The Expert Effect: Learning From, Becoming, and Teaching Others as Experts with Zach Rondot and Grayson McKinney

What's going on everybody? I hope this finds you striving and thriving and doing absolutely amazing. Today on the teaching champions podcast, I'm joined by Zach Rando and Grayson McKinney. Zach is a fourth grade teacher and Grayson's, a fifth grade teacher. They're the authors of the expert effect, a three part system to break down the walls of your classroom, and connect your students to the world. And they're also the authors of the children's book, expert expedition. And in this interview, listen to how they take their students from learning from experts to becoming experts, to teaching like experts, and they share the power behind project based learning. And they explore different ways that our students can showcase their knowledge beyond the classroom walls. The gentleman drops so many gems in this conversation. I hope you enjoy. Today, we have Grayson McKinney and Zach Rando with us. And I just want to welcome Grayson and Zack to the teaching champions podcast, I'm fired up to have you guys here. So welcome. Thanks for having us. Thank you so much, Brian, this is gonna be a good one, because I connected with Grayson a few weeks ago. And recently, I've been hearing a lot about bringing experts into the classroom. And when Grayson and I connected, I saw that they had a book called The expert effect. And I knew right then and there, I needed to have you guys on here. So I can pick your brain and learn from you guys and for all the listeners to learn from you as well. So super excited to have you guys here. Now, before we get into the book, let's say a little bit about your backstory on Grace, and if you want to start. So I have just finished my 15th year of teaching. And I guess we're kind of getting towards the edge of the summer. So I should say I'm about to begin my 16th year which is just crazy to say it's it seems like it's flown by. And I've taught everything from kindergarten Spanish through sixth grade multi age classrooms, and but currently I'm teaching fifth grade in the Troy School District in Michigan accent How about you that? Yeah, I'm a fourth grade teacher. I teach to classrooms down the hall from Grayson. So we're we're very close by. I'm just about to start my 10th year teaching. That's always been like a big milestone to me saying that also sounds sounds weird. But yeah, I've taught third and fourth grade she entire time. I taught two years to third grade. But most of my experience has been in fourth grade, which is where I'll be again this year and excited. Just stay there. Excellent. And those milestones, they come up a lot faster. And what you think it's amazing how fast time flies? Yeah, yes. And we've had a unique situation here with the three the three male elementary educators. But that doesn't happen very often. Not at all. And it's it's pretty awesome that you guys connected. And I know we'll probably get into this, but you team talk a little bit early on. I've never worked with another male educator outside of the special areas. So this is pretty awesome to connect with you, gentlemen. Where are you going to corns? Brian? Absolutely. So you have this awesome book called The expert effect. Can? Zack, can you tell us a little bit about your book and how it came about? Yeah, of course. So Grace, I've been teaching together for a while and very early on. We took on a position in our building called technology chair, which we have split ever, ever since we started basically, working together. Part of that position began as some technology training but also leading professional development for our building. And then, you know, it's something we both realized that we really liked doing we had kind of a good good vibe together good mix. So we started doing district level professional development that we started speaking at local and regional conferences, I'd say, I don't know probably didn't close to 4050. Now, like, over the last few years, and through that we kept kind of honing our ideas down we to different things and it kind of came down to three big ideas, which I gotta give Grayson credit for naming those ideas. We were talking about a lot and he kind of like, named it like, well, we're talking about learning from experts. We're talking about getting our students to become experts through Project Based Learning During, and then we're getting our students to teach like experts. So once we kind of have that framework, it really the book really started with a Google Doc that had those three ideas. And then we spent an afternoon and just hammered out, like all the different ideas we had. And we kind of formed those into chapters. And then we spent two years from when we put that those three ideas in a Google doc to when it came out, it was a two year process of really writing it honing our message getting our best ideas out there. Yeah, I'll add, as Zack said, beginning, beginning off, we were doing technology trainings that were like, you know, it helping teachers integrate technology into their classroom, and we were doing app training and, you know, sharing our favorite apps for video editing, or, you know, ways to get kids to, to show what they know. And over time it it turned from technology training into this bigger, this bigger idea, which is to really make the learning that kids do relevant to their lives engaging, so they're excited to come to school, and giving them the chance to share their learning really cements it in place. And it's those big projects that kids look back on. And remember, long after they left, they've left our classroom, you know, even more than an app that they may have used for a one time, you know, a one off project. This is this is like changing the way that teachers think about both delivering content in their classroom and then getting getting kids to, to reflect on it. No, and I think that's great. And from reading your book, it is like that three tiered system. And I really love how you talk about early on in the book. And we'll get into this about reaching out and getting those experts and you take it from reaching outside and with