Family, Heroes, and Lessons Learned From Winning Olympic Gold with Liz, Nancy, and Gwen Jorgensen

What's going on everybody? I hope this finds you striving and thriving and doing absolutely amazing. My name is Brian Moran. I'm a second grade teacher and hosted the teaching champions podcast. And today's episode is a conversation with a pretty special family. With the holiday season quickly approaching. This conversation embodies what the holidays should be about family, and today I'm joined by Liz, Nancy and Gwen Jorgensen. Now Gwen Jorgensen, she's the 2016 gold medalist in the triathlon. And her journey to Olympic gold is truly inspirational. And with her family, we discuss some of the biggest lessons that helped her persevere and become someone who is often referred to as the goat of Olympic triathlon. And goat means the greatest of all time. Now, there are so many lessons and takeaways that transcend their arena that Glen competes in. And they can be used in everyday life, and they should be instilled in our young people that we serve. And in this episode, listen, as the ladies discuss, surrounding yourself with the right people, having process goals over outcome goals, the power of helping others see gifts in themselves that they don't see yet, and so much more. I hope you enjoy this conversation as much as I did. I am super excited for this episode. Today. I have three extremely special guests, and very accomplished each and every single one of them. And I'm gonna allow them to share a little bit about who they are in just a second, but I want to welcome Elizabeth Jorgenson, Nancy and Gwen to the teaching champions podcast. Welcome, ladies. Thank you for having us. Thank you. I'm so excited for this one because this is a special one because Gwen is an Olympic gold medalist. Nancy is an extremely accomplished teacher in her own right. She's retired now playing the role of grandma, which is awesome. And Elizabeth right now, she is an amazing educator that has multiple books published and it's just doing some fantastic things in their classroom. But um, if you ladies won't mind just sharing a little bit more about yourself. Sure, yeah. I'm Elizabeth, and I've been an English teacher for 18 years. But my favorite role is probably Gwen's biggest fan. Like you mentioned, she is an accomplished athlete, and I love cheering her on following her liking everything she posts on social media, and just being the loudest cheerleader in the crowd. And I'm Nancy Jorgensen. And I'm the mother to Elizabeth and Gwen. And for many years, I was a high school choir director. And so I did concerts and music theater, and I saw up to 400 kids every day. So I, I learned a lot, a lot of different personalities and how those personalities work with each other. And as you said, now I'm retired and I spend a lot of time writing, Elizabeth, my writing partner, we edit back and forth to each other and collaborate on projects. And when I'm not doing that, I'm visiting Gwen and her children, my grandchildren. And I'm Gwen, and I'm 2016 Rio Olympic champion, and I'm a mom too. I have my four week old with me right now. So if you hear some crying, that's gonna be him. And I may have to step out but um, and then I also have a five year old so yeah, I live in Boulder, Colorado, and train here right now. Just focusing on being a mom. No, that's fantastic. And first off, thank you for your time, but Congratulations on the birth of your beautiful boy right there. Thank you. Yes, yes, it's much bigger accomplishment than the the gold medal. So yes, thank you. Nothing better. I can see it in your eyes. As you look look down at him right now. So that's pretty special. Now, I think this is going to be a really special episode because we're gonna dive into a lot about Glen, her past two Olympic gold medal because it's pretty special. But one thing that I'm really passionate about is that mental toughness piece. And I think all of our students, like if we can get our students mentally tough, because life isn't easy, it's hard. And all of our students, we wish that it could be really easy for him. But there's going to be hurdles and struggles and things that they have to do along the way, that they need to be mentally tough. And I think there's a lot of lessons to be learned. And so this is gonna be a great episode. And I just want to talk about um, Elizabeth real quick, you and your mom wrote this book about Gwen. Why? Well, you know, I, it was really because Gwen wanted it. Gwen is so passionate about giving back to the next generation inspiring kids to set goals to follow their dreams, to dream big. And so she she knows that Mom and I are writers. And so, you know, she brought this up and mom and I said, Sure, I think we could do this. And so we began, you know, we look for comps, we looked for books to compare what we wanted to write to, and we couldn't find it a nonfiction middle grade or young adults, biography about a female athlete, man, they are hard to come by. And so, you know, we thought that it was a really important story to tell to highlight a female hero. And then, you know, we just we started writing and mom, you really came up with the inspiration for the way that the book is laid out. Kind of like Elizabeth was saying, we looked at these books, couldn't find one exactly like what we wanted to write. But I did find a book, it happened to be about Amelia Earhart, that had two timelines. One was kind of, you know, the the first day when she embarked on this famous flight, and then flashbacks to what got her there. And I just thought that that structure would fit one story perfectly. And so we have one timeline that starts seven days before the real race. And there's kind of that tension that we keep coming back to, you know, six days before the big race, four days before the big race. And then in between, we go back and correlate some stories, you know, with what's happening in Rio and how Gwen's childhood and high school and college years got her to that point. Yes. And having read the book myself, I love how you flashback and flash forward. And like you said, there's not a lot of literature out there about females and females that are heroes that can be inspiration. And, you know, teaching second grade, sometimes we get a