Episode 275: From Compliance to Connection — Rethinking Classroom Engagement with Megan Diede

Darrin Peppard (00:00.726)

All right, my friends, welcome into episode 275 of the Leaning Into Leadership podcast. Let's talk about something that I am hearing everywhere right now. So school leaders walk into classrooms and frequently what they're seeing is this. Students totally dialed into their devices. Their heads are focused right on those screens. There's very minimal interaction and there's this growing question in their mind.

Is this really engagement? Is this really where we want to be instructionally? Some leaders are even saying things out loud like, maybe we just need to go back to paper pencil. But what if the issue isn't the tool? What if the issue is connection? That's exactly where today's conversation is going. Now, before we jump in, I want to take a quick moment and thank our sponsor for today's episode, HeyTutor, because here's the reality.

When engagement is low, it's not just a classroom issue. It becomes an academic support issue. Many schools right now are feeling that pressure. They want to provide targeted support, but they don't have the staffing. They don't have the systems, or they just don't have the time to do it consistently. That is where HeyTutor comes in. HeyTutor delivers high-dosage tutoring in math and English language arts, both in-person and online, with

trained tutors who integrate directly into your school system. They align to your standards, they provide real-time data dashboards, and they take the burden off of your team so your teachers can stay focused on instruction. If engagement and learning gaps are both on your radar right now, HeyTutor is a partner worth looking at. Hit the link down in the show notes or go to heytutor.com and tell them you heard about them here on the Leaning Into Leadership podcast.

Once again, that's heytutor.com. Okay, let's dive into episode 275 where my guest on the show is Megan Deedy. Now, Meg is an instructional expert. She is a former classroom teacher and someone who is doing absolutely incredible work helping educators rethink engagement and not from a compliance perspective, but from a connection perspective. And I will tell you, this conversation goes deeper than most.

Darrin Peppard (02:26.07)

because Meg and I aren't just talking about strategies. We're talking about what engagement actually looks like, why so many classrooms are missing it, and what leaders can do to create the conditions where both teachers and students thrive. Let's get into it with Meg and Deedee. I'll see you on the other side.

Darrin Peppard (00:01.07)

All right, everybody, welcome back into the show. Joining me on the show today, Meg and Deedee. I'm so excited to have this conversation. Meg, welcome into Leaning Into Leadership.

Megan Diede (00:11.809)

Thank you Darren for having me. I'm very excited about our conversation today.

Darrin Peppard (00:16.43)

Yeah, absolutely. So, you know, I was, I was having this conversation. You and I talked about this a little bit before we hit the record button, but one of the schools that I support, we were doing some walkthroughs not long ago, myself and a few of their administrators and one of the building administrators as actually the building principal. After we stepped out of about the fourth or fifth room in a row where kids were just kind of glazed over on their, on their Chromebooks. He said something like,

I'm just ready to go back to paper pencil. We've got to see more engagement. And I totally understood that. I've heard it in some other places, not just the tech piece, but everyone I talk to right now is talking about how do we increase authentic engagement in the classroom, right? And so that's something I hope we can get to today. Maybe just real quick before we start running after that, Meg, just.

Tell my listeners, our viewers on YouTube, just a little bit about you so they have a little bit of a grounding in our conversation.

Megan Diede (01:22.343)

Absolutely, Darren. Well, I'm Megan Deedy. I have spent the last 15 years as a classroom educator. I taught second and third grade. Absolutely loved it. Didn't really go after that principal type role. I really loved being the leader in the classroom and helping my teams. In recent, I just left the classroom in May and now speak full time, helping educators all over the nation do exactly kind of what we're going to talk about today is that authentic engagement and small shifts in your instruction.

I live in a little town in Wyoming. I also have four kids. Yeah, go Pokes I have four children three boys and a little girl Yes, the little girl is the last one and she is not spoiled. She is loved so Aside from learning all of the kids stuff at school I'm also learning what it's like to have a high school student and a elementary student in my roof and and how that works out

Darrin Peppard (01:56.834)

Go Pokes!

