, pick up wherever you want and let's just go.

George Couros (04:21.486)

Mmm.

George Couros (04:27.81)

Yep.

George Couros (04:31.309)

Yep.

George Couros (04:36.994)

Yeah, it's interesting because I'm very proud that I've pushed a lot of people and they, you know, they'd probably say aggressively to write and to share and.

Darrin Peppard (04:45.791)

Yeah.

George Couros (04:48.855)

A lot of times I will sit with someone like Lauren and I'll listen. I'm like, this is not fair that I'm getting this, but no one else is. Like you need to, and I remember actually pushing Lauren in front of her, like she asked me to speak and she had a group of people, like she asked me to speak to her mentor group. And I'm like, you should, you blogged. She couldn't really say no because.

She brought me in, so it was kind of funny. And she's an incredible writer and incredible thinker. So I think it's, you know, I know she benefits from it, just the processing, but so many other people benefit, which is, why I try to push people to do that. But I first started really getting into writing and sharing my thoughts, not because I thought I had anything good to share at all. I actually was a principal at the time, and we were trying to figure out...

how to do digital portfolios with our students. And I didn't want it just to be, hey, we're gonna take a picture of something or make a video and just create a link. I wanted the kids to be reflective on the process.

So we were trying to teach him this stuff for about a year and it was failing. It was just not working at all. And I'm sitting here thinking, I can't really teach this to kids because I've never learned it. I don't understand it. So I'm just going to go first. So I actually tried some different spaces and I actually went through the process, learned how to create. So my blog or my website, which is, my blog.

actually started as a principal and it was the only reasoning was because I wanted to teach it to our students and to teach to my staff. And as I went through the process, I like, wow, this is really helpful. Like this is, I'm really having to think about what I talk about and I know your role in administration.

George Couros (06:41.198)

Ideas are really easy when they're in your head, but when you have to say them to people, it's a lot harder to get out. But when I was writing about them, it was giving me an understanding of different viewpoints because I had to consider them because I didn't want people pushing back in the comments, to be honest with you. I'm like, I need to think about different ideas. And then I remember one time somebody reached out to me and they said, I love your blog. Would you come speak? I'm like, what are you talking about? And I said, yeah, we'd love you to speak at our

Darrin Peppard (07:10.516)

Yeah.

George Couros (07:11.305)

I'm like, yeah, I guess I could. they said, well, what's your fee? I'm like, you're going to pay me? That's a thing? No, that's the, it was all accidental. Yeah, I had no clue. And then it just kind of morphed from there. yeah, and like, I really, I really do enjoy, I really do enjoy writing and I really, you know, I telling stories and connecting in that way, but yeah, it was never, it was never with the intention of becoming a speaker. And I think.

Darrin Peppard (07:16.287)

Right.

George Couros (07:36.975)

It was just to learn and just try to figure this out with kids. And then it just kind of snowballed into what I'm doing today, which I think is, yeah, it's like a dream job that I didn't know existed, which I think is really interesting. And I guess part of my drive is I want kids to have the opportunities that I found.

Darrin Peppard (07:49.353)

Yeah.

George Couros (08:02.766)

accidentally, but I want them to intentionally find them. And I think that to me is kind of what drives me today, because I feel really blessed, but it was accidental. And I want kids to be intentional about creating those opportunities themselves.

Darrin Peppard (08:14.079)

Yeah. Yeah. You know, actually, my blog started very much the same way. it was, you know, at first for me, and I was a high school principal at the time, I wanted to find a way to communicate what was happening in our building without it just being putting something, you know, as a Facebook post for parents. Because sometimes it was a little bit more complicated stuff.

George Couros (08:20.344)

Yes.

George Couros (08:37.614)

Mm-hmm.

George Couros (08:41.902)

Thanks.

