Episode 97 | Authentic Leadership Starts with Identity | Dr. Eric Moyer

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speaker-0: Today, I'm excited to welcome Dr. Eric Moyer. Dr. Moyer is a former secondary math teacher who has worked in educational research after earning his PhD in educational psychology. In this episode of the Lead with Hope podcast, we're gonna be diving into his work, including the framework for identity that he describes in his book, Redeeming Identity. And we will be discussing what identity-based leadership

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Brandi Kelly: What happens at the intersection of educational psychology and biblical truth? Today, I have former teacher and researcher Dr. Eric Moyer, and we explore why manipulating outside activities isn't enough for true growth. Instead, we have to address the deep set issues of identity to transform how we think, feel, and lead.

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speaker-0: truly looks like for leaders. So get ready for a truly insightful conversation. Welcome to the show, Dr. Moyer.

speaker-1: Thank you for having me. Glad to be here.

speaker-0: love asking my guests this first question. I you to tell us your story. Tell us about you.

speaker-1: Great, thank you. Well, I actually started off as you said, as a math teacher, and I always feel whenever I say that to people, I taught algebra, taught geometry, I taught pre-calculus, and I always feel like I have to apologize to people because I come from a field where most people go, I don't like math. Okay, I get that. That's okay. But...

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speaker-1: I went into it because one, I enjoyed it, but I also knew that there was in world that we live in that mathematics had the ability and the opportunity to ⁓ open doors for individuals. And I wanted to help. You're going to get theme here that ⁓ I really wanted to people grow. And I wanted to be able to open up doors for them to become everything that they could become. And take away some of sometimes their own preconceived of what they could do, what they could be. Many times ⁓ they in with an idea that they didn't like math because their parents didn't like math. They had a bad experience with a math teacher. So I off with that. ⁓ And as can tell, ⁓ I am about it. ⁓ And moved into consulting and worked with schools and districts around ⁓ best curriculum for their philosophy and their understanding of how they wanted to see kids learn. Moved my the next step though, is I moved kind of ⁓ out of public and moved into ministry for a number of years where I worked with my wife in youth ministry and children's ministry and worked with churches around central Texas and around the country. but then God does something kind of funky and he, he kind of closed some doors ⁓ and was kind of figuring out what was my next step. And I back into ⁓ education and went was encouraged to go back and get my PhD and worked at getting my PhD in educational psychology from the University of Texas at Austin and have been working in that field for the past, I want to say 15, 20 years at this point. The fun part though was one class, educational psychology, specifically human development. the professor ⁓ going to spend a week working, discussing with us and teaching us about the role of identity. And that just hit in a way that, ⁓ or me in a way that I had never really thought before. ⁓ That many whenever trying to help people grow and develop, what we typically do is we try to manipulate the outside, the activity, the things that they do, the things that are very easily seen. in psychology, a lot of it goes much deeper and says, really the thing that you need to ⁓ is the identity. And that led me, started me on like a 10 year, five to 10 year ⁓ journey ⁓ looking identity. an educational psychology standpoint, then also bringing the work that I had done in ministry and Bible and bringing a biblical perspective ⁓ of that overlaid on top of that and seeing how those work together and complement each other ⁓ and people really understand what the goal of it is. But then on top of that, how do we get there?

speaker-0: Yeah. And you can tell reading your book, Redeeming Identity, and I have it right here. I don't know if it's going to show up on my screen, but with that, you talk about identity and how we kind of have counterfeit identities. Can you tell us a little bit about that?

speaker-1: Wow. actually one of the big themes ⁓ this idea that we, ⁓ have our culture right now, ⁓ this message you basically yourself to be anything that you want to be. And I don't want to minimize the idea that there's desires and passions and that we have the freedom to become a lot more sometimes than what we expect. But ⁓ sometimes I What we do is we get to a certain point in developing ourselves and working on ourselves from an identity perspective is not easy. It's challenging. is sometimes you have to deal with really interesting and deeply set issues that you have and deep set principles that you've been working with. And many times what I've seen is that we get to the point that we settle. and I use the idea and I use the term counterfeit because that was really one of the best ways I could describe it. It's like, getting a pair of sneakers. My grandson loves sneakers and he likes finding these genuine like first run sneakers. He would never settle for going out to a store that sold sneakers that were counterfeit. Now they looked really close. but they weren't quite the same thing. But so many times in our identity and who we are, we've gotten to that point. We know that there's more for us. We know that there's something more that we were created for, but we've settled for this counterfeit that looks close. It kind of, I've had it for a while. I know how it works. It feels comfortable. it, it, can work with this. I can settle for this. and we end up settling for a counterfeit understanding of who we are and who we could be rather than really working towards who we really were meant to be.

