Dec. 24, 2025

Lead with Purpose: Ignite Significance and Impact with Mosongo Moukwa

Lead with Purpose: Ignite Significance and Impact with Mosongo Moukwa

What does it mean to be a leader of significance living a legacy beyond titles? This week, we talk with Mosongo Moukwa, experienced leadership mentor, senior executive, and author of Be a Leader of Significance, about building trust, fostering...

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Apple Podcasts podcast player icon Spotify podcast player icon RSS Feed podcast player icon

What does it mean to be a leader of significance living a legacy beyond titles?

This week, we talk with Mosongo Moukwa, experienced leadership mentor, senior executive, and author of Be a Leader of Significance, about building trust, fostering psychological safety, and creating teams that thrive.

Mosongo shares these powerful insights:

  • How to lead up by standing for what you believe despite pressure
  • Creating shared vision and belonging that energizes teams
  • Building psychological safety through visibility, authentic connection, and open dialogue
  • Choosing team members by attitude, value alignment, and growth potential over mere skills
  • Leading teams with empathy and adaptability amidst multigenerational dynamics
  • Embracing mistakes as stepping stones for renewed leadership effectiveness
  • How true leadership impact is measured daily in moments of significance and human connection
Whether you lead a small group or an entire organization, this episode equips you to lead with heart, courage, and clarity, building a legacy that lasts.

Resources Mentioned:
  • Website: https://www.mosongomoukwa.com/
  • Linkedin: https://www.linkedin.com/in/mosongomoukwa/
  • Book: https://www.amazon.com/Be-Leader-Significance-Legacy-Impact/dp/154454216X
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This podcast is a proud member of the Teach Better

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podcast network, Better Today, Better Tomorrow, and the podcast to

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get you there. You can find out more at teefbetter

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dot com slash podcast.

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Try to be yourself and by looking inside yourself and

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drawing upon your own energy, you're actually going to deliver

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much much more than trying just to monkey other peoples around.

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Do you want to be a leader in a constantly

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changing world? Our emerging leaders look different, come from various

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backgrounds and from all different age groups. Leadership is changing

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and it's hard.

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To keep up. But the good news you.

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Can be a leader too. You can be an e

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merging leader. Welcome to the Limitless Leadership Lounge, a try

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generational conversation for emerging leaders. Come spend some time with

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us to discuss leadership from three angles. The coach Jim Johnson,

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the professor, Doctor Renumah Kareem, the host John Gering, a

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monthly guest, and you get in on the conversation on

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Facebook and Instagram, and be sure to follow us on

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Apple Podcasts, Spotify and Speaker. So come on in and

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make yourself comfortable.

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Leadership is something that we have the ability to get

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better at and that's what we're talking about here on

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the Limitless Leadership Lounge, and how powerful of a conversation

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we're going to have with our guests. Who joins us

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today from Chapel Hill, North Carolina. I'm John Gering, joined

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us always by coach Jim Johnson. Coach, you introduced us

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with the Massongo and we've gotten a chance to speak

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with him briefly, and we're excited to have him on.

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So let's dive in and get going on our leadership

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conversation today.

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Absolutely so, Massogo Moqua and I got a chance to

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talk and I read his beautiful book, which I'll share

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a little bit more in a second. But Massogle has

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held various leadership positions and now he impacts people by

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helping them with their leadership and be able to inspire

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them to become better leaders. His measure is to elevate

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leadership capability by equipping individuals with high impact leadership skills.

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These skills empowered them to engage, empower, and mobilize employees,

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fostering an extraordinary difference. He also assists business in scaling

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sustainably by nurturing their true wealth the collective passion of

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their people. That's music to my ears because I know

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how important people is in leadership. He has also written

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a wonderful book called Be a Leader of Significance for

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our YouTube audience. That's what looks Like, which I had

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the opportunity to read and recommend to my network. It

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was well done. So, without further ado, Masango, welcome to

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the Limitless Leadership Lounge.

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Yeah, thank you so much.

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I'm happy to have the conversation and I'm grateful for

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the opportunity.

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Let's start because in reading your book, you had a

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lot of high level leadership positions, but you were most

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of the time not the CEO. And a lot of

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our leaders that were listening to show are people that

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are in the traditional we call middle management. They have

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people that they're under their supervision, but they're also working

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with people that would be above them and the organization.

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So my question is is, because I think often when

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someone gets promoted in leadership, I'm the leader, but how

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do you work with the leaders what I call leading up?

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How do you work with the leader that are above

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you now that you're in a leadership position.

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Yeah, this is a great question, coach.

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Actually, let me just tell you a bit of my

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story how I get to be in the leadership role.

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So I just finished my PG actually at that time,

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and I've taken a job with a specialty chemical firm

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in Ohio. I was excited to be part of the

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research group and I was just looking forward to settling

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into career as a rich societist. And long after I started,

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the vice president of R and D called me for

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one on one meeting and then after a few jokes

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and so on, I sat forward in his chair and

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it said one more songo. What I would like to

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do is we're going to make you a manager. And

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then I was a bit taken aback because I was

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hired as a principal societist at that time. And then

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I was just wondering, what the hell is going on here?

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I just started here. So I I told him, I said, sir,

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I've never managed anybody, and I'm not too sure how

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this will work out. And if it doesn't work out,

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please just put me back in the lab. Don't worry.

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Everything will go well. I was spoken with the other manager.

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They think you'll be a good manager. So that's really

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how I started. So I was a bit but nevertheless,

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suddenly I was a brand new manager with no management

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experience and have to figure things out. When I completed

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my research work back then at Northwestern University, I expected

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to design products, develop strong IP and whatnot. And in

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those days, the company did not have any mentorship program

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of any type like we have today and so on,

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so I have to figure out things on my own.

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A few people help me fill in various gaps, but

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I was more or less on my own. So one

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year led to two to three, and eventually that led

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to a very interesting career which I including senior leadership

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leadership role in various companies. But throughout everything, I've never

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regretted being in a leadership role.

