Episode 276: The Leadership TAP with Dr. Joy Karavedas

Darrin Peppard (00:00.948)

All right, my friends, welcome into episode 276 of the Leaning Into Leadership podcast. You know, leadership doesn't just happen. It's not something people magically step into fully prepared. And yet all across our schools and organizations, we continue to promote people based on performance. And then we hope that they figure out leadership on the fly. Today's conversation is about changing that. Because if we're serious about building strong organizations, then we have to

Because if we're serious about building strong organizations, then we have to be just as intentional about developing our leaders as we are about evaluating results. This is a shitty intro and outro. Let's try again.

Darrin Peppard (00:52.268)

All right, my friends, welcome into episode 276 of the Leaning Into Leadership podcast. know, leadership doesn't just happen. It's not something people magically step into fully prepared. And yet all across our schools and organizations, we continue to promote people based on performance. And then we hope that they figure out leadership on the fly. Well, today's conversation is about changing that. Because if we're serious about building strong organizations, then

We have to be just as intentional about developing leaders as we are about evaluating results. And that same idea shows up in another critical area, academic support. Let's talk about today's sponsor, HeyTutor. You see, when students struggle, we don't just hope they figure it out. We put systems in place to support them. We build structures that are intentional, targeted, and designed to help them succeed. That is exactly what HeyTutor does.

You see, HeyTutor provides high dosage tutoring in math and English language arts, both in person and online, with trained tutors who integrate directly into your school system. Their approach aligns with what we know works, targeted support, consistent progress monitoring, and real accountability for results. They don't just fill gaps, they build capacity. And just like leadership development, when you're intentional about support on the front end, you avoid a whole lot of struggle.

on the back end. If you're looking for a partner to strengthen student outcomes in your school or district, head over to heytutor.com or hit the link down in the show notes, check out how they can support your team. Again, that's heytutor.com. Let them know you heard about them here on the Leaning Into Leadership podcast. Okay, folks, so let's dive into this episode. Today, I am joined by Dr. Joy Karavitis, an accomplished educator, a leadership expert, and the author of the new book,

the leadership tap. And Joy brings more than two decades of experience in education and leadership. And what I love about this conversation is just how practical and real it is. We talk about that moment that so many leaders can point to, the tap on the shoulder, that moment when someone saw something in you before you saw yourself. But we're not gonna stop there. We're gonna dig into actually what it takes to build a leadership pipeline.

Darrin Peppard (03:15.096)

how to support people through what Joy calls the messy middle, and why leadership development can't just be about performance. It has to be about including trust and authenticity. If you've ever thought about how to grow your leadership team or how to better support the new leaders stepping into their roles, this episode will hit home. I'll see you on the other side.

All right, everybody, welcome back into the show. My guest today, Dr. Joy Karavides. Joy, thanks so much for joining me here on the show.

Dr. Joy Karavedas (00:15.04)

My pleasure, Darren. I love chatting with you.

Darrin Peppard (00:18.678)

Yeah, absolutely. you know, as I think about our conversation today and the, mean, we've spent quite a bit of time here before we even hit record having a really good conversation, but I know you have a new book out, The Leadership Tap, and we were just talking about that tap on the shoulder, that growing and building your bench of leaders. And I've always felt like as a leader, you have a moral imperative to grow the next generation of leaders.

We'll probably talk a little bit about maybe the story of me being tapped on the shoulder. Maybe we'll hear a little bit of your story as well. Then we're definitely going to get into all this awesome content. But before we do that, let's just very quick, you know, we'll hit the rewind button, go back as far as you want, maybe just share for our folks who aren't necessarily familiar with you, even though you have been a guest on this show previously. Just tell them a little bit about Joy Caravitas and yeah, just take it from there.

Dr. Joy Karavedas (01:17.386)

Awesome, thank you. Well, I have been a long time educator in a lot of different types of roles. everything from like most of us we start out in. I started out as an academic advisor many, many, many moons ago. Went up through the ranks through assistant principal, principal at a couple of different schools. I've worked in this. I'm in the state of California now have also been.

For a short time there, I worked as a principal over in the state of Idaho, lovely Idaho. But right now I'm currently in the role as the Dean of Online Learning at a private school, Orange Lutheran High School in Southern California. It's about just over 1,500 students on campus, nine through 12th. And we're looking at, we have a brick and mortar school, but we also have a fairly large online component and online capacity.

there as well. That's my day job. I also like to work with other leaders and I really enjoy, especially those who might be in the assistant principal role or in new leaders and you know new to the principal role in there. How do I figure this out? what what have I or sometimes it's what have I gotten myself into? And we work through, we work through just kind of

Darrin Peppard (02:36.674)

Right.