technology, I think the classroom laws have been broken down. And that we can reach out to places all over the country. And we can bring in these people with a wide array of knowledge into the classroom to connect with our kids. And then you talk about taking it from them and going through a process till the very end where the kids are the experts. And they're taking it in. They're sharing it out. So phenomenal book and the step by steps that you have are great. Now, we talked about bringing experts into the classroom. How did that come about? You know, who are some of the experts that you have brought in? Zach, go ahead. So it started with like the idea that, you know, when I think back to school, I think of my teachers and I remember as a kid in elementary school thinking about my teachers were the smartest person in the in the room, you my friends would try to ask questions and see if we get the teacher to be like, Oh, I don't know that. But our world has changed so much, since those, you know, early, mid 1990s. And we as teachers don't have to be the smartest person with all the answers anymore. And in fact, I think if we're pretending that we're the smartest people and have all the answers, we're not really opening all those doors for students. So getting experts to come in and share on their expertise is a way to kind of branch out and get help our students get other people's perspective on something and talk to someone who's actually doing the work. So one of my, one of my favorite examples of a few, but one of them we do an extreme weather project in fourth grade every year. And kind of the way it goes is it's a research unit where students are assigned in groups, either hurricanes or tornadoes, they research it and based on the prescribed curriculum, they're supposed to kind of do like a poster presentation to the class at the end. Well, we tried to expand on that. And my our teaching partner reached out to a local meteorologists just sent a quick email like, hey, what do you do you think he could like Skype in with our class, we're learning about weather and he responded right away. He's like, can I just come into your classrooms, I love getting into classrooms and talking to kids. So he came in, he had the whole fourth grade, he answered all their questions, he taught us about how to help meteorologists stand in front of a green screen, how they can never wear green clothing on air. Because that and all that, you know, background information. So then what we did is instead of our poster presentation, we I asked, he's talking I'm on Amazon ordering a green screen. So we hung up a green screen and then the students got in front of it and did their whole presentation with a background either like a hurricane scene or a tornado or a flood wherever they're located. And I think that project really elevated when we brought that meteorologist into the classroom. And also, we always say, you know, it's not just a one way thing, this is good for them. They put our class picture on the news the next morning that show off they're doing some good and the community has a positive PR for them too. And the kids were obviously came running into school they just saw themselves on the morning news. It was like you know just added that other layers if we're just so much better than me just pretending that I know everything about weather and trying to be the head teacher on on all of it. Awesome. Yeah, the kids had to love it. seeing themselves up on the news. I'm sure that that they were fired up about that. Now, what's your experience with that? Grayson? Yeah, I was gonna say something earlier when Zach was talking about, you know, how we started our book and, and had put our three main ideas into a Google Drive. And the working title for a while was elementary experts, because we were both elementary teachers. And and we, you know, we were talking about learning from experts, becoming experts, and then teaching others as experts. And eventually, we kind of realized, you know, what we have to scrap the title elementary experts, because this is applicable at any level, I just finished up a middle school summer school camp that was that ran for the last two weeks in my community. And I was working with, you know, incoming seventh through ninth graders, so kids that are a little bit older than the age that I'm interested in. And when I started getting into project based learning, and like talking about their passions, and what they were interested in, they were interested in fields that I have zero experience, you know, Robotics Engineering, I had one one, brother, sister partnership, who wanted to build a machine that would basically, you know, recreate single stream recycling on a small scale, like that was their ambition, they wanted to help help improve the recycling process. So because they had read a statistic and their research, that in Michigan, something like only 15% of all recyclable materials actually get recycled. So they saw that as a problem, and Mr. McKinney Can, can we talk to like a material scientists because we have some questions. And as they were, like, describing what they needed to know, and you know, it was flying over my head, I was like, You know what, I don't know anything about that. But I can definitely try to hook you up. And so I use the website, Skype, a scientist, and Skype, I think they started that, that when Skype was the powerful, you know, video conferencing platform, and zoom has kind of since taken over, but within a day, I got matched with the scientist, according to like what I was looking for. And we've talked with a PhD professor from Carnegie Mellon University, and, you know, they were able to ask their questions to the person who, you know, I was able to put them in touch with the person who would really be able to answer their questions. And it might have been, you know, a little bit above their level. But again, it opens up their eyes to a wider a wider range than just just the teacher who's in the classroom with them, like, you know, kind of gives them a picture of like, oh, I never even knew this was a career. I didn't know, I could do that. So I think bringing in experts