speaker-0: you and I have that in common, the ⁓ to help people and to help them become who God created them to be. I recently had a guest on here. ⁓ is the founder of Anchored in Purpose, Melissa Wilkinson. And was talking about the idea that God will give us our heart's desire. ⁓ God us a vision for what the future. holds for us, you know, and it's not that name it and claim it. religion, that's not what I'm talking about. ⁓ I believe in order for to get that vision from God, you have to first and foremost, come into relationship with him. You have to have ⁓ that intentional time where you're that relationship with him.

speaker-1: Mm-hmm. Absolutely.

speaker-0: And over time, just like right now, you and I, we have met each other a couple of times. I couldn't even begin to imagine what your future is going to look like. But when you walk with somebody, in and day out, you to know them better. You get to know their patterns and their behaviors and how they're going to react to things. That's what God wants from us. He wants us to have that intimate relationship. with him. And I believe it requires that for him to give you that vision and to be able to have your gifts fully unfold.

speaker-1: That is one of the things everyone quote that verse in the Bible is that God will give you the desires of your heart. And that has been ⁓ so ⁓ in culture where we have this idea that ⁓ God the genie in the bottle. ⁓ And we have to do is we have to pray to him and we have to keep praying. We have to have the faith, but God is going to answer your prayer. But the challenge is, that sometimes he's going to say yes, because it really is exactly what he wants for you. But sometimes he's going to say no, he has something for you ⁓ is different than what you may be desiring at that point. And what he wants to do is he wants to transform you, your heart, your desires, your passions, ⁓ that ⁓ desire the things that he desires. And then you're praying in alignment with him and you're working in alignment with him. And then he's going to say yes.

speaker-0: No, it's alignment. Yeah, that's the perfect word for what we're talking about. It's in alignment with him. we all have adversity. We all have difficult things that we face in life. It's not if, it's when. And you talk about sometimes God yes, sometimes God says no, but you know what's the hardest? When God says ⁓ not yet.

speaker-1: Mm-hmm

speaker-0: Wait, let's develop your patience, Brandy. I'm in a season of my life where I feel to my core that God is working on my patience. that is the hardest, is the waiting.

speaker-1: Mm hmm. so, so is true. but I remember my mom, that patience was one of the things that if I was a kid, no patients whatsoever at all. And I remember told, I told my mom, was like, I'm going to pray for patients. mom, my mom looked me and she said, ⁓ okay, now just understand If you pray for patients, Here's how God's going to work it. He's going to put you into situations where you're going to have to develop patience. not that God just says, ⁓ okay, here you go. There's patience. The way that he ⁓ patience and in, it's all in the epistles. ⁓ He Paul says, ⁓ count all joy when you encounter these things, because when you encounter these things, these trials, these difficulties, they bring And it's through those situations where we have to wait on him, we have to wait on his timing there so much struggle because we're trying to figure out what he's doing in the meantime.

speaker-0: Absolutely. And sometimes the easiest way to win a power struggle is to let go of the rope. And you're never going to win a power struggle with God. So you might as well surrender.

speaker-1: That's a good way to think about it. I it. I have to remember that one.

speaker-0: Eric, you have developed a framework for identity. So you talk about that in your book, Redeeming Identity. Tell us about your framework.

speaker-1: Okay. So whenever I was doing my research on identity, and especially from a Christian perspective, what I found is they found that there was this great overlay from the psychological side. most of the times, whenever you hear about identity, what you hear is you hear ⁓ talking about your purpose. Your identity is your purpose. It's what you do. ⁓ And I read all of those books and I'm like, okay, there's, but there's something missing there. And then I heard that I read that it was about your perspective. There's books out there that say your identity is your perspective. And I kind of a step back and I said, they're all true. They're all correct in all of these different things, ⁓ they haven't quite figured this out because they're all tied together. And the four things that we actually, The way that we defined identity is by what we call the four Ps. The four Ps are our principles, our perspectives, our purposes, of course, and our priorities. So it gets us away from thinking about identity being from the outside in. It's not defined by what I do. It's not defined from my family. It's not defined where I live. It's not defined by my ancestry. Our identity is really what are those things that we, those four Ps that we hold at our core that define everything that we think, feel and do.

