Episode 309: Empowering Student Leaders with Frank Pugliese

Darrin Peppard (00:00)

All right, my friends, welcome back into the Leaning Into Leadership Podcast. This is episode 309. And today I've got a special conversation to share with you. See, this episode is a little bit different because it's not one that I recorded remotely. I actually recorded this sitting down with my friend Frank Polyese, the principal of Shoreham Waiting River High School on Long Island, New York. You see,

I spent a couple of days here just a few weeks ago in Shoreham working alongside my good friend Dr. Brandon Beck. And we had the opportunity to spend one day working with student leaders from both the high school and the middle school. And then I spent a day working with the instructional staff around really focusing on exceptional classroom culture, engagement, and

Making sure that our students have ample opportunities to respond. And I've got to tell you, the experience itself with the students, that's what I really want to focus on today, was something very special. We had about 60 high school students together in one room talking about leadership, talking about their school, talking about their experiences, and the things that they would change and that they would love to help create. And

Here's what I found so interesting. These weren't just the kids who already had leadership titles. Frank and his team intentionally invited students who might not yet recognize the leadership potential that others see in them. That's a powerful leadership decision right there. It was an opportunity for Frank and his team to essentially tap some of those kids on the shoulder for leadership.

And in today's conversation, Frank and I talk about what it means to lead a high school in today's world. We talk about the challenges that students face that previous generations didn't necessarily have to face, and why relationships still matter more than just about anything else that we do. We really dig into something that I think every school leader needs to consider.

Are we actually empowering student voice or are we simply creating opportunities for students to talk? Because those are two very different things. And Frank shares some specific ways he's planning to take the ideas generated by his students and turn them into some meaningful action. Now there's a lot here for principals, district leaders, and frankly anyone responsible for developing the next generation of leaders. Before

we jump into the conversation. Let me take a moment or two to thank two partners who help make leaning into leadership possible each and every week. Grade schools don't happen by accident. They're built through intentional leadership, clear expectations, and systems that support exceptional teaching and learning. That's exactly why I'm proud to partner with the Curriculum Leadership Institute, or CLI.

I've personally worked with CLI twice during my career, once as a building principal, and then again as a superintendent. And I know firsthand the difference that intentional curriculum leadership can make. CLI partners with districts to help them develop strong curriculum systems, create greater alignment across classrooms, and build the leadership capacity necessary to sustain meaningful improvement.

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that'll let them know you heard about here on the Leaning Into Leadership Podcast.

All right, let's get into today's conversation. We're talking student voice relationships and what it really means to develop leaders with my friend Frank Polyese, the principal of Shoreham Waiting River High School, hanging with me here on the Leaning Into Leadership podcast. I'll see you on the other side.

Darrin Peppard (00:00)

All right, everybody. really excited about this episode. I'm recording in person. my friend Frank Puliesi here in Shoreham, Waiting River, New York. Frank, thanks for sitting down and having a conversation with me. Yeah,

Frank Pugliese (00:11)

Hey, I appreciate it, Darren. Thank you.

Darrin Peppard (00:13)

of course. So again, I'm I'm I'm here in Shoreham and have been for the last couple of days. Yesterday, had the opportunity to partner with my friend Dr. Brandon Beck.

to work with student leaders both here at Shorem Waiting River High School, but then also at the middle school we got to work with some student leaders. but before we talk about all of those kinds of things and just wherever our conversation takes us, Frank, share just a little bit with our listeners about who you are, what you do, that kind of thing.

Frank Pugliese (00:41)

Sure, sure. tenth year as principal here at Chorum Waiting River High School. prior to that I was a assistant principal in Half Hollow Hills School District, a little to the west. my teaching career actually started me in little little town in central Virginia, Goochland County, where I kinda cut my teeth. you know, very different from from here, New Yorker by birth.

you know, went went to school upstate, landed in Virginia for a little while and then about seven years later ended back up in New York and entering my thirtieth year in education this year. So it's been a journey.

Darrin Peppard (01:13)

Yeah, for sure. Yeah. Ten years as a high school principal, I mean, you've certainly experienced a lot of different things in this last ten years, right? You

Frank Pugliese (01:20)

yeah.