lot of books, and football players, a lot of basketball players and everything, but you don't get those female athletes or about a sport like triathlon, you know, like you're, you're naming these big sports. And there's so many other sports too, that kids can learn about and they can connect with and they can be inspired by. I love that you said that. Because if you stop and you think about it, so I was a basketball guy growing up, but a basketball team is pretty small. If you talk about our track and field team, or a cross country team, there's a lot of athletes right there. And that longevity, both you ladies are runners, I know Elizabeth that you enjoy running to that's a lifelong sport that you can do after high school or after college athletics. So there's still a community there, you know, even though it's an individual sport, and I think one could probably speak to this too, that you know, she was competing as an individual, but there are so many people that works with her that helped her. The same with running, right, I have running groups, I have a coach, I have, you know, all of these people that that still can help you along the way in your journey. And I think that ends up being one of the themes of the book is you know, Gwen really emphasizes creating friendships with her competitors, and not doing it alone, finding a good team, finding a good coach and a good nutritionist and good colleagues that you can train with. And so kind of all of that, that you're talking about. We try to bring that out in the book. No, I absolutely think you're doing it and what's really interesting to me, so first off, for people who don't know what a triathlon is, we probably should let the listeners know what is the triathlon? Take it away. Yeah. And that's something that you know, in the book, they had to lay out, you know, what a triathlon is, and the, you know, it's a swim, a bike and a run. So you start with a swim and the triathlon I do, it's an Olympic distance, which is a 1500 meter, which is about a mile swim, a 40k bike and then a 10k run. And so you go from swim to bike to run, and that's a triathlon. Plus, there's the transitions in between which are also timed. So not only do you practice those three disciplines Did you have to practice transitioning from one to the other? And doing? Absolutely. And I'll just say like I've done two triathlon sprints, but I'm not sure if they're officially sprints, they were small, I don't know the actual distance, but that it sounds easy to go from like, the swim to the bike to the, to the run. But it's difficult. It's not in like the body transitioning from out of the water to functioning to the bike, and then your leg muscles going from the bike to running. That's difficult. Yeah, and horizontal, the vertical. Yeah, there's so many different elements. And, you know, like Elizabeth said earlier, it's a, it's a fringe sport, for sure. And so another great thing about this book is just introducing the sport to young adults. And you know, it's something that can be a lifelong sport, you swimming and biking, it's very, it's not as hard on your body as running. And so it's something that you can do your entire life. And we did want to do that exactly, as you said, but we didn't want to bog the book down with a lot of details about triathlon. And so we that was part of the structural decision that we made to pull out some of that technical information and put it in a sidebar, so that somebody who wants to learn about all those details of triathlon can, but somebody who just kind of wants to read the story can save those technical information boxes for later or skim them or, or maybe skip them. Yes. And, you know, it was really well written for, for that age group to, like, it's not going to be difficult for for a middle school to high school girl to pick it up and understand it, and what I loved in your book, because I guess, you know, I'm sitting here, and if I didn't read the book, I think, well, Glen 2016, gold medalist from day one, just the cream of the crop athletically. Like you go, I you know, win state championships, you're gonna go if you're winning, you know, if you're winning the gold medal, you win state championships, you go to the NCAA, you dominate that, and then you go on to the world level, but it's amazing when to read like Gwen's journey and what I thought you ladies did a phenomenal job, including that in there to show young ladies or even young men, like what's possible, if you put in the work, if you Yeah, it's a lot about perseverance, and sticking with it and finding something you love and finding the right group of people to help support you. And that's, you know, something in sports, you know, I think it's important to realize that you have all these people that can help you and that have, for me, personally, I needed people believing in me to be able to do it. But yeah, it wasn't an instant, instant success. And especially as a younger athlete, I was frustrated all the time, I wanted to be doing better. I saw my teammates going to NCAA, and I wasn't and it was, it was hard. But you know, I stuck with it and learned a lot of lessons that then taught me how to be a champion in triathlon. Absolutely. And that's what I want to jump into here. Real quick, with you, ladies and Nancy and Elizabeth feel free to jump in with Guan is like when we are looking for our students. How can we make them mentally strong? How can we make them resilient? What do you think some of the biggest lessons that we could pass down from your journey to our students? You know, I guess I think the first thing has to be that whoever is trying to achieve something, they have to be in love with it. That has to be a passion. And I think parents and teachers have to give kids permission to find what they really love to do. And then I think the opposite on the other side of that is to be the adult and provide some balance. Because I think when could have without without a little bit of direction, she might have taken swimming, and wanted to do nothing else, which I'm not sure would have been the recipe for success. And so that's definitely what I wanted to do. Yes, she even with you forcing some balance by you know, you hadn't played the violin, there was all these other things