speaker-0: I have walked into a season my children are grown. My husband and I are empty nesters now. I have recently left my career in that I spent over 20 years climbing the ladder, going from worker to superintendent. And I think that it serves us all well to spend some time to really think about your identity and you give us that framework to look at it through the principles, the perspective, the purposes, the priorities and make sure there's alignment there.

speaker-1: the biggest thing that ⁓ think there's the two parts to the alignment. There's the alignment to ourselves that what we say we believe, that's the authenticity part. Whenever say I believe something, that what I'm really, do I really demonstrate that? was having a conversation with ⁓ someone this week where that was really the whole, a lot of the discussion ⁓ was we say this is important to us, but then our priorities are something different because we're choosing something different. But the second part of it goes to what you were saying earlier is, and this is where I think the redeeming identity comes part of it is we also need to be sure take time ⁓ to reflect allow God to show us

speaker-0: Yeah.

speaker-1: where our identity aligns with his what he has and the identity that he has created us for. it's, we always talk about that whenever we're talking about this idea of spiritual growth, what we want to do is we want to make sure that our principles are truths. ⁓ What define as truths really line up with what he says is true. Or are there places that He says something is true, but we've accepted and I'm going to take that, go back to that counterfeit. We've accepted a truth that the world has said, this is what's true, but it doesn't line up with what God said is true.

speaker-0: Right, it's gotta line up with the word of God, the Bible. Then we know that those principles are truths. And work that you're doing at the intersection of psychology and faith and leadership development is exactly what I love to do. And when I work with leaders today in schools, and work through coaching or leadership development,

speaker-1: Hmm? Yep.

speaker-0: A lot of them are stretched thin. are ⁓ their max capacity. They're at the edge of burnout. What would you say to them? A meaningful place to start when leading with hope and purpose.

speaker-1: Wow. There's so much there. The two places that I have, whenever I've sat and chatted or talked with leaders that are kind of at that burnout place, there's a couple of different places ⁓ ⁓ think it comes to, or I've, I've seen it ⁓ kind lead to sometimes it's an issue of priorities. And I kind of start start there because that's how we make our decisions. I think sometimes leaders feel like they've on too many priorities for themselves. ⁓ One of the stories I talk about in the book ⁓ is idea how to, ⁓ an older an older businessman is telling a businessman how to

speaker-0: Mm-hmm.

speaker-1: how to align his priorities. And the, the older gentleman tells the younger man right out the top 25 things that you should do. And I think all leaders could be able to do that. And then he says, circle the top five and he does that. And he says, Oh, I get your point. The younger, the younger gentleman says, I get your point. What I need to do is I need to prioritize these top five, spend most of my time here. And then I to take the other and kind of sprinkle time around those whenever I need to. the twist there is, the older gentleman says, no, that's not the lesson. Those five priorities are your priorities. Take those other 20, circle them and write on them, avoid at all cost. Because those are the things that are to drain your time from really focusing on the top five things. And sometimes with leaders, they take so many things on top onto themselves. ⁓ them first identify what are those priorities? What are those things that ⁓ ⁓ need to be focused on? You need to be doing these are the things that is your that you're about. That thing goes to their purpose. And then as you talk to them about their purpose, they're like, okay, well, I have to do all these other things. we just went through priorities. If is really what your purpose is supposed to be, then those other are just taking those that time away and how, then we need to start thinking about how part of your purpose is equipping other people. And so there's lot. I think there's a lot to going into leadership. That's a really big question. But I think there's a, love the idea of the identity because it gets down to who you as a leader and what, are places that are not aligning ⁓ to what should be as a leader? And I know one of the things that I've always struggled with is I'm, ⁓ I'm a person likes to make sure everything is done right. sometimes letting things go and letting other people learn through the process and your job is not necessarily to focus on just the outcome but focus on the training and the teaching of them so that they can grow so they can be better equipped so that the next time they have to do it they can do it better.