Darrin Peppard (01:20)

know, I mean, even setting the whole COVID experience aside. and it's been th that that's an interesting number actually. So it's been about ten years since I left the high school principalship. Okay. You then I was a superintendent and of course, you know, sure now I do what I do. let's let's talk about

the role itself maybe during that ten years. What what are maybe some things if you think back when you first started as a high school principal versus now, what are maybe one or two things that are certainly different about the role compared to when you started?

Frank Pugliese (01:51)

Well compliance in in so many different ways. just compliance with, you know, state mandates, state policies, really outside of the area of curriculum and pedagogy. so much time and rightfully so spent on safety and security. So much time now spent on distraction free schools on the cell phone policy.

working with kids and with staff in in a much different way than what we were previously used to. you know, we we spent so much more time previously talking about the nuts and bolts of teaching and learning. And now again, for better and for worse, we've had to spend a lot more time on these other areas. and that's a challenge. It really, it really, really is.

Darrin Peppard (02:32)

Yeah, I'm I'm sure it pulls you in directions that that, you know, you probably wish that you know, you could be focusing on other things. Sure. you know, we we had a great conversation earlier today just with with everything to do with yeah, the distractions for the

Frank Pugliese (02:45)

Sure.

Darrin Peppard (02:45)

legislation that that not just here in New York, I mean it's happened pretty much across across the country where now legislative bodies have followed followed suit of others and said, you know, hey, let's let's find a way to to what they think is is help educators, but it in in many ways and and we're not gonna chase this, but

Frank Pugliese (03:01)

Yeah, yeah.

Darrin Peppard (03:02)

In many ways it actually gives you more to have to run after. So so let's maybe go a different direction with that same question, reflecting on ten years, what are some things that still remain constant in in what you do and how you how you go about the role of being a high school principal?

Frank Pugliese (03:20)

Connecting with kids, connecting with teachers. we're in the people business. you know, if if if you don't if you don't have that innate

kind of natural desire to get to know people, more than just at a cursory level, I think you're in the wrong field. you really have to care. and that's one of the things I was, you know, talking about with with my superintendent the other day that you know one of the things that you're never prepared for or not quite prepared for is the the emotional weight that the job carries with it. if you have any level of empathy at all, you're more than just a boss in a building. You know, you're

you're you're that figure, you're the person, you know you know, you're the dad, you're the grandfather, w however you want to kinda you know, relate that. you know, when when when staff go through challenges, whether it be illness or or things outside of the building, you carry that. You you carry that weight. the same thing with all of your kids and they are your kids. you know, when when I when I interview prospective teachers, when I interview prospective administrators,

If I don't hear that level of commitment in their voice, it doesn't matter how strong they are with curriculum. You have to wanna be here. You have to wanna really serve your constituents, and that's your kids and your family, and then your your staff as well. so I think that's the that's the thing that's always remained consistent. And that that was, you know, it's interesting. We mentioned COVID just a few minutes ago. That was probably the time that

And I think all of my colleagues would probably say this, you know, both in the district and and across the the the country, that was a time when you probably saw the greatest staff morale was when we were all unified. We were all working, you know, with the same goal in mind, and that was just figuring it out. Yeah. And all of the kind of the the petty stuff that's sometimes there, that all went away because our goal was was unified. And the the problem was that.

large and it was something that none of us had ever faced before, we all got behind it. Yeah. And we all made it work. You know, so in some ways you kind of reminisce for the wow, I wish the good old times when you know when when we were just dealing with COVID. But but truly that was a time when when our focus was all very, very much unified. And now it's it's a little different at times.

Darrin Peppard (05:34)

Yeah. Well, I mean certainly we're in a in a much different political climate. Sure. certainly some some challenges that that take place there. I I'm kind of curious, so and again, this isn't necessarily reflecting on on ten years, but I hear periodically, and I'm sure there's tons of videos on Instagram and on TikTok and that kind of stuff where people talk about how kids these days are just so much different.

Frank Pugliese (05:56)

Sure.

Darrin Peppard (05:57)

I don't agree with that statement, but

You're in a building every day, I'm not. Tell me what what do you see in kids now that maybe you didn't see before or maybe that you still see in kids?