I I was encouraged to do. I still think I was unbalanced in a way when I was younger. Right? And so I just think that that whoever's working on whatever they have to really be in love with it themselves. Sort of like if I had tried to make a concert violinist out of Gwen, which and she was very good at violin just as good at violent as she wasn't swimming. It never would have happened because she was she did not enjoy it. Her personality. It directed her to really do it well and she was just as disciplined and she was very accomplished. She didn't love it. And so because she loves swimming, she just wanted to do it and be there every day. And she was motivated by her own passion. That's what I think the key to it was. Yeah, I bet a lot of Yeah, go ahead. Well, I was gonna say, Elizabeth, you kind of written a whole book on process versus outcome. And I think you do this really well, in your classroom of teaching this to your students. Yeah, it's consistency over intensity for me, like we come in every day, and we're gonna write and some days that what we write is gonna be great, we're gonna be so proud of it, and we can't wait to share it. And other days are going to come in, and it's going to be like sticky and terrible. And we're going to be embarrassed by it. And, you know, that's okay. It's just this consistency of, do you want to get better at running, run, if you want to get better at math, do more problems, if you want to be a better writer, write every day. And if you do it every day, you learn something along the way, oh, that that worked, I'm gonna do more of that. Or oh, that that was not good for me and my process, I need to try something else. And then you seek out feedback, much like you did Glenn, with the daily performance environment, you surround yourself with people who can help you who can encourage you who you can give you different strategies to try. And then along the way, you set these little micro goals, right, I'm going to write 1000 words, this week, or this month, or whatever it is, right? And then things that you can control, I can control writing 1000 words in a week, and focusing on the process and not necessarily the outcome. Yes, I absolutely love that. And I was actually having a conversation with my principal today about feedback, because we were talking about like, so professional athletes, whether it's someone like one, someone like LeBron James, they're the top of their field. They're getting feedback all the time. But sometimes I think like it is teachers and stuff, it can be hard, like getting that feedback. How do you see like I'm in at the high school level? And both you ladies have been there? Do you see the kids accepting feedback very well? Or is it? How do you foster that, where they accept it, and they want it, it's building a culture, right? And you want to make the classroom a safe space where they understand that the feedback, I'm working with you, I'm trying to help you, I never tie my feedback to a grade. And so I think that that helps because I'm not saying you know, minus five for this colon that's used incorrectly. No, it's not that it's like, okay, this call is not correct. But let's try maybe an M dash instead. Or let's, you know, like, let's play with it and trying to make the feedback, safe and neutral, so that they can accept it. And then you know, I've also every criticism, I give a kid on a piece, I try to balance it with three compliments, and showing the kid what they're doing well, I think, is often better feedback for them than the criticism once they know what they do well, and they're like, I'm really good at anaphora. And then all of a sudden, now they're using it here, and they're using it there. And they're using it there. And it's like, just giving them the power and the control and also the language to say I'm good at. And then to develop that more. You did a lot with feedback, though, in the classroom to mom, right, I was going to say, in my choir classroom, the goal was always to be so that the students could evaluate themselves. And you know, there are there are some places where the director sets themselves up as the choir God who knows all of the answers and has all of the feedback. And my goal was always to get my kids to be able to evaluate themselves and each other. And so we would have small group performances, maybe, you know, nine kids would be working on an ensemble, and then the rest of the class would be in charge of feedback. And kind of like Elizabeth said, I would coach them you have to say something complimentary first. And then you can offer perhaps some suggestion that would improve the performance. And I think it got them they became sensitive to what it was like to give that feedback and how the the person on the receiving end was going to accept it. But it also really developed their own language skills so that they were able to analyze what they were hearing and put it into words and then hopefully go back and maybe make a recording of themselves analyze themselves be able to be self sufficient and and of course still seek out feedback from other people. But to be the to be their own critic, too. And then like you're saying when they noticed it in someone else. Oh, that person was acting and that was engaging. I enjoyed how expressive their face was. Then they're more likely to to say okay, when I get up there, I better act. I better be expressive. I better be animated. Exactly. Yeah, I absolutely love that ladies. It's because that's a reflection piece, being able to look at what others are doing well, like you said, and bring it back to ourselves, being able to process because the older we get, sometimes we don't get that feedback as much. So we have to give ourselves feedback. And I really love how you talked about, you know, what are some positives? Let's get them focusing on what are my strengths, because we can build off of our strengths. Human nature, we're always prone to focus on that negative, but if we can get our kids our students hardwired to really see in their positives as well, that's gonna help them out a ton as to Well, I think that's your MO, Brian, right. Like, you are like the king of positivity on Twitter. If they had a crown, I would want to give it to you. Well, I appreciate