Episode 119 | Why Mental Toughness is a Daily Practice, Not a Personality Trait

speaker-0: Welcome back to the Lead with Hope Podcast. I'm your host, Brandy Kelly, and today on the show, we're joined by Matt Thoman. He is a sports mental performance and life coach with deep roots in education. After a cancer diagnosis and a stroke, Matt turned his own journey of recovery into a mission to help others. And so today He is empowering athletes, educators, and teams, helping them overcome adversity and build mental toughness. So, Matt, I'm super excited to hear a little bit more about this journey. And I want to just start off today, tell us your story. Tell us a little bit about who you are.

speaker-1: Yeah, I guess it it depends on how far back we wanna go into that story. But you know, I grew up I mean sports, athletics athletics and education were both big in in my house growing up. My mom was a school teacher, my I mean my my brother, my my my sister's a a president of a university, my brother was in is an administrator. It's like this is like we were in education, we were all in sports, so I mean, where I and Where I ended up now and doing these things, it's not a you know, you know what I mean, it's not an accident, 'cause I went into education, was coaching, doing things like that, got into administration as my myself and really enjoyed that. Would probably still be an administrator. I was an athletic director, assistant principal, I'd probably still be doing that or some iteration of that, right? except for I got, you know, got knocked down pretty hard in the middle of Right in the middle of COVID, like it was a just this w perfect storm. Of course, I I'm a very gregarious person. Do not did not enjoy being sent home during COVID, right? Like I I liked I liked my job. I like being around. I did not I didn't like the idea of going home and basically doing nothing for however many months it was. I got my diagnosis of cancer literally the day we got back to school for in the fall of COVID, right? So I spent the morning Helping kids get to class, doing all these things, kinda pretty excited about being there. And that's when I got my diagnosis with cancer. Immediately go into sir survival mode, right? It it's like nothing else matters at that point 'cause you're trying to figure out how far is it spread, what's the prognosis, all these things. And meanwhile trying to continue to run a school. I've got my own kids to worry about. My daughter my that was my daughter's first year of college was COVID, right? Trying to do she was trying to right. So you're worried about her. my son was a junior in in high school or about to be when COVID started. He's trying to get recruited to play basketball. That's getting shut down. just so many things. The hits cape kept coming. My my wife had spinal decompression surgery 'cause from had a back injury. my principal got sent home. She was expecting and got COVID. So they said you're you're done. Like, leave. And so I'm trying to run the school, doing everything at home, because my wife's let up, worried about my kids. And I I that's a lot of stress. It was more than I was prepared to handle. And I didn't know how to handle it. And so I didn't handle it and ended up having a lot of issues with anxiety, stress. my biggest symptom was that it I was almost Basically unable to sleep. It just that I never could never shut things down. I was constantly in that fight or flight. That was the trigger I needed to have an ischemic stroke. One minute I was fine. The next minute just could barely speak, couldn't say my wife's name, my kids name, and the you know, they sent me home, said, Hey, it's just gonna be a year or eighteen months to recover to learn how to speak and write again. And I was joked that Not being able to speak to people does not help your anxiety. Like it's it's like everything and but nobody ever gave me a tool on how to deal with the anxiety. Yeah. They gave me a pill how to deal with the anxiety, but they never gave me a tool on how to deal with the well, that's not enough, right? And and I ended up a month later, I was back in the ER, PTSD. full on anxiety attacks. And that's whenever I finally was told, like, hey, you gotta figure something out. We gotta do something different. Started working with a therapist, worked with positive psychology, was the gods and it it means it just it it everything started to come together for me that this is it I could do something about this. Learned about neuroplasticity. I can change the way I thought. Loved it so much, Brandy, that I said, This is this is stuff I wish I'd have known when I was teaching, coaching. administrator, like why are we not teaching kids these tools? Why are we not teaching coaches these tools? And it kind of made me mad that that it was like this is not something that is done. And so I went and got my coaching certification. Coaching is based in positive psychology. So I'm not a therapist, but I'm working out of the same stuff just from a different angle and said, man, I'm going, I'm gonna do what I wish somebody'd have done with me. And my teams and all these things and said, I'm gonna go start teaching this these mental toughness tools and make it an actual intentional practice, not just saying, you need to be more mentally tough. you'll figure it out. We're just gonna put you more in more adversity until you get tougher, which is usually what we do for athletics and for kids and stuff. Well, we'll make them do these hard things and they'll figure it out. Well, what if they don't? Right. Right? And that happens. So we might as well practice it. We wanna work on these tools, become more mentally tough as a practice, as an intentional choice. And that's what I do now. So that's that's a a short version that's that's mostly about me, that's but it's the short version of of how I got to be doing what I do now with my business. So