Darrin Peppard (02:22.615)

So for the record, you could have just said I'm from Wyoming and left out the small town because that's all there is in my home state. But nonetheless, and actually you're from a bigger small town in Wyoming than, but it's a small town basically everywhere else. so let's go right at something that I just said. You mentioned it before we hit record. I just mentioned it with the administrator I was talking about who's like, I am just ready to go back to paper and pencil.

Megan Diede (02:26.967)

That's right. Yeah.

Megan Diede (02:34.005)

This is true.

Darrin Peppard (02:49.709)

I know a lot of the work that you do, the bulk of the work you do is about that engagement, the shifts in the classroom, that kind of stuff. But let's start with the school leader, because we have a ton of them listening right now. Are they wrong to think that? Are they wrong to have this knee-jerk reaction to throw the Chromebooks in the street and say, let's go back in time?

Megan Diede (03:12.885)

You know, I think if you've been in education long enough, we've all felt that pendulum swing, right? And we're like, well, we tried this so long ago and it didn't work and we swing back.

Having technology in our classrooms right now seems like a really huge shift that we've made and kind of like the only thing. I don't think we should take out tech at all. I don't think we should just strictly go to one thing or the other. I think technology has a very purposeful use in classrooms. But that's the word that I want to lean on is that it's purposeful. I think back a while ago when technology was first getting introduced, we talked about the SAMR model.

When you were using technology, you had to base it on this model of substitution all the way to redefinition. And you wanted to kind of play in this area of where it hits in your lesson. And I think we need to kind of go back to that mindset of we don't need tech all the time, but we don't also need paper pencil all the time. There needs to be this integration that's purposeful for instruction to get to our students.

Darrin Peppard (04:21.729)

Yeah, think that's very, very well said. think certainly if what you're seeing as a school leader in the classroom is the technology is just a shortcut to not stand in front of the Xerox machine, then yes, you're probably right to say, yeah, we gotta move on. If we're using fillable worksheets on the Chromebook, that's no different than just doing some simplistic, you know.

You know, DOK level one worksheet. That's not what we're looking for. But I think you make a really good point. And I think those of us who've been around education for any period of time, that, you know, that model that you referred to, you know, in thinking about, you know, not just simply having it as a substitute.

it's really, really important. So if I'm a classroom educator and my administrator is coming in.

What might be some things that I can share with my administrator? Because I know a lot of administrators are struggling with this right now. So let's now shift it over to the classroom teacher real quick. I'm that classroom teacher and my administrator's coming in. I've got a great relationship with my administrator. They're not just coming to tell me you need to do this. They're coming and asking, like, what's working? What's not working? What might be some things that teachers should be sharing back to administrators who are kind of stuck on this teeter point?

Megan Diede (05:46.847)

Yeah, and you know, I think a big part of it is that, you we have required curriculum that we have to teach. We have standards that we have to meet and it becomes a coverage problem, right? We have to cover everything. We have to get it all in and then that leads to disconnection, which then leads to disengagement and our students are then kind of starting to fall. So one thing that I think our classroom teachers need to start talking to their leaders about having that conversation of what does true

instruction look like? You know, it's not let's follow the script every day exactly the way it's written, but it's small instructional shifts in what we're teaching our students. It's natural differentiation in that tier one piece and letting us, the classroom teacher, if you will, take risks in that instruction. Be able to try something different and if it flops, then we go to plan B, right? It's not the end of the world or if

If it goes really well, I'm wanting our leaders to see that chance of what we're trying in our classrooms to try to engage our students, get that natural differentiation piece. In turn, when that happens and our leaders are supporting that and giving kind of a little leeway in their instruction, they will start to see that that tier one is very solid. Our students are starting to grow. Therefore, our test scores are getting better, behaviors going down. I mean, it's just all of those things

or that umbrella that we're struggling with right now in our classrooms.

Darrin Peppard (07:20.907)

Yeah, for sure. And I think one of the, you said a lot of really, really great things in there, but the one that I want to jump at right there is allowing or creating that environment as a school leader where teachers are comfortable taking risks. You know, what you just talked about reminded me of a story a teacher I used to work with when I was a building principal. And fortunately he described, that's kind of what our relationship was like too. He would just say, hey, I'm going to try something new in my classroom.

