Episode 295: Who Takes Care of the Leader? with Melissa Doman

Darrin Peppard (00:00)

Alright, my friends, welcome into episode 295 of the Leaning Into Leadership Podcast. Leaders eat last. You've probably heard that phrase. Maybe you've read the book. Maybe you've even built part of your leadership philosophy around that very idea. Take care of your people, put the team first, and serve others. And I believe deeply in servant leadership for absolute clarity. But

Here's a question that we don't ask nearly enough. What happens when the leader keeps eating last? And eventually, there's nothing left? What happens when serving everyone else turns into ignoring your own capacity, your own stress, and your own needs? Because leadership doesn't somehow make us less human, and yet we often create this strange expectation that the leader should support everyone else's.

Mental health, manage everyone else's emotions, remain calm through every crisis, make every difficult decision, and yet somehow never need support for ourselves. Now, my guest today wants to challenge that narrative. Melissa Dillman is an organizational psychologist, a former therapist, an author, and someone who works with leaders and organizations around the world on mental health, communication, emotional intelligence, and team dynamics.

Now, this conversation gets incredibly practical. We're going to talk about why leaders need permission to be human. We're going to dig into something that Melissa calls communicating capacity and essentially how simply telling your team where you are can completely change the way they experience you. We're going to talk about the difference between the things that truly require your attention and those.

Manufactured emergencies that consume way too much of it. And honestly, we're going to ask a bigger question. If our organizations are really serious about supporting employee well-being, who's supporting the leaders? This is a really good conversation, my friends, and I know you are absolutely going to love this. And somehow in this conversation, we even managed to work in an inflatable velociraptor and a Chewbacca impression.

Yeah, both of those firsts here on the Leaning Into Leadership Podcast, and you'll definitely have to stick around to the end for the Chewbacca impression. But first, a quick word from our friends at Hey Tutor. This episode of the Leaning Into Leadership Podcast is brought to you by Hey Tutor. School leaders, as your year gets underway, you already know the challenge. Every student walks through the doors with different needs, different strengths, and

Honestly, sometimes very different gaps in their learning. Your teachers cannot do all of that work alone. And here's why Heytutor is so great and can help you with that specific need. Hey Tutor partners with schools and districts to provide high-impact tutoring designed to give students the additional support they need in literacy, math, and other critical academic areas. And this isn't about adding another thing to your teacher's plates.

It's about creating additional capacity around them so students can get the targeted support they need while your teachers stay focused on the incredible work happening in their classrooms every single day. Hey Tutor is recognized with the National Student Support Accelerators Tutoring Program Design Badge, reflecting their commitment to research-based high-impact tutoring practices. So if you're looking for another way to support students, strengthen learning.

And create additional capacity for your teachers this school year? Check out my friends at Heytutor. Go to heytutor.com or hit the link down in the show notes. That'll let them know you heard about them here on the Leaning Into Leadership podcast. And now let's lean into this conversation. Let's lean into leadership with Melissa Dillman.

Darrin Peppard (00:00)

All right, my friends, welcome back into the show. My guest today, Melissa Doman. Melissa, thank you so much for joining me here on the podcast.

Melissa Doman, MA (00:09)

I am so happy we're finally doing this. It was quite quite the road to get here, wasn't it?

Darrin Peppard (00:15)

Yes,

it absolutely has been. so full disclosure, folks, Melissa and I met like I don't know, February or March, something like that.

Melissa Doman, MA (00:24)

Yeah.

Darrin Peppard (00:25)

And we have kicked the can on recording this episode probably four or five times. So really glad you and I finally get a chance to to connect. And and interestingly, I mean, we

Melissa Doman, MA (00:34)

Hundred percent.

Darrin Peppard (00:35)

probably live like 30 miles apart. You know, we probably could have done this in person, but but that's okay. So yeah.

Melissa Doman, MA (00:38)

Yeah. Yeah, for sure. Next time.