Dr. Joy Karavedas (02:40.558)

How do we set priorities? What are some of the first things first? And looking through a few of those different roles, helping coach them up. Most of them are really well qualified, but just having to coach through the decision-making processes and the prioritizing processes and some of those other things. I work with a lot of people in that realm through my business.

Darrin Peppard (03:06.38)

So leadership just runs through your veins. That's exactly what it is. yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely. So yeah, yeah, absolutely. So I mentioned it a second ago and I think I want to go back to that. We're going to get into the book here in just a little bit. as we were talking and as I was reading through your book and all for our YouTube folks, I'll go ahead and.

Dr. Joy Karavedas (03:11.534)

Don't you escape sometimes?

Darrin Peppard (03:34.691)

you know, hold it up there so you can take a look at it. For our audio folks, we'll definitely have a link in the show notes for it. the leadership tap and, I think back to my first teaching job way back in the mid nineties. I was hired as a middle school science teacher, worked under an incredible principal, Betsy Parker. I've talked about her here on the show numerous times. One of these days I probably had to just have Betsy on.

show and I think she listens and so now she's gonna hear that and there's no way she won't take me take me up on that but somewhere it was either between my first and second year between my second and third year I was in the office in the summer and it seemed out of nowhere but I know it was intentional she's told me this since there was essentially a tap on the shoulder and she said you know Darren you really ought to think about going into school leadership and honestly Joey that

That was something I had never considered. I wanted to be a head coach and that was really what pulled me into education. I wanted to be a head basketball coach and obviously that was something I was able to achieve but that conversation, even now 27, 28 years later, resonates in my mind. And I know there were a number of times where I tapped others on the shoulder. I know there are groups that I have worked with.

I worked with a district one time and the whole thing was we need to build our leadership bench, help us develop a system to build the bench. So one, I want to know your tap on the shoulder story and then maybe, let's just go there because then I have a follow-up question.

Dr. Joy Karavedas (05:20.92)

So, well, I'm going to go back to just even before the actual tap on the shoulder, how I actually got into education. was on my road to becoming an attorney. That's what I thought I wanted. My undergrad went into that, thought I was going to law school. Out of college, got married, took a side.

Job over in a law office and this was where I was headed. This is what I thought I was doing I had a friend of mine who was an assistant principal at that time in education and She is the first person who said I think you should consider education You know, maybe that's something that you were helping other students and helping other people get to what the things that you like to do Maybe that would be something that was my first my first actual

job in education was as an academic advisor at a very small little school. And it changed my life. And that was the first tap on the shoulder, but not quite for leadership. My leadership roles have been a little different in that as I have moved up, I went, I told you I did a stint in Idaho and that was the first place I started out, went into,

assistant principal role. I started out actually in a different role out of university and then moved over into some again somebody tapped you on the shoulder and said I think you we want you over here. I did my certificate my administration certificate there in Idaho as an assistant principal role and I had another school and the principal there had asked a few times said I think I'm going to want you as a principal at our school and I kept saying

I don't know. It happened to be also the school my husband was coaching football at at the time. And that was one of the things I'm like, I don't know. And he probably asked two or three times until finally I just asked why, you what is it about that that that would be important that you keep asking me? And he said, well, you you have the experience, the expertise, things like that. But it's all about perspective. Also, he says, I think that your

Darrin Peppard (07:14.496)

Yeah.

Dr. Joy Karavedas (07:41.836)

background and others bring a different perspective that would be good not just for our students but for our faculty and staff. And it kind of changed my idea of what I should be looking at. It wasn't just the can I build a budget, can I work through the accreditation documents, can I talk to the board, the school board. No, it was

how are we going to lead people? What do I bring in the day to day with students, parents, and teachers? And as a principal, my main role is working with those teachers and how do I equip them to work with the students and parents? And so that was that first tap. I will have to say I didn't listen to it the first, it took him about three times before I took him serious. But that was that first role into it.

Darrin Peppard (08:29.334)

Yeah, yeah, nothing wrong with that. At least he was persistent, I think that's definitely a positive right there. you were saying something to me before we hit record about, know, number one, I know you love to write books and you said that you were working on a book and this wasn't the book you wanted to write. This was the book that just kind of came out of...

you sensing and seeing a trend. So let's talk about how that kind of came about, because then I think that'll lead us into talking about the TAP acronym and ways that leaders can really look for the potential in others and some of that kind of stuff.

