Nov. 12, 2025

Beyond the Classroom: The Future of Leadership and Entrepreneurship with Dr. Carrie Kisker

Beyond the Classroom: The Future of Leadership and Entrepreneurship with Dr. Carrie Kisker

What if the key to thriving as a leader is embracing adaptability, purpose, and education? This week, we’re joined by Carrie Kisker, President of Kisker Education Consulting and Director of the Center for the Study of Community Colleges, for a rich...

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What if the key to thriving as a leader is embracing adaptability, purpose, and education?

This week, we’re joined by Carrie Kisker, President of Kisker Education Consulting and Director of the Center for the Study of Community Colleges, for a rich conversation on leadership challenges, community college impact, and the future of learning.

Carrie dives into:

  • How community colleges empower students to explore passions affordably and close to home
  • The critical pillars under attack in higher education... academic freedom, institutional autonomy, and civic engagement
  • Strategies for leaders to balance resistance and innovation amid shifting political and social climates
  • The evolving relationship between entrepreneurship and education in career pathways
  • Practical advice for emerging leaders on continuous learning, adaptability, and breaking down silos
  • How exposure to diverse perspectives fuels inclusive, effective leadership

Whether you’re a leader inside education or beyond, this episode will help you reimagine leadership as a dynamic, impact-driven vocation.

Resources Mentioned:
  • Kisker Education Consulting: kiskeredconsulting.com
  • Center for the Study of Community Colleges: centerforcommunitycolleges.org
  • Linkedin: https://www.linkedin.com/in/carriekisker
  • Book: https://www.amazon.com/American-Community-College-Carrie-Kisker-ebook/dp/B0CGKBVWHL?ref_=ast_author_mpb
WEBVTT

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This podcast is a proud member of the Teach Better

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podcast network, Better Today, Better Tomorrow, and the podcast to

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get you there.

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You can find out.

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More at Teechbetter dot com slash podcast.

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The best ideas can often come from unexpected places. I

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have seen innovations adopted in community colleges that came from

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a statement that a custodial worker made saying, I'm noticing

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that a lot of students are eating lunch and drop

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in their trash in this area, and what if we

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maybe beautified it and made this a place for gathering

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in connection and all of these things can support student success.

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Do you want to be a leader in a constantly

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changing world? Our emerging leaders look different, come from various

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backgrounds and from all different age groups.

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Leadership is changing and it's hard to keep up. But

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the good news you can be a leader too.

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You can be an emerging leader. Welcome to the Limitless

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Leadership Lounge, a try generational conversation.

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For emerging leaders.

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Come spend some time with us to discuss leadership from

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three angles. The coach, Jim Johnson, the professor, Doctor Renuma Kareem,

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the host, John Gering, a monthly guest, and you get

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in on the conversation on Facebook and Instagram, and be

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sure to follow us on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, and Speaker.

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So come on in and make yourself comfortable.

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Really excited for our conversation today. I'm the Limitless Leadership

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Lounge with doctor Carrie Kisker and we'll get to her

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in just a moment. First though, I'm John Gerring, Doctor

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Numa Kareema is here and coach Jim Johnson as well.

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This is going to be a fun conversation today, as

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we always do, try generational conversations for you, the emerging leader,

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gaining leadership and personal development insights for you, whether you're

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starting a business, you're a leader in one, or even

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just as a leader in your family or your community. Coach,

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go ahead and introduce our guests today. We're excited to

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dive in.

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Yeah, we had a chance to connect with doctor Kerry

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Kissker and I had a nice conversation. Whether we're really

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excited to have her on our podcast. So let me

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just share a little bio. Doctor Kerrie Kisker is the

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president of Kisker Education Consulting in Los Angeles and a

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director of the Center for the Study of Community Colleges

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drawing from her own and others' research. She regularly speaks, writes,

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and consults with college leaders on issues related to entrepreneurship

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and innovation, program and policy development, strategic planning and accountability,

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civic learning, and democratic engagement. Doctor Kisker holds a BA

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in psychology in education from Dartmouth College and an MA

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and PhD in higher education with the University of California

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at Los Angeles called UCL. Being a basketball coach, there

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was this guy named John Wood that did a pretty

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good job there. Doctor Kisser was also the author of

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The American Community College, written with Arthur Cohen and Florence

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brought the shaping of American higher education with Arthur Cohen

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and creating entrepreneurial community colleges design thinking approach without further ado,

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Doctor Kerry Kisker, Welcome to the Limitless Leadership Lounge.

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Thanks so much, coach. It's a pleasure to be here

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with you.

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Yeah. So I'm going to delve in because we've definitely

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have had other people with PhDs and worked in higher education,

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but I know you focused a lot in the community college,

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which is something we haven't delved into much. I'm going

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to ask a question is that when students finish high school,

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a lot of them have no clue what they want

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to do. I'm interested to is, what would you tell

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a student that didn't have any really idea as far

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as why community college might be a great option for them.

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Sure, there's all sorts of reasons why community colleges might

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be a great fit for a student. I but let's say,

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particularly someone who's coming from high school, they don't know

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exactly what they want to do, but they're a little

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nervous about spend somewhere between twenty five and eighty thousand

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dollars a year to explore that. Now, if you can

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do that's fantastic. There's nothing wrong with going directly to

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a four year residential university and learning about yourself. That

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is the heart of the liberal arts model, right, that

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has worked so well for four hundred years in this country.

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And there are a lot of students who either can't

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afford that, who can't move away from home, who are

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maybe taking care of their parents or other family members,

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or have their own children, or need to work for

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whatever reason. And so that journey of self exploration needs

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to be a little bit less expensive and a little

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bit closer to home. So community colleges provide one way

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to figure out what we're interested in as a student

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and where our strengths lie. Right. We know that in

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this country, a whole lot of students come out of

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our secondary system, the K through twelve system, not feeling

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very good about themselves as students and not having a

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lot of confidence in their abilities, and that is sadly

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both a true and a failure of our system. But

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community colleges really provide a lovely second chance for those

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students to perhaps study something that might be a more

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applied and therefore of interest to them, So maybe one

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of the skilled trades where they may be able to

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graduate in a year, two years, sometimes even less, with

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training that prepares them to go right into the workforce

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and potentially earn a six figure salary off the bat.

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They also provide students who maybe do want to pursue

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university studies the chance to figure out, maybe knock out

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a couple of those general education requirements, figure out where

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their passions lie, and then transfer to either a nearby

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or sometimes a far away university. That happens all the time.

