Episode 304: The Leadership Riddle - Growing Without Losing Yourself with Dr. Christopher Jones

Darrin Peppard (00:00)

All right, everybody, welcome back into the Leaning Into Leadership Podcast. This is episode 304. I'm going to start with a question. When was the last time you closed your office door and gave yourself permission to think? I'm talking about putting time on your calendar to step back, reflect, and consider where you're leading your school and whether the things keeping you busy are actually moving that work forward. My guest on the show today.

Dr. Christopher Jones shares a conversation with a principal who told him that she hadn't had an hour to herself to just think in three years. Three years. And I know there are leaders listening right now who understand exactly how that happens. Chris first joined me way back on episode 42. And today he's back with a new book, The Leadership Riddle, a leader's guide to growing.

without losing yourself. And we dig into some questions every leader needs to consider. Are we still learning? Or have we gotten comfortable? How do we respond when criticism gets personal? And what happens to our own leadership when we take responsibility for helping someone else grow? Before we get into today's conversation, I want to thank my friends at the Curriculum Leadership Institute, or CLI.

Now I've worked with CLI twice in my career, once as a principal and again as a superintendent. Both roles I appreciated having a partner who helped us work through curriculum alignment, standards, and cycle planning in a way that brought clarity to the work. As leaders, we ask a lot of our teachers. One of our responsibilities is to create the conditions for them to be successful. That includes clarity.

About what students need to learn and how the curriculum supports that learning. CLI works alongside your district to develop an integrated curriculum system tailored to your needs. And they stay with you through the implementation. You're building a relationship with a partner who understands that the work is going to take time, attention, and follow-through. If your district is ready to bring greater clarity and alignment to teaching and learning, connect

with Curriculum Leadership Institute. Mention leaning into leadership to receive a 5% discount on your first year working with CLI.

To find out more, go to CLIWeb.org. I also want to thank our friends at Hey Tutor for their continued support of the Leaning Into Leadership podcast. As school leaders, we spend a lot of time thinking about how to help every student be successful.

We also know that some students need additional time, attention, and targeted support alongside the instruction happening in their classrooms.

Hey Tutor partners with schools and districts to provide high-impact in-person tutoring in literacy and mathematics. That means students receive focused support from someone who is there with them, helping them through challenges and to continue building their skills. For me, this connects directly to

To our responsibility as leaders to create the conditions where students and adults can do their best work. When we identify a learning need, our next question has to be: what support are we putting in place to address it?

If you're exploring additional literacy and mathematics support for students in your school or district, take a look at Heytutor. Visit Heytutor.com to learn more about their in-person tutoring and how they can partner with your team.

Or even better yet, go down in the show notes and hit the link to take you to Hey Tutor. That'll let them know you heard about them here on the Leaning Into Leadership Podcast. All right, let's get into this conversation. Here is my friend Dr. Christopher Jones back on the Leaning Into Leadership Podcast. I'll see you on the other side.

Darrin Peppard (00:00)

All right, everybody, welcome back in to the Leaning Into Leadership Podcast. Joining me in studio today, Dr. Christopher Jones. Chris, how are you, my friend?

Christopher Jones (00:10)

I am fantastic, Darren, especially seeing that I get a chance to talk to you on this podcast. I really appreciate you taking the time and having me on.

Darrin Peppard (00:18)

Of course, man. Way to way to butter up the host of the show right off the bat. I

Christopher Jones (00:21)

Yeah. Yeah.

Darrin Peppard (00:22)

love that. So Chris, not a stranger to the Leaning Into Leadership Podcast. Way back, we just were looking it up here. You were on episode 42 of the Leaning

Christopher Jones (00:34)

Yeah.

Darrin Peppard (00:34)

Into Leadership Podcast, like four years ago, pretty much, as this one is coming out. but some new things happening.

In in the interim, we're we're gonna talk about your new book here in in a few minutes, but let's start with orient the audience really quick. Who is Chris Jones? And then we'll kind of go from there.