Darrin Peppard (08:42.175)

you know, whether it was, you know, work that we were doing, you know, in the process of creating our career academies or, you know, explaining state accountability models and just some of the things that people just didn't understand. And I was sitting, ironically, we already talked about him, but I was sitting in Red Wing, Minnesota in a top floor bar in this old, old, old hotel. I can't remember the name of it.

with Dwight Carter and just asking and at the time Dwight was principal at Gehanna Lincoln High School and I just you know he was again somebody who I you know very much I'm inspired by and he said well have you tried blogging and I'm like tell me more I don't know I mean I've heard of it but I tell me more and so he kind of inspired me to get going he also at that time introduced me to Twitter and like got me connected on Twitter and and

George Couros (09:14.927)

Mmm.

George Couros (09:28.12)

Yeah.

George Couros (09:38.862)

Thank

Darrin Peppard (09:41.503)

Whew, man, back in the good old days of Twitter. That's not what it is now. But that kind of got me going a little bit too. And you said something in there that I'd love to have you maybe build on a little bit. And maybe this for anybody listening who maybe you have a blog or maybe you want to write a book or something like that, something that I've discovered.

George Couros (09:44.142)

Hahaha

Yeah.

Darrin Peppard (10:07.443)

but then also that I tell others who tell me they want to write a book or something. I think the more that you write about it, the more you speak it. As an example, you know, my book wrote to Awesome. That's the second edition, the first edition to the second edition, night and day in terms of the book, because I probably keynoted it 75 times and workshopped it and just gained so much clarity.

around what I was trying to communicate. And also, like you said, I learned so much more in between version one and version two. So I'm really muddying this question with a lot of stuff. yeah, talk a little bit about how either that blogging piece or writing a book or advice you give people when they're kind of stuck in that, do I get it all out?

George Couros (10:42.734)

Yep.

George Couros (10:51.758)

You gotcha.

George Couros (11:03.693)

Yeah, I think a lot, I'm sure I know you publish books and I think a lot of times people say I want to write a book and because they want to write a book and I'm like, that's not, that's not what you want to do because you're, just, you're just basically checking off like a list and whatever. And I'm not saying you shouldn't have aspirations like that too, but what I find works most effectively is through the writing process.

you kind of find the thing that you're interested in. So when I wrote Innovators Mindset, it wasn't because I meant to write about.

this book called The Interviewer's Mindset, I just noticed I kept coming back to the topic of innovation over and over again. And basically by the time I was ready to write, I'm like, have so much stuff that I've been really kind of diving into and kind of connecting. And you just kind of, like, it's not just about sharing your voice, it's finding your voice. I think that's where that process comes into. And the funny thing when you mentioned, you know, you started writing and part of it was to share with your staff.

and you know this as a principal, right? And you're gonna hate it that you know it, cause it's true. I would say stuff to my staff and they were like, whatever. And then I would share like someone like you, your blog every week, I'd say, hey, here are three blogs like you should read. And here's like a highlight from it. And they're like, did you see that Darren? And I'm like, yeah, I said the exact same thing, but whatever, whatever gets you going, right? Because when it's from.

Darrin Peppard (12:34.612)

Yeah.

George Couros (12:35.436)

from someone outside, then it's all of a sudden the best idea ever, even though you've been saying it over and over again. And I know that's like a frustrating thing, but I also know it's a reality. So I had no issue saying like, hey,

check out this person's post, look at what this person's doing. They're like, that's really interesting. But I was never just sharing that with my staff. I was sharing it with my staff and my community. if I shared it, and I challenge people, if I shared it in an email, half my staff wouldn't read it.

But when I share it openly and the families were reading it and then they started asking the staff, the staff's like, I better read it because I don't want to be the person who isn't reading the stuff the principal is sharing out too. So it was like an interesting process. I think that's where, and I still love doing that, building on someone's insights and conversation. just, know, like even if it's, you know, maybe it's not blocked. I...

Darrin Peppard (13:12.393)

Yeah.