Come and just give me some feedback and just tell me hey if that flops just don't do it again You know, but but let's let's talk a little bit more about that in in terms of How do we help? Teachers because you're right right now coverage, you know, you know the the all-important state assessments we're getting pressure from school boards from you know state legislators from the federal government all kinds of

different things that as classroom teachers we can't control. As building administrators, we can't control. But creating that environment where we have the opportunity to take some risk. I've always believed if my teachers feel comfortable taking risk, their kids are gonna feel comfortable taking risk. So let's maybe talk a little bit about that. Maybe some, I don't know, maybe some guidance or support that you might.

Megan Diede (08:24.523)

Right.

Megan Diede (08:38.881)

Yes.

Darrin Peppard (08:47.628)

share with school leaders, with classroom teachers on how to collectively lean into the connection between the administrator and the teacher to create that environment.

Megan Diede (08:59.831)

I love a couple of things. First of all, Darren, you are right. We can only control what we have control over. We don't have control over things coming down from as a classroom teacher. We don't have control over what our leaders decisions have to be and so forth. Our leaders and what's above that. It's out of our control. So what do we do next?

The second thing you did is what's the connection between? And that is the heart and soul of my work is connection and purpose and to give a definition in connection as it relates to what I talk about, it's the intentional bridge between people and purpose in education. It's beyond, it's beyond building relationships, right? I need to make connections with my teams. I need to make connections with my students and I need to make connections

with the content. And when those three pillars come together, that's where we start to see this amazing results of happy teachers, Esthetic leaders and our students are starting to grow. And it just is this amazing place to be and to work in. So how do you build that connection between the leader and the teacher so that those things can start happening? And that's where the teams comes into play.

When I first started teaching, quick story on this, I started in my new school. I was a third year teacher and I joined a team with a veteran teacher and a brand new teacher.

When we got together, we were very excited. We're coming with new perspectives, new ideas, and we thought this is going to be it. The veteran teacher was kind of the approach of a la carte, I'm going to pick what I can from the curriculum, know, sprinkle in a little bit of this, do some of that, and that was kind of her style, right? She could teach a math lesson on fractions and miss the parts that she didn't really want to teach, but yet still get across her students, right? The new teacher took a different

Megan Diede (11:02.091)

approach. She needed this very follow the script curriculum. She needed to be this next step black and white just to kind of get through it if you will. And then there was me. I was kind of a little bit of both worlds. I wanted to follow this but I wanted to have my own authenticity in it and what we found was with our team we started to have this disconnection. It was disconnection because our teaching styles were so very different.

It wasn't until about halfway through the year that the veteran teacher walked into our PLC meeting and she sat down, a coconut and a hammer right in the middle of the table. And we just looked at her like, what is this? And she said, so a student brought this in today for snack and I'm supposed to open it for her before they get back from specials.

Darrin Peppard (11:42.451)

Okay.

Megan Diede (11:53.459)

In that moment, we connected. We connected because we were problem solving what was gonna come next. We were gonna try to Google how to open this coconut. We live in Wyoming. Were we going to tell the student, no, like what comes next? And we ended up laughing and connecting and problem solving and coming up with a plan.

That moment made us realize that as much different as our teachers are, that still coming together and connecting allows us to not just think about our students just in our classroom, but think about our students as a whole grade. And once we kind of figured that out, right, as much as our lives were different at home, our teaching styles were different, we connected on different levels, and we're open enough to share ideas and share kind of some flops and some good wins.

And that connection with our teams gave our students the opportunity to have that growth. And it was just a little less stressful, if you will.

Darrin Peppard (12:55.446)

So how did you open the coconut? I have to ask because everybody else wants to know.

Megan Diede (12:58.199)

I know, you know, I would love to say that there was a little bit of attempt with a small hammer that was brought to school, but unsuccessful nonetheless. So she got a snack out of the snack bag instead, but it was a great story nonetheless.