that. Yes. Awesome. So what are some others I'm loving where this is going? What are some other takeaways that you guys have taken from Glenn's journey that you really bring into the classroom? I think Gwen referred to it before just about failure as part of the process. And you know, when my kids were preparing for a solar wind ensemble or some other competition along the way, they wouldn't always get a number one marking, they wouldn't always get a one with a star. And to take those minor setbacks or sometimes major setbacks, come back to the classroom, seek out some feedback, say, What could I do better, and then go back at it again, I just think, too many kids, sort of like you were saying, you look at one story, and you think, wow, she was probably a phenom. From the time she was seven. She wasn't, and neither is anybody else for that matter. And, you know, kids need sometimes kids need to learn that. You know, just through experience. I think for me, one of the biggest takeaways is you sometimes have these talents that you don't even know exist, and to listen to the people around you, those people that say, you've got a talent for this, that was a theme in Gwen's career. Over and over people would say to her, I'm thinking of Eric Lehmann, in high school, Gwen was a swimmer obsessed with swimming, didn't want to do anything but swim, and my track and field coach said, Your sister's a runner, I'm like, No, she's not. She's a swimmer, like, What are you talking about? She's a runner. And he's like, No, she's a runner. And I like okay, and, and he's like, and she needs to be on my team. And he, you know, he saw her as this sort of natural just, he knew she had it in her and then Glen, reluctantly, of course, listens to Eric and ends up joining the track team, you know, and then many years go by, she graduates from college. She's an accountant, somebody from Team USA reaches out to her and they say, We think you're a triathlete. And Gwen didn't even know what triathlon was like. You thought it was Iron Man, right? That's right. Yep. I thought the only option was the long course go to Kona. And I did not want to do that. It's like a 10 hour day, if you're the best in the world, basically. Yeah. Yeah. And so you know, just like, and then I think about being a teacher. And when I see in a kid a talent, like I just, I just read a poem that blew me away. And I made a point to go over to the kid and say, You are a poet. Like, if no one's ever told you before you are and like, just taking those opportunities to share with kids like you can really change the trajectory of like their lives. And that sounds like ridiculous to say, but I mean, it happened for Glenn over and over and over. No, I absolutely love that, like seeing something in someone else that they can't see for themselves, especially when you're talking about young kids, whether it's my age, the seven year olds, or up at the high school level, like planting those seeds, because we don't always see it in ourselves. It takes other people, but then being willing to listen. And they don't know what they don't know. Like, I was talking I showed him a little clip today. And the girl was talking about her MFA. And not one kid in all of my sections knew what an MFA was. So I just took the time and said, Okay, here's what a bachelor's degree is. Here's what a Masters need are like, they don't even know what I just always remind myself to tell them everything. Yeah, they don't have that background knowledge. Now how have you guys helped your students deal with like failure? And we talked about that a little bit because then you point out and Glen story to to that so she wins the gold in 2016 2012 didn't go the way that you know, I'm sure anybody wanted it to. So what lessons from from that did you guys take and what lessons do help bring that to the students? I you know, I think in my classroom, I had a top group that did music theater. He had the very best of the best. And yet, even within that small group, some would rise to the top. And there would be a small echelon of kids that always played the leads. And but within that group, I tried to find something that every kid could be great at. And so we had a whole system of senior leadership. And so somebody who may be, you know, goes through four years of high school never plays a leading role, could be a really outstanding student leader and a mentor to the younger kids. And just finding positions like that without saying this was a failure, it wasn't a failure, that you didn't play a leading role. But this is something you are really good at, and you are contributing to the overall ensemble. And we just had a whole system of different jobs. And even in my freshman choir, I had a group of about 85 Freshmen boys. Oh, my God, I still don't know how you did that. That I mean, that is a freshman boys right there. Pardon me. So that's a lot of freshman boys it is. And you know, you can imagine they were all different sizes, because some of them are really fast. And some of them are later to get tall and all different kinds. And, you know, they they find their own heroes, usually, maybe the one football guy that's singing in choir will become a hero. And we would try to find somebody else that we can present to them as being a leader. And so even in the freshman boys choir, I had a whole contingent of attendance takers. And they, I mean, they fought over those roles. They want to do their section leader, and they wanted to take the attendance to the office. And so just and maybe those kids weren't the best singers, the best singers were going to get recognition because, you know, they would sing well. So just trying to find success for all of them in some manner, and not and not refer to it as failure. Never never even think that it would be. And that's something beyond athletes. I don't know if you guys know Sara Blakely. And I've told this story before, but Sara Blakely, she's the founder of Spanx. So her story, one thing that she really puts out there is when she was growing up, like she would come home. And her dad would ask her, what did you fail at today? It's she said that he didn't want to know what what were you successful at? What did you fail at? And the whole thing beyond that? Then he would say, what