speaker-0: It makes me think about a story that I wrote in my book, Lead with Hope. And, you know, it goes back to your childhood and you carry these things into adulthood, into any, roles or positions that you assume in life. And my mother had asked me to clean the floor, mop the floor. And what does she do when I get done cleaning the floor? She goes back and she does it again. And that plant a seed. that we have to take captive our thoughts. We have to consider why we think the way we think. leads to the behaviors And at ⁓ the onset this question, you said that meaningful place for leaders to start to do that priority list and circle those five things. That's where they need to start and then spend their time. on what is their priorities because that is going to align with their purpose. It's going to shape their perspective and then they need to make sure that that lines up with the principles.

speaker-1: The print. it all. all works together at all. It all reinforces each other. And whenever worked with pastors with this idea of ⁓ using and counseling, it's it's ⁓ is disconnect ⁓ is is disconnect in the priorities? OK, if it's the priorities, let's work on that. ⁓ But then once kind of understand the priorities, a lot of times that like you said, demonstrates that there's this this disconnect in your purpose. And it's just working your way through that. And what you're constantly looking for you're looking for that cognitive dissonance that we that place where we this what ⁓ I'm holding to as part of my identity. But this what I'm recognizing. This is what I should be living into. that's That is the place of learning. That is the place of that positive struggle letting the old go, what grew up with ⁓ and into what you become.

speaker-0: I think that's why I love counseling and coaching so much because you can really spend some time. You can give yourself time and space to evaluate your cognitive distortions because we all have them. We all have limiting beliefs, cognitive distortions, whatever you want to want to call them. And we need to really look at how we think, what our priorities are and line this up so that we can have a life that we love, not a life that, you know, we're counting down the days until Easter vacation or spring break. And so many times when you go into a school, that's what you see. You see teachers and administrators, really all school staff counting down the days and When you're counting down the days, the older you get. There's not as many left. So let's enjoy the life that God has given us. And something that I have started doing in this last year is every day when I wake up, I'm cognizant of my mindset and I am reminded that God has given me another day and I thank him for that day. And I ask him to set an intention in my heart to live out my purpose and my calling. And it just, it changes the way I approach the day from the time I open my eyes in the morning. It's powerful.

speaker-1: it's, ⁓ it changes our perspective. And I think that that's a big part of the, what we bring into our world is perspective, the way that we go into the world and the way that we interpret things. I think of the blessings of my is, having ⁓ gone so many different and she was ⁓ such an encouragement as I ⁓ working through the book. but she looks at our life and she says, isn't this such an adventure? And every day is an opportunity for whatever the next adventure, whatever the next thing that God is going to lead us into the next person that we're going to meet the next opportunity that he's going to show us who he is in a different way and show us who we are or who we could be. And I look at it from, was writing something yesterday and it was ended up in Philippians with Paul where he says ⁓ I press on, ⁓ press onto the mark of the high calling. And I had to stop and think about that. The high calling of Christ is that wasn't pressing just to do something more. He had that vision, like you said, ⁓ at very beginning of God is working ⁓ me transform me into who he's always designed me to be so that I can both glorify him. but then also that I can experience everything that he has for me. the peace, all that the fruits of the spirit, like you were, like we were talking about earlier, the peace, ⁓ the the kindness, the goodness, the love, ⁓ all those things are natural of when we're living into who God created us to be.

speaker-0: I love that scripture and it is a beautiful image because I think it's Matthew 5 16 says that we are to be a light in this world. our light shines so much brighter when we are drawing closer to God.

speaker-1: of the images and ⁓ I always love is word comes from that word glorify and If ask lot of people, what does that mean? Well, it doesn't means to glorify And yes some some will say well glory means weight Another way that it can actually also be interpreted as light and so another way that you can look at whenever we are glorifying God, what we are doing is we are being mirrors. are being the image bearers. We are being the reflectors of who he is. ⁓ whenever the Bible says that we are supposed to be the light of the world, it's not that we are reflecting our own light. ⁓ we're doing is we're reflecting his light. And like you said, the closer we are to him, The closer we draw, we understand, know Him, we allow Him to align our principles, purposes, our practices, all of those ⁓ Him, then we are reflecting Him, meaning that we are reflecting the light.