George Couros (13:28.628)

I am like a diehard blogger. I will never not blog. And I wish more people would give it an opportunity. if that's not your thing, like I had a conversation with Heidi Week. She's a superintendent in Illinois. She said something to me and I posted like a 30 second video.

on it too, and with credit to her, and that's where I love about it. It's like building on the conversations that you have and digging deep. then once I actually said that about Heidi, now it's stuck in my brain, now I have it. And that will be a conversation I have. And I think that's where the writing really helped me is, and as a speaker, I will not talk about something I haven't written about, because when I've written about it, then I know it way better. And I've kind of wrestled with it a little

Darrin Peppard (13:53.619)

Yeah.

George Couros (14:14.576)

bit. If I just say it the first time, then it's a little terrifying. I think you find your voice as much as you share your voice. I think that's, and you find what you're interested in. That's probably, that's one of the reasons I was such an advocate for students doing it, because I wanted students to walk out of school having an idea of what they want to do, you know, probably like you and I, so confused about like, what am going to do when you walked out of high school? You had no clue. And it's like the way school is structured, it's like subject, subject, subject, subject. It is meant to be a little bit confusing. Whereas I

Darrin Peppard (14:18.716)

Yeah.

George Couros (14:44.496)

wanted students to kind of figure out what did they want to do and that's where that really helped me.

Darrin Peppard (14:49.587)

Yeah, absolutely. Well, and just listening to you talk about that makes me think a couple of things. Specific, not to keep going back to my blog, but one of the things through the work that I do now with so much leadership coaching and working in so many different schools, my blog almost every single week is me reflecting on something that I helped somebody through or that I learned from them. Like you said, you heard.

George Couros (15:13.528)

Right. Right.

Darrin Peppard (15:16.371)

Heidi say something, you're like, bang, let's turn this into something. I think there's a misnomer sometimes, because I'm sure you get it all the time, I get it quite a bit, people will say, ooh, I wanna do what you do. And there's a mistake, there's this misunderstanding that our job is to just know all the answers. When I look at it as our job is to ask really good questions and just get people to.

George Couros (15:29.998)

Okay.

George Couros (15:40.386)

Yes.

Darrin Peppard (15:43.977)

find their own way and occasionally give some guidance or you know, hey, know, I tried it this way and it really bombed so don't do this type of thing. Maybe just take that a little bit and then I want to make sure we get to your new book here in a minute but go ahead.

George Couros (15:52.707)

Yeah.

George Couros (15:59.873)

Yes.

George Couros (16:03.701)

Yeah, I see us in groups I work with all the time and I write about this a little bit in Forward Together. I call it the teacher paradox, right? So when you go in to work with a group of educators, they will judge you on how good you are if you give them stuff they can do the next day. And like, do you give them like strategies, practices they can do in the classroom right away? And I say, listen,

when you, that's how you're gonna judge me. And I want you to really think about this. Do you know any other group of people who wanna be told exactly what to do the next day, who also hate being told what to do other than educators, right? Like, tell me exactly what to do, but don't you dare tell me what to do, right? So, it's interesting, because when I bring that up.

And that is what I call the teacher paradox is when I bring it up, people are like, yeah, that is totally what we do. And I don't like being told what to do. So I just say like, listen, just similar to what you said, I'm just someone sharing some ideas with you. Ultimately, you have to figure out the solutions because I don't know your community. I do not know your context. And you are the experts in front of me. I'm just someone sharing ideas. And the expert is actually sitting beside you as well. And so we need to lean on each

other for this. So hopefully some ideas will help you know through that process. But I can't give you the solutions because I don't know your community. I don't know that. And that to me is like a something that is really prevalent and forward together. But that's my whole thinking of innovators mindset. It's not me giving you the answers. It's you figure out your own pathway forward. And that's something I want to instill as much as the adults as I do the kids right that they see themselves as the answer.

Darrin Peppard (17:44.199)

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. So you mentioned Forward Together. So let's talk about that a little bit. I mean, you and I had a really good conversation before we hit the record button. So title of the book, Forward Together, Moving Schools from Conflict to Community in Contentious Times. Love all the alliteration in there, by the way. So what we were talking about before we jumped in and hit the record button,

George Couros (17:55.597)

Yeah.

George Couros (18:04.811)

Yeah, a lot.