Christopher Jones (00:57)

Sure. So I am a principal at a regional high school. I have been for quite some time. I've been in administration for 19 years now. I've been in education for 26, almost 27 years now. I, you know, when we ask who we are, my job is clearly not who I am. I have a lot of different interests, but you can usually find me on social media highlighting what I call Team Jones.

and Team Jones is my family. We affectionate refer to ourselves as a team. and so we are all living and learning. And I in the meantime, while trying to do all this, I've written another book that we're gonna talk about. But I really enjoy the principalship because of all the different things that

it adds to my life and and how it keeps me busy. It's something new all the time, as we were just kind of talking about quickly in the in the pre-show there. But I think that, you know, with everything it adds, it really is hard for me to say, yeah, this is new, this is new, this is new because it's something different every day and it's so many things. So just the idea that I

Darrin Peppard (02:12)

Yeah.

Christopher Jones (02:12)

I'm leading in education and I'm I'm always looking to grow in that endeavor.

Darrin Peppard (02:18)

Yeah, for sure. So knowing that you've been an administrator for nineteen years, I'm gonna ask you a question, but but then this is probably gonna lead us into what we want to talk about anyway. But it this one just kind of crossed my mind. I think for the first time I asked this question actually on episode three hundred, when we did the the three hundredth celebration, I asked all six of the folks who were on the show what they have learned about themselves as a leader in a in a fairly recent period of time.

No, yes, you and I were talking pre-show, some of the bizarre things that have begun your school year, which there's again something in the water everywhere I go, everybody I talk to that's been a bizarre start to the school year. Whether you want to talk about like from just the beginning of this year or maybe reflect on the last few years, maybe since since you released your book, Seeing to Lead, I I don't know. You pick a window of time, but Chris, what's something you are learning about yourself as a leader?

And again, I think this is gonna lead us into where we're going.

Christopher Jones (03:19)

Absolutely. You know, I I have learned about myself that I have the ability to hold on to my core values while still adapting to my environment because the environment is continually changing. Anybody that's in education knows that. and it's not the idea of sitting around saying, this generation of kids. it's the ability to adapt to the newness.

Of what we're encountering every day. And especially in leadership, what I've learned about myself is that it does take reflection. And I have to embrace some of the some of the core ideas that things are changing. So things that are new to me may not be new to other people. And so I have to continually make sure that I am reflecting and learning and trying to improve on what I'm doing so I can better serve those around me.

I think I'd like to say, right? if nobody else here is judging me, I'd like to say that I've I've become very adept at that. I've I've overcome some hardships in the past five years. that, you know, at times were very difficult for me. And some of that I I actually share some of that in the book. But I've discovered I'm I can build my resilience or I can be very resilient.

in the face of change if I'm open to embracing the change and being very transparent and authentic with myself and who I am, where I am, and where I hope to be.

Darrin Peppard (05:01)

I really love that answer because there's so much self-reflection in that. It it's a big part of why I like asking that question of leaders, because the really good leaders, the great leaders are so good at being self-reflective. You know, when we we first start our leadership career, I know I'm guilty of this, we think, you know, I've arrived, or you know, hey, they're gonna listen to me because the system principal is on my door, or no, they're not, by

Christopher Jones (05:29)

Yeah, yeah.

Darrin Peppard (05:30)

the way.

All of those kinds of things. But but as time goes along, one of the biggest things that you learn as a leader is first and foremost, I don't know all the answers. And and two,

Christopher Jones (05:41)

Right.

Darrin Peppard (05:42)

if I'm willing to look myself in the mirror, I know actually in your new book you talk about this, the just the actual the mirror piece and and being self-reflective and and there's so many other parts to it, but I think that's something that leaders who have been at it for a while and who really do

become quite adept and quite proficient, dare I say, excellent at being a leader, it's because they're self reflective. So I I'm I'm gonna let you chase that for a second and then I got another direction I wanna go.