speaker-0: And we are called to become more like Jesus each and every day. ⁓ this journey, that is goal. And ⁓ now I have just finished chapter six your book. And one of the that I underlined was when you were writing about the story of Jonah.

speaker-1: Exactly.

speaker-0: and he got swallowed by the whale. it says, although getting swallowed by a great fish may seem like a serious punishment, it was part of a cautionary tale about rebelling against God's redeeming process. We are very self-centered, selfish beings. And so Jonah was rebelling. Everything that we do comes from who we are. out of our identities. And the scripture that you cite here is Jonah 4, 2, for I knew that you are a gracious God and merciful, slow to anger and abounding in steadfast love and relenting from disaster. So many passages when we're talking about identity or a lot of other things for that matter in the Bible, it goes back to that concept of love. We make decisions out of selfish interests, fear. But if we can default to a love mode instead of a fear mode, or I even say more of a hope mode, hope and love, know, faith and love, what a powerful combination. Yes, that's perfect. But when you when you

speaker-1: effect.

speaker-0: We're writing about that. I'm curious. Can you kind of unpack that a little bit more for the listeners?

speaker-1: ⁓ that was such a great, great learning opportunity for me that God took me to because I saw the story of Jonah from a completely different perspective. was a teacher and have he's Jonah. you about it is God knows that he has created him for a purpose to be his prophet, ⁓ to be ⁓ message bearer ⁓ people to say to say his words to bring his truth as you said earlier to be to bring his light wherever he went ⁓ sells him. Okay. I want you to do this. I want you to take my light. Take my message, ⁓ just to the people that you like, but to actually the people that you hate to the people, ⁓ ⁓ hate them. I hate them. I love I still love

speaker-0: now.

speaker-1: still desire my best for them. ⁓ want to see them come to repentance. I want to see them saved. ⁓ ⁓ is where that cognitive dissonance comes into play is Jonah is saying, I know this is true about you, but I don't like it. I don't, I don't feel that way. I don't feel love for these people. I don't like these people. And so he and runs in the opposite direction. we know the story. They finally find out that on the ship after the storm that comes to him ⁓ and try that these pagan people ⁓ on ship are better to Jonah about his own belief in God than him. So God is constantly showing him this cognitive dissonance. until they basically say, he says, just throw me overboard and you'll be safe. He was willing to be thrown overboard rather than a change in his principles and his perspective ⁓ align them to God's. But God doesn't say it isn't finished with them. And so he has the fish come and swallow him and take him to the bottom of the depths. for three days and God is working on them. God is trying to get him not recognize the distance difference in what, he and what he believes in his perspective and God's perspective, but let go of ⁓ let go his, his ⁓ and align himself with God's. And eventually in the ship, the fish, he does eventually pray and okay, ⁓ I I'm going ⁓ allow, I'm to do what you called me to do. So he aligns his purpose with God's, but the story doesn't end there. It's still showing us that there is this disconnect, this ⁓ difference between because even whenever he goes into And then he gives the shortest sermon with the greatest impact ever. And then he goes out and he basically says, I'm going to wait and see what happens. And he's hoping that they don't repent. the identity transformation that God desires hasn't yet fully come and God is still patient. And God still takes him through this. So it was an amazing thing to read through that and look at it from not a perspective of what should we do, a perspective of ⁓ is God, who was Jonah and God's amazing desire to see Jonah become the that God created him to be rather than the Jonah that he he ⁓ stubbornly on to. And that's so much like us, is we stubbornly hold on to that we know are not good for us. We know that are not what God wants for us, but is so patient and God ⁓ so loving that he continues to desire his best for us, even whenever we desire that best for ourselves.

speaker-0: as I was reading that it made me think about cultures. It made me think about how sometimes in cultures, leaders will say, or even the people may say that that culture is toxic. And when you look at a culture that is toxic, oftentimes you have people in there that are hanging on to ⁓ habits that don't serve them to maybe thought processes that really get in their way and keep them stuck where they are. as you said with Jonah, Jonah had to let go. Sometimes we need to let go of what we think life is going to look like and give it to God so that he can show us what he has for us. as I was reading through that, there were some experiences personally that, you know, putting that, that mirror up to myself, that self-awareness. And I was kind of processing that and I would encourage the listener to do the same thing. Where your life or in your leadership, do you need to put that mirror up and look at yourself? Where don't you want to change? What habits are you engaging in that no longer serve you? Are there some mindset issues and you need to examine that and to make some changes. Change is hard, it's uncomfortable, but that is how we get to where we want to go.