Darrin Peppard (18:13.823)

was just kind of what led you to the book. I wanna go a little bit different direction with that. And you said something a minute ago about how you write to find your voice. talk a little bit about this. mean, you told me you wrote this book in about two weeks, based on something you were inspired by and that kind of thing. finding your voice in this book, let's talk a little bit about that.

George Couros (18:23.5)

Yeah.

George Couros (18:29.767)

Yeah, I did.

George Couros (18:40.109)

Well, you know, and when I say that too, and I'm sure you're the same way, I did write it in two weeks. Like the whole, like from idea, the idea did not exist in my mind on a day in July and two weeks later the book was done. And it was really an incredible process.

And part of it is because there is a lot of stories, things that I've been building upon. like that kind of notion of finding your voice is, kind of in there is that, you know, I knew like that was already in me somewhere. I just didn't know it until I'm like, Hey, I think I actually, I think I have a good idea for a book.

And so through that process, but the other element of it too, and this is just me, when I'm in the midst of writing a book, I cannot function.

other than writing that book. Like everything, I'm dreaming about it. It's just, it's nonstop for me and it's just kind of partly how my brain is wired. And it is kind of, it feels a little painful and I'm like, I cannot do this for six months. I cannot live this way. Cause I, you know, I will not be okay after. So I'm just like, I gotta go, gotta go. So I just kind of set out to do a chapter a day and you know, kind of, know, if I can kind of like touch on what I'll be

be doing the next day through that process. a lot of it, there's some stories I share in my blog that are now repurposed for the book that really make sense to the topic. that's the benefit of writing all the time is that sometimes you already have some of the stories ready to go and you didn't even know what they were for.

Darrin Peppard (20:22.813)

Yeah, yeah, no, that's, that's, that's really good. I'm sitting here kind of reflecting on my own writing process, listening to you. And, you know, when I wrote the first edition of Road Awesome, it was the pandemic. So I had some interrupt uninterrupted time for sure. When I did the second edition, that was a little bit different, you know, plus, you know, then I was full time doing this. So I think I cranked that thing out in probably about two, two and a half weeks. But my,

George Couros (20:34.379)

Yeah.

Yeah.

George Couros (20:47.778)

Yeah.

Darrin Peppard (20:51.857)

most recent book, the one I did with Katie Kinder, Culture First Classrooms, Katie and I both just had this incredibly busy schedule with both of us. Like, I'd have a week I was available, but she wasn't, and vice versa. I'm sure you've done this. When you write a book with someone, that like grinds the gears to a halt at times. that was really, really tough to do because I'm like you, once...

George Couros (20:55.435)

Yeah.

George Couros (21:08.012)

Yeah.

Darrin Peppard (21:16.795)

Once I have that, like, okay, I'm ready to go. I've got one I'm working on right now on leadership teams that's there, but not yet ready to go to the keyboard. But I know once I go, it's just gonna be, I'll go hard for three or four weeks on it and just get it done. But, but, go ahead.

George Couros (21:30.146)

Yeah.

George Couros (21:34.094)

Yeah, I did innovate. I did innovate said the box with Katie Novak and one of the things she is a prolific writer and I do not basically six o'clock. I am done. I can't do anything. I am like a zombie and watching TV and whatever. So I like to write earlier in the day and she writes at night. And so the way we set it up is I would write in the morning, she would read what I wrote and then she'd finish it at night. And we just kind of did that back and forth. So that only took us a few weeks as well. And we

Darrin Peppard (21:37.737)

That's right, yeah.

George Couros (22:04.077)

both kind of just are, we just want to write, write, get it going. And through that process, I wanted to mention because I've written with Alison Apsi, who's incredible and others as well. Though, one of my favorite mean comments that I've ever got, it is kind of like funny, but it was mean. It that there was a review on Innovate to the Box and said, more Katie less George. I was like, okay, whatever.