not only helps with the content, but also just kind of expands their worldview and shows them that what they're learning about is actually relevant. And it's something that, you know, they might be able to become one day. Absolutely. And that's, that's pretty awesome to be able to talk to somebody from Carnegie Mellon. And just like you said, we're not going to have all the answers, right. And a couple other things I want to talk touch on real quick is, and I've heard you guys say this in another podcast, part of reaching out. Number one, we're planting great seeds. As we get older, you know, sometimes we hesitate to reach out to other people that could help us along our own journey, what we need to know. But I also heard you guys talk about, because we're all white men, that not every student that we have, looks like us or might be able to relate to us. And I've heard you gentlemen talk about that you've reached out to other areas that these students that don't look like us can see themselves in some of the experts that you've brought in, which is so pivotal and key for that. Yeah, and I'll just do one more plug for Skype of scientists, because as part of the process, you know, you fill out a Google form of what kind of information you're looking for. And they've been asked, they say, like, you know, do your are your students from an underrepresented population? Would you like to be matched with a scientist from the LGBTQ plus community or, you know, an African American neuroscientist, you know, you can get kind of specific, which is really cool. And I think that representation is so important. And that's, that's something that both Zack and I have done in our own schools, too, you know, when it comes to learning about Native American history, you know, we want to do we want to do these topics, justice. And so we're reaching out to somebody who has the knowledge and who has spent their entire life, you know, collecting and building their own artifacts and doing their, their research, it really makes a difference and it gives the kids like a very authentic view into that into into that subject area. Yeah, that's phenomenal. Now, I know you guys started co teaching together for a while. And it sounds like that's where the project based learning really came to fruition for you guys. Could you get into that and talk about how that transformed your classroom? Great smile, you start with the Yeah, so the the co teaching experience you're talking about is when Zach and I were both teaching fourth grade. And at the time, we were the only male teachers in the building. And we were the, we had a small section of fourth grade relatively small, there were only two, two classrooms. And since our classrooms were right next to each other, we went to our principal and said, you know, what would happen if we opened up this flexible wall between our rooms, where we combined our rooms, and we had 56/4 graders all in one giant space, and it sounded great. And we did some summer planning, and you know, like, how we were going to do things and how we were going to navigate this. And we found very quickly that teaching, as usual, was not going to cut it because you couldn't have 56 kids all coming to the carpet at the same time. And, you know, sitting and sustaining the attention, and just the noise level from that many people in one space was was a barrier in itself. So we we quickly realized that we had to do something different. And you know, project based learning, if you have not tried project based learning, the first time you try it, it's like somebody has flipped a switch. It's kind of like magic. seeing kids get excited about a project, where they're interested, they have the driving question that they want to figure out and find out and they're going to do the research and create something like as an artifact of their learning, and then be able to share it with the world. It's like, it's like going, the engagement level is just incredible. And so with that many people in the room, we knew that we had to find something that was going to capture kids attention span, give them the flexibility to you know, incorporate their own skills and abilities into this project. And some of the results that came out of that first year, were just, you know, we still remember them today. I'm a big board game fan. And I love playing like Settlers of Catan with my family. And we took that board game, and we kind of rearranged the hexagonal tiles and made a shape that resembled the mitten of Michigan, right? So we call the settlers of Michigan. And, you know, I, in order to teach about the different competing interests and in the region, you know, Michigan history as part of was part of our fourth grade curriculum. And so we were playing this game as a group and and it went went pretty well. But when it came for kid came time for kids to choose their own topic that they wanted to go a little bit deeper into one group came up to us and said, Can we make our own board game to teach others about the War of 1812. And so they kind of spun that idea. And they use the same board game pieces, but they they wrote a game that was going to help kids have fun and learn about the War of 1812 at the same time, and like, seeing the board games or you know, groups creating models of tools that were used around that time, or, you know, building building models of like Fort, Fort Mac and on and things like that. It just got kids so engaged. And we saw something, you know, just really magical and giving kids the chance to have voice and choice in their learning. So yeah, I can add on a little bit, I think, you know, through a lot of PD and presenting that we have done, I think when we bring up project based learning, I think a lot of teachers have a lot of misconceptions right off the start. And it's like this, sometimes it's fight or flight idea or the like, think project based learning is like you just like sit in your chair, and you let the students do everything. And then they feel like they're not doing their job. Well want to clear that up that through project based learning there is still teaching, you still have the teacher many lessons, you still