Darrin Peppard (00:42)

So so Melissa, let's do this. Let's maybe orient our leaders that are that are listening to the show into who Melissa is. Give a give a little a little bit of background.

Melissa Doman, MA (00:53)

Well, I like long walks on the beach and coffee. No, I'm just

Darrin Peppard (00:55)

Ha ha.

Melissa Doman, MA (00:56)

playing. No, I love coffee. Coffee is life. so I am

Darrin Peppard (00:59)

Yes, it is.

Melissa Doman, MA (00:59)

an organizational psychologist, a former therapist and author, and I teach companies leaders and employees the skill set and conversational literacy to talk about mental health, communication, and team dynamics at work. So my clients range from really large organizations like Google, Progressive, Estee Lauder, Dow Jones, to mid sized companies like the Orlando City Software.

Soccer club, the MLS team, to small companies and everything in between all around the planet. and I I love doing this work because I am just so sick of people saying that, these skills are important, these topics are important, and I go, what the hell are people supposed to do with that if you don't actually show them how to do it, the education, the skills, and and really look at it as core professional development as opposed to a nice to have.

Darrin Peppard (01:47)

Yeah, absolutely.

Melissa Doman, MA (01:48)

and

I do I do a pretty awesome Chewbacca impression. I do.

Darrin Peppard (01:53)

And that one I

have a feeling you're not kidding. That's there we go. Yeah.

Melissa Doman, MA (01:56)

No, I'm When I do workshops

and companies or or whatever it is, I kind of dangle it like a carrot at the end of the session. I go, if you're good class, if you interact with each other, if you interact with me, and you don't make me pull information out of you, I'm not above cheap tricks, and this will be your reward at the end of the session. And then you see all these adults look like children, and they're like,

Darrin Peppard (02:19)

yeah.

Melissa Doman, MA (02:19)

my god, yes! And I was like, Awesome. They'll they'll be well behaved and even if just for this, and I'll sneak.

Darrin Peppard (02:25)

There you go. Yeah. So so there's your teaser, folks. If you are good and you listen to the end of the episode, maybe, maybe Melissa will drop a little Chewbacca for us. So I think that's that is fantastic. And I I did not have Chewbacca on my bingo card for this particular episode. So I think it's I think it's a pretty cool addition to this. So so so let's talk about this.

Melissa Doman, MA (02:45)

thanks.

Darrin Peppard (02:48)

you know, you you mentioned former therapist, now you're doing a lot.

Of that core professional development, really leaning

Melissa Doman, MA (02:55)

Yeah.

Darrin Peppard (02:55)

into, of course, you're an author. you've written two books. I know we'll talk about it later. the new book,

Melissa Doman, MA (02:59)

Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Darrin Peppard (03:01)

Cornered Office, your your first book. Yes, you can talk about mental health at work, being re-released

Melissa Doman, MA (03:05)

Mm.

Darrin Peppard (03:07)

in September, which is really exciting.

Melissa Doman, MA (03:09)

Yeah.

Darrin Peppard (03:09)

So let's cut let's kind of lean into some of those things and what you said in your introduction that.

That how how we bring those skills forward, how we make them a core part of

Melissa Doman, MA (03:23)

Mm.

Darrin Peppard (03:24)

not only professional development, but how we lead is really truly important. So

Melissa Doman, MA (03:27)

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Darrin Peppard (03:30)

maybe, maybe start us down the path of how do we go from that's kind of a nice thing to

Melissa Doman, MA (03:36)

Yeah.

Darrin Peppard (03:36)

this is part of our organization.

Melissa Doman, MA (03:39)

You know, it's funny, I was doing a client workshop yesterday and we were talking about some pretty tough scenarios that they had been dealing with.

And the workshop was about emotional intelligence, intentional communication, constructive conflict. And I love talking about those topics. And yes, all those things impact mental health at work, but they're also, you know, individually very important. And so I was talking with this group of leaders and they were saying, We have the policies, we have the procedures, like we

know what to do and it wasn't followed. And I said, well, did the person communicating this, do you think they said it in in a helpful way or in the right way? Well, they're they're a leader. They should know how. I said, my question remains, did they did they have the the training or the understanding of how to communicate clearly and any of that, you know, wrapping the information in the delivery? And they were silent.