That was kind of funny. That's the reason, that's the reason I brought it up. I'm like, I get it, whatever. I want more Katie too. So, so sometimes not actually someone had me speak and they were choosing between me and Katie. I'm like, I guess more George's Katie this time. And she would kind of laugh about it too. So she's like my little sister. I love her. Yeah. But it was kind of like, it kind of hurts, but is also funny.

Darrin Peppard (22:37.947)

Yeah. Yeah, that's funny.

Darrin Peppard (22:51.389)

Yeah. Yeah. That's fantastic. Yeah.

Right, yeah. Well, you were saying it before, before we hit record that sometimes it's the best thing to do is just kind of poke a little fun at yourself. And that's what you do in this new book. So I guess what that does is that allows people to maybe let their guard down a little bit. And I know here in Forward Together, one of the things that you've done is you share some of those stories that are like, yeah, that didn't

George Couros (23:09.409)

Yeah.

Darrin Peppard (23:25.503)

or here's how I did that, and yeah, maybe no, but it allows others to see themselves in you. So let's talk about that book now, talk about kind of the idea, the concept of where you were going with this. mean, obviously, leading in contentious times, that's something everybody needs help with right now. So let's talk a little bit about that.

George Couros (23:36.653)

Yes.

George Couros (23:52.982)

Yeah, so it's funny because I was like, actually, and I talk about this a little bit in the book, the initial title in my head was like divided, know, like kind of play on words.

Darrin Peppard (24:04.221)

sure.

George Couros (24:05.741)

And I really, like I was like, okay, like I know this is not gonna be the title because I really hate speaking in negatives. Like here's like this horrible thing. And as much, I know this sounds horrible, but I have worked with parent groups and I'm like, hey, here's all the way to empower kids to use technology meaningful ways. And like three parents show up and it's, or you can have the session like, hey, your kids are gonna be abducted online and it's wrecking them, packed house, right?

we know that fear sells and I'm just not interested in that. So I was like, I want something a little bit, like a little bit different title. So I actually worked on the idea of Forward Together, something aspirational. And then the subtitle moving schools from conflict to community contentious times, I thought just really kind of summarize what this book is about. And the reason I tell you about the title is because I'm like, I said this here, I'm like super excited about this book. I think it can really make a positive impact.

Darrin Peppard (25:04.351)

Mm-hmm.

George Couros (25:05.504)

to people that wanna bring communities together. And I will tell people the title and they're like, huh, that's really interesting. And I say, yeah, and I open it. And I actually remember when I was a principal, I just finished my principalship and I was in central office and I went to a conference and there was someone who basically said, you shouldn't be using tech with students. It's terrible, don't do it. And I'm thinking, I just spent like my last several years.

really changing my school community and now you're saying I was an idiot for doing this. So I actually, you know, what did I do? I pulled out my blog at the time and I'm sitting in a session. I start blogging about how this person is so off and they're terrible in their thinking and basically their line of thinking is gonna be irrelevant. And so I'm telling the story to people I'm like, you know, mentioning the book first time and they're like, I don't think that's a good idea. Like how you're, this is probably like.

Darrin Peppard (26:01.599)

you

George Couros (26:03.437)

This is probably the opposite of what you're trying to achieve. And so there, it's kind of funny because I see the reaction to me telling this story. And then I say, and then I asked the question, did that get the people that I was trying to reach? Like I actually, everyone who agreed with me, just agree with me and everyone who disagreed with me, I pushed them away further. And, and basically,

Darrin Peppard (26:06.047)

Yeah.

George Couros (26:26.922)

how often do we do that? How do we get those people that we're trying to reach? So then you can see like, okay, I get it now. But it was really kind of starting like, here are some of the things I've done that really hurt the process of what I was trying to achieve and what I was trying to do. And now this has actually changed things for me. My viewpoint is significant. there's some like, here's some of my...

I don't wanna say like it's autobiographical, but it's a lot of my journey of screwing up and a lot of schools doing the right thing. And you can see like I start figuring stuff out as I go and obviously, but that is like, I feel it's really important that especially in contentious times, pointing yourself first, which is literally the first principle.