Darrin Peppard (13:16.492)

All right, it is a great story. But it really does highlight the importance of the connection. I like how you said it, and maybe I want you to go a little bit further with this, just to crystallize my thinking and the thinking of everyone who's listening and watching. You said early on in that piece that that connection is beyond relationship. We talk about the importance of relationships.

all the time. You probably can't open a Facebook group that's related to education without scrolling and seeing something quickly about relationships or listening to a speaker. You and I both are in that speaking space. We know a lot of speakers. Somebody's going to talk about relationships at some point. But you just took this a little bit further. So I just want you to enhance on that just a little bit more because there are people thinking, wait a minute.

Megan Diede (14:12.459)

Yeah.

Darrin Peppard (14:14.09)

What's the difference? To me, connection comes before relationship, but that's not what you're saying.

Megan Diede (14:19.349)

You're right. So first I want to clarify that building relationships is definitely important. It has to happen. It is a solid foundation. But if I were to walk into a classroom tomorrow that I've never met these students before, I need to be approachable, right? I'm the teacher. I need to have this sense of...

But, okay, but I don't, I can still make a connection with you through the content that I'm teaching you without having a solid relationship with you. So when I talk about the connection is more than building relationships, it most definitely is. You are finding the path that your students learn best by. It's not a one size fits all approach anymore. It's not a sit and get, it doesn't work. We're in a swipe society and so we have to be able to reach our students at multiple different levels,

multiple different pathways in order to connect with them what they're learning. But also, as the teacher, I have to be able to connect with what I'm teaching, the content piece of it. I have to understand, first of all, what it is that I'm teaching. I have to have a good understanding of that. But then how can I make small instructional shifts to connect to my students? It doesn't have to be a complete revamp. It doesn't have to be a Pinterest-worthy classroom. All those are amazing.

don't have time for that type of flip in our classroom. So it's those small shifts that really make that big impact.

Darrin Peppard (15:49.836)

Yeah, absolutely. And I think what I'm hearing you say, and this ties in very well, I think with what I believe, I mean, the relationship piece is something that's built over time. It doesn't happen immediately. But the connection is, and your coconut and hammer story is a great example of, here's something that hooked all three of you, that you were now, okay, this is relevant because...

We have this kid coming back from recess who expects a snack. We gotta figure out, we gotta solve this problem. What you're talking about is not necessarily does it just have to be making those relevant connections to the content, although that's extremely important. It's making those connections in a lot of different ways. Is that a fair way to talk about connection?

Megan Diede (16:39.423)

Yeah, Darren, I think if both of us went to go listen to a professional development, right, we're going to take away different pieces based on how they delivered that content to us. You might be a very visual learner and the visuals are something that sticks with you and that's what you take away. While others in the audience are very auditory, it's everything that they're saying where some of us needs more of a hands on approach. It's what we're doing to interact with what we're learning. Those are the kind of things that we need to make sure that we're still implementing and

our classroom and as much as we have curriculum to follow, unfortunately it doesn't provide that for us. It doesn't give us multiple pathways of learning. We have to craft that instruction and for our leaders that are listening, how do we get our teachers to do that who are afraid to take risk, who are afraid of getting it covered, all that the content and what it looks like is showing them how to make small shifts in that content that they're teaching

to reach other students and then everything gets covered and all the students get the all of learning.

Darrin Peppard (17:47.04)

Yeah, think what that I love, absolutely love what you just said. And it made me think about, you know, when I'm working with leadership teams, know, district teams, school level teams, I love to use my modified PLC questions, you know, instead of what do want kids to know and be able to do, I open with leaders, what do you want to be able to see in every single classroom every day? So.

Same, same kind of thing. And a lot of times, Meg, what I hear from school leaders, and this is everywhere across, you know, coast to coast, probably 70 % of the time, the number one thing that they tell me I want to see every day in every classroom is engagement. But of course, but my second question is, well, what does that look like? What does that mean? You're bridging that gap with

they're making connection to the content with their kids. So when I'm asking leaders, my second of my PLC questions of how you gonna know, like what does that look like? We're now talking more when we're connecting it to engagement. We're talking about making connections with content, with students, maybe with students' background knowledge. And it probably looks different in Louisiana than it does in New York City.