speaker-0: Powerful story, Matt. It is incredibly powerful to think about, you know, we all went through COVID and COVID is tough. It was tough. It was a trauma. and and trauma literally defined as a wound. And it depends on how you perceive that wound. But you take that trauma that we all experience with COVID, and then you add a cancer diagnosis. You add pretty debilitating anxiety. add an ischemic stroke. And that doesn't even factor in what was going on in your environment at home with your wife and her surgery, what you were dealing with at school, with your principal, you know, having or your yeah, your principal having to leave. That's correct, right? That's a lot.

speaker-1: Yeah. My wife and my principal both went down in the went down in the same week. and it was a b and that was about like I would say about three weeks after I came back from having surgery on my cancer. I was not prepared. Yeah. Like yeah.

speaker-0: And I hate to say this, but in education today, we are not protecting our people from what you went through.

speaker-1: No. No. It's and the thing is, all educators, and I would I say this almost all are there to help people. Right. And that's what we do. We don't necessarily do a good job of helping ourselves, right? And so we don't it's like I'm I s I spend all my time focusing on helping somebody else at the expense of not paying attention to myself. And and then that becomes something like Like the staff worries about the kids. They don't necessarily worry about each other. Or we're it's I mean, so many districts, that's their that's their motto. It's like, hey, we're all about the kids, we're all about the kids. And it should be. But we don't always think about well, the best way we can help the kids is to make sure that our staff is mentally, physically, and emotionally on on point. And that's a problem.

speaker-0: when I was a principal, I would often tell teachers that with the behavior issues that they were dealing with with any student or students in their classroom, they could choose to either proactively deal with that or reactively deal with that. Either way, we're going to invest the time.

speaker-1: Yeah. one way one way or the other.

speaker-0: Do you want to focus on the problems or do you want to focus on the solutions? And so you and I are in this space doing the same thing. We have made that conscious decision based out of our own adversity, based out of our own life experiences to focus on the solutions. So you talked a little bit about the fact that people wanted to give you a a a pill to deal with the increasing, but they didn't want to give you a tool. They they didn't necessarily have that tool available for you until you sought that out for yourself. So for the listeners today, is there a simple tool? Because I think oftentimes the best answers are the the simplest