Christopher Jones (06:13)

It

yeah, no, that's fine. And I I love the word that you used because that actually follows the direction of the book or the whole core idea of the book, the idea of, hey, I'm I'm really running right now, or you know what, I really don't know what I don't know. And so I'm I'm brand new to this and I have a lot to learn. But oftentimes, you know, we get excited about it and so we take off and we really need to kind of be shaken into place to realize the thing that

We we don't necessarily know what we're doing. And so we have to step back and look at that. But then we also have to be careful that when we say, hey, I've got it and I'm running now, that we don't become complacent and mistake momentum for progress. So I I really like the way you put those when you when you said that. But reflection is such a key part of any type of leadership.

Darrin Peppard (07:06)

Absolutely. Well, and I know you've you've structured this this new book, The Leadership Riddle, a leader's guide to growing without losing yourself, very much in that career arc type of of design where, you know, we begin, you know, essentially I think the way you phrase it in the book is you start with a crawl and then you get to a point where, you know, you're you're truly walking, you're truly proficient, and then

Then maybe you start walking with a cane. But before you go in that direction, I know there's kind of an origin story behind how this book all came together. I'd love to have you tell that story and then we can go into some different pieces and so forth, but let let's start

Christopher Jones (07:52)

Sure.

Darrin Peppard (07:53)

there.

Christopher Jones (07:53)

Sure. So, you know, the the story started with a story and I I give personal stories throughout the whole book, but it really started with a story of me giving a theory that I had about life, basically, and trying to move through life and be successful. So I'm standing outside of a courtroom and the kid comes outside of the courtroom after me, and I you I'm I'm an assistant principal, I'm I'm a fairly new assistant principal. or

And I I'm the one that's brought the student to court for truancy, the kids not coming to school. So I I stopped him to talk to him because the judge has the judge has tried to talk to him now and straighten him out. And I I stopped him and I talked to him and I I talked to him about another individual who wasn't so fond of school himself until later in life when he came to to really like it. And of course that was me I was talking about. But I told him, I said, Look, what you need to do is

Life is about a series of doors. So when when we're born or we come into life, no matter what our context is, we have a series of doors in front of us. And a lot of them are open to us that we just have to walk through. And as we move through life, we close a lot of doors based on the decisions that we make. And that's not necessarily a good thing or a bad thing. It's just the way life is. because by selecting something and you you hear this

all the time in leadership jargon, you know, saying saying yes to something, saying no to something else. Well, in the in this idea of opening and closing doors, that's what's happening. and so as you move forward, certain doors close forever while others open up. And the key to this is to keep as many doors open for you as possible throughout life as you go through life. And so, you know, I gave him this speech, I poured my heart out to this kid.

And he walked off. And you ready for the Hallmark moment? You know, where he says, yes. And his life turns around, he goes to school. It didn't work. He he still didn't come to school. But I I did have somebody come up to me and say, another guy that was there to go in front of the judge. but he came up to me and he said, Man, where the hell were you when I was in high school? And I just looked at him, I said, Well, what are you talking about? He So what are you, what are you, a guidance counselor or something? I No, I'm an assistant principal. And he and he took a step back and he said, Assistant principal.

You're the one that's supposed to get people in trouble, not try and help them out. And that that really kind of stuck with me. And I really started to think about how we move through life and how we get students to move through life and get people that we work with to move through life in a way that sets them up for the best chance at success. Because things happen and we get disrailed. But if we always have a chance to reinvent ourselves, we can fast forward that.

To a bunch of different topics that I, you know, maybe agreed with, disagreed with, or had discussions or maybe even some arguments about. and I had all kinds of notes on these and I could see how my thinking had changed throughout time. And I'm looking at them, thinking there's gotta be a through line somewhere. And as I looked at the changes, the this the riddle of the Sphinx came to mind.

and the answer to the riddle and how simple yet complicated it was. Now I'll take a breath here because I can get to talking too much that if you wanted to say anything, go ahead, but if you want, I can continue with the riddle.