there still a lot of instruction. I think the big like you students can't create something if they don't know anything about it. So a lot of the immersion phase is still like teaching mini lessons, guiding them to the resources, letting them then letting them open up, once they have some background information and doing some resource research on it. But I think the big switches that we're trying to get students, instead of just like the traditional model of soaking in information that we tell them, and then they memorize a fill out a multiple choice or short answer tasks, and then we're done with it. The point is where with project based learning is getting students to produce or create something with what they've learned to not just consume, test and forget. Because we know that when students have to create something that they're going to present to people when they have to stand up be the teachers on the topic. That's where that learning gets, like really cemented in place. And that's where it, you know, follows them they actually remember it. It's not just sit, learn, take a test and forget. So I think that's the big distinction. It's not that we just like our rooms and chaos. And we just said, now from an outsider, if they walk in and students are creating projects everywhere it does, it can look a little chaotic. But I think that's where the magic happens. No, absolutely. I believe that the kids the engagement piece when you talk about that voice and choice is so huge and it has to make that learning so stick here and probably when the kids come back and see you, their favorite projects, or what they remember, most are probably these project based learning projects. Now. And for myself, as I go into this school year, one thing that I want to do is I want to incorporate this more. So I'm starting to unit off for project based learning, what would be some tips that you have found successful through trial and error that you would give the people that then might not be used to given the project based learning but want to be successful at this? I would say two, I would say the first thing is just start small. I think we tried to say this in our book. But you know, this is a collection of eight, nine years worth of stories, it's not some of these projects are not done every year, you kind of have to learn your class and learn which ones are going to like, different classes have different personalities, and you can jump down different rabbit holes. But a big thing is also like you got to become as a teacher, you kind of have to become an expert on your curriculum and knowing what you're going to teach. Once you do it a few times and know your curriculum pretty well, you know where those rabbit holes are that you can dive down. But my biggest tip to start would be to not try to recreate every unit of your entire school year, start with one, start with one unit that you know, is coming up and think about what experts could I reach out to. And again, this is something that is something I'm not great at. But you kind of have to think ahead plan ahead and like start reaching out a couple of weeks before because you don't want to reach out to someone and say, Hey, we need you tomorrow. Right? You kind of do have to do that planning ahead of time. So I would say pick one unit in your curriculum, and really try to dive into it, where you think about who who could I bring into my classroom, and you don't, they don't have to come and physically over the last two years, everyone knows how to zoom. So it's so much easier to get people virtually to pop into your classroom for 2030 minutes. So think about who can you bring in? And then what can students create to showcase their learning at at the end of it? And I think that's a great way to start with one unit. Great. Yeah, the I think, you know, the, the phrase that resonated with me is like, what are students going to create, like, it's not just about consumption. And so we want them to be creators. And so a couple of a couple of tips, number one, reach out to parents early on in the year and like, you know, at our open house, at our parents curriculum night, we always kind of go over the units that we know are coming throughout the year, and just put the put the idea out there like, you know, we're looking for, you know, fifth grade teachers, a journalism writing unit. So what I know that in October, we're going to be looking for people who are who are experts in that field, if you know, anybody who writes for a newspaper or magazine or has an online blog, you know, we start thinking parents about who could we bring into our classroom, we'd love to see, see your family members up on our big screen or in person. So reaching out to your, you know, your own parents and in your, your own school community is a great place to start. Because people want to help, you know, parents are always asking, like, how can I help in the classroom. And that's another another great way to get parents involved. If you know that you're going to have a couple of people that you want to reach out to, or if you're looking for local businesses, you know, if you want to have kids learning about entrepreneurship, having a parent contact person, a person who can like help set up those experiences might be another really good way for parents to get involved in that in that process. You know, they're always asking, how can we help and so hey, yeah, if you could start reaching out to, you know, local, local realtors, we want to learn more about our community. And so that could be some a parent job. And then the other thing is just building relationships with your kids and getting to know what their interests are, and finding their interests. And as a way to hook them into the content that you're teaching. The summer school program that I just referenced earlier, a teaching partner of mine had a group who was really interested in fashion, and he did not know how to sew, he could not crochet or embroider or whatever it takes to create garments. But he had a group of about, you know, eight, eight girls that were really passionate about fashion design and, and making their own clothes. And so, you know, if