speaker-1: you took the words out of my mouth. Like it's not the problem is anything that I'm gonna suggest here, and I'll and I may suggest a lot of things, nothing is gonna be like it's not rocket science. Right. It's about intentional practice daily. And and the best way I can the you know, the best way to me kind of connect with people on that is let's say you and I said we need to Get in better shape. And say I say I think I need to lose 20, 30 pounds. My doctor says I to lose 20, 30 pounds. And you might start a plan where you would eat right, you would start to exercise, you want to go to the gym. And we instinctively know we would like that to happen tomorrow. Nobody, everybody knows that doesn't happen. Like if you want to get bigger, faster, stronger, you want to be better shaped, it's going to take. Multi it's you have to do something almost on it every day. You may have some cheat days, I get that. But you're gonna have to work on this as a daily pursuit in the gym, running, whatever your choice is, and it's gonna have to be a a d a lifestyle decision that you change the way you do things. And we know that if we do that, that over like you spend three or four months doing this, you can lose that 20, 30 pounds healthy and doing it the right way. For some reason, we don't see Our mental abilities and our mental toughness and our mental strength is the same thing. It's like, well, I heard I heard this idea and I tried it once and it didn't work. Well, that's like saying I ate well, I ate good today and I went to the gym. Why aren't I not why am I not in better shape? And we understand that from a physical, but we don't always look at it from a mental. So I think that that's the big that's the biggest problem. Is that when I suggest these things to everybody, it's like I just say it over and over and over again. It's about we have to recognize the problem. Yeah. And be and understand that you're like, hey, I'm not thinking my mindset is not where it should be. And then we have to repeat actions to get better at it. So it's recognition, then repetition. And that the good news is it can be that simple. It's not about the simplicity or the or the complexity. It's the it's the consistency over time.

speaker-0: Absolutely. Yeah. That consistency compounds.

speaker-1: so much.

speaker-0: I do some counseling, I do some coaching, and many of the people in both of those spaces, they feel stuck between what they've been through in life and what they feel like they should be doing. Yeah. And so for you, in the work that you're doing now, what mindset shifts do you think are necessary for people to cultivate to move out of that stuckness?

speaker-1: Well, the biggest and this is gonna sound again, I gonna keep saying how simple things a are. we have to be very conscious the importance of this again, this is gonna sound so simple and so cheesy or it's the importance of positivity. Yeah. It's it's not and but when I say that, please understand that a lot of times when we say positivity, we get the old we get the the Pollyanna idea that it's silly and rainbows and things like this. And and I contend that positivity is so much harder than negativity. Negativity is easy. It negativity is like our default. It's so easy to complain about everything, but yeah that for some reason that's okay. We kind of laugh that off. Well they're just they're just grumpy and they complain all the time, but they mean well. Well that's fine, but it's not helpful, right? So I think that some of the toughest people I know are the people that are positive regardless of the situation. So learning to me, that's that's a number one is learning how to build and positivity is a mindset. And that's I think that's the other thing is people talk about like, are you a pessimistic or an optimistic person? Are you a negative person or a positive person? And we say it in such of a way that we think that that is a an absolute. That that is like, I was Born a negative person. Well, that's you know what I mean? Like we can change that. That's and that's the thing that we don't believe. And so when we talk about a positive mindset, the two things, one, it's something that's absolutely it's simple, but it's not easy, and that's key. And two, it's something that you can develop over time, that consistency. You can literally start to change the neurons and the neural pathways in your mind so that you see. solutions instead of problems. And that's or or gr see gratitude in a situation. And that's it it's it's changed how I see everything. And it's taken time to do that. But it it's worth it.

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speaker-0: Now, when you look back to the person you once were, we're perfectly positioned to help the person that we once were. When you look back to that earlier version of you, what habits would you cultivate to create that positive mindset early on in your leadership?

speaker-1: It's a great question. I think that it's I think the biggest thing is There's a lot to be said for not trying to control everything. Yeah. and that's sometimes that can feel like a negative thing because it's like if we start to figure out all these things I can't control, that becomes very negative. Uh-huh. Well, instead, we gotta be able to just focus on the things I can control just like so much in a positive way. Right. Right. If I wanna influence something, if I wanna change something, that I have to do that with my actions, my words, my communication, and it has to be done in an unbelievably positive way. And I would tell you that the old version of me, really easy to be negative about things and really trying to like really worry about what was gonna hap what somebody else was gonna do, what somebody else was gonna say, the the result. All these things and just worry constantly about well, what if this happens? What if this happens? What if that's all these things that I had z next to no control over. And even if I did have control over it, it led me to want to manipulate things, right? Which is never a good way of doing leadership. so learning how to focus on what I can control, ignoring what I can't, let that go, and then just be uber positive. about what I can control and just don't even have in the brain space for the other. If that if that helps. Yeah.