Darrin Peppard (11:26)

No, keep going with the riddle. I I'm loving this this this through line here.

Christopher Jones (11:32)

So the riddle of the Sphinx, and it's an ancient riddle where you had to answer it, or you know, you were you forfeit your life to the to the Sphinx, you weren't able to pass. But the riddle of the Sphinx says what what speaks with but one voice is four footed, two footed, and three footed. And so that's closest to the original context of it. The easier one is what speaks with but one voice walks on four feet in the morning, two feet in the afternoon.

And three feet in the evening. And the answer is man. We're an infant and we're crawling in the morning. And then we reach middle age and we're walking on two legs. And then in the end days that we have, we're using a cane, we're leaning on a cane for support. And I thought about that. And to be able to answer that, to be able to meet the sphinx, answer that riddle, you really had to be reflective enough to realize that it was about.

Man, and to realize that it was you. And so I said, well, maybe what if the Sphinx was giving that riddle, but was also giving one of the best leadership career lessons available to us? Because we have to be cognizant of the idea that it's about us and it's about our development and reflecting to be able to answer that. So

So when we do that and we talk about that, when we start as leaders, we're crawling. When we're in the midst of our leadership, we say, I've got this now, we're running along. And when we get to the end of our leadership, it's about legacy. And so I think back to myself, when I was first principal, I remember sitting in the interview chair saying, I and you know that you get the question, why now? Why this role? And I was so excited and fired up.

I was like, because I want to make the decisions, because I got ideas and we're going to get them done. And then I ran into leadership as that as a child in that infancy. And I just I just fell apart. I didn't I didn't know. I made mistakes all over the place. I didn't know what I didn't know. So I right right. And then

Darrin Peppard (13:44)

Yeah. yeah. Yeah. I just had like six run across my mind right now. Yeah.

Christopher Jones (13:52)

when we get into middle leadership, right? We're on two legs. Boy, we've got the hang of this thing now. We're running along. But

Then what we end up doing is because we have it systematized, so to speak, we end up getting complacent and not making that progress. And we we mistake momentum for continued success. And then at the end, a lot of times people think of that cane as weakness, needing support. But I I view it more as getting to the end and realizing that yes.

Support is incredibly important to us because isolation is one of the biggest factors in whether a leader makes it or not, and not not staying in isolation, but also offering support to others. and so as I thought about that, I thought about these topics and I was like, I I can see myself in every part of these. More importantly, I can see other leaders in in parts of these. But then, even more importantly, is the idea that all too often, as leaders.

We try to skip the infancy stage. We try to skip the middle stage because we don't want to say, I don't know that. We don't want to say, I need to get better at that. We want to try and whether you call it fake it till you make it, whether we look at somebody go, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Meanwhile, inside we're going, I gotta figure out what the heck they're talking about as soon as I get the chance. the danger is skipping those stages because then we don't fully develop and become a successful, impactful leader as possible.

Darrin Peppard (15:26)

Don't you think some of that too comes from some outside pressures? I'm sure you've heard this phrase before. school leadership is one of the only jobs where you're expected to be perfect on day one and only get better. I've certainly heard that one a whole bunch of times.

Christopher Jones (15:43)

yeah.

Darrin Peppard (15:45)

And certainly you know, the way you talk, I I'm 100% with you. So much of that is internal pressure.

You know, it's something I I talk about frequently with why we fall into the cycle of chaos is one of the big reasons is we wanna either prove people wrong or prove people right. And some of that is I'm gonna prove it to myself that I am worthy of this job, but I'm also gonna prove the superintendent right because he hired he offered me the job, or I'm gonna prove that staff member wrong who said I shouldn't have been the principal or whatever the case may be. But there's those outside pressures too, and and

I'm I'm gonna maybe go in a little bit different direction here, but obviously you've been doing this for quite some time. And you were just telling me before in the pre-show, you've got essentially two new assistant principals with one moving up and and one coming new into the role. I would imagine they are in that crawl stage as well. And outside principals, teachers, students, community.