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The beauty of community colleges is that they have for

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roughly one hundred years, had this a La Karte model

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of offering something for everyone. It can also be the

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downfall of many a community college, right because we're trying

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to be all things to all people. But there's a

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real art in that idea that no matter what you want,

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you can achieve it here. And so most community colleges

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are really trying to maintain some aspect of that. You

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can find yourself here, you can find your passion, you

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can find your path without necessarily having that scattershot approach

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to doing everything all at once as well.

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And Carrie, I've watched your video on the leadership and

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existential crisis, and we are living in a kind of

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dystopian world right now, and those who are in the academics,

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we are experiencing so many, so many challenges. So you

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as a leader, and you have been consulting leaders in

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the field of education, I know that civic learning and

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democratic engagement is so important for the students and for

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all of us, but recently we are seeing that those

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things are discouraged and sometimes being an academic, our values

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are also we are experiencing conflict, that conflict of how

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to do what when we are being challenged. So how

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do you, as a leader, how do you navigate this

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contentious territory of teaching our students on how to think

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in that right way, standing for what is right? So

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how do you do that? Or just we step hup y?

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That is doctor Green, That is the question. We are

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living through an unprecedented challenge to higher education. The only

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real parallel that might be appropriate would be back in

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the nineteen forties in the McCarthy era and blacklisted professors

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and attempts to stifle free speech and academic freedom. But

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I would argue that our government, both at a federal

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level and within many states, have gone much much further

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than that today to stifle academic freedom, which is the

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long sherished right and tradition for professors to be able

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to speak and teach about what they believe is important.

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When they do so, they are speaking for themselves as individuals,

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not for the institution. Those are two separate things, which

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is why academic freedom is not always extended to administrators

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of these institutions, because they often are speaking for their institution.

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But faculty really have the right and it's protected largely

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through a tenure to academic freedom and freedom of expression

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and that is being torn down, and it frankly has

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been attacked for years. But those attacks have been under

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the radar, and in some cases we have allowed things

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protections like tenure, and by we, those of us in

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academ have allowed protections like tenure to go by the

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wayside on our own watch. So we are not faultless

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here either. But to answer your question, I think we're

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in a time of unprecedented attacks not only on what

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universities and colleges are doing today with regard to DEI

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and inclusion practices, or what's being taught in the classroom,

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but really what is being attacked are the fundamental pillars

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upon which our entire system rests. And without these foundational pillars,

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I argue, we don't have the best system of higher

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education in the world anymore. Right So I give a

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lot of talks about this, and maybe you've seen a

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clip online, but to me, those fundamental pillars are number one,

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and perhaps the one that everything else rests on is

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institutional autonomy. And this has been established and upheld in

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the courts for centuries now, and it essentially is the

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right of institutions to make decisions to govern themselves in

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the way that they see fit. And this is for

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public institutions as well as privates, even though publics do

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have to comply more with state regulations and so forth.

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And the reason this is important is that it protects

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against government intrusion in saying what you can teach and

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how students must learn. Right, So it protects exempt against

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exactly what we are seeing being attempted today. The second

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pillar is I mentioned academic freedom, protected largely by tenure.

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The third pillar is freedom of expression, which I separate

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out from academic freedom because freedom of expression should be

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protected and encouraged for students as well as for faculty. Right. So,

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whether you're attending a community college or you're going to

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an Ivy League institution, our goal as educators is to

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help you. I think you mentioned this doctor Cream meant

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help you think and learn how to think, how to

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consider a problem or a challenge from multiple perspectives. As

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part of why we ask students to take a course

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in the quantitative sciences, in life sciences, and the humanities

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is because all of these different disciplines have a different

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approach to how they would consider a problem and seek

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to solve it. So the thinking goes. By exposing students

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to all these different ways of approaching and solving problems,

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we are teaching them how to think. I have very rarely,

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if not never, seen or experienced a classroom where the

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teacher tells a student what to think. I think that's

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a real common misperception in our higher education landscape right now.

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There's a lot of people, especially on the conservative right,

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who see universities and even community colleges as these places

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of liberal and doctrination where they're going to send their

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students and the students are going to come out believing

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something completely different than than what they were taught, maybe

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in the home or how they raise. Now, we do

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know that there is a period of cognitive and intellectual

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growth during the high school and college years where young

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people start thinking for themselves, really for the first time.

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But coach, I'll ask you this, how many of the

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young people have you coached or taught who have been

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easily brainwashed and just accepted whatever you told them is

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truth without pushing back or questioning it. I think anyone

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who's taught young people know I see you nodding that

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they are very unwilling. I have two teenagers, right now

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very unaccept what I should as gospel right and then

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just to go we can come back to that thought

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because that's a biggie right now. But then we also

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have stuff like protecting access and supporting all students through

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our colleges and our systems, and that was not always.

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We were not founded as an egalitarian system of higher education,

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but we have worked hard to become one, and in

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art I believe that's why our institutions are being attacked

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right now because they threaten the preservation of a I

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would say, racialized class order that some people may be

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trying to protect. And then the fifth and final pillar

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is a real commitment to working for the public good.

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And I would be interested in all of your thoughts

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on this as educators as well. But our system of

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higher education was really founded, and community colleges are perhaps

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the clearest example of this, founded to give back to

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the community, to teach students how to think for themselves

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and become, if not politically engaged citizens, at least civically

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engaged citizens, and recognize a problem in their community and

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identify ways to solve it that work for them and

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their families and the people they care about. So unfortunately.

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To get back to your question, I think that we

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are being attacked at the foundational level in all of

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these areas, and we can talk about why that might be.

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But I think you've started the question by ask what

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can leaders do? And I would include faculty leaders in

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my answer. I gave a talk recently to let's see

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the acronym is NISAD, the National Institute for Staff Organizational Development,

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and I answered this question and I said, I think

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we can fight back. Maybe fight back isn't the right word.

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That we can work in three different strands. The first

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is we need to be connecting. Harvard is fighting the

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battle with the federal government on its own, but Harvard

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is Harvard, and that can afford to do that. They

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are perhaps the only college in the world who can

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afford to do that. Everybody else and certainly are broadly accessible.

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Institutions and community colleges need to work in concert with

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one another. So I've been really encouraging faculty associations within

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disciplines to talk with each with one another, community colleges

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within regions, to form alliances and to work with one another.

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That we've seen faculty in the Big Ten and the

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university sectors start to do this, and we're now starting

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to see the associations across the US step up and

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help in this way. The second strand is resistance, and

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resistance is tricky, right, because when we hear resistance, we

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tend to think that means everything we ca have been

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doing is absolutely right, and they're attacking us, and we're

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going to fight back against everything. And I think we

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are under attack, yes, And at the same time, we're

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not perfect individuals, and we're certainly not perfect institutions, and

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we don't always get everything right. So even though we

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may resist the attacks at the foundational values that we

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hold as institutions and as educators, I think we also

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have to be really willing to look at mistakes we

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may have made, or how we can do things better,

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or are there alternate approaches to accomplishing our very noble

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objectives that maybe do not raise the ire of some

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people who feel like that's that we're going bad things

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the wrong way. And then the third strand, which you

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know that sort of self reflection leads to, is innovation.