speaker-0: it sounds a little bit cheesy, but you grow what you focus on. Yep. That's just a universal truth. Yeah. Yeah. And you know, with the work that I do, I do counseling and I do coaching and and people are like, Well, what's the difference between the two? Well Through counseling, I'm focused on on healing and understanding those patterns and the past and the psychological root of some of this these issues. But with coaching, it focuses on growth and moving forward.

speaker-1: It's all full speed full speed ahead. Yes.

speaker-0: It's all forward thinking. And that's one of the things. I love both, but for the coaching space, that's one of the things I really like about that because, like you said, focusing on what you can control and looking forward through the windshield instead of the rear view mirror or or you know, looking backwards, we don't want to look backwards. We want to look forward and continue to grow and to become the best version of who God created you to be.

speaker-1: Yeah. Well, I think I loved it. The way I explain coaching to somebody who really doesn't understand it or it's new to them is that it it's about getting you from your point A to point B. Point A is that rec when point A and B are recognition of here's where I am, here's where I want to be. And then the repetition is about, well, how do we get there? And and that is that is that's exciting to me. It's be able to say, Hey, I here's where I am, here's where I want to be. What can I do to get there? What's in my control to get there? And then let's start doing that. And then let's again quit wasting brain space on the things that don't move us forward for that.

speaker-0: Absolutely. we all use GPS, we use Siri or whatever. And and a coach is kind of like GPS. So we're providing that accountability. And if you set a goal with your coach and you start veering off and getting off course, the coach is not going to shame you or criticize you. The coach is going to encourage you and say, turn right. And they're going to help you. Correct for that miscalculation or that deviation towards your goal. And the other thing I love about coaching is the fact that in addition to that supportive accountability, you're also a consistent source of encouragement, somebody who sees the other person's potential before they can see it in themselves sometimes.

speaker-1: Well, I think that that's one of the best things about coaching and one of the things that it can teach is that knowing that mistakes are gonna happen, but being able to see the truth in that mistake, and here's the key, Brandy, without passing judgment. Yes. That is that is something that really I really struggled with that I noticed so much now. It's like, well, here's here's something that happened. Did I do something wrong? Maybe. I should have done it differently. Probably. But then to say, okay, this happened. What's the move forward? Right. And instead of saying, man, I'm such an idiot. I did this wrong. I always do this. Instead of instead of passing judgment, we talk about, well, here's what happened. How what do we do next? And I think that there's a lot of people, there's a whole lot of psychology behind that about that that saboteur of judgment. And we it's hard, really hard for a lot of people, partly bec for a couple of reasons. One, it's so natural. Yeah. And two, I think people think that that's how we get better. And it's it's I don't know. You can make intr you it can move you forward a little bit at a time, but it it ha it comes with a lot of consequences.

speaker-0: one of the things I start with whenever I coach people is some kind of a self-awareness assessment. One of my favorites is the disc. I love the disc because it gives a comprehensive report, tells you how you respond under stress. It helps you to see your strengths. And I like to build on strengths in coaching. but starting with that point of self-awareness so that people can. Create a growth plan. I love working with principals, assistant principals, people who are change agents for their school so that we can create hope-fueled cultures where people feel seen and heard and valued. I mean, that really lights me up. I love that. I'm passionate about that work. For you, when you coach. Who's your ideal client? when do you get really passionate about your work?