Usually they're not very patient with that or they're not even mindful of, hey, this is a brand new leader. Let's, again, this is a different direction than I think we originally planned to go, but I'm really curious your thoughts and maybe some steps you're doing with the folks you have that are new to kind of help alleviate that.

Christopher Jones (17:13)

Yeah, I mean it's so what I end up doing is it's almost a mentor coach type role, right? So with the new assistant principal, I I make sure I meet with her on a regular basis to check in, see how she's doing, see what questions she has, and let her know through my discussion and saying, Hey, I made this mistake, I made this mistake. Let her know that we all make mistakes, that you can't be perfect. That's a great phrase, by the way.

the idea of they ex expected to be perfect on day one and get better. but to work with somebody and let them know you're not gonna know this, and that's okay. And there is that internal measure. I just the other day I was speaking to her and I said, you know, one of the interesting things is I said, You looked really confident, like you know everything that was going on, whether or not, and so she's looking at me, I go, whether or not you were screaming.

on the inside or falling apart on the inside. You looked very confident. She was like, and she exhaled like, you knew. You know, so it's it's it

Darrin Peppard (18:21)

That's outstanding. Yeah.

Christopher Jones (18:23)

yeah. It's just the ability to be able to admit that and have people let you admit that.

Darrin Peppard (18:30)

Yeah. No, I love that question. I think that's so good. And and and it and it gets to again, you know, some of the pieces in the book about being self-reflective. You know, you talked about it briefly. but you know, certainly that mirror perspective, and you know you kind of even outlined that a little bit with with your own, you know, your own journey that that you've been working on over the last nineteen years. So so let's do this. Let's maybe pick a couple of pieces that are that are in the book. You've shared a handful with me.

I certainly have some favorites, but I'm gonna let you go here. We'll go dealer's choice. Pick a a chapter, a topic that you feel like, you know, either people really need to hear this one or hey, this one's really gonna give them a good laugh or something along those lines that you'd like to dig into.

Christopher Jones (19:18)

I I was gonna say, you sure you want to go dealer's choice? That's awful trusting of you. Yeah.

Darrin Peppard (19:23)

very trusting, very trusting. Yeah.

Christopher Jones (19:26)

so one of the ones I like because it's a it's a massive myth and it's it's chapter number four. It's Close Your Door. and I kind of like it because it says the opposite of the story I just told you about keeping doors open. But it it really goes after the myth that the best leaders have open door policies. Because

All too often, look, principals are hired, assistant principals are hired to some degree, right? Because they get they get more in the trenches, so to speak, with discipline and the daily operations of things. But you're you're hired to think about education. You're hired to have those educational discussions and drive your school in a direction that it that is more beneficial for the students and the staff to be in. That takes time to think. And

I was standing outside. We had left a meeting and I was standing outside talking to a principal and she was a well-respected principal. She was a principal for like 14 years. and this is before I was a principal for that long. And she just looked tired. And I looked up to her as somebody that I could that I could emulate. And I started talking to her and I asked her if she was okay. And so she starts telling me, you know, she's tired, she's busy, she's got this, she's got that. And so me trying to help.

And you know, still probably walking in the stage and putting my foot in my mouth. I said to her, I said, Well, you know, have have you taken some time to do this, or what are you doing for yourself? and she looked at me, you know, just so matter of fact, she just said, Chris, I haven't had an hour by myself just to think in about three years. And that that really stuck with me because here's somebody that I'm I'm looking up to.

And she's struggling with the idea of constant interruptions. And I think it was Harvard that came out with a study that said when you get interrupted, because there's there's that myth of multitasking, there's no such thing, it's multitask switching. When you get interrupted, it takes you approximately 23 to 26 minutes to get back to the task at hand once you've been interrupted. And if you think about how many times an administrator or a leader is interrupted.