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I think we're in a period where if we can

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recognize that when we're under attack is the biggest opportunity

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for growth. We can really innovate. We can find ways

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to serve students, new ways to serve communities, new ways

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to protect things like freedom of speech and the student's

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right to self expression and activism on our campuses, and

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recognize that must be done in a way that does

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not threaten any constituency on campus or off, or preclude

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anyone's access to their own learning and development. I think

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there's a real chance for innovation here. Unfortunately, a lot

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of what I do is innovation coaching directly with colleges

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and universities, which you might think of as fireproofing your

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home right here, trying to lead ways to protect your

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home in the future. But unfortunately fireproofing has to take

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a back seat when there is an active blaze raging

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through your kitchen. So while I'm encouraging leaders to act

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in these three areas, I think it's understandable that there

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is a lot of Okay, I understand, Carrie, but we

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need to focus on the blaze that is happening right

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now and deal with what is really threatened us, threatening

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us today in this week.

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Yeah, Carrie, it is. This might be more anecdotal, but

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just this concept, right now and I feel is really

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catching on in society. Again, I don't have any statistics

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to back this up, but just from what I've seen

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is this whole idea of hey, college isn't for everybody,

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follow your path, And while I don't disagree with that statement,

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I also think that we've turned that into college isn't

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for everybody. Therefore, maybe it's actually for nobody. And I

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couldn't disagree more with that. At what point do we

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have to because certainly we have to encourage maybe high

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school graduates who aren't ready to jump into college at

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this point, we have to encourage them to follow their path,

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maybe consider an education, further education down the road, but

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for now, maybe enter the workforce. Everybody's path is different, right,

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So I'm not saying college is always the answer right

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out of high school. But at the same time, it

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feels like obviously with like the federal and state governments,

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like you mentioned, there's a tax there, But then there's

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also seems to be from my perspective, like this overall

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cultural narrative, it seems to be going against colleges and

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more to working right out of school. Yeah, tell me

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if that's actually hit on.

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You've hit on one of my biggest pet peeves, which

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is that statement you said that we hear all the

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time that college is not or should not be for everyone,

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and that rakles me for two reasons. And the first

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is that when people say college is not for everyone,

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nine times out of ten ninety nine times out of

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one hundred, they're referring to that four year residential college experience.

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So they are saying the four year residential bachelor's degree

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attainment route is not for everyone, and that drives me nuts.

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I work most of the time with community colleges. I

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write most of the time about community colleges and community

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colleges college. In fact, I have a T shirt that

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I made that literally says community college is college on

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the line of everyone watches women's sports, because I get

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really upset when people do not include community college in

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that notion of college. It is college. It often leads

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to a bachelor's degree, It leads to other degrees and

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certificates that prepare you for the workforce. It is college.

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It is a slightly different way of approaching college than

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a four year residential college experience, but just Colgate University

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looks a lot different than you see Santa Barbara, Your

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local community college is going to look a lot different

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than both of those, and they are all college, they

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are all college experience. So I hate that college isn't

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for everyone statement because I think it really ignores the

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places where forty percent of undergraduates in America start their education. Wow,

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forty percent. And the second reason I hate that is

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to your first point, I think, John, which is that

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it is a slightly underhanded way, potentially at least in

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some people's mouths, saying college should not be for anyone,

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or attempting to tear down the public trade in our institutions.

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So I agree with you one hundred percent. I do

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not think that every single student coming out of high

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school needs to go directly to college. If that is

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not the path for them, no problem. If community college

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is the path for them, great. If it's not the

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path for them and they need to get out into

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the workforce, great that's another beauty, Coach. To get back

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to your earlier question, that another beauty of community colleges

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and frankly many more institutions these days as well, is

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that you can come back for upskilling and retraining. There

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are not a huge number of students, but there's way

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more students over the age of sixty five coming back

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not to study basket weaving and personal interest courses, but

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to actually learn new skills and trades in our community

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colleges all across the country right now. So the statement

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college is not for everyone drives me nuts. But I

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agree with you also that it doesn't have to be

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the path directly out of college for everybody. And if

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you can can go get a certificate and become a

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solar panel installer in a year or two years and

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make one hundred thousand dollars, that is still going to college.

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Let us not exclude that or take that really elitist

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view of what college is.

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Hey, Carrie, I got to ask you because I know

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you've done work with entrepreneurship and our podcast focus on

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trying to help young in emerging leaders. So what can

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you give us two or three piece of advice for

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a young person or even a person that's in mid

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range in their career and now says, you know what,

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I don't want to work for someone else. I want

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to be an entrepreneur. What's your thoughts on giving them

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some advice of taking the entrepreneurs ship journey.

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I think maybe the three of you will agree with me.

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I think the skills and mindsets that it takes to

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be an entrepreneur are going to be increasingly necessary for

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all of us, whether or not we want to start

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a small business, especially in a time of AI and

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just that the pace at which our technological powers are growing,

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it's going to become more important. Those jobs where you

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go sit at a desk and work for eight hours

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punch your clock are already almost gone, right and so

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and rumor this goes back to the point about learning

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how to learn maybe in college being the most important thing,

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and I think the entrepreneurial skills and mindsets go right

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along with that too. That the pace of change in

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the labor market is so fast these days that whether

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you want to start a small business or you just

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want to be able to survive in whatever industry you

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are currently working in, you're going to have to be

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able to think entrepreneurially and in an innovative way, because

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that's what we can do that the machines cannot. The

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machines are trained on human learning, but they are not

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thinking beyond human learning yet. So we have to be

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able to continue learning and coach, I think you're right.

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I think if you're wanting to start a small business,

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you have some measure of control over your own life

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and your own destiny, and you maybe if are able

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to pivot faster than if you are cog in the machine,

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going along and doing what your boss tells you to

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do every day. I think you're going to be out innovated.

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In that second example, I know that I didn't set

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out to be a small business owner or an entrepreneur.

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Neither did my husband. We both worked for other people

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early in our career, and now we both work for

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ourselves and our own companies. And in his case, for example,

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he works in entertainment, and the entertainment industry is yeah,

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it is changing really fast, and the only way he

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could see to maintain some longevity in that business is

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to design a way to do it differently. And I

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think that's what we all need to be learning.