did you learn from that? And what what she would go on with is she said that failure isn't not being successful. failure isn't is when you don't try when you don't put yourself out there when you hold yourself back. So giving and I love how you talk about like giving everybody an opportunity to be a leader, giving them that chance. Can you talk a little bit more, we were talking about pre chat about the process goals versus outcome goals. So what's the difference? For those people that don't know? What's the difference between process goals and outcome goals? And you put in, in the book, how concrete and how specific those process goals are? And why does that make a difference? Why do process goals make a difference over the outcome goals? That's yours, Glen? Oh, that's fine. Elizabeth wrote a whole book on it recently, but yeah, it's, you know, process goals. It's something that when I first started and was challenged by my coach to write process based goals, it was a struggle for me to come up with them. I think it's really easy to have outcome based goals. Everyone wants to win. Everyone wants to be first cheer. Everyone wants to have the award winning poem. And it's easy to say like, I want to, you know, get an A or do this and that, but that's not actually how you become successful. And for me, I'd have to go back and think, Okay, well, what are the steps that I know I can accomplish? And that I have control over so I can have the right technique? I can have the right mindset, I can get eight hours of sleep, I can eat right? These are the process things that I'm going to do in order to be successful. And I think that's, you know, going back, you know, we're just talking about failure. That's something that really allowed me to persevere through failure is when I'd have these disappointing races and things that didn't go well, I'd look back and say, Well, you know what, I didn't get the outcome I wanted, but I was doing the process, right. And I know eventually, if I keep doing the process, that the outcome will come and I'll get the best out of myself. Totally. And like you're saying it's the same thing in the classroom, right? Kids are easy or eager to focus on the grade. I just want the A and it's like, no, that's not what we should focus on because you can't control that. Same with an AC t score or an acceptance into a college or whatever it is. What you can control is the process. Can you make eye contact with the teacher? Can you stay engaged? can you contribute a couple of times to this class? Can you seek out feedback? Can you apply feedback, right, all of those things you can control All. And if you do the process, like when we're saying the outcome will take care of itself. And if it doesn't, then you're pleased because I did everything I could. Yeah. Yeah, I love that. Because we can't control we can't always control the outcome. But we can control the process we can put control what we put into it. And I love how you bring that into your classroom. I, you know, I was thinking of process and outcome goals for myself, and I want to do another race, like a foot race or, you know, road race, race. Yeah. And I want to be, you know, one of the top five females, but I'm like, I can't control that. Because what if targets and enter friends show up? You know what, but what I can control is I can put in the miles ahead of time, like when said I could sleep well, I could hydrate, I could have proper nutrition. And then even if Gwen and her friends show up, I will still be happy with my outcome, because I did everything right. That's fantastic. Now, here's some I want to ask you ladies about because this is something that as I've gotten older, is how me is visualization. And I know you talked a lot about in the book about visualizing that one, use the ton of visualizing, and she's getting ready for the race, you know, seeing every step of it, almost playing it in your head over and over and over again. Have you ladies brought that into the classroom at all? You know, when I was teaching performance, we would tell the kids that the performance doesn't start when you sing the first note, the performance starts when you open the door and present yourself to the judge. And so you know, yes, there was visualization, but there was also concrete practice, you know where you would, and you would envision what that was going to be like, and how you were going to feel with that one judge on the other side of the door and you opening the door? And then and then take it from there and say, Well, what are you wearing? And they would they would tell me? And I'd say, Well, you know, for an important judge, you probably don't want to be in your jeans and your sweatshirt, maybe you should think about something else. And then how are you going to walk across the room to the judge may say, Oh, I don't know. And I say well, you know, you probably should practice that because a confident stride would impress the judge and just kind of going through all of those things. I never really called it visualization. But that's what it was. They were imagining what would happen in a high pressure situation, makes me think back to the book a little bit when he talked about Glenn preparing for media, talking to the media. And I think that's something that we take for granted. Like, you know, these athletes, they just get up there, and they wing it. But you ladies talked about how almost she preparing herself, thinking about what what would be her talking points, understanding that once you put something out there, and the media gets a hold of it, you can't you can't take it back. So that's exactly what you're talking about with your students and going out in front of the judges and everything. Well, that was something that was not Glenn's favorite, right? She was not comfortable speaking to the media in front of these large crowds. And so she did just like mom said, visualize it, practice it be really measured and intentional with every word. And you know, even at the high school level, the local newspapers come and interview high school athletes. And I know the coaches coach, instruct them and what to say. And when we were producing our high school musicals, the same thing, the local paper would come and want to talk to the