Megan Diede (19:12.759)

Yeah.

Darrin Peppard (19:12.891)

or California or Gillette, Wyoming, right? So let's, I'm just actually, I'm just gonna stop there and just have you take what I said and just run.

Megan Diede (19:25.771)

Yeah. Ooh.

That's my soapbox, Darren. What does it look like to see that your students are engaged? Well, it looks a variety of ways, and I hope that it does. I have a framework called the instructional awareness, and it basically is different pieces of what is your instructional awareness? As a teacher, you can use it. As a leader, you can use it. So when you walk into a classroom, you can quickly see where is the instructional awareness. Are they engaged? And what does that look like?

Engagement can look quiet, right? It can look peaceful. Engagement can look loud and a little bit crazy. It can look like the back of your classroom is the clearance section of Hobby Lobby and you're doing a hands-on approach, right? It can look organized. It depends on what your teacher's style is.

Darrin Peppard (20:15.914)

Yeah.

Megan Diede (20:22.185)

I think the real truth of that is how do know your students are connecting is if they have that connection to their teacher and to others in their classroom.

If you just step in and you take five minutes, you'll be able to see if students are connecting to what they're learning. If you stop and ask a student, what are you doing right now and why are you doing it? They'll be able to answer in their own authentic way, not just an I can statement. So what it looks like is just about anything and everything. Disconnection is behavior problems, students feeling unconnected with maybe it's

too advanced, right? Or maybe they're not challenged enough. Maybe they are not connecting because they don't understand. And so when it comes to behaviors of our students, we're asking ourselves, what is this behavior showing us about their connection to what they're learning?

Not necessarily, you know, we're having all these kids coming in from different backgrounds, different ways in the morning that they got there. And it's our job to bring all these different learning styles together. And the only way to truly do that is give them multiple pathways of learning through connection.

And so as leaders, you have to just kind of open your eyes and realize that it's not a one size fits all approach for our teachers. And our teachers need to be able to take risk in their instruction and just try out new things, do something aside from the exact curriculum script, but still know that we're getting to the end goal.

Darrin Peppard (22:03.517)

Absolutely, but I know a lot of the work that you do Meg is really you know focused on supporting leaders supporting their teachers supporting instructional coaches supporting their teachers so Let's let's maybe talk a little bit about that. So so speak directly to those leaders to those instructional coaches When in fact, you know what? I'm gonna treat it just like I would if I were

if I were working with a group of administrators, I just ask, what do you want to see every day in every classroom? And you said engagement. Well, I said it for you. then that next piece, know, hey, how do we know? My last two questions, again, straight from PLC, what do you do when they're doing it? What do you do when they're not doing it? So let's talk about that coaching that you provide for administrators and for instructional coaches to help teachers go from

struggling to make those connections to really thriving in those connections.

Megan Diede (23:04.885)

Yeah, absolutely. So how we go about this is we, I love this long-term consulting idea. It's not a one and done situation. So in order to get our teachers kind of in this mindset, we have to have a good relationship together with instructional coach and the leaders. We sit down and we look at what are your non-negotiables? What curriculum are you using? What tests do you have for your schools? What are your goals? What are your goals for your teachers?

and what are your goals for your students and how are we gonna get there?

Through that, then, I work with educators, the leaders to set those goals throughout the year. I come in and do a lot of consulting work with our teachers. We sit down with your curriculum and we're building those small instructional shifts. I really love to go into classrooms and show you what it could look like, right? We're team teaching. We're sitting down with that instructional coach and our teachers and planning out that teaching lesson, those units, and how we can really

those shifts in our instruction for our teachers. A big part of this too is those drop-in pieces. I drop in with leaders via Zoom and we're checking in. We're making sure that it's going in the right direction and what little shifts do we have to make in order for our teachers to really get to that next step also.