he hadn't built those relationships, you might not have known that about them. And he might not have found a way to tie in what he was trying to teach with their interests. And so he ended up getting them to create an online fashion magazine, where each article was about a different social issue. So issues about animal animal abuse, poverty, food insecurity, but then they tied it to a either a fashion designer that was, you know, using sustainable materials or an outfit that kind of represented, you know, sewing bow ties for dogs and things like that. I don't know I'm not the fan. shouldn't. But he found a way to make make it relevant for them and give them an experience where they were, they were hooked and literally and figuratively hooked into into what he was teaching. So that's such a great idea we all have, we have those students that no matter what they're engaged, they're focused, or they're high achievers, but we also have those students that they know their stuff, it's just, they're disconnected or schools might not be the typical school day might not be their thing. So like you just got done explaining, finding their niche and being able to tie it in. And that engagement piece just is so crucial and awesome. Now, in your book, well, you do a nice job of so you talk about the project based learning, you talk about bringing in the experts reaching out to them connecting. But then you say the final piece is making your students the expert. Can you talk a little bit about that, Zach? Yeah, so it's we want we want our learning that the students do not to just live within our classroom, we want to give them a platform in which they can share their learning in a way in which they want to share their learning. So at the end of project based learning, it's there's a lot of choice involved on how students want to showcase and share their learning, which can there's a lot of low tech ways some students want to do a play, they want to act out a play, they put together a script, they get dressed up in costume, they create props, they make something and they act it out. And we can, you know, we can, we can film that post it to one platform, we've used a lot of seesaw. So parents can have access to it, the other kids can rewatch it, they can leave comments to them. Other ways we have done that are a little bit more complex, as both of us have classroom podcasts. This is something I started four years ago now. And it's something that I started because I love listening to podcasts. And I wanted to give a podcast platform. So every year, I introduce it to the families, they send a permission slip. And that podcast, we do a lot of whole class episodes. But it's also open for small groups of students who want to showcase their learning from a project in the form of an audio podcast, where they write scripts come up with parts, and do that. So that's called the fourth grade innovators podcast. You can search it on Spotify, Apple, it's a really cool way. And something that students love. We know, you know, at the beginning of every school year, what you asked question, what do you want to be when you grow up more and more and more, get the answers of YouTubers. So instead of kind of fighting against that, having a podcast as a way to embrace that mentality, and I can also show them the analytics and you know, show them on Anchor as the platform I use, that our podcast has like around 5000 views from like 50 different countries around around the world. So when they see that, and they know that it's getting heard in different places from different teachers showing their classes are showing their students. You know, it really just amps up the level of engagement all around. That's fantastic. And for students to be able to sit there and like you said, you can bring up with that platform anchor and show it show your students say your knowledge just as an inside this classroom, you're broadcasting it all over the world. How the excitement in that engagement level for that is pretty has to be pretty off the chart. Yeah, yeah, of course. Now, do you do want to there, Grayson, do you have your own classroom podcast as well? Yes, we do. So as soon as we saw the success that Jack was having with his fourth grade innovators, podcast, my at the time we had, I had moved to fifth grade. And so my fifth graders wanted to have some of that Limelight also. And so we started the fifth grade futurist podcast. And it started out as a podcast for them to share their learning that they had done around the United Nations, Sustainable Development Goals, the SDGs for kids, and that also grew out of our journalism unit where they were they took a problem, like, you know, helping helping animals preserve their habitat, or, you know, cleaning up our oceans, things like that. And we kind of group them based on the SDGs what what number of these goals their topic was related to and together, they kind of rewrote their journalism article into a podcast script. We listen to some podcasts to see how podcasts go with a great introduction, you know, you know, how is it broken up? How is it structured? And they wrote their podcast scripts and then they they publish them and they love seeing just like Zack said love seeing the statistics love seeing where their family from around the world. You know, I've got a lot of kids from whose family has come from India. So getting to see where in India, our podcast was being listened to. They're like, yeah, that was my grandparents. That was that family that probably listened to it there and just that and it kind Have grew. And over the years, it's we've we've taken on other topics, but always connected to our learning. We did one season that was about going beyond Black History Month. And we were learning more about African American history in our country, and again, tying it into things that kids were interested in. So I had a sports group, you know, some of my boys that were really into football, they wanted to research, black athletes. And so they put together a podcast about some of the greatest athletes of all time. And another group was, you know, talking about police brutality and things like that. So all