speaker-1: Well, most of my stuff is in the athletic space. I do some educational stuff as well. I've done recently this week a lot. It's you know, it's pe it's August, so there's a lot going on. I think that I've worked with with individual athletes, with teams, with coaches and with staff and and things like that. I do think that one of my favorites, and it it's a toss-up sometimes, but I I think that one of my favorite groups to work with is the coaches of of athletic teams. Yeah. and there's a couple of reasons for that. I think that coaches There's a there's a quote and I can't remember who said it, but the a a coach's impact, meaning an athletic coach, a coach's impact on a child is never neutral. And so they can make a kid's emotional, physical, mental health worse, or they can make it better. And it's almost never neutral. And a lot of coaches There's a lot of coaches on either side of that divide. And I wanna believe that the ones that make it worse aren't necessarily doing it on purpose. Right. So so and what I'm the reason I like working with coaches is so many coaches coach like they were coached.

speaker-0: Mm-hmm.

speaker-1: Even if they would say they didn't enjoy it, they didn't like it, they didn't think it was best, they fall into that trip trap of just coaching like they used to be coached. And so when I start working with coaches and start giving them some of the research behind it, how that actually affects kids. And just because you're winning games doesn't mean you're making mentally healthy individuals. In fact, sometimes it's the opposite. And how this can have some long term health effects and and how we can use positivity and use some of this coaching to make them more mentally healthy and by the way it can still help you win games. Yeah. Whenever I start giving them that information and start talking about it, I think a lot of them the light comes on. Either the light comes on and they're like, Yeah, I I want to do this better, or they sometimes they've heard about it, they know it's an option. But then somebody who's had some experience and does this for a living comes and tells them it kind of gives them that that pass now to go, okay. That I've been wanting to do something like this. I didn't know how to do it. I thought it would come out the wrong way. This guy's saying this. I I'm gonna start doing this. So no, I I I really like working with the coaches because I think that ultimately they're the people that are gonna help, you know, spread and and give these ideas and and do that. So that's that's who I love working.

speaker-0: And that impact is exponential. People don't get into education because they want to hurt kids, they get into education because they want to make a difference. They they love the students that they work with and they want them to be the best that they can possibly be. And I believe that that awareness creates choice for them. And when they know better, they're going to do better.

speaker-1: Yeah, they will. I agree.

speaker-0: That a hundred percent, Matt. And I'm I'm grateful. that you are out there doing that work and you're equipping them and giving them the resources that they need to create systems where where kids can thrive. Yeah.

speaker-1: Absolutely. And it's so much fun. I've been doing some stuff lately with some schools where I go in and I work with the coaches, then I go back and work with the athletes. I there's a school I worked with recently. I worked with the coaches, I worked with the athletes, and then I worked with the parents. And you weren't talking about really setting a kid up. yeah. Like that they all three, there's three legs of that stool that are gonna hold the kid up themselves, the coach, and their parent. And if they're all doing an attacking their ability to face adversity in a positive way. And they're like you talk about a kid that's gonna be hireable and have and be a good parent someday and a a good spouse. Like this is this is that's why I like athletics. Just I don't I care about win who winning game win games, but really not not really like that's not what it that's not what it's about to me.

speaker-0: It it's more about the human being, It's more about helping these kids and setting them up for success. So I love, I love the work that you're doing. And when you think about the work you're doing in the spaces that you're doing it in, I'm curious what's giving you hope in the world right now?

speaker-1: I think that it's starting to become more commonplace. So the there there's the some of the work that that I do that that maybe you do, there's a there's a little bit of stigma around it. Mm-hmm if that makes sense. Yeah. and I'm starting to see that change. So in my p my own podcast, I interview a lot of athletes, coaches, and And I'm finding that this focus on the mental health within the athletics, it's a it's a top down, right? So i I can hardly find a pro team or a high level coach college team that isn't doing some part of this. And I we're and I have a lot on my podcasts, I talk to a lot of Olympic athletes. They all do it. It's all part of their routine. Yeah. It's not quite down at the youth level, probably where we need it the most yet. but I see it trending down that way. And it bec and it's just more and more of the It's more and more commonplace. Right. And and so once we start to see that and the way it's gonna happen, Brandy, I talk about how it to me it's not about necessarily the winning. That doesn't necessarily catch a lot of traction. But what you're gonna have is you're gonna start to see high level athletes that understand that proper. Mental toughness and proper mental preparation, which is a healthy thing, starts to help them win games and be more successful. People are gonna see that at and I already work with athlete and teams and schools that do this, they see it as a leg up on the competition. Yeah. That's what gives me hope is when people say, Hey, well, if my athletes are more mentally healthy and more mentally tough, we're gonna win more games. Right or wrong reason, I don't care. That's what gives me hope is that that's starting to become part of the conversation. That investing in the mental health of the athletes is best for our winning games.