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And you talked about design thinking approach as entrepreneurs, and

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I also took the path. I started working at unisf

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and then nine to five job, and then I moved

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into academic. So after ten years, I start to reinvent myself.

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And then I decided to start my own nonprofit and

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working on some startup industry, thinking about some startup industry,

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and I think we gen xers are a little bit

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challenged now because things are moving so fast with the

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AI and everything. There is no certainty in our career

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like where we're sticking to and this shift of change,

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I think is so important for us to have that

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mindset of learning to unlearn. Also, so the adaptability. So

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how like from your point of view when you are

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counseling the leaders, do you see this area that need

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to be explored, like the adaptability and flexibility and how

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do you get that?

427
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How do you teach that to people?

428
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Yeah, that's a really good question. I think there are

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probably lots of exercises and ways that you could teach that.

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I typically come in and have one two sometimes three

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maybe half days with a group of college leaders and

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faculty and staff, and I'm very limited in what we

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can do.

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During that time. So what I often try to do

435
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is focus on the front end of the design thinking process, right,

436
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which is really identifying what your stakeholder's needs are in

437
00:25:36.240 --> 00:25:39.359
which of those are not being met, And I think

438
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that leads into so we often go through a lot

439
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of exercises, to do market research, to talk to students,

440
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to talk to faculty, community members, what are the workforce

441
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needs in our areas? Go back and really identify what

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are the needs, Where are we meeting those needs? Where

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can we do better? And where are the unmet needs?

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And to me, the unmet needs are the key there,

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because that's where we have to say, Okay, we're not

446
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doing this or we're not doing this well. What needs

447
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to change so that we can serve this need? And

448
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sometimes it's we're not the best organization to serve this need,

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so we're going to collaborate with somebody else to do that.

450
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But I think that's where the adaptability comes from. The

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hardest thing to do in higher education and potentially most

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places to really to sunset programs that are meeting and

453
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need that no longer exists as strongly as it once did.

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And the reason it's so hard is that oftentimes that

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translates into real consequences for real people, either lost jobs

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or asking them to pivot or shutting down a program.

457
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And even if there's only one student who wants to

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take that program, that's one student who now is not

459
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able to do it. So it's really difficult. It's much

460
00:26:54.759 --> 00:26:58.319
easier to add right in order to meet an unnet

461
00:26:58.759 --> 00:27:02.720
net need is much more difficult for college leaders than

462
00:27:02.759 --> 00:27:05.640
probably everybody else to say, Okay, we're going to stop

463
00:27:05.799 --> 00:27:07.960
trying to meet and need this way because we need

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to put our resources in another area. But really that

465
00:27:12.039 --> 00:27:15.720
comes down to being responsive and adaptable and listening to

466
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your community members and what they're asking of you.

467
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And it's definitely we have so much resistance, like I

468
00:27:21.759 --> 00:27:25.519
see so much resistance like when AI was introduced. There

469
00:27:25.599 --> 00:27:30.920
is a generational difference in adapting to AI. I am

470
00:27:30.960 --> 00:27:33.839
not going to even I have I mentioned to many

471
00:27:33.880 --> 00:27:36.000
of my friends, I'm not going to use AI for

472
00:27:36.119 --> 00:27:39.519
writing things that I don't want to jeopardize my skill

473
00:27:39.559 --> 00:27:43.400
of creative. But now I'm like, Okay, let me try this,

474
00:27:44.079 --> 00:27:46.920
and then I find out, yes, I can keep my voice,

475
00:27:46.960 --> 00:27:50.680
my emotion, but AI could also facilitate. It can be

476
00:27:50.720 --> 00:27:53.240
a tool for me to go into another level.

477
00:27:53.759 --> 00:27:56.640
I hear you, I too, have pushed back on using

478
00:27:56.680 --> 00:27:59.720
AI for writing because I'm a writer. I have books

479
00:28:00.079 --> 00:28:03.000
that I have written and that's my work product, that

480
00:28:03.119 --> 00:28:07.960
is my thought. I sit with every sentence and it's

481
00:28:08.680 --> 00:28:12.839
creative but it's also this physical challenge because it doesn't

482
00:28:13.359 --> 00:28:15.640
work to wordsmith and have it say exactly what I

483
00:28:15.720 --> 00:28:19.359
want it to say. And then so if AI can

484
00:28:19.400 --> 00:28:21.599
do the same thing, I'm wondering what good am I anymore?

485
00:28:22.200 --> 00:28:24.519
What is the utility for me in my career and

486
00:28:24.559 --> 00:28:27.039
what I have to say? But I agree we have

487
00:28:27.119 --> 00:28:30.200
to be adaptable, and there are ways that all of

488
00:28:30.279 --> 00:28:33.640
us could use a There are also ways that us

489
00:28:33.799 --> 00:28:37.319
that we can all adapt and either incorporate or change

490
00:28:37.799 --> 00:28:42.160
the way we do things to respond to other technologies

491
00:28:42.319 --> 00:28:45.200
or students who are coming into our classes who may

492
00:28:45.640 --> 00:28:48.200
learn differently than the students of thirty years ago or

493
00:28:48.279 --> 00:28:50.400
the athletes of thirty years ago. We have to be

494
00:28:50.480 --> 00:28:53.359
adaptable in all kinds of ways. I think we're AI

495
00:28:53.519 --> 00:28:56.240
is the big scary elephant in the room right now,

496
00:28:56.279 --> 00:28:58.799
But there are all kinds of things that should be

497
00:28:58.920 --> 00:29:02.400
forcing us to adapt. Yeah, and they're all scary for

498
00:29:02.559 --> 00:29:04.200
us olds.

499
00:29:04.559 --> 00:29:08.000
Oh no, and for old twenty six year olds too,

500
00:29:08.079 --> 00:29:13.359
because it's terrifying. It's really terrifying. I would argue that Carrie,

501
00:29:13.400 --> 00:29:17.039
to your earlier point, I don't think AI can replace

502
00:29:17.240 --> 00:29:19.359
you as a writer. I can certainly help to renew

503
00:29:19.359 --> 00:29:22.480
MOUs point. But I certainly think that your writing is

504
00:29:22.519 --> 00:29:26.039
still valuable and that thought leadership is so important, and

505
00:29:26.039 --> 00:29:29.119
that's ultimately really who we are as educators, as thought

506
00:29:29.160 --> 00:29:31.839
leaders and I'm an adjunct, I teach one class. I

507
00:29:31.839 --> 00:29:34.759
can barely count myself in with you guys, but still

508
00:29:34.799 --> 00:29:39.519
we're all educator. We're all educators and as far as staff,