Frank Pugliese (06:12)

they are still ultimately kids. I I don't think they've changed that much. I think the world around them has changed significantly and I think that they've been forced to deal with things both directly and indirectly that maybe we didn't have to. you know, their exposure to, you know, the quote unquote real world.

you know, they are they are far more influenced by what other people think, than what we did. I think, you know, we use the example all the time. you know, pre social media, you know, you were kind of in the hot zone

you know, for maybe six, seven hours a day when you were at school. the second you got on the bus or the second you started that walk home, the second you got in your parents' car, you were safe. because you know no one was no one was knocking on your door, you weren't getting a letter in the mail. They weren't calling you on a landline if you were struggling with anything. At least you had that time to decompress, you had that time to to heal at home with your family. these kids now who are in it and are struggling

it's it's it's twenty four seven, three sixty five. They never get a chance to get away from it. So I think that maybe has obviously created more of a challenge for those kids that struggle, that struggle with their own identity, that struggle with their own sense of self and their own sense of belonging, because they're they're constantly measuring themselves against others. Whereas again,

go back thirty, forty, fifty years. you had time to be safe, you had you had time to get away. You could you could figure that out. so I think they are they are under a different level of scrutiny. I also feel like they

they they measure themselves against a different kind of standard as well. when they see what someone else their age is doing, what they're planning, what the what you know, what they've already accomplished, that's hard. Now you you self reflect and go, Wow, I haven't done half of that stuff. and unfortunately you see with with some of the you know the mental health crises that we've seen, it's not just the kid that looks like they're struggling.

It's the kid that's got it all together. It's the it's the college athlete who seemingly has the whole world right at their feet and nobody knows how much they're struggling inside. again with all of these other pieces going on. So I think I think the kids are still the same. They're they're still biologically the same, but the world that's around them has forced them to be older or or trying to be older and more mature.

than than us. We were you know, we were still allowed to be kids. Right. they're judging themselves against a much different standard, you know, both individually what they believe they're supposed to be doing, you know, in interpersonal relationships. We wouldn't even go into that rabbit hole, but again, it's that same kind of thing. It's just like

You know, if I'm not doing X, Y, and Z, if I if I can't produce the same type of, you know, TikTok video or whatever, then then I must have somehow be less. I'm not keeping up with everybody else. And that's tough. It really, really is. I give I give you know a lot of credit to the kids that are able to still just be themselves.

that's something that we're really pretty proud of here, and kind of the kids alluded to is is we've created a lot of different safe spaces for kids to be themselves, to find kids who are very similar, have similar ideas, similar interests, where where they lose some of that pressure. you know, it's one of the nice things of about Shoram for sure.

Darrin Peppard (09:29)

Yeah. Well

and you know, you you kind of alluded to it, so let's maybe talk about that some. So yesterday, along with with Brandon, getting the opportunity to to work about sixty of of the kids here out of the almost six hundred. So ten percent of your student population

Frank Pugliese (09:45)

Yeah.

Darrin Peppard (09:45)

was was here right through those windows. Yeah, for those of you watching on YouTube, right through the windows here in the library. We had we had sixty kids in here and and that's part of why I asked the question, you know, people say, kids these days or whatever and

I'm not with kids every single day, but I got a a a really good opportunity to spend three hours with your kids and then a couple hours at the middle school and they're still kids.

Frank Pugliese (10:06)

They are

Darrin Peppard (10:06)

And

and they're remarkable kids. You have fantastic kids here. yesterday really our focus, our goal was to kind of ignite or or fan the flames of leadership within that group of kids. And what what I'd love to have you maybe talk about, one

How did a kid end up in the room yesterday? Sure. Right. So roughly ten percent of your student population's in the room yesterday. One, how how did those kids get there? And two, when you think about the work that Brandon and I did yesterday, what what were the things that really like I mean, you were in the room pretty much the entire time. Sure. So sure. What was it that that kind of stood out to you like, man, that's

That's something not necessarily that we did, but maybe that you saw your kids take away from it or where they wanna go. I'm taking way too long to set up the question. I'll just stop. Run with it.