speaker-1: Well, and I think the one of the messages of redeeming identity is that the life of a Christian is going to constantly be change. It's going to constantly be growth. One of the verses that is key to really this, and I don't know if you've gotten to that point yet, is where Jesus says, if anyone wants to follow me, he must deny himself, take up his cross and follow me.

speaker-0: Yeah.

speaker-1: we out of that what we called the three S's of chain of transformation. It's the ⁓ submit and substitute. It's are we willing? I mean to for Jonah in that story, he was the beginning unwilling to submit. That ⁓ he it. could see the difference. He could he could tell you the difference in the in the perspectives. that God had and the purpose that God had and the purpose that he had, but he wasn't willing to submit that to God and then allow him to pick up your cross, sacrifice that, let that go, put it aside, whatever word you want to use for that, but then replace that with the perspective or the purpose that God has for them. that is that constant ongoing of transformation of looking at at who you are in light of who God is and allowing him to just make those small transformations. love the last time you and I chatted, you gave this phrase and I've used it several times, which is it's progress, not perfection.

speaker-0: Yeah.

speaker-1: And that's what God is looking for. He is looking for people who are making those daily choices of progress of allowing him to transform them into who he's called them to be. And it could be a, just a principle. It could be something as small as a truth, it could be something as big as a perspective. But wants to daily. you take little steps to become who he has created you to be.

speaker-0: When I was getting my master's in social work many years ago, I had a professor ⁓ that frequently say, it's a process, not an And we want these things to happen like that. We live in a fast food society where everything needs to come quickly. We need to have our ⁓ dopamine hit let's move on. But... these things that we're talking about, especially an identity, it's a process, not an event. But I think because of sin, and you talk about this in the book as well, because of sin and because of the fall with Adam and Eve, until we go home to heaven one day, we're always gonna have somewhat of an ache in our heart, missing because we were meant to be with God ⁓ sin is what separates us. drawing to him fills some of that God shaped hole. And we can, we can draw closer to him and we can better understand our identity and do that through the frameworks that you provide in this book. And I would strongly encourage people to go out and to check out Redeeming Identity, Restoring the Heart of God's Design by Dr. Eric Moyer. The stories in here remind me that life is always speaking. Eric, I'm gonna put in a shameless plug about a book that I'm working on right now, and it's called When Life Speaks, and it's stories from the Bible. like the one you just told today about Jonah. Life is always speaking to us. It spoke back in Jonah's day, it speaks today. And God is always talking to us if we will listen. So we conclude this episode of the Lead with Hope podcast, I like to close with ⁓ last question. And that is Eric, for you today, what's giving you hope in the world right now?

speaker-1: well. I think the biggest thing that gives me hope is knowing and seeing that God is still moving. I know that there are people that are out there that think that God is distant he's huge and he is far away. But the truth is that he can be that, but he is also present. And you said, as if we are willing to quiet ourselves listen and really seek him, then can do amazing things, not just in our lives, but as he changed our lives, we can have the impact in our world and our culture. And think that that is ⁓ one the things that gives me hope is that ⁓ is finished with us. ⁓

speaker-0: Yeah, love that I I have said that myself and recently that God's not done with us yet. He has a plan for our lives that is bigger than we could ever imagine. Jeremiah 29 11 reminds me he reminds us of that in that in that verse and so This has been a powerful conversation, Eric. I could go on talking about identity and psychology and faith and leadership development all day with you. But as we wrap up this show, I want to give you an opportunity to share with the listeners how they can get in touch with you.

speaker-1: Well, easiest way to get in touch with me is through my website at redeemingidentity.com you can email me. It's just info at redeemingidentity.com. If there's any way ⁓ I can help ⁓ ⁓ are in this process of discovering who you are in any aspect of your life, from leadership to parenting, we here to ⁓ really with you. ⁓ All we are are people on the same journey seeking to this looking to the same God

speaker-0: Thank you, Eric. And it's been such a pleasure getting to know you and talking with you today. Thank you for coming on the show.

speaker-1: Thank you for having me.