kinds of different topics, but it's, again, related to student interests, but connected to our curriculum. So podcasting is a really easy way to get kids to share their voice with the world and feel like they're actually making a difference with their learning. That's phenomenal. Now, I guess from my own curiosity, I want to know a little bit more about this. Do you guys have a set schedule that you release your episodes up? Now? It's very sporadic, and at different points of the school year, it's easier to do than other points of the school year, it's harder. But you know, we this past school year, as I'm sure ever everywhere, and everyone knows, it's extremely chaotic. And then, in the last like two weeks of school, my class we had like, finished our math curriculum, we just had like an extra hour in our day, I think we put out like six podcast episodes in the last four days of school, which was like as many as we did in the first eight and a half months of school. kind of drives there. But I was grateful to talk to you and one more thought about that I had a group of students. They asked me at the end of the year, their former students, I read their seventh or eighth graders, but they were in my class in fourth grade, the first year, we started the podcast. And they emailed me towards the end of the year, and said, Hey, we had this presentation for our middle school class, can we come back and present to your fourth graders? Like Absolutely, of course, so they came in, and at the end, I pulled up the podcast analytics, and I'm like, You guys are in? I think they're finishing seventh grade. And like you're finishing seventh grade, your podcast episode with your voices on that you recorded in fourth grade got 10 lessons last week? And they were like, Wait, that I'm like, Yes, every week, people are still listening to your voices. And they were just like, made them so excited. And you know, that was the first thing they asked me when they emailed me. Hey, just wondering, do you still do the podcasts? Like, yeah, look it up listener new episodes. So it's something that obviously has stuck on and a reason why I've continued to do it every year. Yeah, that's gotta be, I can imagine the kids all sitting around the microphone, how exciting that would be. And then when you get the finished product, and you play it for them, and they can hear their own voices coming out, and then to be able to go home, and do that as well. Just has to be phenomenal. Awesome. Now, you guys also have outside of the expert effect. You've dabbled into the writing children's books now. Can you tell us a listeners a little bit about the children's book you have written and what it's about? If you want to go Grayson? Yeah, absolutely. So the expert of fact, was our book that for teachers and other educators, and the expert expedition is the book that we've written for kids, and it has the same ideas and the same message. But Zach, and I wanted to have a way of like taking this philosophy and bringing it directly to the people who, who it's going to impact the most, which is the students. So the expert expedition is a rhyming picture book that actually came out of a, like, it was basically a passion project that we had last summer. It took us about a year to create it, and get it illustrated by another teacher in our district. So it was completely teacher created. And it just was published in May of this year. 2022. That's fantastic. So let me give you an example. So the three parts of our professional development book, getting kids to learn from experts, becoming experts in their own right through project based learning, and then teaching others as experts was, again, the outline that we used for this children's book. And we kind of like said, like, we want to have a couple pages about learning from experts, a couple of pages about creating something useful to your community, and then a couple pages about how you need to share your learning with the world. And from there, we kind of filled filled in those those ideas with rhymes. And then when we finally connected with our Illustrator, we were telling her about all of the examples of projects that our students have done. And so every illustration in the book is actually based on something that our previous students have, have done or have been interested in. So it's, it's very, it seems very, you know, widely applicable, but it's also incredibly personal to us because we you know, we didn't want to highlight our ideas. We wanted to highlight our students voice And that's what this book has become. And since it was published, we've been able to visit schools around our area and go in and read it to kids of all different grade levels. And it's been really, really well received so far. That's so good. And I know you said, Kids of all grade levels, which one would you say is geared more towards primary intermediate or a mix, either one can benefit from it, I think I'd say the complete, like the sweet spot of it would be like second to fifth grade. Be the most that we've had teachers and even outside of teachers, I've had a lot of friends with kids, you know, read it to their their young kids and say that they've loved it, it's a great message. But I think our biggest like when we set out to write it, one of the biggest things we wanted is to create a book that teachers could read to their students, like at the start of a project based learning unit to kind of launch them and get them into that mindset that we can learn from experts, we can create something we can take our learning, and share it with the world. So I think that's like, our was our sweet spot with it. And then it's just expanded, we wanted to make it general enough that not just teachers, but parents could read it to their kids, kids could enjoy it on their own. And I think we've heard from all all of those things that it's accomplished that that's so good. And that's something that I definitely want to check out. And being at the primary level of second grade teacher, like the messaging is so important. And I think we can take concepts like what you have and plant those seeds into the kids like being curious, haven't reaching out