509
00:29:39.640 --> 00:29:42.160
faculty and staff. This is one question that I had

510
00:29:42.200 --> 00:29:45.319
for you as someone who because maybe it's a personal

511
00:29:45.359 --> 00:29:48.240
question for me, I don't know, might consider going down

512
00:29:48.519 --> 00:29:51.960
in increased role in education in the future besides what

513
00:29:52.000 --> 00:29:55.519
I currently do. What would you advise? Because I feel

514
00:29:55.519 --> 00:29:57.960
like a lot of again this is anecdotal. Again, I

515
00:29:57.960 --> 00:30:02.079
don't have any evidence for this, but colleges, universities, and

516
00:30:03.119 --> 00:30:06.079
high schools and below too, there's a lot of need

517
00:30:06.160 --> 00:30:10.599
for educators. The role seems to be under attack. Isn't

518
00:30:10.759 --> 00:30:15.000
as lucrative or maybe just attractive of a role as

519
00:30:15.039 --> 00:30:18.319
it once used to be, And now everybody's hiring and

520
00:30:18.359 --> 00:30:22.039
looking for people. So, first of all, what went wrong?

521
00:30:22.279 --> 00:30:25.720
And second of all, is this still should this still

522
00:30:25.759 --> 00:30:29.200
be an exciting career for people who want to make

523
00:30:29.240 --> 00:30:31.000
a difference in the lives of youth.

524
00:30:31.880 --> 00:30:35.680
I'll take that last question first. Yes it is. I

525
00:30:35.720 --> 00:30:40.039
think it is the most important career and frankly can

526
00:30:40.119 --> 00:30:42.759
be the most rewarding career. And coach. I'll look to

527
00:30:42.799 --> 00:30:47.799
you as perhaps our senior most of the generations represented here.

528
00:30:48.240 --> 00:30:52.000
But I imagine you have not stayed in coaching and

529
00:30:52.000 --> 00:30:56.079
teaching and working with young people because it's lucrative. I

530
00:30:56.119 --> 00:30:59.359
think you've stayed in it because you make connections and

531
00:30:59.400 --> 00:31:02.839
you can see you have on young people's lives and

532
00:31:02.880 --> 00:31:04.960
in many cases, and I know this to be true

533
00:31:04.960 --> 00:31:07.400
about you, and I assume it to be true about

534
00:31:07.400 --> 00:31:10.440
all of us, have made a real change in the

535
00:31:10.480 --> 00:31:14.720
trajectory of someone's life based on your interactions. And sometimes

536
00:31:14.759 --> 00:31:17.960
that's as little as just seeing them and recognizing that

537
00:31:18.000 --> 00:31:21.519
they may be going through something difficult, and hey, I'm here.

538
00:31:21.559 --> 00:31:23.200
If you ever want to stop in my office or

539
00:31:23.200 --> 00:31:26.359
talk about anything as a faculty member, maybe that's as

540
00:31:26.359 --> 00:31:28.839
simple as hey, is everything okay going on in your life?

541
00:31:28.839 --> 00:31:31.039
If you need an extra week on this paper, let

542
00:31:31.039 --> 00:31:35.799
me know. And sometimes there's nobody else in a student's

543
00:31:35.839 --> 00:31:39.440
life who takes the time to just stop and say,

544
00:31:39.519 --> 00:31:43.480
I see you. It looks hard. How can I help you,

545
00:31:43.920 --> 00:31:46.920
and it's important that I help you, and it's important

546
00:31:46.920 --> 00:31:49.759
that you continue regardless of whatever's going on, and we'll

547
00:31:49.799 --> 00:31:52.039
find a way to help you do that. And I

548
00:31:52.160 --> 00:31:54.519
see smiles and nods from all of you right now.

549
00:31:54.519 --> 00:31:57.079
I think that's why we get into this. We're not

550
00:31:57.200 --> 00:32:02.640
going to retire on a yacht as educators. But I

551
00:32:02.680 --> 00:32:07.200
do think, oh, yeah, yeah, exactly. But I do think

552
00:32:07.279 --> 00:32:09.799
that when we think about what we had written on

553
00:32:09.839 --> 00:32:12.880
our tombstones at the end of the day, it's not

554
00:32:13.160 --> 00:32:16.119
I made enough money to retire on a yacht's I

555
00:32:16.279 --> 00:32:20.759
changed some people's lives. So I would encourage you to

556
00:32:21.319 --> 00:32:25.400
continue your work in education, John, it is your first

557
00:32:25.519 --> 00:32:28.680
point in question. I think it's perhaps harder than ever.

558
00:32:29.279 --> 00:32:32.680
I think teachers in particular and faculty members in colleges

559
00:32:32.720 --> 00:32:37.079
have been undervalued and underpaid for years, especially teachers in

560
00:32:37.119 --> 00:32:40.240
the K through twelve system. And we can talk all

561
00:32:40.240 --> 00:32:42.119
about the reasons why for that, even though that's not

562
00:32:42.200 --> 00:32:44.680
really my area of expertise, I of course have opinions,

563
00:32:45.000 --> 00:32:49.640
but I think that administrators too have been blamed for

564
00:32:49.759 --> 00:32:52.039
all kinds of things. Over the past couple of years.

565
00:32:52.319 --> 00:32:56.039
There's this whole concept of administrative bloat in colleges and

566
00:32:56.160 --> 00:32:58.920
universities is the reason why tuition has gone up thirty

567
00:32:58.960 --> 00:33:01.400
percent over the past two decades or whatever it is.

568
00:33:01.920 --> 00:33:04.319
And part of that is there is true there are

569
00:33:04.400 --> 00:33:08.440
more administrators, but there are more administrators for two reasons.

570
00:33:08.519 --> 00:33:12.640
Largely one is to comply with governmental regulations, and the

571
00:33:12.680 --> 00:33:15.400
second is because we have recognized that we need to

572
00:33:15.480 --> 00:33:18.200
do more as institutions to support the students who show

573
00:33:18.279 --> 00:33:20.759
up on our doorsteps every day, and that it is

574
00:33:20.839 --> 00:33:23.920
not okay to open our doors say come here, teach

575
00:33:23.920 --> 00:33:26.359
a class and send them home. That there is all

576
00:33:26.440 --> 00:33:29.039
kinds of work we need to do to support all

577
00:33:29.079 --> 00:33:32.599
students who come from all kinds of backgrounds and different experiences.