Don't judge others when you've done the same thing. And then think about that. And when you share those stories and what you did to get out of it, that actually might kind of get people like, have I done that before? Like, have I actually pushed the people I'm trying to reach? And that's the intent of the book. so, as much as it is a very, for lack of better word, a contentious topic.

The number one feedback is that the book is hilarious and there's a lot of funny moments in there, which I'm trying to like, hey, let's lighten up about this stuff, but I'm still gonna provide you some solutions, some ways. And I don't wanna say solutions as much as ideas that, because I'm all about the same thing that I said earlier. And I say this like, I don't know what's going on in your community. So you gotta figure this out, but hopefully through some of the conversations that you have, maybe this book will inspire, that's when you start figuring out some of the pathway that you move forward.

Darrin Peppard (28:08.285)

Yeah, absolutely. Well, and think that's an important piece too. We were talking about this before we hit record as well, just it's hard to be that expert in your own space, You were talking about heading back to your province in Canada. I talked about speaking in my home state in Wyoming a few months ago. And when I listen to you talk, it makes me kind of think about

George Couros (28:22.987)

Good.

George Couros (28:27.724)

Yeah.

Darrin Peppard (28:38.159)

As individuals, we won't necessarily look at ourselves as what's in the way or what's the blockade or what's, you know, maybe I am the fly in the ointment, but when I hear that about someone else, when I hear someone else tell a story about, I might see myself in them and say, wait a minute, am I doing that?

George Couros (29:02.762)

I don't

Darrin Peppard (29:04.639)

Am I doing that? I the problem? And maybe, just maybe, I might show up and ask some people I trust, do you see this in me? I mean, am I the one who's kind of pushing away? And so when I hear that, I think that's one of the pieces that I haven't had a chance yet. I am stoked to read this book. It is on its way. As we're recording this, of course, we've just had this wicked, wicked blast of Arctic weather come through. And so...

George Couros (29:14.112)

Yes.

George Couros (29:24.364)

Thanks.

George Couros (29:32.064)

Yeah.

Darrin Peppard (29:33.533)

I'm sure my package is sitting somewhere in Commerce City, Colorado or something, but the place where packages go to die is what we refer to that as. But I can't wait to dive into this book and learn a little bit more. me something that, in addition to what you've already talked about, but like when we write a book, I'm certain you're this way too, but I want to make sure that...

George Couros (29:34.988)

Hahaha!

George Couros (29:46.006)

Yeah.

Darrin Peppard (29:59.683)

I cause some kind of change that I make people think that I'm not necessarily providing a solution but providing like a spark to make them say, okay, what's something that with this book, you're really hopeful, you would love to at some point, instead of the more Katie less George that you hear something like, this book made me do this. Like, what would that be?

George Couros (30:25.217)

Yeah, so it's funny that you bring this up because I actually talk about a lot of the professional learning experiences that we should have. And I actually show what's called, I can't remember where I referenced it, but it was like a story arc. There should be like emotional connection, right? And you kind of talked about this just now and there should be ups and downs. And...

The one thing, I've mentioned this on other podcasts too, but it is like, I actually had to reread the book as we're doing the final edits. And I said, you you do want this emotional arc in your professional learning. that shows that you're alive. Because do you know when else there's a flat line in your life is when you're dead. I was like, what's the point of I wrote that? But it is true. But I talk about this notion that,

there should be a combination of when you're reading this book and when you're doing professional learning of what I say called the warm bath and cold shower, is that you should feel appreciated and warm and that nice feeling, but that cold shower should shock you a little bit and should challenge you. And so there is like some of those stories where you see that the great school is doing stuff. There is a chapter and I split it up into the book into two parts. One is the principles where it's like,

Here are like the really foundational things that you need to like really hold on to and will help you through, you know, bringing people together.

they don't always work because humans are a variable. you know, so nothing ever has worked exactly the way we want it to and acknowledging that. So here are some perspectives that when things go wrong, you still hold on to your principles because principles matter most when they're hardest to maintain. And in the perspectives, one of the chapters, it is just the title is titled, Somebody Hates You, which is right. And people like, like, as people say, like, what is this?