Frank Pugliese (10:55)

Yeah.

good. so the the the kids were selected through a a few different a few different ways. we had our

you know, kind of pre-established leadership group, our kids who are our natural helpers, our student government kids, and because we are a small building, there's a lot of crossover there to begin with. we then really made an effort to go outside of just the kids who have already established themselves as leaders, both through how their peers view them and how they view themselves by then asking staff to

Give us some other names. Give us some names of some kids who maybe haven't found their voice yet, who they see some real leadership skills developing in or already have that they just aren't aware of it yet. so that was that was the cross section that we had. It was a nice mix between, you know, grades nine through twelve. what I really wanted them to take away,

And I and I think they did just based on some of the responses I've gotten already, both in person and and some conversations that I've had with kids, is that they do have a voice, that we're here, that we're listening. I certainly appreciated

what both you and Brandon kind of reiterated multiple times is that, you know, not every not every idea can come to fruition for one reason or another. and just because we have to say no to one thing doesn't mean we don't appreciate or or like the idea. there's just obviously we we we work within some parameters sometimes and you know, just because it's a no to begin with doesn't mean it's gonna be a no forever or

you know, we it can't we can't work with it. so I think that was the the big thing that I wanted them to take away from it was that this was more than just a one off. this was more than just checking a box.

You know, as I as I said to the group at the end, you know, the one of the hardest things to do as a professional is to admit that you need help. that you need you need some outside resources, you need a different set of eyes. because with even with your own kids at home, you can you can tell them the same things over and over again. Until they hear it from somebody else, somebody that they don't know, they don't believe it themselves. So I think sitting in the room yesterday, getting the response that they got from from you and Brandon both,

was that their ideas were valid, that they had great thoughts, that they were already leaders. so I think you know, if if from that 60 kids we get a core of 30 or even 40 that want to continue that work to the level that we want to do it, I think that's gonna be fantastic. you know the follow-up steps are gonna be over the course of the next month. Each week I'm gonna do a cross section of the grade levels, bring together a couple nines, a couple tens, a couple 11s, a couple of twelves

into smaller focus groups, debrief on what we had. I'm going to chart everything that we took away from yesterday. you know, really kind of hone in on what the what the focus was was in in terms of their ideas and then sit with them and say, how do we do it? How do we get there? what are the things that we ha can have conversations on? what are some of the things that I know are really kind of non starters. Sorry, no Disney trip. but you know other other than that, I think everything else we've we've got some room.

the cell phone thing of course too. Right. But you know, there there are there are some areas there that we can work on. And I even think even within the cell phone piece, I think we'll dive into that that conversation a little bit more too, is what in particular are you missing from not having access to your phone? Yeah. And what are some possible ways that, you know, we can mitigate some of that. We can't mitigate all of it, but right there might be some things that we can do. Right.

Darrin Peppard (14:14)

And I think I think one of the most important pieces with that, and and I know you guys will discover this, your kids will discover this, is is that they're genuinely being heard. Yes. And and being heard and always getting your way are not the same thing. No. And it's I mean that's a great life lesson for for students to learn as well. I mean adults still sometimes need to learn learn that, right? But that was something that I really appreciated from that yesterday as well. And just you know, I'm I'm reflecting on a handful of conversations.

one-on-ones that I had with some of those kids. And I mean we we talked about one yesterday. I I won't I won't mention her by name.

Frank Pugliese (14:49)

The ninth grader.

Darrin Peppard (14:49)

The

ninth grader that I seriously told Frank, you just get her an office now. Like give her the keys and let her run the show. She's she gets it. Really, really really impressive young lady. But just some of those conversations and just some of the the takeaways there. I think that's exactly what your kids are are really wanting is you know, we want a voice that that doesn't necessarily mean we get everything we're asking for, but that we know you're genuinely gonna hear us.

You've already shared some strategies of how how you'll kind of carry that forward. What might be one or two things that that you and and Dan, your assistant principal, might do, and and maybe even Deb, your your AD, might do going forward with that group to maybe help them get some some simple wins.

Frank Pugliese (15:35)

Yeah, I I I think it it starts with those conversations. It starts with honing in on, you know, what are our key goals? What what's the first thing we want to do? Is it a winter formal? you know, we haven't done one in a while. we had talked about a homecoming dance. Again, we had had one a couple of years ago, we tried again, the numbers weren't there. I I think, you know, this kinda goes back to that earlier conversation about you know, are kids still the same or are they different?