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What it crystallizes.

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For me is that, hopefully for your listeners out there

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is this thought that my growth and comfort would never coexist.

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I think if one closes his eyes and we think

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about what when we learn the most in our life,

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it's probably at times when you were in risky or

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uncertain situation. So that crystallization made it easier for me

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to take on risky changes in different jobs, and some

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of them were actually very difficult, but really a coach.

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The truth of my own career is that I denote

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a vision becoming a leader, but find myself in a

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leadership position in my earliest professional days. So that's really

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what my story is.

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Uh.

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Yeah, your story is similar to to so many of

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our audience members who we've heard from, who say I

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was a great individual contributor, and now all of a sudden,

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I'm a leader because I was the best, say, salesperson,

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now I'm the sales manager. It seems logical, but it's

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a totally different skill set. What were some of the

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early challenges for you going in as someone who took

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on this new role that seemed like a logical step

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for you, but still presented a whole new set of

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different challenges.

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Yes, absolutely, because right away I faced a choice, uh,

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to do what other leaders around me were doing, or

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to do what I felt was best for the people

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I was leading and for your organization as all. So

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I chose the latter and I never looked back. So

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along the way, I discovered a number of behaviors and

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action that the leader must take to operate at personal best.

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And so that's really what it was.

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There. For example, I.

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Remember in the early days the vice president of R

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and D, he gave us a project. So he has

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signed me a very important project for the company. But

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in the organization, the way he was running the organization

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is like it was ultimately the one who will decide

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not to need a project, but will decide who from

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which group we should be.

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Working on the project.

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So then he said, They asked me, he said, and go,

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who do you have in mind for this project? So

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I told him, I said, what I'm thinking of a

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fellow Frank. And then and then he said, no, actually,

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what I would like is for you to put Mike.

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I'm just giving some names, yet I would like for

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you to put Mike. And I knew this fellow Frank,

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actually he had the skills really to run the had

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a project and we can make real impact. And also

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he had come earlier to me, and they expressed the

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idea that that perhaps if he's given the opportunity, that

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really bit tremendous. And then I remember at that time

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when I answered the VP, I could look around the

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room all those the other guys they had their face

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down and because and the VP was red and of

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anger or frustration or disappointment, and I was actually thinking, seriously,

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this guy is going to fire me. Actually, so at

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the end. At the end of that he called me

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back in his office. He asked me if I would

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reconsider my decision. So I told him, I said, with

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all your respect, I really think that this fellow is

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really the best one to do. So his answer, if

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I recall, was something like suit yourself. But then now

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working with this fellow, he had the skills and with

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my support and so on, actually with the liver beyond

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the expectations in that particular project, because the fellow knew

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the dynamics that was going on in the department. So

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we locked arm in arm and with deliver so much

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so that later on this particular fellow became one of

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the highest performing individual in our department, and some of

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the key projects now went to him, actually because we

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knew he was a very talented individual, very focused, and

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he could deliver, was good getting along with people and

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so on. So what I'm telling that story because we'll

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find ourselves in a situation where you're in an organization

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and you're trying to emulate other people's behaver there somebody

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who all of a sudden, people are wearing the same jackets,

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and you also feel compelled that you should wear the

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same jacket as the boss, and so on. The boss

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is living in some neighborhood, you feel like you should

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also buy a house in that neighborhood to be close

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to the boss, so to speak. So what I'm saying

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is that try to be yourself, and by looking inside

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yourself and drawing upon your own you're actually going to

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deliver much much more than trying just to monkey other

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peoples around you.

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It's a great thing you stood for what you believed in,

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because you know that's part of going to someone above

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you and saying no, this is the right person and

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sticking to your guns. I'm going to divert very quickly.

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But my assistant coach came to me with j Mac

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Jason mcgillwaan, and said, he's not a very good player,

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but he has the right ingredients what we look for

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and someone we want to keep in our program even

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as a manager, because he had great passion for the

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game of basketball, and he was a great we over me.

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He cared about the team so much and ended up

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being a great decision for our whole program. And then

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he ended up staying in our program after that as

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a volunteer assistant. So I admire your sticking to your

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guns and that working out really well, because it doesn't

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always work out well, that's for sure. I'm curious as

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you took over various leadership positions. I know something you

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talk about is the vision or the mission. How do

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you get people on your team to really around that mission?

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Now, this is a great question. What I've learned a

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coach is that is that in the organization, what people

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are looking for, they're looking for a sense of belonging.

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I had this this this chemist we used to work

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for me, and then going by the coffee machine, I

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asked him, I said, what is it about this place

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that you like here? I thought this individual was going

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to tell me, oh, you're giving us a great project,

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and we know we're developing good products for the company

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and so on. He told me, no, I love this

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place because I can play ping pong during lunch.

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Oh okay.

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And then they say, yeah, because I can talk to

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the other fellow. We get a chance to talk with

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each other taking a break. And so when I said,

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that's really something that I look forward to when I

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come in here in the morning, and it was a

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very bright fellow. And but that's what it told me.

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So that sense of affiliation, so for this individual was

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extremely important. The other one I would say is a

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also the idea of psychological safety, so people have to

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feel that. I had this young lady, she was in

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marketing before, and then they transfer her into my group.

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What she was telling me is that in the beginning,

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whoever was her boss speak highly over her. She would

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be invited in meetings and so on, and then over

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time so she was invited less and less and less

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and so on, and then eventually they moved her to

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my organization. So I told her, I say, why did

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you not just go and say, hey, why are you

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not inviting me in any meetings anymore? Ther answer was that, well,

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I did not feel safe even to ask that question. Wow,

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So psychological safety is extremely important. The third one I

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would say is that people have to feel value. To

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feel value. The reason I'm saying that because it's not

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something extraordinary that you need to do. There was this

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gentleman as I was working in the corridor. I told him,

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I said, hey, listen, I have not had a chance

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to talk to you for a long time, but be

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assured that I've not forgotten you, and I did not

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make any big deal of that. Now, a year later,

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this individual told me said that that comment actually energized him.