Dr. Joy Karavedas (09:14.766)

Sure, was. I thought I was going to write a book about how leaders develop as leaders. I had this idea that perhaps men and women, you how do we develop the skills? What are the processes for doing that? What are the experiences you're having? And maybe they're different. And so do we come to the same place or do we come to different places? But as I started interviewing people, I was interviewing several leaders in education and some outside of education.

male and female and the responses I kept getting unfortunately or not they went against my premise and a lot of them had very similar experiences but one of the ones that was across the board was that everybody had that moment and can speak to that moment when somebody tapped them on the shoulder metaphorically and said I think maybe that you'd be a good leader maybe you should apply for this role or step into this role or I'd like to bring you on into this role.

and every single person could name that specific instance of what that looked like. And I thought, well, that's interesting. And it made me think about, we often talk about, where are all the leaders in the world? But we can create that pipeline if we're intentional and we're looking. And we are looking. I have a line in the book where it says, know,

Pat on the back is really nice for a while, but a tap on the shoulder can change your life.

Darrin Peppard (10:45.793)

Absolutely. It was one of my favorite lines of the book. I love that. Yeah. Yeah. Well, I think, I think too, what you're getting at there. And I mean, you mentioned, you know, Nick was a long time football coach and, and in coaching, it is often referred to as your coaching tree, right? Like a family tree, like, you know, Bobby Knight's coaching tree as, a basketball coach or, you know,

Dr. Joy Karavedas (10:48.558)

I'm

Darrin Peppard (11:12.757)

Bill Parcell's coaching tree as a football coach. I've long believed that exact same thing as a school leader. You I look at my coaching tree, my leadership tree and the folks that I've had the great fortune to work alongside with shoulder to shoulder with that are superintendents that are.

you know, building administrators. One of the best ones I ever got the chance to work with just landed a high school principal position in his wife's hometown. I'm so excited for him. But I think that's kind of what you're also kind of talking about there is as leaders, we should always be thinking about how we can, and not that it's about us or that we're trying to grow our legacy. In essence, those leaders do become part of our legacy, but

We should always be looking for growing and identifying those next leaders. And I know you've got some great pieces here in the book to help leaders be a little more intentional about that. Because sometimes leadership talent doesn't just run up and hit you in the face. You have to be intentional and be looking for it. So maybe talk a little bit about that process.

Dr. Joy Karavedas (12:28.43)

I love the word intentional because I agree. That's one of the things I think we forget about sometimes as we were busy in the everyday. Leadership takes time and leadership takes effort and it takes a lot of work and you're busy in running from meeting to meeting and putting out fires and doing all the other things, the great things that we have to do. But I think that we can spend some time actually noticing while we're running frantically.

Who are the people in the room with us? Who are the people around us? What are those things that they are doing? I think that gives us a different look at the ability. I was going to say ability, but that's not the word is the potential, the potential of those people in the room and those the potential of those people around us. I would say that leadership pipelines and that's a little of what you're talking about. They take that intentionality and they take some forward thinking.

not to who as you were saying from your mentor, not to who Darren Pippard is right now, but who could Darren Pippard be? So where is he going? And I think that as we do those things, we notice more and more, we can find some ways to invest in people giving them smaller opportunities for success, celebrating those successes with them.

Darrin Peppard (13:36.309)

Yeah.

Dr. Joy Karavedas (13:52.678)

and moving along with them in that journey and give them time to practice and prepare for leadership before just throwing them into a deep end of the pool.

Darrin Peppard (14:03.295)

Yeah, absolutely. Well, I think that's an important piece too, is giving them opportunities to practice. So often, you and I were talking about this before we jumped into the formal recording that so often leaders are...

just not yet prepared to take on the job. in a lot of cases, and this is why folks like you, folks like me, get to support so many leaders that are out there that are early in their career because they're tossed the keys and told good luck and there isn't that support system to help them. For me, I I went from an AP in the building I became principal, I did 40 feet down the hall and...