During the course of the day. By 10 a.m., we're done for the day. the idea that we're going to be able to get focused and get something done just because of all the stops and restarts. So I talk about in the book, you need to set time aside for yourself, for thinking time. Label it whatever you want, but it's got to be sacred. You've got to schedule it in like that meeting with that student. It's got to be that important where you don't cancel it or push it off for anything.

And you make it a habit. Now, the way the book is set up, at the end of every chapter, I start every chapter with a personal story to let you know that this look, this and I say right in the beginning of the book, I didn't write this book with all the answers. I wrote this book because this is a book I needed. And so I want people to make sure that they have tools that they need. And so I provide examples of my own experiences. At the end, I put the riddle revealed at the end of every chapter. And I put in the morning, in the afternoon,

in the evening and I put some things you can do while you're crawling. I put some things you can do while you're walking and I put some things you do if you're later on in these stages. So start off and crawl. Schedule once a week, if not twice, but at least once, where you take an hour, 60 minutes to 90 minutes, to think to yourself, to wrap your head around that initiative that you're trying or what you're trying to do to improve and move your school forward.

The walking stage, talk to your leadership team. Get your leadership team to understand the importance of this and get members on your leadership team to start doing the same thing. And then the legacy side, the older side, when you're using that cane, it should be something that's talked about and accepted in your school by everybody that there is time needed to just stop and think. I kind of tease at this a little bit with my faculty. My faculty knows.

That they are never expected to answer or even read an email over the weekend because they need that time to be on their own. I I really try to stay away from anything on their prep periods because they need that time if they're going to perform well. Now it's funny because my wife's a teacher and she said, Well, that must be nice that you get to close your door. I need somebody to cover my room just so I can run down the hall to the bathroom for five minutes.

So we had quite the animated discussion. So I actually include tools in there to communicate with your staff while you're doing it because the idea that you're stopping and thinking makes you a better leader for them. So they actually benefit from your ability to do that. But that's that's one of the chapters. And they're all set up like that.

Darrin Peppard (24:31)

I love that. And I'm gonna I'm gonna press on you a little bit and and try and get one more out of you. But I I'm still gonna make this dealer's choice, but I'm only gonna give you two cards. So you got to choose between these two. Because

Christopher Jones (24:44)

Fair enough.

Darrin Peppard (24:45)

when we when we talked before, these were ones that that really, really hit me. And I I love that you go at the truly the myth of this open door policy thing, because realistically as a leader, you will get nothing done.

You will live in the cycle of chaos forever if you live by this open door policy. It's just the way that it's going to go. So I'm gonna go, I'm gonna give you two, and then I want you to talk about either of the two. You get to pick. One, it's not personal, unless it is. And two, the dance of the lemons.

Christopher Jones (25:24)

man, they're two well they're all my favorites, right? But they're those are two that

Darrin Peppard (25:28)

Ha ha.

Christopher Jones (25:29)

I really like. And I it's funny that you worded it that way because if you told me to go dealer's choice, I was gonna ask you to pick a couple. I was gonna give you a couple titles and have you pick.

Darrin Peppard (25:37)

Yeah, and I would have gone with these two. And and actually I really liked the the closed door thing too. Also really, really important.

Christopher Jones (25:44)

Yeah.

So I'll tell you what, I'll go with I'll go with it isn't personal unless it is, because it's so easy to take things personally. and I start this off with a story about a card I got when I was leaving one school to go to another one. and it's it's it's a personal story about when I announced it to the faculty, it had a it had much more of an impact than I thought it would, where I had faculty members that were upset.

That I was leaving. And I was sitting in my office, you know, going through the motions, knowing that the time was coming, that I was gonna leave. And my my my admin assistant brought in a card to me and she said, I I'm I'm sure you're gonna get plenty of these, and gave me a card. And so I I looked at where the card was from. It was mailed from somewhere, somewhere else. So I was like, that's that's odd. I pulled the car out and I read it, and it said, you know.

it it started off with some some words and as I'm reading it down it said good riddance on it and it it was a very nasty

Darrin Peppard (26:52)

Ha ha ha.