to experts becoming an expert to yourself. And I haven't gotten to look at the inside, but I've looked at I was on Barnes and Noble. And I know in the background, you have the book like The for primary teacher, like the visuals, the pictures are pretty important because they tell a story too. And just looking at the cover your book that's on point. And yeah, you can definitely see Grayson's holding up right now that the kids are going to love the illustrations as well. So the messaging is on point, the illustrations are on point, it's something that the kids are gonna love. We hit the jackpot with our Illustrator Sariah Ali Ahmed shoot, she is amazing to work with and absolutely crushed, crushed the project for oh, yeah, that's fantastic. Yeah, one of the things like echoing back to what you said about, you know, getting kids to learn from people who look like them. And not necessarily like us, the diversity of the illustrations were really important to us, too, we wanted to make it so that all kids felt represented. And, you know, when I've, I've read it to my, I've read the rough drafts to my previous years classes, and I and I was able to share the published version with my most recent class. And as I showed them, the pictures, they're like, that's us, that's you put us in there, that's, you know, I've got the girls who do the traditional Indian dance, and I've got a student with, you know, the the transgender colored you know, transgender colored flag and his shirt. And, you know, we've got the Infinity rainbow symbol for autism. So we want again, we want it to represent our students. And we want it to make them feel seen, and, and heard. And so for them to, for them to know that they're being represented in a book that's going to be read by people around the world. That was pretty cool, too. And it just goes with the philosophy that kids are worthy of learning from experts, right? We need to connect them with that scientist, because they deserve to learn from the best. And we also want kids to feel like they can they in themselves can become the experts, you know, follow their passions, and pursue pursue a career that's going to make a difference in the world. So it's like you said, it's all about the messaging. That's powerful. I love that, that kids are worthy of being learning from the expert, and they're worthy of becoming the expert. So fantastic. Now, a couple questions that I always ask my guests, because I'm a big book nerd. I'm a big podcast listener. What are some books or podcasts that you gentlemen would recommend for the listener? Zach, if you want to start with yours? Sure. Um, let's say a book that I've read many times that I intend to read again before the school year starts is the energy bus by John Gordon. I think after the last couple of years of what we've all lived through, I think me personally and I think everyone could kind of need that reset and that positive jumpy as we head into the school year so that's on my August reading list for sure. And then a podcast that I absolutely love is called the ED my let show and it's like a personal development type podcast he brings on the just a wide range of guests any episode. You can either learn from a doctor about health and diet and nutrition you can learn about financial things you can learn every time I listen do an episode that just gets me thinking and gets my brain going about about something new that ultimately betters me. So those would be two, my two things that I love to read and listen to and what I would recommend. If anybody is interested in like, you know, starting a podcast with their, with their classroom, I would definitely recommend checking out podcasts meant for kids and listening, listening to them with your classes. And I've got three kids between the ages of three and 10. And we listened to wow in the world, almost nightly, it's a science podcast from from NPR. And that is, that's a great one. Another one a really great one for kids, it's fun to listen to is story pirates. So just if you're interested in getting, you know, getting your kids the feel of what, you know what Podcasts can sound like, those are really good kid appropriate ones. And then personally, I like I like the creative classroom with John Spencer. He's just, you know, He's so honest and thoughtful. And he talks about, you know, learning from failures and just growing creativity and really organic ways. That's a great one that I always find inspiration and and then one that I love to listen to just while you know, mowing the yard or grocery shopping is let's K 12, better hosted by Amber Coleman Morley and her three children. They started it during the pandemic. And they talk about issues related to education. They talk about current events like as, as a family, kind of like around the kitchen table. And it's just really great to listen to and hear. Hear this woman and her her kids talk about current events and how they how current events can actually affect kids and get the kids take on it too. So yeah, I love that. And I love that you dropped some podcasts, not for kids that you guys can listen to is a family and fantastic and some new podcasts that for me to listen to. And I was listening to the ED my let show yesterday. And last week I listened to the energy bus. So we're on the same page. So how as we wrap up here, how can listeners connect with you, Zach, how can listeners connect with you? Yeah, I'd say the biggest two areas are Twitter and Instagram. So on Twitter, it's at Mr. Rondeau. And Rondo is r o n d o t on Instagram. It's at Zach Rando. And yeah, have those are the two most popular places to find me? Yeah, same thing for me Twitter. I'm really active on Twitter during the school year, not so much maybe during the summer, but I am G McKinney to on Twitter. And then Zack Can I actually created a an Instagram account for all things related to experts learning, you know, examples of experts we're connecting with and ways that our kids are sharing their learning. And that is at expert effect edu on Instagram. And we also, with the launch of our children's book also developed a website for teachers that we're continuing to add to and