Darrin Peppard (32:16.574)

Yeah.

George Couros (32:20.499)

And it's just like, you listen to it, I'm sure you're an amazing administrator, somebody hated you, right? Right. so the thing is that you, I think people kind of like appreciate being truthful about that. And I talk about like someone who was basically swearing at me who hated me and was like telling us and kind of go through that process. And there's, there's reasons why people can hate you. They think you're horrible at your job.

Darrin Peppard (32:25.658)

guaranteed, yeah, yeah. I got a list.

George Couros (32:50.558)

or they think you're really good at your job and they're uncomfortable with that too, right? There is a spectrum of everything in between and it is...

are we spending all of our time trying to get that person who will always hate you to like you, knowing it will never work when you have a bunch of people who want to get better and you take care of them. And do know what they often do? They take care of the person that hates you. they might actually, that person might never like you, but they might want to move forward because of all the other people that feel empowered. But a lot of times what we do, 80 % of our time, 20 % of our people. And one of my arguments is like, you should spend 80 %

of your time on 80 % of your people. That is where you need to focus your energy because somebody's going to hate you. And is that what we try to chase? Is that person that will never like you? And so there's some of that cold char and you want that. That one is really, is really connected with people because, I even say like it's a chapter title and I even say, how's that for chapter title? Like acknowledging it right away. This is people really that yeah, not that one's connected with people quite a bit.

Darrin Peppard (33:32.669)

Yeah.

Darrin Peppard (33:54.451)

Yeah.

Darrin Peppard (33:58.564)

That's really cool, I love that. And yeah, no truer words have ever been spoken than that right there.

George Couros (34:02.156)

Right. And I actually, I'm like, there is nothing more true in the book than what I just said. Somebody hates you.

Darrin Peppard (34:08.99)

Yeah, yeah, you're taking me to my five, as I referred to them. I had five staff members that it didn't matter. I could have given them each a million dollars and they would have complained that they had to pay taxes on it. So, you know, something like that, right? But no, that's wonderful. I love that. Folks, we're gonna put a link down in the show notes so you can go check out the book 100%, make sure you go and get a copy of the book. George, our time has just.

George Couros (34:16.78)

You're right.

George Couros (34:22.026)

Good. Exactly.

Darrin Peppard (34:35.864)

Absolutely flown by. I'm loving this conversation. I'd love to just keep going. we're at that point in the show. I'm gonna ask you the same question I ask everybody. This is the Leaning Into Leadership podcast. So how are you leaning into leadership right now?

George Couros (34:48.748)

I saw that question when you sent me some of the notes prior and I think for me, and I know you've probably seen this, over the last several years, I've really dedicated myself to taking better care of my own health.

And that is something, you know, during COVID, I don't know how familiar with this, I lost like 120 pounds. And part of it was, well, actually a huge part of it that people don't want to, because I hate that it's true. I really got my, my eating in check because you know, especially traveling, it's very hard to, know, have routine is very helpful for me for eating, but I've always exercised. But I, I found that has

helped me really mentally in so many ways and really emotionally. And I think a lot of people, especially in leadership in school administration, they give everything to everyone else and then they have nothing left because they have taken such poor care of themselves. And that is one of the ways you make sure you take care of yourself because you need to take care of others and you can't do that unless...

you're okay. So I think that's really, you know, helped me quite a bit over the past several years. And, you know, I feel different and I feel, I feel like I'm, I feel a lot, a lot of stuff I thought I'm like, I'm getting old. I'm like, no, that wasn't getting old. That was not, it was not healthy. So, so it has made a difference. So I know that a lot of people think it is a selfish thing that I said, I think it's honestly, I think it's a selfish thing. And especially with little kids, my little kids watch my habits. So they, they,

Darrin Peppard (36:19.603)

Yeah.

George Couros (36:34.19)

they see me running and they run alongside me and that's something that really, really matters to me and I think how we model that matters.