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It made this day, and I did not realize it

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at the time. So people need to feel to feel that,

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to feel value, because obviously it's a fact of life

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and the leadership. I believe that when people are noticed,

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they know that somebody cares. And when they know that

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somebody cares, then they feel value. And when they feel value,

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they believe that they indeed part of something much bigger

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than themselves. So those are the things that I would

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say that you, as a leader of a team, whether

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it's a smaller team or bigger team, that you need

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to create that create that safe place for the people.

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You have to create a space so that people they

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can feel that they have some kind of affiliation. They

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may have different affiliations, but they should feel that there

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is something there and then they have to feel that

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they're value so because then you can really trying them

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to get them around the major project, so to speak.

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Yeah, I can ask you one more, just a Delvin,

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because we hear this a lot and I fully agree

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with you, But go a little bit deeper. How do

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you build psychological safety for your team members, because it's

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something I think there's been study and box about it,

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but do a little bit deeper. Give us some examples

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of how you build the psychological safety.

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Yeah, first of all, you have to you have to

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be visible. I've gone into some companies where you see

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all the managers they have their door closed, meaning that

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I don't want to I don't want to interact with anybody.

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You go through the corridor, all the doors that closed.

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So you need to be visible and you need to

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be present. We have lots of opportunities for us to

279
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engage people coffee shop or what have you, so for that.

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So this really it's a good opportunity for you, first

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of all, to get to know the people, not just

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about the project, but to get to know them as individuals.

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You can inquire about about what Rather than asking, hey,

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how is the project going, you could inquire and say

285
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what is it there that was the most exciting for

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you this week? And then people will open up and

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then you say, oh, you'll remember you said you spoke

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to me about your son last week. It was in

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the hospital. How is he doing now? How is your

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mother doing now? And that's how you begin to create

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little but little, those those connections which are very important

292
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that because then there's something that then you begin to

293
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create actually a bit of trust, right because if you

294
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are invisible, why should people trust somebody was invisible? So

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we have those everyday junctions that allows us to talk

296
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to people and shape those junctions as moments really that matter, right,

297
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because you can set the tonal conversation, So that's something there,

298
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so be visible and because people will trust somebody that

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they see. And also you need to authentically connect with

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others because when they see the real you, then you

301
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begin now to create those bonds. And finally you have

302
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to ask. You have to ask powerful questions. I'd have

303
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to send the individual in somewhat of reflective mode that that.

304
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Would say yeah.

305
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And then so many leaders I think they're so reactive

306
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in the way that, oh, I have to build a

307
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team culture. All let me organize a picnic or a

308
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Christmas party, and let's just do it to check the

309
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box so that we can say that we have a

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good team culture. And all the team culture photos on

311
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websites seem to just be the team bonding with Santa

312
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hats on, and it's like there's so much more to

313
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team culture than this. Team culture is not an isolated event.

314
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Team culture is a day in and day out practice.

315
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But you got to be proactive with that. You can't

316
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just be reactive. Tell us a couple of steps that

317
00:16:59.360 --> 00:17:03.399
you did to be proactively build a strong team culture

318
00:17:03.759 --> 00:17:06.759
that went beyond just one day of the year, but

319
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that your team experienced every day.

320
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Yes, I would say, as you're engaging those people there

321
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and so on, then you have to you have to

322
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you you learn from people's stories. There is one exercise

323
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that I did a few years ago where I was

324
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asking individuals to interview each other rather than just in

325
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introducing oneself, Oh I'm so, and I'm blah blah blah.

326
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I said, no, let me actually pay people, and let's

327
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have a brief conversational interview with one another. And then

328
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when you come back, then you can share what you've

329
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learned about the other person. And then to frame that,

330
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I said, ask the individual questions about times when the

331
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other person felt most alive at work. So then people

332
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came back, and then one story was one older gentleman.

333
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He had actually he developed the process that.

334
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The company was using chemical process, but nobody knew that

335
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this individual actually created that process, which he did many

336
00:18:09.119 --> 00:18:15.000
years earlier in his younger days. But when this fellow

337
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was introducing this older gentleman, what he told us is

338
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that is that when this individual was sharing his story,

339
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that he could really see that there was a great

340
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deal of energy that was really that this individual was

341
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really alive, so to speak. It took him maybe ten

342
00:18:32.440 --> 00:18:35.960
fifteen years early and so on. And then what we

343
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also learned is that is that when he started this project,

344
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it did it because he felt that at the plant

345
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people trusted him, and because of that that really gave

346
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him the impulse to even do more. So investing time

347
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in solving problem that was a big energizer for you.

348
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So as a leader, when you pick up the energy

349
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of others, you create now new ways to engage and

350
00:19:01.440 --> 00:19:04.759
give people new chances and to do their best. So

351
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that's at the individual level, but you can also do

352
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it at your organization level, where you can now ask

353
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the question, what is really bring this organization alive? Because

354
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there are some activities when you want to do in

355
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the organization people excited and there are other activities where

356
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you don't see them excited. So you want to encover

357
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what those activities that really bring the organization alive and

358
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then tap into that. But you also want to know

359
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what are those activities that also the energizing the organization

360
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that you may perhaps trying to reframe it differently and

361
00:19:41.559 --> 00:19:43.839
so on. So that's how really you begin now to

362
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begin to pull people together and then knowing that now

363
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you can then define what the organization should look like

364
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because that will now become something that the people actually

365
00:19:55.480 --> 00:19:58.279
living it, so to speak. So that's how then you

366
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can review your processes system to see in fact, if

367
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this is something that actually that is energizing the people

368
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here or not. So that's how That's how I approached it,

369
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and that's what I would encourage many of the managers

370
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to do with their own team. However, whether it's five people,

371
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ten people, and so on.