578
00:33:33.119 --> 00:33:35.799
And so there has been growth in the administrative side,

579
00:33:35.920 --> 00:33:39.759
especially related to student services. But I have a really

580
00:33:39.799 --> 00:33:43.079
hard time accepting that hasn't been a good investment. Anyone

581
00:33:43.119 --> 00:33:45.319
I think who runs a for profit business would know

582
00:33:45.400 --> 00:33:47.279
that you spend a whole lot more money trying to

583
00:33:47.319 --> 00:33:50.839
get a new client through the door do keeping the

584
00:33:50.960 --> 00:33:55.160
current client involved through completion, and it's the same in education,

585
00:33:55.319 --> 00:33:58.160
and yet we have a hard time spending money to

586
00:33:58.279 --> 00:34:00.519
do that, especially at our publicans tay stitutions.

587
00:34:01.119 --> 00:34:03.319
Yeah, and you had a good point. What does that

588
00:34:03.400 --> 00:34:06.680
look like? Because you your point earlier was that we

589
00:34:06.799 --> 00:34:11.480
need to get higher education institutions more involved in the community.

590
00:34:11.719 --> 00:34:14.679
So what does that often look like. Is it the

591
00:34:14.719 --> 00:34:18.000
fraternities and sororities doing more community service, because that's something

592
00:34:18.000 --> 00:34:20.760
that we see. But is there more than that that

593
00:34:20.800 --> 00:34:22.119
you're referring to when you say that.

594
00:34:22.480 --> 00:34:25.559
Yeah, So as I work mainly with community colleges, and

595
00:34:25.840 --> 00:34:29.760
it is intrinsic to the mission of those institutions to

596
00:34:29.760 --> 00:34:32.280
be responsive to their communities. So you see this in

597
00:34:32.360 --> 00:34:37.079
all kinds of ways. Training programs developed specifically for businesses

598
00:34:37.119 --> 00:34:40.719
in the area, and oftentimes this is done in concert

599
00:34:40.840 --> 00:34:45.639
with metropolitan areas or regions in order to bring company

600
00:34:45.639 --> 00:34:49.079
headquarters to that region and say, if you can bring

601
00:34:49.239 --> 00:34:53.719
State Farm here, we will develop an insurance administrative degree

602
00:34:53.800 --> 00:34:58.159
program to educate their workers. Or if you bring Boeing here,

603
00:34:58.239 --> 00:35:03.039
we will develop an aeronautic engineering program that transfers directly

604
00:35:03.079 --> 00:35:06.599
into the VA program at our nearby institution, and that

605
00:35:06.679 --> 00:35:10.199
provides technicians who can graduate in six months or less

606
00:35:10.480 --> 00:35:13.519
and go write and work for them. So community collegests

607
00:35:13.519 --> 00:35:16.320
have forever for the past hundred so years that they've

608
00:35:16.320 --> 00:35:19.679
been around, worked really closely with chambers of commerce, with

609
00:35:19.960 --> 00:35:24.559
local businesses and industries in order to provide some cases

610
00:35:24.599 --> 00:35:28.840
direct training and then other cases develop programs where incumbent

611
00:35:28.840 --> 00:35:32.960
workers can come up skill and reskill and further their education.

612
00:35:33.400 --> 00:35:35.880
So that's one way of working with the community. Other

613
00:35:35.920 --> 00:35:39.840
ways are offering English as a second language courses for

614
00:35:39.920 --> 00:35:43.039
community members. This is not leading toward a degree year program,

615
00:35:43.079 --> 00:35:47.280
but just providing those resources for skills, maybe holding daycare

616
00:35:47.320 --> 00:35:50.760
on campus. Santa Monica College, near where I live in

617
00:35:50.920 --> 00:35:54.760
La has a gorgeous pool that is open to the public,

618
00:35:55.280 --> 00:35:57.639
and there's all kinds of s Antamonica also has an

619
00:35:57.679 --> 00:36:02.000
emeritus college where they invite retired folks to come take

620
00:36:02.039 --> 00:36:05.239
a class on I don't know World War two history

621
00:36:05.480 --> 00:36:07.719
or None of these courses lead toward degree, but they

622
00:36:07.840 --> 00:36:11.760
certainly provide engagement for the community and intellectual stimulation for

623
00:36:11.800 --> 00:36:15.920
a population who maybe lacks that to some degree. Sporting

624
00:36:15.920 --> 00:36:19.400
events is another way that we all interact with our communities, right,

625
00:36:19.519 --> 00:36:22.880
and that's a big source of community pride. And I'm

626
00:36:22.920 --> 00:36:26.360
speaking specifically about community colleges, but you could draw parallels.

627
00:36:26.920 --> 00:36:30.079
I also think that what we don't understand too is

628
00:36:30.159 --> 00:36:34.719
how much educating students at all types of institutions and

629
00:36:34.800 --> 00:36:40.400
at all levels contributes to local revenue and economic growth.

630
00:36:41.760 --> 00:36:45.039
When we took students off college campuses during the first

631
00:36:45.079 --> 00:36:49.360
year of COVID, local businesses died. There was literally nobody

632
00:36:49.400 --> 00:36:53.920
to go to those stores to buy those sandwiches. And

633
00:36:53.960 --> 00:36:57.480
then also we're graduating students and they're staying. In particular,

634
00:36:57.519 --> 00:37:01.199
international students who come to the US for college like

635
00:37:01.480 --> 00:37:05.159
to stay and contribute to the economy and take jobs

636
00:37:05.199 --> 00:37:09.440
that further our own workforce very frequently. And there's a

637
00:37:09.480 --> 00:37:12.039
recent report out saying that we are going to lose

638
00:37:12.039 --> 00:37:14.960
something like sixty billion dollars as a result of the

639
00:37:15.159 --> 00:37:19.039
drop in international student enrollment this fall as a result

640
00:37:19.039 --> 00:37:22.760
of that. So the community give and take is enormous

641
00:37:23.159 --> 00:37:28.000
and often invisible in terms of how it keeps certain communities.

642
00:37:28.039 --> 00:37:29.679
If you think about some of these college towns in

643
00:37:29.719 --> 00:37:32.440
the middle of nowhere, they would not be alive. They

644
00:37:32.480 --> 00:37:35.880
would look like old mining towns if the college or

645
00:37:36.079 --> 00:37:38.440
university were not there to keep it Afloat.

646
00:37:39.960 --> 00:37:43.159
Garry, we really appreciate and I have one final question.

647
00:37:43.440 --> 00:37:45.960
I'm sure my co hosts do as well. But I'd

648
00:37:46.000 --> 00:37:47.440
like it because I know you work with a lot

649
00:37:47.480 --> 00:37:50.400
of leaders, and so if you are advising a young

650
00:37:50.559 --> 00:37:55.199
person to zero win on a couple ideas on how

651
00:37:55.239 --> 00:37:58.000
to be a more effective leader from all the work

652
00:37:58.039 --> 00:38:01.599
you've done with leaders, would be one, two, or three

653
00:38:01.719 --> 00:38:04.679
ideas you would share with that person to become a

654
00:38:04.719 --> 00:38:07.320
more effective leader. That's a good question.