kid that's playing the lead. And we always incorporated that into part of our preparation, you know, coach them in in saying something positive and kind of think about the answers you might want to give and, and just prepare them for that. I absolutely love it. And I think you know, as our students get older in graining, that so when they go for job interviews, like they're preparing themselves, they're running through it in their own minds getting their answers and, and what they want to come across already set. So when they go in there, they're ready to go. All those little life lessons come out. I was thinking of a first hour class I had where we had some kids that were tended to be tardy every day. And I think I had the principal come in and he lectured me said, you know, the number one reason why people lose their jobs is they don't show up on time. It's not that they can't do the work. It's just that they don't come on time. So there's just so many opportunities in the classroom to teach those life lessons and instill some good habits. Absolutely. Now, Nancy, I want to ask you this question that is a parent because teachers were more than just teachers. A lot of listeners out there have their own kids. How do you support the kids, whether it's they want to go into athletics, or you know, maybe the arts, musical interests, really they're passionate about how do you support them and push them to be the more successful, but at the same time, maybe be there to help try and balance it out so that they don't get burned out. I think what you said is exactly what what I would say is that, number one, you have to give them permission to do what they love, and not, you know, not project your own interests onto the child, give them permission to find something, and then give them permission to pursue that passion, with as much support as you can give, you know, not everybody has the same financial resources. But you know, with whatever you can devote to that, that's what we did, we lived in a modest house and drove a economy car and put money away for college, so that we could support our daughters in what they wanted to do. And that, you know, that was violin lessons and swim lessons and basketball shoes for the, you know, the basketball team. So I think that's the first piece of it. And then the other piece of it is to be the adult in the room and insist on some things, you know, it's the balance of permission to follow what you want with some discipline. And I would say that's in the form of, we wanted our girls to, to pursue their passions, but school was number one, spelling lists and science projects and academics was always number one. And then we also insisted that they do a music and a sport. And that provided some balance, you know, for Gwen, who was obsessed with sport. We just insisted, you know, you're going to do music, too. And you're going to do well in school. Well, she had the person she had the personality to do well, in anything we, we insisted she do. And I know not every kid is like that. But I just think it's this balance between permission and then insisting on some some level of dedication to other things. Yes, absolutely. Now for yourself, Elizabeth, like, what lessons did you take away from that? Well, I think if we're thinking about like, parenting and the classroom, I initially thought of, when I reach out to parents with a compliment how transformational that can be for my classroom. Give a kid if I say like, who can share their poem, and a kid says, I'll share mine and they read it. And then I just spent five minutes saying, Stacy shared her poem today in class, and it was such a vulnerable and amazing thing. I just wanted you to know how proud I was of her. Then Stacy comes in and she's like, you emailed my mom, my mom was so proud of me. And it's like, you know, took me like two minutes. But then what happens is Connor hears that I emailed Stacy's mom, and the next time I say, who's gonna volunteer to, like, present their poem Connors, like, I am, will you email me, my mom. And it's like, you know, they just that little just connection that you can make with the family. I think it has a huge impact on the classroom. Oh, it truly does, you know, and making that first call or first email a positive one positive over and over and over, just like finding those little tiny things that the kids do. I think it's so rare that parents get feedback, much less positive feedback, it can just make a huge, huge difference to see the long lasting effects not only inside of my classroom, but also inside of the kid like, you know, they feel better about themselves. It's worth it. Yeah, 100% I love that. I'm thinking of some of my parents who would come to see a kid and a performance. And maybe it was a solo performance. And the mother would be sitting there just tears coming down her face, and she'd say, he would never sing for me alone. But here he is in front of a crowd and a judge and he's singing a solo. And I think just think those opportunities where where you give the parent the chance to see their child really achieving something. Absolutely. And I think it's always so important to remember like, that's their pride and joy. You know, that's their world right there. I try and always remember that with every student. Two of my favorite questions, my first question here is books in podcasts. Do ladies have any favorite books or podcasts that you like to listen? I'll take the podcast one because I feel like mom only listens to podcasts when I sent when I'm on them or when I'm really into rich roles podcast. Tell me you listen to it. Oh, yeah, I was impressed because I saw that he listened he gave the foreword to your book when I read that. Yes. a multiple of his Oh, I love ritual. So he would be like my go to if you want like positivity or life or process stuff, like he just it's all in my wheelhouse. I love ritual. And then Kim Kardashian, she has a brand new podcast, you're smiling like you're laughing at me. This is funny. Okay, um, it's all about like the justice system. And she's currently like delving into one particular case. And it's just, it's fascinating. I would recommend it 10 Oh, that's interesting. Yes, very good. Go ahead. Yeah, we're passing the book to you there. Okay. This