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Masago, how about as far as as a leader, can

373
00:20:21.119 --> 00:20:24.119
you give us two or three what you believe are

374
00:20:24.319 --> 00:20:30.200
very important characteristics of people that you want on your team? Okay,

375
00:20:30.240 --> 00:20:33.480
what's most important to you? Because I think in having

376
00:20:33.519 --> 00:20:37.759
clarity in picking the right team members, you really got

377
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to have what's most important to you. So what are

378
00:20:41.240 --> 00:20:42.519
those characteristics for you?

379
00:20:43.039 --> 00:20:46.000
Yeah, look, look for a number one. Like when I'm

380
00:20:46.000 --> 00:20:48.720
interviewing people. They have credential, they have gone to school

381
00:20:48.720 --> 00:20:51.960
and so on. So their skill set that one, it's

382
00:20:51.960 --> 00:20:54.160
almost like a given and they have done that and

383
00:20:54.200 --> 00:20:57.720
so on. But then I'm looking for their attitude. I'm

384
00:20:57.759 --> 00:20:59.960
looking at it. Do they have the ability to learn?

385
00:21:00.440 --> 00:21:04.440
Do they have the ability to work with others? So

386
00:21:04.440 --> 00:21:07.039
that's really a number one there. So that's what I'm

387
00:21:07.079 --> 00:21:09.839
looking for. And then I'm looking for if this is

388
00:21:09.880 --> 00:21:13.160
a new comedy coming into the group, they can I

389
00:21:13.200 --> 00:21:16.240
have a sense of their own value whether in fact,

390
00:21:16.480 --> 00:21:19.160
this is something here that that aligned very well with

391
00:21:19.319 --> 00:21:21.680
what we are trying to achieve. But that's what I

392
00:21:21.759 --> 00:21:24.440
really look at beyond just the skill sets.

393
00:21:24.680 --> 00:21:29.079
Yeah, those are sometimes difficult to evaluate because you think

394
00:21:29.119 --> 00:21:32.839
about coming into an interview. Of course, many people are

395
00:21:32.839 --> 00:21:35.759
going to put on their best self, and I've heard

396
00:21:35.799 --> 00:21:39.960
of instances sometimes where leaders misjudge somebody based on what

397
00:21:40.079 --> 00:21:43.039
might be a great interview, but that doesn't translate into

398
00:21:43.400 --> 00:21:46.319
their day to day work. Are there any tips or

399
00:21:46.359 --> 00:21:49.440
tricks that you have for leaders to see through the

400
00:21:49.480 --> 00:21:52.440
facade a little bit in the interview process and be

401
00:21:52.519 --> 00:21:55.440
able to tell what might be the right fit for

402
00:21:55.480 --> 00:21:56.359
their team.

403
00:21:56.519 --> 00:21:59.119
No, this is a great question, John, because I myself.

404
00:21:59.359 --> 00:22:05.119
So some people say, oh, man, that was really I

405
00:22:05.200 --> 00:22:07.839
made here because as you don't know at that time,

406
00:22:08.000 --> 00:22:10.359
and then you could not pick up some signals and

407
00:22:10.400 --> 00:22:13.920
so on and and and I would say, if you

408
00:22:13.960 --> 00:22:18.319
want to do it really, perhaps by asking good questions.

409
00:22:18.880 --> 00:22:21.440
I always thought that when you're asking a good question,

410
00:22:21.559 --> 00:22:26.200
you're actually adopting a posture of humility. You are you

411
00:22:26.240 --> 00:22:29.440
are confessing that I don't know and I want to learn.

412
00:22:29.839 --> 00:22:31.039
So that's a way to start.

413
00:22:32.000 --> 00:22:35.359
Now, you can you give us an illustration of a

414
00:22:35.519 --> 00:22:38.279
question you often using in an.

415
00:22:38.079 --> 00:22:43.559
Interview, Yes, yes, yes, So for example, close questions, those

416
00:22:43.599 --> 00:22:46.359
are the band ones, huh, because if you just say

417
00:22:46.519 --> 00:22:47.599
what school did you go to?

418
00:22:48.119 --> 00:22:49.200
I went to this school.

419
00:22:49.759 --> 00:22:52.000
But but if you ask you said that, can you

420
00:22:52.039 --> 00:22:55.519
give me a sense of your school, what experience really

421
00:22:55.759 --> 00:22:56.640
impacted you?

422
00:22:56.759 --> 00:22:57.440
And why?

423
00:22:58.079 --> 00:23:00.720
Then now the person can can now can now speak,

424
00:23:01.119 --> 00:23:04.000
and then you can see now through that experience, what

425
00:23:04.119 --> 00:23:07.319
kind of value perhaps this person may have, may have

426
00:23:08.279 --> 00:23:10.480
express and so on. So those are the types of

427
00:23:10.599 --> 00:23:15.240
questions there, And you can also ask obviously many of

428
00:23:15.279 --> 00:23:18.839
those open handed questions. For example, you can begin a

429
00:23:18.880 --> 00:23:22.200
phrase which I often do, how did you go about

430
00:23:22.359 --> 00:23:26.880
doing this? Yeah, what was it like? Tell me about

431
00:23:26.920 --> 00:23:30.119
such and such in what ways did you do such

432
00:23:30.160 --> 00:23:32.519
and such? They tell me about the last time you

433
00:23:32.599 --> 00:23:36.400
went to work, to work after it, for example, or whatever.

434
00:23:36.599 --> 00:23:39.480
So then people can now describe and then you can

435
00:23:39.839 --> 00:23:42.880
really try to gauge who are these people? You know?