Darrin Peppard (24:27.945)

Yeah, absolutely. So my regular listeners, folks, those of you who listen on a regular basis, I just had one message me yesterday. know, yep, listen, every single Sunday I loved this particular episode. They were talking about the episode I did here not too long ago about being the bottleneck. And this particular individual actually made the connection from being the bottleneck as the leader to being the bottleneck to your students' learning. It was so awesome. Anyway, that's an aside, but.

Those of you who are listening, watching, who watch every single episode, listen to every single episode, you know the whole month of April was about developing your plan, about really preparing to make your plan successful. So this is something that I would tell you. I've known Meg for a long time. I really respect the work that Meg is doing. if those instructional shifts, if you're listening to this, and we'll make sure there's something in the show notes for you to connect with Meg.

reach out and just have a conversation with her because sometimes you just need to have that other person to kind of think things through and that kind of stuff. I guess at this point, our time has just flown by Meg, which does not surprise me. Every time you and I sit down and have a conversation, goes quick and apparently when we hit record, it's not any different. But we're at the point right now in the show where I'm gonna ask you the same question I ask everybody.

here on the show. So this is Leaning Into Leadership podcast. So, Meg Dady, how are you leaning into leadership right now?

Megan Diede (26:01.175)

I'm leading into leadership by leaning on other leaders to guide me in some of the work that they're doing as well. So kind of learning from my other leaders, but then myself leaning into leadership is I know that this work is so purposeful and so needed in our classrooms and I've seen it be such a positive impact that I'm leading our leaders in education to help our teachers, which then is the ultimate goal.

is getting to our students.

Darrin Peppard (26:34.055)

Absolutely outstanding stuff. again, Meg people are gonna want to get in touch with you Check out your work follow you on all the awesome stuff you do on socials. How how did they find you?

Megan Diede (26:44.395)

Yes, well you can find me at integratedk12.com. You can check out the website there and see some of the work that I do along with my co-presenter, Kara Rigsby. She helps me with the consulting piece and the training piece. You can also find me on Instagram, LinkedIn, under Megan Deedy.

Darrin Peppard (27:04.317)

Awesome. We'll make sure, so folks, that all that stuff is down in the show notes so you can get connected with Meg Deedy. Meg, this has just been so much fun. Thanks for joining me here on Leaning Into Leadership.

Megan Diede (27:15.733)

Yeah, thank you, Darren, for having me. It was great chatting.

Okay, folks, fantastic conversation with Meg. Make sure you get down to show notes, hit the links there, get connected with Meg, get connected with Integrated K-12.

the work that Meg and Kara are doing is just absolutely fantastic. So make sure you get connected with them. And now it's time for a pep talk. So in today's pep talk, let's just expand a little bit more of what Meg was talking about in terms of the importance and the power of connection. And I want to take this specifically from a leadership perspective. And I want to challenge you. Now we're at the very beginning of May, you've got...

a couple of weeks left, maybe you got a month, month and a half left, depending on where you are and when you're listening to this episode. And the challenge I want to give you is be intentional about connection. As a school leader, as a district leader, even as a leader in the corporate or nonprofit world, you can't lead from your office. And there are certain times of the year, there are certain seasons where it's very difficult to get out of the office, but you've got to be intentional.

You've got to make it a priority, put it on your calendar, and get yourself out where the action is. Have some simple conversations. Ask simple questions of individuals. Don't worry about giving feedback or trying to improve something. Just simply focus on making the connection. Ask a student, hey, tell me what makes a great day at school. Ask a teacher, hey,

How did you feel that lesson went? Or what were some things you felt really good about? even just simply, hey, did you try a good pizza place this week? I'm trying to find another one. Just make the effort, get out there, be intentional with those connections, because those are the things that truly make a difference. That human connection is super powerful. So that's my challenge for you today on the Pep Talk. As always, thanks for listening. Make sure you rate, review, and subscribe.

Darrin Peppard (04:46.974)

Certainly share this podcast with somebody else who might enjoy this content because folks, the more that you share, the more that you rate, review and subscribe, the more we drive the algorithm to get more and more people checking out, leaning into leadership. Get out there folks and have a road to awesome week.