build. We've got some blog posts there and that is expert effect. edu.com. Excellent. If the listeners wanted to check out your classroom podcast if they were interested, what what are the names of your classroom podcasts again, minus the fourth grade innovators podcast. So if you just search fourth grade innovators on Apple, Spotify, or wherever you listen to podcasts, you'll find it there. And we are the fifth grade futurists and that was based on a book by David Garin, which is another I should have mentioned that when you're asking about what we're reading, future ready, that's it. That's a great one by David. Awesome, awesome. Now, as we wrap up, what is one thing that you gentlemen would like people to walk away with? Sure, yeah, just, you know, learning should be fun. And we need to remember that and, you know, education has been through a rough patch. And there's there continues to be a lot of negativity, but, you know, kids come to school, and they don't know about that, or they don't care, care about that. They just want to have fun. And they want to, you know, have good friendships and connect with their teachers. So we are all about that we're about making school a fun place to be a place where kids want to be instead of have to be. And we think that by making school like this dynamic place where we've got experts coming in, and kids are making things that they're passionate about, and then you know, telling kids that their ideas are worth hearing around the world. I think it just changes the changes the climate. And it's you know, not to boast but it's it's inspirational to other people. And when you're doing that in your classroom, I think it's contagious and other teachers will feed on that positive energy and it becomes it becomes a way of a way of doing business in schools. 100% Yeah, well, so what I would say is just, you know, kind of a boil Our whole message, everything we've talked about can boil down to a couple questions that we can ask ourselves as teachers. And that's, you know, who can we get our students to learn from? What can we get our students to create, and who can they share their creations with. So if we boil it down to those three things, to get them to learn from other people, create something awesome. And share with people that get them excited. I think that's a great way to, you know, to make our learning exciting. And something we've said in the book, and I'll end on is that when you give students the opportunity to amaze you, they usually do So given those opportunities. And I think you'll be amazed as a teacher as well. I love that. And that can grace. And thank you so much for being here, for sharing so much wisdom and knowledge. And I see what you guys do, you know, I can tell I just listening to what you do inside your classroom, and listening to what you're doing with the expert effect, listening to what you're doing with your children's book, you're making a huge difference. And it's not just within your school. So thank you so much, my friends, this has been a treat and a pleasure. Thank you so much. It was awesome. This was such a great conversation, Zack and Grayson, they have so much to share, and they have an extremely bright future ahead of them, I have a feeling that there's much more to come from these two. Now, this is the teaching champions tape, where I shared three of my favorite gems from this conversation. And the first gem is when Zach and Grayson touched on how we don't have to know everything, that when we're willing to expand our reach beyond the classroom walls, when we open up all of those possibilities to our students, we make that learning piece more relevant, we make that learning piece more engaging to them. And how impactful is it to know that all of our students don't look like us. They don't have the same background as us. But we can expose them to people from all over the world. And these students can see themselves in every field imaginable. And they can make connections to these people. That's pretty powerful. A second gem that I loved is how they allowed their students to become experts. And then they gave them the platforms where their students could share the knowledge that they learned with others that were beyond the classroom walls, whether it was creating projects in seesaw or their student led podcasts, the excitement, the buzz that that creates for them, to know that they're going to be able to create something that their parents or other loved ones are going to be able to see or hear. And it's not just the loved ones that are in that student's home. It's loved ones from across the country, and even across the globe. Plus, think about that homeschool connection, and how that strengthened by doing projects like this. The third gem that I loved is how they made it a point to point out that we need to start small, that we need to slowly integrate this into our curriculum, and to just start with one unit that first year. Because think about how we rush into things. And then we end up getting overwhelmed. And we might not give ourselves that room to learn from experience, and then adjust. We end up getting frustrated. And then we end up abandoning this. So I really appreciated the reminder to start slow to learn to adjust and then add more slowly as time goes on. And these are just a few of the amazing things that these gentlemen shared. Hit me up on social media at B Martin real on Twitter. And let me know what were some of your favorite takeaways from this conversation. A big thank you to Grayson and Zack for such a fantastic conversation. And thank you to all you for being here for being part of the teaching champions community. We support we encourage we lift each other up. And if you think someone would benefit from this message, please share. And always remember, it doesn't matter if you're from rural America, to urban America to Canada to Spain to Bahrain. And we're all on that same team. We're all on that same mission. And we're always better together. Keep being amazing, my friends and as you go out into the week may step into your strength may step into your shine, and let's build our champions up. Have a great week, everybody