436
00:23:43.079 --> 00:23:46.240
And then during the interview many of my colleagues that

437
00:23:46.240 --> 00:23:49.279
they're always wondering why I'm not asking all the questions

438
00:23:49.319 --> 00:23:52.000
related to their skills. It's because the skills I can

439
00:23:52.039 --> 00:23:54.599
ask one or two. I know they can do those things,

440
00:23:54.599 --> 00:23:57.720
they have a patent, or they have been leading a

441
00:23:57.759 --> 00:24:00.440
great program. But I'm trying to understand how did they

442
00:24:00.440 --> 00:24:03.680
go about doing that? Did they seek help? What kind

443
00:24:03.720 --> 00:24:06.640
of one of the fast challenges? How did they how

444
00:24:06.720 --> 00:24:09.160
did they how did they deal with that? So these

445
00:24:09.200 --> 00:24:11.880
are the types of questions that that I would ask coach.

446
00:24:12.720 --> 00:24:15.519
Now, what about flipping it to the other side from

447
00:24:15.519 --> 00:24:18.839
the leader to the team member who's looking to join

448
00:24:19.200 --> 00:24:21.799
a team that's the right fit for them without just

449
00:24:22.319 --> 00:24:27.039
mass blasting one hundred different teams resumes and cover letters,

450
00:24:27.240 --> 00:24:30.279
what is the best way to actually find that right

451
00:24:30.319 --> 00:24:32.960
team that they know that they're going to be a

452
00:24:32.960 --> 00:24:34.960
good fit for and is going to be a good

453
00:24:35.000 --> 00:24:36.079
fit for them in return.

454
00:24:36.759 --> 00:24:39.559
Yeah, there are similar types of questions. Uh, and and

455
00:24:39.759 --> 00:24:42.759
for example, you can ask you said that those open questions,

456
00:24:42.880 --> 00:24:45.440
how do you go about doing work here? You can

457
00:24:45.519 --> 00:24:49.240
ask who are the heroes of this organization? You can

458
00:24:49.279 --> 00:24:52.720
ask the interviewer, can you tell me why did you

459
00:24:52.920 --> 00:24:55.640
what made you join this company? And then they will

460
00:24:55.720 --> 00:24:58.359
talk and so on. Those are types of ended questions.

461
00:24:58.359 --> 00:25:01.359
Then you begin not to know from the interviewer or

462
00:25:01.400 --> 00:25:04.279
the interviewers. Then you can see where there is any

463
00:25:04.279 --> 00:25:07.279
types of pattern there and so on. And most of all,

464
00:25:07.319 --> 00:25:10.440
when you walk into a building, you can sense the

465
00:25:10.559 --> 00:25:14.480
level of energy. And then I know that because I

466
00:25:14.519 --> 00:25:17.480
felt too many times you go to some organizations you

467
00:25:17.559 --> 00:25:21.000
just feel it's cold there, there's no warm there. And

468
00:25:21.039 --> 00:25:22.680
then is this the place that you want to be?

469
00:25:22.960 --> 00:25:26.240
Other places you go you can see energy. People there

470
00:25:26.279 --> 00:25:29.799
talking with each other. Other place you go, people in

471
00:25:29.839 --> 00:25:33.519
their cube, nobody is talking to anybody. They all seem

472
00:25:33.599 --> 00:25:36.039
to be busy, and so on. You go get a

473
00:25:36.039 --> 00:25:39.440
cup of coffee there in the cafeteria, there's nobody there.

474
00:25:39.759 --> 00:25:41.920
So all of those are clues for you because that

475
00:25:42.960 --> 00:25:45.400
tells you what the culture of the place is. Are

476
00:25:45.480 --> 00:25:48.319
people in that place they interact with So is this

477
00:25:48.400 --> 00:25:50.200
a place that you want to go in or not?

478
00:25:50.839 --> 00:25:51.240
Good boy?

479
00:25:52.160 --> 00:25:54.200
So I go, how about can you tell us a story?

480
00:25:54.240 --> 00:25:57.400
Because you have a number of leadership positions when you

481
00:25:57.440 --> 00:26:02.240
were hired to create some kind of change for the company,

482
00:26:02.680 --> 00:26:04.079
what was the process for you?

483
00:26:04.759 --> 00:26:08.039
The process the processes are defined before. First of all

484
00:26:08.279 --> 00:26:10.960
is for me to get to know the people. So

485
00:26:11.079 --> 00:26:13.920
if this is an existing group, are to come there

486
00:26:13.960 --> 00:26:16.799
trying to get to know the people to see what

487
00:26:16.920 --> 00:26:20.400
is really energizing them, what is energizing the organization and

488
00:26:20.440 --> 00:26:23.160
so on and then and then now you begin to

489
00:26:23.400 --> 00:26:25.440
as you begin to work with them, then you begin

490
00:26:25.640 --> 00:26:28.880
to have a good sense of what is really what

491
00:26:28.960 --> 00:26:31.920
those people are really looking for or what they think

492
00:26:32.079 --> 00:26:35.799
is missing there? Could that become then the basis as

493
00:26:35.839 --> 00:26:38.319
you are thinking about the vision that you want to

494
00:26:38.359 --> 00:26:41.160
put that the vision has to be a shared vision

495
00:26:41.400 --> 00:26:44.880
because it has to be to include elements of the

496
00:26:44.920 --> 00:26:48.119
hopes and aspiration of the people. Because then it becomes

497
00:26:48.839 --> 00:26:51.480
a shared vision. Because once you have that and then

498
00:26:51.519 --> 00:26:55.519
you articulated. Now, then then the organisations they feel like

499
00:26:56.319 --> 00:26:59.640
this is also my vision. Once you reach that stage,

500
00:27:00.160 --> 00:27:04.200
then you're able to execute, execute, and have all this

501
00:27:04.559 --> 00:27:07.319
all the masses now rally around you and push it

502
00:27:07.359 --> 00:27:10.880
forward because now they're identifying themselves into that vision.

503
00:27:11.880 --> 00:27:12.279
Yeah.