speaker-0: And you make a great point that, the the pro teams, all those athletes, they have either an individual or an individual and a team coach. And they work on these kinds of things consistently. Mm-hmm. It's an investment. Yes. And if if it's important to invest in professional teams like this. Why aren't we doing it for our administrators and

speaker-1: Yeah, I agree.

speaker-0: coaches, our athletic coaches, and all of the people that work in the school? Because I'm biased, I will admit it, but at the end of the day, who is going to impact more people? It's going to be people that are working in our schools. Yeah.

speaker-1: I agree. It yes. And it it should be something that that is done more, but it's people have to be open to it too. As you know that, like you go into workplaces, like they gotta somebody's gotta want it. There's there's a lot I hate to say this, but there's some people that have been in education for a while that are like kind of like enjoy being the old grumpy negative. Yeah. Like they wear it as a bad badge badge of honor and I don't know. I it's it's I'm not a fan of it.

speaker-0: No, I I'm not either. And it's, creating toxic environments and schools. And more and more education is a space where teachers now they can get a job just about anywhere. it's August. Schools are starting And I will guarantee you that if you are an administrator listening this today and you don't have an open position,

speaker-1: You must be doing something right.

speaker-0: you're blessed. Because the reality is most of the administrators that I talk to these days, they're struggling to fill every open position that they have. And then you have to think about the fact that with those teachers, how many of them are going into administration? How many of them are wanting to be an assistant principal or a principal or an athletic director? And then of those people, how many of them go on to be a superintendency? Our pipelines are really struggling right now. And so we need to create environments where people are proud to go to work. They don't have the the Sunday scaries. They don't have that pit in the stomach. They don't have that debilitating anxiety because of what they have to face each and every day. We we need to do a better job in our schools. And I think that having people like you coming in and working with students, people like me coming in and working with administrators, we can help to set the tone. to change the climate, to change the culture, and to create those hope fueled cultures that I think we all want.

speaker-1: Well, I mean, it's yeah, I mean, I know that there's a lot there's all sorts of reasons people stay in jobs and doing things and and you know, mo money is a is a big part of it. And it's hard in education. I get that. But y if you're not like if you're not as an administrator actively working on the culture in your building to keep people there, even if they say I'm gonna stay in education they're gonna go somewhere else. They can go somewhere else. Right. Right. So you are you are somewhat like competitive with your other districts in your area because money's gonna be, you know, what it is, but but you've got to be able to make it be somewhere that they wanna be and that they have something to be one a part of. And working on that culture starts with working on the individuals and making sure that they're in a positive mental health place.

speaker-0: Everything begins in the mind. And so we have to take captive our thoughts and be intentional about the habits that we are cultivating in our lives and in the lives of those that we lead as well. And so, Matt, as we come to a close of this episode, I'm just curious, do you have any closing thoughts as a coach for the listeners?