And again, the world around them has changed. We're we're not the only show in town anymore. and that's part of the that's part of the challenge is that, you know, previously you go back twenty, thirty years ago, on a Friday night, you know, what were your options? yeah, I'll go to the I'll go to the dance at the school and you know go out after whatever. But you i th that kind of thing. you know, whereas now there's not even the desire to to go in the first place. and it's the chicken and the egg. It's they wanna do it.

But they want everybody to do it. Well somebody's gotta do it. So we've got to get this ball rolling. And and I think that's going to be our initial challenge is to hone in on that. And then once we have those those one or two things that we know we can get a win on, we throw all of our weight behind it. And and we we push it as hard as we can. you know, there there definitely seem to be real energy behind, you know, a student staff type of, you know, either basketball or something along those lines. And I know there's concerns. I know there's

Darrin Peppard (16:49)

But

Frank Pugliese (16:49)

But

it but I I I still think that again, maybe there's there's some middle ground there. There's something that we could do with that. you know, so I think it's it's it's getting them together to agree upon, you know, even what's the top two, three, four things, and then really making sure that we see it through. because I think you're right. Once they get a win.

then that's gonna just multiply on itself and they're they're gonna see that this was worth it and that it wasn't just an exercise.

Darrin Peppard (17:17)

Yeah. I I just I I love that and I think, you know, this maybe for me one of the big takeaways and and it's something, you know, certainly there I already know and believe in, but just hearing it even more from you, just that empowering the student voice. What an important role for especially in a high school principal role. man, the more you can activate the voice of your kids, it gives them the opportunity to see how how they can go and make change, substantial, meaningful change, not just a

at the school but down the road somewhere out, you know, in in the world that they're gonna be a part of.

Frank Pugliese (17:49)

Well that the the young lady we were just talking about, that's exactly what she said when when talking about, you know, the the the distraction free school law. You know, why are I I believe she's I'm gonna probably g misquote her a little bit, but why are we focusing here when we could be focusing on the legislators who who enacted this in the first place?

you know, the folks in the building and they're just they're just following the law. we can rail against that all we want. We're not gonna accomplish anything. Maybe we need to activate our voice and and go through the process. And that, you know, if if that doesn't, you know, impress you as, you know, coming from a from a ninth grader or even a twelfth grader, just phenomenal. Absolutely phenomenal. Yeah.

Darrin Peppard (18:28)

And the folks that that are listening right now, I mean the the the takeaway there is those kids are in your school too. I mean this this kid is not an alo anomaly. She's remarkable but the

There are so many of those kids in your schools too. So finding the opportunity to to to put kids in a room together, you know, like like we did yesterday, I think is is just such a great way. And you already knew this about her, but you learned even more. and yeah, again, she's one that it took about 15 seconds for me to see that too, like whew, that kid gets it. Yeah. but yeah, the opportunity with so many of the other kids that that were in the room to to hear some of the examples, the thoughts.

thoughts they had and just them being empowered to activate their voice in the room. there wasn't a kid in the room who didn't think, hey, you know, I I'm not a leader. Every kid in the room was, yeah. No. I know why I'm in the room.

Frank Pugliese (19:19)

Yeah, your opening activity really spelled that out. Yeah. it really, really did. And they you know, they they were recognized that pretty quickly. And and and there's a comfort here too. Again, being the size that we are,

you know, kids kids are comfortable sharing their views and their opinions. you know, there were some there were some tough topics that also came up and and those need to be addressed as well. We're not just talking about, you know, dances and and and pep rallies and those kinds of things. Right. and those are just as significant and just as important. you know and that that also, for better or for worse, also comes from the student body. so, you know, there's there's always work to be done, that's for sure.

Darrin Peppard (19:53)

Yeah, those those particular topics too, I mean, those are ones that and I love that those came up. and really without without like talking about specifically the topics, essentially what came up were societal issues. And and it demonstrates and this is true in every high school folks, I don't care how big or small your high school is, your high school is a reflection of your community. Period. And when those things, those those social inadequacies or injustices are are happening.