504
00:27:12.400 --> 00:27:15.640
I think one of the biggest lies about leadership and

505
00:27:15.759 --> 00:27:20.039
successful leaders like yourself and even leaders who have written

506
00:27:20.079 --> 00:27:23.359
books about leadership, is that you didn't make any mistakes.

507
00:27:23.960 --> 00:27:27.319
But I'm sitting here guessing, actually just assuming Masongo, that

508
00:27:27.359 --> 00:27:29.680
you've made a mistake or two in your past. Tell

509
00:27:29.720 --> 00:27:32.599
us a little bit about maybe one mistake that you've

510
00:27:32.640 --> 00:27:36.920
made and what you've learned from the leadership mistakes that

511
00:27:36.960 --> 00:27:37.440
you've made.

512
00:27:37.960 --> 00:27:42.559
Yeah, one mistake that could could remember here was a

513
00:27:42.759 --> 00:27:48.319
higher one manager and for the manager to lead a group,

514
00:27:48.920 --> 00:27:52.039
but the manager, the manager, it turned out that you

515
00:27:52.119 --> 00:27:55.960
wanted really to manage the group more as a micro manager,

516
00:27:56.319 --> 00:27:59.599
which I felt that was just preventing the development of

517
00:27:59.640 --> 00:28:02.559
the people because my style of management is that you

518
00:28:02.559 --> 00:28:06.160
have to develop others and leadership is not a solo adventure.

519
00:28:06.319 --> 00:28:10.200
You have to multiply those those those nucleus of leadership

520
00:28:10.240 --> 00:28:13.279
as well. What happens in that case, then you call

521
00:28:13.319 --> 00:28:17.319
the individual and you give feedback. Now, when you give feedback.

522
00:28:17.720 --> 00:28:21.319
You're not attacking the individual, but you're giving feedback by

523
00:28:21.359 --> 00:28:27.200
looking at the behavior. So you give specific examples and whatnot,

524
00:28:27.279 --> 00:28:31.759
and then you explain then how those how those specific

525
00:28:31.799 --> 00:28:36.480
behavior is affecting the team and how it is affecting

526
00:28:36.519 --> 00:28:40.559
the organization. And in this particular case, the manager just

527
00:28:40.640 --> 00:28:43.640
had a hard time trying to shift to shift the gear,

528
00:28:44.240 --> 00:28:47.880
and then we decided to go separate ways. But so

529
00:28:48.039 --> 00:28:51.599
those mistakes. We all make mistakes, but there is there

530
00:28:51.680 --> 00:28:54.039
is certainly one thing that one CEO told me many

531
00:28:54.079 --> 00:28:57.359
years ago. It said, when you're signing people in projects,

532
00:28:57.400 --> 00:28:59.799
for example, you can also make a mistake. You give

533
00:28:59.839 --> 00:29:02.200
a fellow project then it turned out that I did

534
00:29:02.240 --> 00:29:05.599
not have really the energy to carry it through or whatnot.

535
00:29:05.880 --> 00:29:08.319
Then you can move the fellow and then, hey, things

536
00:29:08.319 --> 00:29:10.359
are not working out. I'm going to put you in

537
00:29:10.400 --> 00:29:14.440
another project. But if you're going now to fire somebody,

538
00:29:15.039 --> 00:29:18.079
then the CEO told me, and I think he was right,

539
00:29:18.279 --> 00:29:20.720
he said, you have to think twice, because once you

540
00:29:20.799 --> 00:29:24.480
make that decision, you cannot go back. But as manager,

541
00:29:24.559 --> 00:29:27.799
we are hired to make decisions. So you put John

542
00:29:28.000 --> 00:29:30.440
working on this project. Yeah, things are not working out,

543
00:29:30.799 --> 00:29:33.319
and usually we know it. We have a gut feeling

544
00:29:33.359 --> 00:29:35.799
that no, things are just not working out. Yeah, with

545
00:29:35.839 --> 00:29:39.160
this fellow, we know it, but sometimes we are reluctant

546
00:29:39.200 --> 00:29:41.680
to bring it to the surface. So I've learned over

547
00:29:41.680 --> 00:29:43.599
the years that hey, if things are not working out,

548
00:29:44.119 --> 00:29:47.680
to raise it immediately. If there is no change, of course, Hey, Paul,

549
00:29:48.039 --> 00:29:49.880
I know you're a great fellow, but things are not

550
00:29:49.960 --> 00:29:52.559
working out in this project. This is a reason ABC

551
00:29:53.160 --> 00:29:56.119
and have made a decision to move you here. But

552
00:29:56.279 --> 00:29:58.720
obviously for some of the people I spent some time

553
00:29:58.799 --> 00:30:01.519
trying to help them develt while they are going through

554
00:30:01.559 --> 00:30:04.200
their struggle, or if I still think that they have

555
00:30:04.240 --> 00:30:07.119
the potential, I would help them along the ways so

556
00:30:07.200 --> 00:30:10.200
that they can achieve. There are the people depending upon

557
00:30:10.240 --> 00:30:12.039
the context that we just said, No, maybe I should

558
00:30:12.079 --> 00:30:15.599
just move them now because we already way beyond the project.

559
00:30:16.119 --> 00:30:17.640
I should put really somebody else.

560
00:30:18.279 --> 00:30:19.200
Yeah, great points.

561
00:30:19.640 --> 00:30:22.640
Ago. I read your book be Leader of Significance, and

562
00:30:22.720 --> 00:30:24.880
I really enjoyed it. I think you had some wonderful

563
00:30:25.000 --> 00:30:31.160
stories in it going through Yes, so curious is what

564
00:30:31.359 --> 00:30:33.680
was the genesis, why did you decide to write a

565
00:30:33.759 --> 00:30:37.039
book and what do you really want people to read

566
00:30:37.440 --> 00:30:40.400
the game from reading the book. What message are you trying.

567
00:30:40.200 --> 00:30:40.839
To share with them?