Basically it was, here's the keys, good luck. And man, I struggled for a couple years. So I know that that's something that the more opportunities we can give for people to take on real leadership while at the same time being in a place where we can support and guide, ask good questions, maybe even give some edges to the project they're working on. That's a really powerful thing. So I think that that kind of gets to

It kind of gets to a topic that you have in the book where you talk about that messy middle, right? Where we kind of, we see the talent, but it's in those challenges, it's in those struggles, and I guess I'm answering this question for you, so I'm gonna stop and just ask you the question. Talk a little bit more about that messy middle. How do we capitalize on that so that people can grow more?

Dr. Joy Karavedas (15:36.75)

Thank

Dr. Joy Karavedas (15:43.872)

I think that most people, don't like the messy middle, whether they're in it or they're watching somebody else in it. We all wanna run right through it really fast. There's a Dr. Becky out of Harvard, that's what she goes by, she was talking to her students there, she teaches psychology and she talks about the from not knowing to knowing and that road from not knowing to knowing. And...

The whole point of that is during those processes, while you're learning, while you're growing, you become more resilient, you're developing more ideas, more perspective, you are developing as a human, moving from not knowing to knowing. It's not just I didn't have information and now I do. I think in leadership, it's very similar and I call it the messy middle, but when you're moving from beginning to lead to leading,

Darrin Peppard (16:30.027)

Right.

Dr. Joy Karavedas (16:39.758)

you're going to make mistakes. It's going to be messy. Everybody doesn't have the same smooth road. And whether you're the assistant principal moving into principalship or you're the CEO of an organization who's been doing this for 20 years, I think it's still going to be a little bit messy. And that road we learned there, we develop resilience. We learn to our style. We learn who we are and what is

our comfortable role as a leader, how do we approach decision making. There's a lot of things that you don't really know about yourself. And I always say leadership begins on the inside. And you have to know yourself and who you are as a leader before you can start really stepping into that role and feel like, I know what I'm doing, which.

we never really arrived. But I would say on the other side of that, if you're an executive or you're the superintendent and you've got principals and others around you, it can be uncomfortable because we were like, well, I just need somebody to act. I need somebody to do this. you also have to give them that space to grow. And that's your greatest job is helping them to develop or bringing in somebody like you who can help them develop is helping them.

giving them the benefit of that space, creating a safe space with permission to try and permission to fail and fail forward and learn. think we all, regardless of which side you are on between not knowing and knowing, we all want to rush through that. We want to run right through that because it's uncomfortable. It's uncomfortable. It hurts a little bit, but

Allowing ourselves that time to really spend that time growing, developing resilience, developing patience, and learning the skills that we need is really, really beneficial.

Darrin Peppard (18:46.207)

Well, I think that's the key right there too, right? mean, yes to everything you just said, but that messy middle is where we learn. You're right, isn't, know, today I didn't know how to be a principal, tomorrow I do. It's just not how it works. It is this continuum that, you know, is both this linear growth, but also it's a pendulum, and then you get weird.

Dr. Joy Karavedas (18:54.36)

Mm-hmm.

Darrin Peppard (19:12.607)

like things that come in and crash down on it all at the same time, right? Like we were talking about Joshua Stamper, shout out to our good friend, Joshua Stamper. He describes school leadership as it's just like riding a bike, except the bike is on fire and you're on fire and everything is on fire. So yes, it is like in that messy middle, all of that is happening and it is gonna take time to learn and take time to develop. And one of my favorite questions,

Dr. Joy Karavedas (19:28.066)

Good.

Darrin Peppard (19:42.497)

to ask early career leaders, I mean, anytime I'm around someone, even if like not somebody I'm coaching, like I'm just, you know, at a conference somewhere and somebody's like, yeah, I just finished my first year as a principal. Favorite question without question at all. Tell me something you've learned about yourself. Because it's that reflection. That's how we grow. That's how we get better. And man, I get some of the most interesting, like, hmm, types of looks from people when I ask that question.

And it's for that exact reason. It's that messy middle that makes such a difference. Looked like you wanted to jump in on that, so I'm gonna stop talking and let you.

Dr. Joy Karavedas (20:18.806)

Well, think when you say reflection, actually way back when I was doing my doctorate and the research for that, one of the top seven things that came out of what leaders were was most beneficial was the time for reflection. It also came out that I wanted to say something like 84 % of them don't take the time for reflection because we're busy with the bike on fire and we're

We learn so much from that. And I think what we can do if we're leading young leaders or leading new leaders is offer them those questions just like you asked. And we give them space to pause and think, what have I learned here? Rather than just rushing through and say, OK, I finished that. Now let's move on. I think that's really a gift that we can give people.