Christopher Jones (26:53)

card talking about how they hated me. So so my first right right right and they took the time

Darrin Peppard (27:00)

Yeah. At least they took the time to, you know, let you know.

Christopher Jones (27:06)

to mail it from a different postal area so I couldn't figure out who it was

Darrin Peppard (27:09)

It's hilarious.

Christopher Jones (27:10)

but

And and just me saying that shows my reaction to it, right? It wasn't a thoughtful response. It was a reaction. I was like, well, I'm gonna find out who did that. And it I and Darren, this is so bad. I even thought about writing thank you on the bulletin board outside my office and pinning the card to the bulletin board so everybody could see it next to the sign in sheet. I didn't do any of that, but I was so offended by that.

But that happens, right? We have students that say things to us. We have parents that say things to us. We have teachers that say things to us. And with social media, it can be very bad and it can really beat a leader down. So what I do in the book is I again open with that, I open with that story that I just gave you a reader's digest version of. But what I what I talk about is the idea of when somebody personally attacks you.

I give you some tools to walk through it and to think about it and to actually quantify that because it's funny. And Danny Bauer gave me this saying because he started it with me. He said, I make critics into cheerleaders. And for some reason, I push into and lean into negativity with positivity because I just, for whatever reason, I feel like that's something I need to do. But some of the things I tell you is okay, you gotta consider the source, right?

Where is this coming from and why could it possibly be that way? So I I look to understand where it's coming from, where that criticism is coming from. And then I look to see of what kind of criticism is it? Is it a one-off? Is it just like something that came out? Or is it a data point because I'm getting so I'm getting numerous criticism around that one area. oftentimes criticism that we take personally.

Or we get defensive. When we do that, it stops us from using it to improve. And oftentimes, criticism comes from a place where somebody's clearly upset about something. So it's either a misunderstanding on their part if we're right, or it's giving us a window into something that we need to correct because we haven't clearly communicated it, we haven't clearly executed it, and we need to improve where we're coming from. So I give those.

Filters that you run it through to make sure that before you get you actually think about what if they're right and and how much of this is right. Not my God, I'm a bad person. Just what part of this could be true that I need to then adjust? And that will keep us from falling apart and being defensive and getting stagnant. See this whole

This whole book is about examining these topics that are never black and white. There's a whole lot of gray, but it's about improving within each of these areas so that we can continue to get better and succeed for those around us by using the different tools that I offer. And and the idea of it isn't personal unless it is. It's funny because as I was writing this book, my sister, who's not in education or anything,

she was reading through the title. She's like, read this one to me. And it was, it isn't personal unless it is, because she gets, and when she listens to this, she'll probably I'll probably get a phone call saying, How dare you say this? But she gets, she takes things very personally and she gets very fired up. And if you think about what it takes to lead through crisis, to lead in difficult times, you can't be fired up and emotional. You can be a little bit on the inside, but you really have to step back and look at things for what they are so that you can be clear.

And make proper decisions. That's that's where leadership is.

Darrin Peppard (31:07)

Spoken like a very self-reflective leader, which kind of circles us back to what we talked about at the very beginning. which takes us back to what we talked about at the very beginning. Such good stuff today. Chris, our time has absolutely flown by. So we're at that point in the show. I'm gonna ask you the same question to ask everybody here on the Leaning Into Leadership podcast. What are you doing, Dr. Chris Jones, to lean into leadership right now?

Christopher Jones (31:35)

I am coaching and mentoring two new assistant principals. and the reason I see that as leaning into leadership is again, something again, it's going through these stages of crawling, walking, and leading with legacy. there's nothing better to help a teacher, especially a good teacher, improve than to take on a student teacher, simply for the fact.

And not to circle back to the reflection piece that you keep talking about, but simply for the fact they have to reflect on why they do the things they do. We can go through life on autopilot so many times because if we get successful at something, it's it's almost a rinse and repeat. But by working with these two individuals who are two unique people and different in their own respect with their different strengths and areas for growth, that I have to think about why I do the things I do.