568
00:30:41.400 --> 00:30:45.240
Yes, the book, Yes, yes, the book be a leader

569
00:30:45.400 --> 00:30:49.160
of significance coach. I was inspired to write that book

570
00:30:49.440 --> 00:30:52.920
because I really believe that the core of what people

571
00:30:52.960 --> 00:30:58.720
expect from organization has not really changed even today certain times,

572
00:30:58.920 --> 00:31:02.640
because at the heart of every organization is the human experience,

573
00:31:03.119 --> 00:31:07.880
our need to connect, to belong and grow. So I've

574
00:31:08.000 --> 00:31:11.400
seen the first hand that one leader really taping those

575
00:31:11.599 --> 00:31:15.759
basic human human desire that can help others achieve extraordin

576
00:31:15.799 --> 00:31:19.759
the readings and create a meaningful, meaningful impact. In fact,

577
00:31:19.839 --> 00:31:23.400
Dave David brook Brooks in his book The Social Animal,

578
00:31:23.559 --> 00:31:28.319
reminded us of that that you need for human connection. Now,

579
00:31:28.400 --> 00:31:31.319
I spent my career leading teams and working with various

580
00:31:31.400 --> 00:31:35.559
organizations across industry and across the continent. What I've learned

581
00:31:35.599 --> 00:31:38.720
is that the measure of leadership is not in the numbers.

582
00:31:39.160 --> 00:31:44.160
It's about those daily actions that really create ignite potential

583
00:31:44.160 --> 00:31:48.799
in others that could inspire others to overcome challenges. So

584
00:31:48.920 --> 00:31:51.599
you have to develop them sometimes and then help them

585
00:31:51.640 --> 00:31:55.440
achieve more than they thought possible. So the book, in

586
00:31:55.480 --> 00:31:58.319
the book, I wanted to share my own journey, some

587
00:31:58.519 --> 00:32:02.240
insight a learn or along my own leadership journey, and

588
00:32:02.279 --> 00:32:06.440
then offer some actionable practices that show our leader can

589
00:32:06.480 --> 00:32:10.680
actually create those moments of significance for those they are leading.

590
00:32:11.160 --> 00:32:12.400
So that's how I wrote the book.

591
00:32:13.319 --> 00:32:17.319
And I know your message too, is one of legacy.

592
00:32:17.480 --> 00:32:21.839
I mean, there's significance to leadership. It's not there's something

593
00:32:21.960 --> 00:32:25.319
deeper here beyond just results and numbers. Tell us a

594
00:32:25.359 --> 00:32:29.160
little bit about the legacy. Ultimately that you encourage leaders

595
00:32:29.200 --> 00:32:32.880
to strive to leave behind and the personal legacy you

596
00:32:32.960 --> 00:32:33.920
want to leave behind.

597
00:32:34.119 --> 00:32:36.640
I think leaders they have to leave many of the

598
00:32:36.839 --> 00:32:40.480
senior managers that have come across over the years, is

599
00:32:40.519 --> 00:32:44.079
that when they leave, actually we don't always remember them.

600
00:32:44.279 --> 00:32:47.160
If you ask what happened to to mister Swan's, people

601
00:32:47.240 --> 00:32:50.960
remember vaguely it was a senior VP there, but nobody

602
00:32:51.000 --> 00:32:54.440
really actually know what exactly did. But yet he was

603
00:32:54.480 --> 00:32:58.640
there being promoted promoted along the way many times. So

604
00:32:58.720 --> 00:33:02.119
people don't really remember, but they will remember you if

605
00:33:02.160 --> 00:33:06.519
actually you touch their heart. They will remember you if

606
00:33:06.880 --> 00:33:09.799
you have created a situation that they felt that was

607
00:33:09.880 --> 00:33:14.400
really was really significant significant to them. So when I

608
00:33:14.480 --> 00:33:18.319
say significance, is that what makes our life worth living

609
00:33:18.359 --> 00:33:21.839
is actually that feeling. Because when you look at your

610
00:33:21.880 --> 00:33:26.240
own treasure memory, the times where you share something and

611
00:33:26.279 --> 00:33:30.039
that made you feel special and value, and the amount

612
00:33:30.119 --> 00:33:33.720
of significance you feel and how you feel that need

613
00:33:33.960 --> 00:33:36.599
as a major effect on how you view your work

614
00:33:36.799 --> 00:33:40.680
and over all your life, your life purpose. So that

615
00:33:40.680 --> 00:33:45.519
that feeling significance for that matter, feeling for that matter,

616
00:33:46.039 --> 00:33:49.839
that feeling is important because of the emotional well being

617
00:33:49.920 --> 00:33:54.160
and happiness. It increases your self worth and your motivation

618
00:33:54.599 --> 00:33:57.599
because when you feel good about yourself and you want

619
00:33:57.640 --> 00:33:59.880
a people to feel the same way, and that comes

620
00:34:00.079 --> 00:34:03.599
true in your lives, in your life's purpose. So I

621
00:34:03.640 --> 00:34:07.440
feel that the need of significant is sometimes forgotten. It's

622
00:34:07.480 --> 00:34:11.159
easy to overlook our own ego when bills need to

623
00:34:11.199 --> 00:34:14.239
be paid and family needs to be careful. But maintaining

624
00:34:14.280 --> 00:34:17.400
that sense of significant, I think is important for us.

625
00:34:18.079 --> 00:34:21.280
But obviously it depends upon the people around you, because

626
00:34:21.360 --> 00:34:24.920
for that fulfillment is really a group effort. Not only

627
00:34:25.079 --> 00:34:28.280
do you need other people to help you feel valued,

628
00:34:28.960 --> 00:34:32.119
but you also help the people around you feel valued.

629
00:34:31.760 --> 00:34:35.000
And appreciate it. That takes introspection.