Yeah.

in your school they're happening in your community. And so the fact that you have kids who are are bring are bringing that up and having that uncomfortable conversation as a whole group and and nobody's pushing back or saying no we don't need the everybody is seeing you're right, we need to do something about those tough topics. that's how those things down the road are going to get solved in the community is is those kids. And that's that's a big takeaway from me with them yesterday. Just again I'm so grateful

I got an opportunity to be in the room just to listen to that and and to be a part of that. You know, that's I'm not with kids every single day. And and that, man, that really filled my bucket yesterday. It really, really did. I'm I'm so excited about that and really excited to see where this goes. So let's do this, Frank. We're at that point in in the show. Sure. our time has just flown by. So

Frank Pugliese (21:08)

yeah.

Darrin Peppard (21:08)

you know what question I'm gonna ask you. It's the Leaning Into Leadership Podcast. So, Frank, how are you leaning into leadership right now?

Frank Pugliese (21:14)

by looking for those opportunities to empower kids. leaders make leaders. I know the quote was up on the board. nothing makes me prouder than seeing kids be successful, seeing kids find, you know, the things that they believe in and and really be able to champion them. and and the same for my staff as well. you know, as a as a

former building leader and a s former superintendent, you know, there's nothing greater than someone who worked under you making that next step, becoming a principal, becoming a a superintendent. you know, if you're not preparing them for that, then what are you doing? So that's that's you know, I've got about four and a half years left, you know, for my career and that's that's really gonna be my focus.

Darrin Peppard (21:51)

I love it. and this has been so much fun. I've I've had a blast the last couple of days. Obviously, you know, been coming back and forth to to shore them since July and and we'll see where it takes us from here. But thanks so much for joining me here on the

Frank Pugliese (22:02)

I appreciate

it. Thanks for asking me. All right. Thank you.

All right, I can't tell you how much I appreciated the opportunity to just sit down with Frank, hit the record button, and just talk about student leadership.

I genuinely enjoyed that conversation so very much, and I'm excited to see where the work goes from this point forward. And now it's time for a pep talk. Today on the pep talk, I want to talk about something that a leader I support shared with me just a couple of days ago. It was an interesting conversation. She talked about how when things get difficult, when we run into those tough situations.

Personnel situations, high levels of student behavior issues, those kinds of things. The things that typically we as leaders can't discuss the outcomes with our staff about. We find ourselves living in a space where there's some uncertainty. And that uncertainty creates a vacuum. We all know what happens when that uncertainty creates the vacuum. It gets filled by whatever it is that people think.

might have actually happened. A lot of times that uncertainty gets filled with blame. It was interesting as we talked about this particular topic. It's something I'm certain that so many leaders are dealing with around the country, not just this one particular leader. But sometimes we get so caught up in managing the situations that we forget about the people around us. And we forget about that the those situations are having impact

On the people around us. And the advice that I gave this particular leader was to lean in and acknowledge that things have been difficult, that things have been hard. And not just acknowledge it as the leader, but with the entire staff present to say, hey, guys, we've really gone through some difficult things. But collectively, we all know that it's been tough on us.

And we know that we can continue to move forward from here. I think as leaders, sometimes we just simply have to be vulnerable and let our people know, hey, this has affected me too. I'm also having a tough time with all these hard things that have come our way. And when we simply name it, when we simply talk about it and be a little bit vulnerable in front of our staff, that allows them to see and remember the human side of those struggles.

It's about the only way to really move forward in a way that there can actually be healing, that that the team can come back together and actually reconnect. So, my challenge for you this week, and I I realize this is a bit of a ramble here on the pep talk today, but if you're dealing with a situation like this, in this particular leader's case, multiple personnel issues.

A change in state rating and also some really high levels of student behavior in the first quarter of their year. Have the conversation with your staff. Name it. Don't be afraid to talk about it. Acknowledge that it exists. Acknowledge that it has absolutely sucked and that it has really been difficult. And then just find a way to simply reconnect.

Spend some time together as a team. Remind the people that they still need each other, you still need them, and they still need you. When we stay connected with the human side of the difficult parts of leadership, that's where we have the opportunity to truly move forward in a successful way. I hope that helps. I hope that makes some sense to you. I hope you've enjoyed this episode of the Leaning Into Leadership Podcast. If you have,

Please rate, review, and subscribe and share this episode with somebody else who might enjoy leaning into leadership. Get out there, folks. Have a rote awesome week.