is actually kind of an older book, but I keep going back to it. And it's one of the series, the inner game of tennis is where it started. But there's an inner game of music. And so as a musician, myself, I struggle with nerves and performing and keeping my mind on what I'm doing and my fingers from shaking. And it's just this great book on how to focus. It's kind of like focusing on the process, it's taking you off of your nerves, and into the game, which, you know, in tennis, it's the actual game in music, it's more, you know, the dynamics and your phrasing and your intonation and but I just, every time I have a performance coming up, I go back to that book, and I review all my notes and see, where should my head be when I'm actually in the process of doing what my performance, and it's called the inner game of music. It's called the inner game of music. Same, there's kind of this a whole series of them. And they're like I say, they've been around a long time. But I just I find it very helpful. It's not very often I learned something new about you, but I just did. Yeah, no, I love that. Because I've heard of like the inner game of tennis, the inner game, I believe there's one of golf that I know of music, and I give, there's not a musical bone in my body, that, so I give, like musicians or people who are in the theater, so much credit to be up on stage. And, you know, that's your arena right there. And all eyes are on you. So like you talked about, you know, going back through and, and I actually think there's a lot of parallels between music and sport. You know, like Gwen had to learn swimming, and then biking and then running, you know, in music, you have to learn the first page. And then you have to learn the transition to the second page and the third page. And it's, it's that same idea of doing a little bit every day, you can't learn how to run a marathon in a week, you have to start very slow. And maybe you only do your left hand, and then you do your right hand. And it's just this incremental progress of and, you know, following the process of how am I going to curve my fingers? And I just think there's so many parallels between what I do and, and sport and people used to ask me, Well, are you the athlete in the family? And I say, oh, no, no, I don't. I'm not the athlete at all. Then I started to think well, there's actually a lot of parallels here. There is there is now was your husband, an athlete? Yeah, he enjoys sports. He he ran track in high school, and he's always been on Oh, a bowling team or a golf team or volleyball team or summer baseball. He pitched for summer baseball and yeah. Bowling, bowling and darts. Those are such achievements there. Yes. That's fantastic. Now, real quick. So I love just getting back to the story. I think it's a fantastic story. For the young ladies for the the young men to read, because it gives a lot of this mental strength is mental conditioning. Seeing that someone's journey to greatness isn't just, you know, we're great. From day one. It is filled with struggles, ups and downs, and just so many valuable lessons. If people wanted to get a hold of you, or connect with you, what are the best ways that they can do that? I would say I'm on Twitter, right? You know, I'm always liking Brian's things. Liza, Joe Lyz, AJ Oh, otherwise, you can put in the show notes, both of our emails and our websites, and people can contact us that way. Hopefully also in the shownotes, you can include our teacher guide. So if there's a classroom that's going to read the book, we have some resources that teachers can use along with the text. The same way, you know, if a coach or even a parent wants to use it with their team or with their kids, that might be a nice thing, just to have that we're giving away to people. No, I love that. And I think it'd be fantastic for sports teams. Yeah, yeah, you know, triathlon, but it's also not about triathlon, like it really does apply to all sports all endeavors. Be that athletic or otherwise? Talk about the the signed copies to Elizabeth Oh, yeah, you can put this in the show notes to books and company, it'll kind of walk Wisconsin, which sounds like probably such a Wisconsin thing to say. But they're our local bookseller. They have signed copies. And so if people want are interested in that, there's no additional charge. You can order it directly from them. And you can put that in the show notes too. Yeah, no, absolutely. And like I said, there like you said, there's so many crossover mental conditioning points, and it's, you know, you could carry it to other aspects of life as well. So this is fantastic. Now ladies, usually I end with like one takeaway, but I want to switch it up a little bit. Since I have you both here. We'll go with Elizabeth first. What? Since you and your sister unbelievably accomplished I look at, you know, you have multiple books out. And what you're doing in the teaching profession is unbelievable. There has to be lessons that you picked up from mom. Since we have mom right here, like, what's the one lesson or one thing that mom that you could share with us that you really took away from mom, I don't know how you're going to feel about me saying this mom. But the first thing that came to mind was delayed gratification. Mom is so good at even though I don't want to do this right now. I'm just going to do it. And I'm going to do the best I can. And I'm going to put in all my time and all of my effort, even if I don't like it. And I think that that really was something that I picked up subconsciously. Mom never taught it to me. She never like explicitly sort of said it. But I just watched year after year after year, she did the right thing and want to she did the right thing, even when it was hard over and over and over. And ultimately what that did kind of like you were saying with the economy car and the modest house like that delayed gratification then came and hopefully a gold medal and maybe I don't know, like just you know, those those little things that you sacrifice that one day will pay off? Is that a bad thing to say mom delayed gratification? I think it's a I think it's an attribute. I think it's an asset. Okay, good. I'm glad you're you find it a compliment. I do. Okay. And I think beats of being