Darrin Peppard (36:44.734)

I'm really glad you went there because one of the things I was feeling regretful of was as I'm watching our clock, that was something I wanted to ask you about, was this transformation, this fitness journey. so I'm really glad, one, that you went there and two, that I didn't ask about it because then I would have stolen your answer to the big closing question here.

George Couros (36:56.266)

Yeah.

Darrin Peppard (37:11.094)

man, this has been so much fun. I'm so glad we had a chance to sit down and have a conversation. I'll be in Orlando again here fairly soon. Maybe I'll shoot you a text and see if you're around. It'd be great to see you. Yeah, so.

George Couros (37:13.996)

Thanks, man.

George Couros (37:18.294)

Yeah. Hold on, I'll show you around. Listen, anytime anyone comes to Orlando, they have no time for me or my family. They are the most booked people I've ever met in my life, right? Usually people come to Disney and they have every second plan for Disney and rehearsal and we get the leftovers. So I'll take any time.

Darrin Peppard (37:29.469)

Yeah.

Yeah, for sure.

Yeah.

There you go, absolutely. Yeah, well, I'll see if I can not put you in the leftover bin. We'll see how that goes. So man, this was wonderful, George. Thanks so much for joining me here on Leading Into Leadership.

George Couros (37:48.577)

Thanks for all you do, man. Appreciate you.

All right, folks, just a fantastic conversation with George. So grateful I finally got the chance to sit down with him and record an episode here on the podcast. He's somebody I've met in person a few different times, I've heard him speak.

We definitely go back, but really a wonderful opportunity to talk with him here on the podcast. I hope you enjoyed that conversation as much as I did. And now it's time for a pep talk. Today on the pep talk, I wanna talk about the patchwork quilt that sometimes we create when we are fixing issues with our systems. Now this actually goes back to a podcast I listened to not too long ago.

Darrin Peppard (04:41.077)

I've been doing some market research and trying to learn in spaces outside of education. As most of you know, my work has moved outside of just the education space. And so I'm trying to learn as much about other industries as possible. Recently, listening to a healthcare podcast, I heard them talk about an individual talk specifically about what he referred to as a clujocracy. In other words, a

patchwork quilt of repairing various systems. In this particular case, he was speaking specifically about the healthcare insurance industry here in the United States and how different actions taken by different administrations, different groups in Congress have fixed certain issues, but ultimately as a result have created this patchwork quilt.

that is rather a system not working. I was in a school earlier this week and we were talking about some things specific to a portion of the work being done in this school. And it made me think back to that particular podcast and it made me wonder, are we creating a Cluj ourself, our own Clujocracy, where we, by fixing individual things within our systems,

ultimately are not helping but actually damaging our systems. I don't know that I have the answer. I actually wrote a blog this week. I'll put a link in the show notes for you to check out. And it's not one of those blogs where I feel like I had the answers. I more wrote this particular blog because I'm curious. I reflected on my own career. I reflected on times as a leader when certainly it made sense to do this.

to repair something not working well in our system or to serve a group better in our system. But I wonder, did that ultimately strengthen or did it weaken our system? So my challenge for you this week with the pep talk is to just simply think about that. To simply take a step back, get up on the balcony as I love to tell you to do, but this time think about individual systems

Darrin Peppard (07:08.435)

actions you've taken with those systems and did that strengthen your overall system or might it have actually caused more confusion or damaged the system? Hey, that's what I've got for you this week, folks. Thanks so much for listening to the Leaning Into Leadership podcast. Again, make sure you go and check out our sponsors, check out HeyTutor, check out Digicoach. Links are in the show notes for you. Please, please.

Go check out the amazing work both of those companies are doing. And while you're on the computer, make sure you have rated and given a review to the Leaning Into Leadership podcast. Folks, those are the things that help drive this show through that magical system that will land in front of other people. And while we're at it, maybe you listen to the episode and you think, you know, I know somebody who should listen to this. Please share it with them.

love to see us continue to grow, continue to see more and more people having an opportunity to lean into leadership. Get out there and have a Roe Dawson.