Darrin Peppard (21:10.72)

Yeah. Yeah.

Absolutely, it's just such an important piece. I talk about it here on the show all the time, this balcony level leadership, like get out of the weeds, get up and just take some time to reflect. So I wanna make sure we get to this, because our time is flying by. One of the core elements of the book is that TAP formula. And I wanna make sure that you have an opportunity to talk about it, because I think it's fantastic, and I think it's really kind of a nice way to maybe pull all of this together. So talk a little bit about that leadership TAP.

Dr. Joy Karavedas (21:43.478)

Sure, so it is an acronym for trust, authenticity, and performance. Trust plus authenticity plus performance is the leadership tap. Not necessarily in that order, but I will speak to them in that way because often when we're tapping people for leadership or we're saying they'd be a good leader, we really spend a lot of time looking at performance. We're looking at what have they done? they do really well in this area. Then we throw them in the deep end of the pool and can't figure out why they don't know how to swim.

because we've only looked at the performance in one level. But performance is key. People don't want to follow a leader who doesn't know what they're doing. But performance, I would say, is something we can help people with. We can train. We can teach. That's where we tend to focus with a lot of our assistant principals, at least in the schools I've seen, on performance. Here's how you work with budgets. Here's how you do an IEP. Here's how you do with conflict resolution.

But then we kind of ignore trust and authenticity. Trust is the foundation of all leadership. think you would probably agree with me. You need to have trust. You need to be able to build trust. But trust is also, you cannot force somebody to trust you. Trust has to be given to you. And so you can do all of the things that you want, but they still have to give you that trust every day. And I think as a new leader, we think, okay, well then I'm just gonna continue to...

act with integrity, I'll be honest, hopefully, I'll be doing all responsible and I'll be accountable. Yes, all that develops trust, but it doesn't ever stop. And so we have to learn that you that becomes a part of who you are. Are you a person of integrity? Are you a person who's responsible? Are you a person? So how do you develop those habits that will allow people to give you their trust? I also think when we're working with leaders, it's

Trust beyond just who your team below you who are giving you that trust and they were saying that. But can the organization trust you to have the organization's best interests at heart? And I think when we step into leadership, sometimes we've either haven't had opportunity to develop that or have forgotten that it's not really all about, yes, we're used to, if you've been in a, not always schools, but sometimes a middle management role or assistant principal and you have your teams around you, yes, we want them to trust.

Dr. Joy Karavedas (24:07.97)

But what about the people above you? What about the people outside of your organization? Are you trustworthy to the organization's mission and vision? And what does that look like? So there are lot of different elements of this concept of trust that I go through in the book and talk about what that really looks like from all angles. And then the authenticity piece. So often when new leaders, walk in and they usually have

one of two, the least the ones I've seen, one or two kind of takes on it. They're either, you know, stuck in imposter syndrome of I don't belong here, I can't, and they're not confident because they don't feel that they were, you know, the right person for their job or they don't know, they haven't seen themselves as a leader. I would say if you've been tapped on the shoulder and somebody else saw you as the leader, then you do have something. But they work through that imposter syndrome and

How do you develop confidence and to stand inside your own leadership? The other side I see is those who are on the other end of the spectrum and they're just going to do, I know how to lead and they go off with everything and they may be overconfident or they're trying to emulate the person before them. What I don't see very often is somebody who's comfortable in their own skin as a leader. And that's where I talk about that messy middle. Chance to.

develop who you really are. Who do you show up as? Who are, who do other people, what do they see when you're leading and not just, you know, as a teacher in the classroom, is that different than you are when you're as an assistant principal? You talked about 40 feet, you know, down the hall. How does that change who you are? And so we step into really knowing this is that leadership work that Hicks develops on the insight, really knowing who we are, how we lead, where we're comfortable.

Darrin Peppard (25:51.018)

Yeah.

Dr. Joy Karavedas (26:03.106)

we can step into that with that confidence that comes into, that impacts the way we lead. So I think you put all those things together, you need trust, authenticity and performance all together all the time, and you've got yourself a leader.