And I have to justify that with myself while I'm teaching somebody else. So it's a deep reexamination of my practices. And so by doing that, I can really look at what I'm doing that works, what I'm doing that needs to improve, and how I can better serve people by serving these two individuals.

Darrin Peppard (32:53)

Love it, man. That's outstanding stuff. People, if they're not already connected to you, they're going to want to be connected. They're going to want to grab a copy of the book. We'll make sure we have a link down there in the show notes for that. But what's the best way for people to get in touch with you?

Christopher Jones (33:06)

Sure. I don't have a website or anything like that, but I do have I'm on Instagram a lot, and that's at Dr. C S Jones. So D R C S Jones. And my Gmail is the same except it's Dr. Chris SJ at Gmail. So I answer emails as long as you put something in the subject that makes me think it's not spam. And if you reach out to me on social, I get

back in touch with you and I also have a sub stack that I started. Now the interesting thing about the Substack, one, I would say hit the Amazon link, but two, if you check out that Substack, I'm now discussing parts of the leadership riddle in live time. So people that ask questions, I'm putting pieces out and expanding on different chapters and different concepts within the book. this is really something I want

people to be able to use and refer to to help improve themselves and those around them.

Darrin Peppard (34:08)

Outstanding. We'll make sure we have links to all of that stuff down in the show notes so people can get in touch with you. Chris, man, I'm glad we got a chance to circle back. Let's maybe not wait four years between episodes before

Christopher Jones (34:18)

Yeah. Yeah.

Darrin Peppard (34:21)

we bring you back on to leaning into leadership. Man, thanks so much for joining me here on the show.

Christopher Jones (34:25)

thank you. I really appreciate it.

Man, that was so much fun having a chance to sit down with Chris once again. Been quite some time since he and I had jumped on the podcast together.

Really excited about his new book. It is out now. Go hit the link down in the show notes and go and grab a copy of Chris's new book, The Leadership Riddle. And now it's time for a pep talk. Okay, leaders, let's get real. It's the middle of October. Now, flashback for me. Sometime in July or August, you put together some incredible plans. You probably submitted a school improvement plan. You probably also worked on some things specific to your building for professional development.

Or things even that you wanted to focus on professionally to continue to grow as a leader. But now it's the middle of October. And we know by this point in the year, all kinds of crazy things have happened and you've gotten really deep into the weeds. You're dealing with fires on a daily basis, you're working with personnel issues, you're working with parent issues. And by the way, you made that plan back in July or August.

The pep talk today is simply to challenge you to take a break, take a step back and get up on the balcony. Give yourself the opportunity to lay those priorities back out and ask yourself, what evidence do I have right now that shows the work that I've been doing in those specific areas in that particular plant? Now, don't be too harsh on yourself if you've gotten a little too deep into the weeds and you haven't made the progress you want to make.

The whole purpose of this pep talk is to remind you that it's important to take that step back, to get up on the balcony and remind yourself this is the work we know is important. Yes, you're gonna have the day-to-day fires. That's a part of the work. But here's what I'd like to ask you to do: put some time on your calendar each of the next four weeks. It doesn't need to be a lot. Maybe it's just 10 minutes or 15 minutes.

similar to what Dr. Chris Jones and I just talked about here on the podcast. Block that time to come back and focus on something specific that's in that plan. So the next time you ask yourself, what evidence do I have, you've got some legitimate evidence, some proof that you're making progress, not only putting out fires and managing the day-to-day, but genuinely moving your plan forward.

Hey, that's what I've got for you this week, folks. Thank you so much for joining me here on the Leaning Into Leadership Podcast. As always, rate, review, and subscribe. Share this episode with someone else who might enjoy leaning into leadership. Folks, those things really truly matter. When I see the reviews, when when I hear somebody else has has started listening to the podcast because it was recommended by one of you, that really means a lot to me and

It gives us the opportunity to impact that many more leaders. Get out there. Have a road awesome week.