Episode 129: When Inclusion Stops Working — A Conversation with Dr. Douglas Fuchs
🎙️ Schurtz & Ties
Dr. Douglas Fuchs on Inclusion, IDEA, and the Limits of the General Classroom
In this episode of Schurtz & Ties, Kasey Schurtz sits down with Dr. Douglas Fuchs, one of the most influential scholars in special education, to explore one of the most pressing and emotionally charged questions in schools today:
When is inclusion truly least restrictive—and when does it stop being instructionally responsible?
Drawing on decades of research, classroom experience, and policy work, Dr. Fuchs helps unpack how good intentions around inclusion can drift into oversimplification, and why the IDEA framework was never designed to mean “general education at all costs.”
This is a conversation about instructional limits, professional honesty, and what students with disabilities actually need to learn—not just belong.
Inclusion as a moral imperative vs. an instructional decision
Why Least Restrictive Environment (LRE) is often misunderstood
The difference between abolitionist and conservationist views of special education
What IDEA actually says about placement and accommodation
Why co-teaching often fails students with serious learning difficulties
The limits of general education classrooms—even with strong teachers
RTI / MTSS as an attempt to rethink general education structure
What intensive, individualized instruction really requires
Why expertise—not titles—matters most in special education
The difference between enabling a disability and building independence
What schools feel like when they get this right
Much of the episode centers on the reality that learning problems are instructional problems, and that students with significant needs require teachers who can adapt instruction through data, not just provide accommodations .
Dr. Douglas Fuchs is a Professor Emeritus of Special Education at Vanderbilt University’s Peabody College, where he has spent decades shaping the national conversation around learning disabilities, inclusion, and instructional design.
His work has been foundational in areas including:
Learning Disabilities research
Data-Based Individualization (DBI)
Instructional decision-making
RTI / MTSS frameworks
Special education policy interpretation
Dr. Fuchs is known for bridging research, classroom reality, and federal law, often challenging schools to confront uncomfortable truths about capacity, expertise, and limits.
Vanderbilt Peabody Faculty Bio
https://peabody.vanderbilt.edu/bio/douglas-fuchs/Vanderbilt IRIS Center (Instructional Research & Practice)
https://iris.peabody.vanderbilt.edu/Research on Data-Based Individualization (DBI)
https://intensiveintervention.org/Publications and Research Profile
https://scholar.google.com/scholar?q=Douglas+Fuchs+special+education
This episode is not about being “for” or “against” inclusion.
It’s about being honest.
Honest about what classrooms can sustain.
Honest about what students need to learn.
Honest about the difference between placement and instruction.
As Dr. Fuchs reminds us, belonging without learning is not equity, and inclusion that ignores instructional reality ultimately fails the very students it aims to protect.
🎙️ Schurtz & Ties
Thoughtful conversations at the intersection of teaching, learning, and leadership.
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