speaker-1: I just think that you I mean you said the word there, just intentional. And and it is it it's I said it before, th there's nothing overly complex or difficult about the things that I'm talking to pe people about or that you do. It is making sure that you are intentionally consistent with it and find a way to do it. I think the best ways to do that are. Take something that I give somebody, like working on writing down, you know, three good things every night, or working on focusing on writing down my foc I call my focus words and what I'm gonna focus on today. Here's something I can control. And writing those down and and maybe journaling about them every day or something like that. Like find a way to stack that, make that a habit by stacking it onto another habit somehow. Or even better, have an accountability partner where you do it together. You We think that, this is a good idea, I'll do that. But if you don't make a plan to build this habit and make it, it's not gonna happen. And then you're not gonna get the benefit of it. And that is to me, that's the thing. Is like I I love coming to your school. I want you to hire me. I want them to hire you. But quite honestly, it that that's the trick is you can go out and you can find some mental health tools on your own. It you don't need me if What you really need is somebody and some way to start intentionally working on these things. That's the trick. and that's the step that pe most people don't get past. Yeah.

speaker-0: Absolutely.

speaker-1: Well, and they want, and the thing is, the the metaphor I love is w the problem is they do it a couple of times, maybe they didn't get the gain that they want. You have to see this sort of stuff not as a toggle switch, but as a dimmer switch. It is not an on-off switch that we flip. It is something that we turn up very slowly, very gradually, but before you know, before you know it, if you stay intentional with it, it's it's very bright in the room. Absolutely. That th we have to see it that way. Yeah.

speaker-0: and I'll use exercise for an example here, Matt. You know, for years I said I I really need to exercise. I know it's the right thing to do for my health, for my longevity, for my well-being. And in my mind, I thought I had to do it for an hour. If I was gonna exercise, I had to have an hour.

speaker-1: yeah.

speaker-0: You don't have to start where you are. Maybe it's a 10-minute walk. Maybe it's getting on your bike. before you leave the house and writing for 10 minutes. And when you do that every day, it's a non-negotiable everyday activity that you do. And you can you can replace exercise with any habit you want to create. Start where you are, start small and just build, like you said.

speaker-1: telling you if you bookend your if you would bookend your day with get up in the morning start with something that you want to work on focus on a a controllable even do it in some sort of prayer something and say I'm going to spend five minutes on here's what I want to be today and then five minutes at the end of the day journaling on how you did and finding the good and you built with those 10 minutes bookending your day you will start to make more so much more progress than you think. And I n I listen, I know how busy people are, but you've got ten minutes at five at the end of e we just do. Just wait wait till Sunday when iPhone tells you how many hours you sp spent on your phone and don't and tell me you don't have five minutes, right? Right. you've got it. So

speaker-0: small choices make a big impact. So start where you are, invest in yourself today, and just pick one small habit to start cultivating in your life or in your leadership. whatever you need to do, start there. So, Matt, this is a powerful conversation. I love talking about all things positive psychology. So why don't we end this conversation today with you sharing with the listeners how they can get in touch with you if they want to learn more about the work you do.

speaker-1: Yeah, absolutely. My my website, it's my business is mental metal coaching. Metal is M-E-T-T-L-E, the you know, the ability to face adversity in a spirited way. yeah, so you can you can find me on a lot of places. You look up mental metal you you know, go to Google. Mental Metal Coaching, you'll find me. I've got a podcast, I've got website, I've got all sort of things. yeah. Look it up, find me. I would love to chat.

speaker-0: And Matt, I appreciate you being on the show today. This has been a great conversation. And I'm going to add the link to your podcast in the show notes. I was recently on Matt's show. And so if you enjoy this episode of the Lead with Hope podcast, I am sure you will enjoy our conversation on mental metal. So again, thank you for being on the show and I look forward to staying in contact with you.

speaker-1: Thanks, Brandy.

LWH Closing: That's a wrap for today's episode of Lead with Hope. ⁓ Remember, ⁓ the world needs your leadership and change starts with you. ⁓ Fuel your life with HOPE, embrace your purpose, and shine your light for others. ⁓ If this episode inspired you, I'd be so grateful if you could take a moment to give us a five-star rating and share it. ⁓ Every review helps spread HOPE ⁓ and empowers more leaders to rise. ⁓ Thanks for listening ⁓ and until next time, ⁓ keep leading with HOPE. ⁓