655
00:38:08.280 --> 00:38:10.920
The first thing that's popping into my mind is that

656
00:38:11.239 --> 00:38:14.880
the best ideas can often come from unexpected places. So

657
00:38:15.119 --> 00:38:17.800
I think we all run into the patterns of thinking

658
00:38:17.840 --> 00:38:20.800
that this smart person in the room, or the most

659
00:38:21.119 --> 00:38:25.079
degreed person in the room, or whomever, is going to

660
00:38:25.119 --> 00:38:28.079
have the best ideas. And sometimes that's the case. But

661
00:38:28.320 --> 00:38:32.760
I have seen innovations adopted in community colleges that came

662
00:38:32.800 --> 00:38:36.840
from a statement that a custodial worker made saying, I'm

663
00:38:36.880 --> 00:38:39.440
noticing that a lot of students are eating lunch and

664
00:38:39.519 --> 00:38:41.800
drop in their trash in this area, and what if

665
00:38:41.840 --> 00:38:44.280
we maybe beautified it and made this a place for

666
00:38:44.360 --> 00:38:47.679
gathering in connection and all of these things can support

667
00:38:47.719 --> 00:38:51.679
student success, and so be open to ideas from wherever

668
00:38:51.719 --> 00:38:53.280
they come. I think that's one thing.

669
00:38:53.559 --> 00:38:57.039
Don't care just say one thing, because you really hit

670
00:38:57.079 --> 00:38:59.039
a good thing there, because this is one of the

671
00:38:59.039 --> 00:39:02.440
hardest things it is in my leadership journey. Is then

672
00:39:02.480 --> 00:39:04.760
I think it became a much better leader. And just

673
00:39:04.760 --> 00:39:07.800
to reinforce what you said is I believe the most

674
00:39:07.840 --> 00:39:11.400
effective leaders are trying to find the best answer, not

675
00:39:11.480 --> 00:39:15.199
necessarily their answer. And boy, you said that quite well,

676
00:39:15.199 --> 00:39:16.440
so I just wanted to share that.

677
00:39:16.559 --> 00:39:19.440
So yeah, I like the restatement. I think that's exactly right.

678
00:39:20.039 --> 00:39:22.320
The second thing I would say and do say all

679
00:39:22.320 --> 00:39:26.159
the time is expect failure and embrace it and sometimes

680
00:39:26.159 --> 00:39:30.199
even celebrate it too. I think sometimes I see in

681
00:39:30.280 --> 00:39:33.639
my children today are so afraid to fail because they

682
00:39:33.639 --> 00:39:36.360
think it brands them as a failure or unable to

683
00:39:36.400 --> 00:39:38.880
do the work. And what I try to impress upon them,

684
00:39:38.880 --> 00:39:42.079
and I think probably what most educators do, is how

685
00:39:42.119 --> 00:39:44.679
else are you going to learn if you don't fail?

686
00:39:44.679 --> 00:39:49.199
And ideally you fail in small ways and adjust and

687
00:39:49.239 --> 00:39:52.559
make improvements. But sometimes we fail in big ways too,

688
00:39:52.760 --> 00:39:54.920
and that is okay. That it does not mean that

689
00:39:55.000 --> 00:39:58.039
we are a failure. It means that idea needs some

690
00:39:58.119 --> 00:40:01.159
more work, or we neglect it to take something into account,

691
00:40:01.280 --> 00:40:03.880
or we needed another round of edits, or maybe we

692
00:40:03.920 --> 00:40:07.079
needed to study harder. So I think that advice I

693
00:40:07.119 --> 00:40:09.760
could give to all students, but especially to leaders too

694
00:40:09.800 --> 00:40:13.239
who are trying to incent innovation on their campuses or

695
00:40:13.239 --> 00:40:16.159
in their companies that don't expect people to get it

696
00:40:16.199 --> 00:40:18.199
right the first time. In fact, if they got it

697
00:40:18.280 --> 00:40:20.960
right the first time, you'd probably be leaving something on

698
00:40:21.039 --> 00:40:25.119
the table. Right that there is further innovation that could

699
00:40:25.199 --> 00:40:27.519
come out of that idea if you just accept the

700
00:40:27.559 --> 00:40:31.639
first iteration of it. And I think the final advice

701
00:40:31.719 --> 00:40:35.840
I would give is that we tend to see entrepreneurship

702
00:40:35.920 --> 00:40:40.039
and education as two separate things. And you either go

703
00:40:40.199 --> 00:40:42.280
through an education system and get a job and go

704
00:40:42.320 --> 00:40:45.199
into a career, or you are an entrepreneur and you

705
00:40:45.280 --> 00:40:48.639
do things yourself in your own way. And I think

706
00:40:48.639 --> 00:40:51.800
it's a false dichotomy. I think that there are incredible

707
00:40:51.960 --> 00:40:57.079
entrepreneurship training programs at nearly all colleges and universities these days,

708
00:40:57.679 --> 00:41:02.599
and I think that we can all utilize the skills

709
00:41:02.599 --> 00:41:05.639
and mindsets of an entrepreneur, even if we aren't starting

710
00:41:05.639 --> 00:41:07.840
a small business, even if we aren't trying to go

711
00:41:07.960 --> 00:41:10.920
our own way. And on the flip side, if you

712
00:41:11.119 --> 00:41:13.599
do start a business. If you are trying to come

713
00:41:13.679 --> 00:41:16.079
up with something and do it your own way, it

714
00:41:16.119 --> 00:41:18.760
doesn't mean that education, to go back to your point, John,

715
00:41:18.920 --> 00:41:21.760
is not right for you. There may be all kinds

716
00:41:21.760 --> 00:41:24.119
of things that you can still learn and give back

717
00:41:24.719 --> 00:41:27.920
to our education system and still be an entrepreneur and

718
00:41:28.039 --> 00:41:31.719
still do things differently. Education is not in doctrination. It

719
00:41:31.840 --> 00:41:35.519
is teaching you how to think and exposing you to

720
00:41:35.760 --> 00:41:39.400
the ways of thinking, the tools, the analytical approaches, and

721
00:41:39.440 --> 00:41:42.800
so forth. It may be useful, So don't separate those two.

722
00:41:42.920 --> 00:41:46.400
I think that we can have the best partnerships between

723
00:41:46.559 --> 00:41:52.239
entrepreneurs and academics and students if we stop drawing those lines.