630
00:34:35.519 --> 00:34:39.360
So for me, really my purpose and It's taken me

631
00:34:39.400 --> 00:34:42.400
a long time to really to be able to articulate

632
00:34:42.400 --> 00:34:45.960
it is really to make a difference in people lives

633
00:34:46.320 --> 00:34:49.960
and then to help them really unleash their potential. So

634
00:34:50.079 --> 00:34:55.800
that's why I came to that realization. Uh, but it

635
00:34:55.880 --> 00:34:58.239
was a long process. It was a long process.

636
00:34:59.119 --> 00:35:02.280
Yeah, Masago, I want to thank you. I have one

637
00:35:02.320 --> 00:35:05.480
final question and John I'll wrap up the show. Is that,

638
00:35:05.760 --> 00:35:09.039
first of all, we really value your insights as we've

639
00:35:09.039 --> 00:35:12.280
progressed through this podcast. I'm curious because you've talked a

640
00:35:12.320 --> 00:35:16.199
lot in your book and through this interview about creating

641
00:35:16.239 --> 00:35:20.639
an opportunity to help your people develop in personal development.

642
00:35:20.920 --> 00:35:21.719
You wrote a book.

643
00:35:21.760 --> 00:35:23.719
I know you mentioned David Brooks and one of the

644
00:35:23.719 --> 00:35:27.400
other books and you mentioned David Brooks is the Second Mountain.

645
00:35:27.800 --> 00:35:32.039
But I'm curious if you were to recommend to an

646
00:35:32.360 --> 00:35:36.079
early leader one or two books you would highly recommend

647
00:35:36.079 --> 00:35:39.559
they read besides yours, of course, what one or two

648
00:35:39.599 --> 00:35:41.440
books would you recommend to them?

649
00:35:41.840 --> 00:35:44.920
I would say there is one there Good Boss, Bad Boss.

650
00:35:45.039 --> 00:35:48.119
That's by Robert I think is Tattan that would be

651
00:35:48.280 --> 00:35:52.000
That would be another one me you think here there

652
00:35:52.079 --> 00:35:55.400
is another one by Jeneman, thinking Fast and Slow. That

653
00:35:55.599 --> 00:35:58.159
was also a great book that I would recommend. So

654
00:35:58.199 --> 00:36:01.280
those are two there they read. There is a one

655
00:36:01.360 --> 00:36:05.239
third one which was a book on appreciative inquiry by

656
00:36:05.400 --> 00:36:08.800
David Cooper Reader. So that's also a good book there

657
00:36:09.360 --> 00:36:13.920
the idea of using appreciative inquiry positive psychology and so

658
00:36:14.000 --> 00:36:17.559
one trying to build now organization from the masses what

659
00:36:17.639 --> 00:36:20.840
they want and then create that overall vision. So that

660
00:36:21.000 --> 00:36:23.360
was a great book as well. So those are books

661
00:36:23.400 --> 00:36:25.480
that come straight to my mind. I'm sure there are

662
00:36:25.800 --> 00:36:26.760
other books out there.

663
00:36:27.519 --> 00:36:31.079
Yeah, good resources to know of as well as the

664
00:36:31.159 --> 00:36:33.360
song Goes book, which you could check out with the

665
00:36:33.400 --> 00:36:36.119
links down in the show notes. Song go How do

666
00:36:36.159 --> 00:36:38.719
we find that book? And then how do we learn

667
00:36:38.760 --> 00:36:40.559
more about you and your work?

668
00:36:41.599 --> 00:36:44.920
Yeah, the book is on Amazon is actually when it

669
00:36:44.960 --> 00:36:47.239
came out, it was a best seller that the book

670
00:36:47.239 --> 00:36:50.920
can be found there hardcover paperback. It's also on Audible

671
00:36:51.440 --> 00:36:55.440
and on Kindle. I could be found on LinkedIn for

672
00:36:56.360 --> 00:36:58.360
my name or some I think I'm the only one

673
00:36:58.400 --> 00:37:01.400
with that name, so I could be rich there and

674
00:37:01.599 --> 00:37:05.119
welcome feedback and people would have to continue the conversation.

675
00:37:05.239 --> 00:37:07.360
That's Robby, the best place to contact me.

676
00:37:08.159 --> 00:37:10.800
The song of Mukua on LinkedIn linked down in the

677
00:37:10.800 --> 00:37:14.519
shoutouts bull Form songos LinkedIn to check out and continue

678
00:37:14.519 --> 00:37:17.559
the conversation with him, as well as his book, you

679
00:37:17.559 --> 00:37:19.559
could check out on Amazon, which is down in the

680
00:37:19.559 --> 00:37:22.400
showout So Songo, thank you so much for your time

681
00:37:22.440 --> 00:37:25.480
today and for your insights on leadership. We really enjoyed

682
00:37:25.480 --> 00:37:26.119
the conversation.

683
00:37:26.920 --> 00:37:29.679
No, thank you so much for the conversation and I'm

684
00:37:29.719 --> 00:37:31.199
grateful for the opportunity.

685
00:37:31.599 --> 00:37:34.079
Thank you for joining us this week at the Limitless

686
00:37:34.159 --> 00:37:37.159
Leadership Lounge. To listen to this episode again and to

687
00:37:37.199 --> 00:37:41.159
find previous episodes, check us out on Apple Podcasts, Spotify,

688
00:37:41.320 --> 00:37:43.719
and Spreaker. You can also get in on the conversation

689
00:37:43.960 --> 00:37:46.719
find us on Facebook and Instagram. Then tell three of

690
00:37:46.719 --> 00:37:48.039
your friends to join in as well.

691
00:37:48.519 --> 00:37:49.960
Coach Bernua and John.

692
00:37:50.000 --> 00:37:52.960
We'll be back again next week for another try generational

693
00:37:53.039 --> 00:37:54.039
leadership discussion.

694
00:37:54.320 --> 00:37:55.280
We'll talk to you then.

695
00:37:55.480 --> 00:38:00.400
I'm a Limitless Leadership Lounge