Darrin Peppard (26:20.326)

Absolutely. Well, and think, you know, the to stay on the performance piece, and this is why I think the other two are so important. This is why this really resonated with me in your book is we do tend to look just at the, you know, the performance, the performance boy, you know, what a great teacher, what a great salesperson, what a great, you know, construction engineer, whatever, right. But that and then moving to a leadership role.

the skill set doesn't transfer. They are very rarely are the same set of skills going from, you know.

being great in having that incredible performance in the role that you had and now leading people. They're not the same role. That's why I think the trust and authenticity piece along with, obviously you want somebody who's a good, has done that, has really demonstrated great performance in there. all very, very solid pieces there. As I mentioned, our time is just flying by. So I'm so glad we had an opportunity to get to that. I got like seven follow-up questions I wanna ask, but I'm not going to do that for the sake of

Dr. Joy Karavedas (27:08.148)

Mm. Right.

Darrin Peppard (27:27.282)

for the sake of our time and for your time too. we're at that point in the show, Joy, you've been on the show before, you know how this works, but the last question I ask everybody is, how are you leaning into leadership right now?

Dr. Joy Karavedas (27:43.308)

I'm gonna use, as I've told you, yes, I have a new book and yes, I work with leaders all the time, but I also have a regular full-time day job. And I'm leaning into leadership because I've recently taken a step into a role that was probably, although it's one I somewhat volunteered for, it's probably not the role that I was really as comfortable as I thought I would. And it's leading some...

strategy changes in my organization, leading some structural changes in the organization, which I've done. But then when you're working this and doing this in an area that may or may not be the one that you feel like you have the most information on, I'll get a little, that sounds very vague, but education's changing, innovation, AI, online, hybrid school, all of the different things that we're doing now. I'm stepping into that world of

what is the future of education? And I haven't quite figured it all out to know what the future of education is. I know a lot of, a little bit about a lot of things. And so now I'm trying to kind of really kind of deep dive and help my school kind of figure out what that future is for them. And yes, here's where the future might be going, but what fits with our mission, our vision, our culture, and really kind of.

Darrin Peppard (28:45.427)

Yeah.

Dr. Joy Karavedas (29:05.56)

taking a deeper dive into that. And that's taken me into a lot of leadership roles in places that I wasn't sure that I was gonna be going right away. So that's my leaning into leadership.

Darrin Peppard (29:12.809)

That's all right. There you go, I love that. Just continuing to learn and find new opportunities to lead. I think that's fantastic. So, Joy, people are gonna want to check out the book. They're gonna wanna get in contact with you. What are the best ways for them to find you?

Dr. Joy Karavedas (29:27.394)

My best way is probably through my website at drkaravitas.com. There is a link to the book there. You can also get the book on Amazon. Through the website, if we want to just touch their base, is a link. It says a 30-minute consultation, but I'll talk to you for as long as we need. can talk if you just want to explore some different ideas, go through a few questions that you may have. But that's probably the best way, drkaravitas.com.

Darrin Peppard (29:55.013)

Excellent, we'll make sure there is a link in the show notes for that so everybody can get in touch with you. Joy, thank you again for joining us here on Leaning into Leadership. This has been a blast. It's been great to catch back up with you.

Dr. Joy Karavedas (30:05.952)

It's always a pleasure. Thank you.

Okay, folks, great conversation there with Dr. Joy Caravides. Really appreciate her coming back on the show.

and make sure you get down to the show notes, hit the links there, check out Joy's notebook, it's absolutely fantastic. Again, I greatly appreciate her coming here on the show. And now it's time for a pep talk. Today's pep talk, I wanna build off of what Joy just shared. I think there's so much to be said for building that leadership pipeline. I think there's so much to be said for that moral imperative that we as leaders have, which is to grow the next generation of leaders.

So I want to challenge you, over the next few weeks, I want you to create a document or open something up in your phone if you do a notes app or something like that or wherever it is that you keep notes. I want you to create a new page and I want you to just simply start making a list. Who are the people in my organization that have leadership potential that I have yet to tap on the shoulder? And then I want you to think about

What might be a way that you can go and have that tap on the shoulder with them? How can you go have that conversation? I mentioned it during the show when Betsy Parker tapped me on the shoulder, Joy talked about her tap on the shoulder moment. We've had countless people here on the show talk about theirs. So pay it forward. Figure out how can you go and tap a few people on the shoulder and start building your leadership pipeline even more than you already are.

Hey, that's what I've got for you this week, folks. Thank you so much for joining me here on Leaning Into Leadership podcast. As always, make sure you rate, review, and subscribe. Share this episode with somebody else who you think is going to benefit from this show. Again, every time you do those things, that's what drives the algorithm. That's what gets more people listening to the show and having an opportunity to get connected with all of us here at the Leaning Into Leadership podcast. Get out there, folks. Have a road to awesome week.