724
00:41:52.559 --> 00:41:55.920
It's either education or starting my own business.

725
00:41:56.239 --> 00:41:59.400
I think that, and I can be walking evidence of

726
00:41:59.440 --> 00:42:02.880
that because I have six years of higher education and

727
00:42:02.920 --> 00:42:06.000
I'm an entrepreneur, and without at least some of that

728
00:42:06.079 --> 00:42:09.360
higher education, I would have had no chance forget it.

729
00:42:09.440 --> 00:42:12.480
I wouldn't even know what I was doing. And part

730
00:42:12.480 --> 00:42:15.679
of that certainly is life experience too, because that's part

731
00:42:15.719 --> 00:42:17.920
of the beauty of college, whether you choose the community

732
00:42:17.920 --> 00:42:20.760
college path or the traditional four year path, or a

733
00:42:20.840 --> 00:42:24.760
combination of both. Right, like, just that life experience and

734
00:42:24.920 --> 00:42:27.440
the responsibility that you get. Going from high school to

735
00:42:27.519 --> 00:42:31.119
college is such a big jump. I can imagine going

736
00:42:31.119 --> 00:42:34.480
from high school straight into entrepreneurship is I can't even

737
00:42:34.559 --> 00:42:36.719
imagine how monumental of a jump that is. I just

738
00:42:36.719 --> 00:42:39.199
would have had no clue. So I definitely networking.

739
00:42:39.440 --> 00:42:42.360
I think the college universities they also provide you with

740
00:42:42.440 --> 00:42:46.800
the network because I would not be able to run

741
00:42:46.920 --> 00:42:50.400
my programs in if I did not have my alumni base.

742
00:42:51.079 --> 00:42:54.440
So both the Penn State alumni and the Bangladesh University

743
00:42:54.480 --> 00:42:59.719
alumni both helped me to raise funds for the programs

744
00:42:59.719 --> 00:43:03.079
that I've to run. So I think networking is also

745
00:43:03.199 --> 00:43:07.000
so important when we are working as entrepreneurs.

746
00:43:07.239 --> 00:43:09.960
Yeah, even Penn State can turn out some good alumni.

747
00:43:10.400 --> 00:43:16.079
Come on, sorry, yeah, Ben Stater.

748
00:43:17.199 --> 00:43:19.719
My seventeen year old daughter is applying to both those

749
00:43:19.719 --> 00:43:23.039
institutions this fall, so I will let you know where

750
00:43:23.079 --> 00:43:23.840
she ends up.

751
00:43:23.880 --> 00:43:28.360
And then, wow, Ben State is the five years I

752
00:43:28.440 --> 00:43:30.880
was there for my PhD, it like it is the

753
00:43:30.920 --> 00:43:35.719
most happening place, and I met some amazing faculty and

754
00:43:35.800 --> 00:43:39.159
people there who really helped me to grow as person.

755
00:43:39.400 --> 00:43:43.239
So that's and the environment Happy Valley they call it value.

756
00:43:43.559 --> 00:43:47.840
Yea, our mascots cuter renewma, come on orange is a

757
00:43:47.920 --> 00:43:51.039
mascot that's as cute as it gets. But No, both

758
00:43:51.039 --> 00:43:54.199
great institutions and both hills, both with a lot of hills.

759
00:43:54.320 --> 00:43:58.559
She'll get her exercise in no matter what. Sid Yeah, Carrie,

760
00:43:58.559 --> 00:44:01.519
where do we learn more about your work and potentially

761
00:44:01.559 --> 00:44:02.280
get in touch with you?

762
00:44:03.039 --> 00:44:08.400
Sure? So my website Kisker ed Consulting EDS being short

763
00:44:08.440 --> 00:44:11.280
for education, you can reach me. There's a contact me

764
00:44:11.360 --> 00:44:13.480
button on there, and you can learn all about the

765
00:44:13.559 --> 00:44:16.679
different strands of my work and my writing and speaking

766
00:44:16.719 --> 00:44:20.280
and so forth, as well as the workshops and consulting

767
00:44:20.320 --> 00:44:23.440
I can do directly with colleges. I also am the

768
00:44:23.440 --> 00:44:26.239
director of the Center for the Study of Community Colleges,

769
00:44:26.280 --> 00:44:30.239
which is a nonprofit organization that promotes both our own

770
00:44:30.400 --> 00:44:34.000
national research on community colleges, but we also support others'

771
00:44:34.039 --> 00:44:37.679
research on community college leadership practice and policy, and that

772
00:44:37.920 --> 00:44:41.840
is at Center Forcommunitycolleges dot org. And I'm also on

773
00:44:41.960 --> 00:44:46.800
LinkedIn under Carrie Kisker Kisker and I'm happy to hear

774
00:44:46.840 --> 00:44:48.360
from anyone at any time.

775
00:44:49.119 --> 00:44:51.719
Wonderful All those links down in the show notes and

776
00:44:52.039 --> 00:44:54.400
we learned a lot from you today, Carrie, both about

777
00:44:54.559 --> 00:44:58.519
higher education, entrepreneurship, and I think no matter if you're

778
00:44:58.519 --> 00:45:00.719
an entrepreneur or not, or no matter if you have

779
00:45:01.119 --> 00:45:03.760
kids in college or you yourself are thinking about going

780
00:45:03.840 --> 00:45:07.199
to college, this was still very valuable conversation. So doctor

781
00:45:07.239 --> 00:45:09.559
Kerry Kisker, thank you so much for your time today

782
00:45:09.599 --> 00:45:11.119
in the Limitless Leadership Lounge.

783
00:45:11.679 --> 00:45:14.159
My pleasure, and thank you for such wonderful questions. All

784
00:45:14.239 --> 00:45:15.519
three of you appreciate it.

785
00:45:15.880 --> 00:45:18.320
Thank you for joining us this week at the Limitless

786
00:45:18.440 --> 00:45:21.400
Leadership Lounge. To listen to this episode again and to

787
00:45:21.440 --> 00:45:25.400
find previous episodes, check us out on Apple Podcasts, Spotify,

788
00:45:25.599 --> 00:45:28.000
and Spreager. You can also get in on the conversation

789
00:45:28.199 --> 00:45:30.039
find us on Facebook and Instagram.

790
00:45:30.239 --> 00:45:31.559
Then tell three of your friends to.

791
00:45:31.599 --> 00:45:34.519
Join it as well. Coach Numa and John. We'll be

792
00:45:34.559 --> 00:45:38.280
back again next week for another try generational leadership discussion.

793
00:45:38.559 --> 00:45:43.320
We'll talk to you then on the Limitless Leadership Lounge