able to delay gratification for the greater good, is a it's a positive, I think, and it's something that most of my circle around me is not very good at and I'm continually grateful that I had a model for how to push through even when things are not your favorite or super challenging, or somewhere in between. Thank you. Oh, you're welcome, mom, that is so fantastic. Right there, that delayed gratification, grinding it out until, you know not getting that reward right away is huge to being successful. And you can say that that's attributed to you. No, one's obviously the gold medal. But looking at you, with all the books that you have. I guess I you know, I don't think of myself that way. But you know, because I'm not like a celebrity. Like, like, maybe Gwen is. But I, I'm very thankful that we had parents that supported each of us as separate entities, you know, never was compared to Gwen and I feel equally as championed in my family. Maybe not on the global scale. But I bet you if I went into your high school, that you're a pretty big celebrity, there are a lot lot of kids that come to your classroom that you make a difference for yes, you might be overestimating juniors and seniors in high school. Awesome. Now, Nancy, I want to ask you this. So no one had to step away with the baby. If you could have, since we're close to Thanksgiving, this come out the week before Thanksgiving, just to timestamp it on, like that gratitude piece and everything. What would you tell Elizabeth? What would one thing just today? off the tip of your tongue? What's the one thing that piece of advice that you could give Elizabeth? I don't think at the moment, she doesn't need my advice at all. But I would like to say that she is a rock star in our family. And you know, speaking of Thanksgiving, the holidays if she's ever traveling or not around, the holidays are not the same. She is the spark that everybody just waits for when she walks in the room. And you know, we have, we start with dinner and she always helps. She's got a bottle of wine, and she offers to put the salad together. And then she tells me where's the pecan pie mom. But then after dinner, she's the one to organize the games and make sure everybody's included and find some activity that the whole family can do together. And you know, her cousins, as we're planning they'll always say, Well, you know, well what does Elizabeth have to have planned for this time and she's just always been that way that when the cousins get together, she's she was the teacher and organize all the games and make sure everybody had a great time and even like here with Gwen, when she steps in that door if she joins us, it's it's just a different vibe in a very positive way. Just all Thanks. Well, thank you Have you I love your you're the extrovert in the family and we are lucky to have you. Yes. I absolutely love that. Ladies, thank you so much for your time. And thank you for sharing this message. And I think it's something that so many people can take away stuff on so many different levels. And it's Thanksgiving time. And I think that this time here, like family, is everything so important. And I think, you know, seeing you ladies, and how all, all three of you interact with one another in, we didn't get to get into it, but you have another book out that talks so much about that whole family dynamic. And people don't achieve something by themselves. We can put that in the show notes, too. It's just gonna be like a long list in the show notes. Yeah, it's gonna be a long show note. So so much good stuff, though. But I think you embody everything that that family that love that being there, so phenomenal. So thank you for sharing all this energy and all this wisdom today. Ladies, my pleasure. This was such a fantastic conversation. Liz, Nancy and Glenn gave so many takeaways. Now, this is the teaching champion state, where I share three of my favorite takeaways. The first gem that I loved, is how the ladies talked about helping our students seeing themselves what they don't see it, they talked about in Gwen's journey, that there were several points in her life, where someone saw something in her that she hadn't seen in herself yet. And that through these people, her life trajectory was completely changed, being intentional. And seeing the gifts that our students have making our students aware of their gifts, helping them see it. And giving them opportunities to use these gifts can truly be transformational. The second jet is to focus on process goals versus outcome goals. We discussed it a little in this conversation. But in the book, he goes into a lot more details about how specific Glenn was in focusing on the process, and truly controlling all of the things that were within her control. And this is something that students and all of us alike can learn from, on the path to whatever we want to achieve. There are so many variables that we can't control. But if we truly focus on all the things that we can, if we show up every single day, and we focus on the process, the rest is going to take care of itself. And the third gem is family being part of that conversation, seeing these ladies interact with each other, having the opportunity to see Gwen holder newborn, and the love and the respect that they all shared throughout this whole conversation. It just showed the special bond that they all shared. And at the end of the day, that's what it's all about. A big thank you to Liz, Nancy and Gwen, for sharing so many great takeaways. And congratulations to them once again, for their beautiful baby boy. And thank you to all of you for being here. For being part of the teaching champions community. We support we encourage we lift each other up. And if you think someone would benefit from this message, please share. And don't forget to subscribe to the podcast so that you can get new episodes to come directly to you. And always remember, it doesn't matter if you're from rural America, to urban America, to Canada to Spain to Bahrain. We're all on that same team. We're all on that same mission, and we're always better together. Keep being amazing, my friends, and as you go out into the week, May step into strength may step into your shot, and let's build our champions up. Have a great weekend.