And I said, I understand that you have policies and procedures and yada yada yada, but if you don't teach people these core skills as part of professional development, especially as leadership development, the execution will fail. So, and it was quite a while ago, a number of years ago, where they were saying that even emotional intelligence, for example, part of which, you know, being aware of and managing mental health as a leader is a form of emotional intelligence, where they said a number of years ago by 2025.

Emotional intelligence would be the number one rated skill in the workplace. It is now 2026. So I think we have a narrative issue around these topics where folks are still seeing this as like optional, nice to have. And I go, well, the last time I checked, it is human beings working with each other. We're not even gonna go into AI right now.

Darrin Peppard (05:29)

Right.

Melissa Doman, MA (05:29)

And

they need to learn how to communicate with each other and be able to be transparent and you know I'm I could give 18 other examples. So help me understand how you're supposed to achieve anything without doing that functionally. I don't understand. And so when I put it like that, people go, well, when you put it like that. So yeah, it's core professional

Darrin Peppard (05:48)

Exactly. Yeah. Yeah.

Melissa Doman, MA (05:51)

development.

Darrin Peppard (05:52)

Yeah. Well, but I I think, you know, w what you're saying there, and this is this actually ties in a lot with the research I'm doing on my leadership teams book, the

Melissa Doman, MA (06:00)

Mm.

Darrin Peppard (06:01)

the the paradigm of leadership, the

Melissa Doman, MA (06:04)

Mm-hmm.

Darrin Peppard (06:04)

that core leader at the top of the org chart has

Melissa Doman, MA (06:09)

Mm-hmm.

Darrin Peppard (06:09)

evolved so much in let's say the

Melissa Doman, MA (06:11)

yeah.

Darrin Peppard (06:12)

last ten to fifteen years.

You know, no longer

Melissa Doman, MA (06:14)

Mm-hmm.

Darrin Peppard (06:15)

is it the I am the purveyor of knowledge, I am the person who you know does everything.

Melissa Doman, MA (06:22)

Mm.

Darrin Peppard (06:22)

Now we're much more in a leadership era where you will only go as far as the team that you have around you. And you cannot

Melissa Doman, MA (06:29)

Mm-hmm.

Darrin Peppard (06:29)

take your team anywhere without the skills that you are talking about. And it

Melissa Doman, MA (06:35)

Mm.

Darrin Peppard (06:36)

I think it it takes me to to a question that I wanted to ask that that really connects to your book, Cornered Office.

Melissa Doman, MA (06:40)

Mm.

Mm.

Darrin Peppard (06:43)

one of the things that you talk about in the book, and that I cannot wait to pull your string and let you go on this one is pushing

Melissa Doman, MA (06:50)

Ha ha

Darrin Peppard (06:50)

back, pushing back on the narrative that leaders eat last. Because I think it ties in exactly with what we're talking about. So, so no, we're not here to run over Simon Sinek, not in any way, shape, or form. But but

Melissa Doman, MA (07:05)

No, no.

Darrin Peppard (07:07)

let's talk a little bit about.

that paradigm shift.

Melissa Doman, MA (07:10)

You know, what I think about that sort of model, servant leadership, things like that, you know, I I I truly believe, and again, I'm not here to like railroad any of these folks who created really, really helpful education. I think that in theory, it makes total sense. Absolutely. In execution

Is where we have some issues. So when so in the book, there's a chapter about the leadership mental health archetypes, and I had a lot of fun creating those, or seven of them. And the way I tend to look at it is when I think about servant leadership or leaders eat last, and I go, help me understand how that's sustainable if

The leader is not allowed to be humanized. If they're not allowed to talk about their needs to be able to show up that way, if they're not encouraged to manage their own emotional and cognitive functioning as part of sustainable leadership, help me understand how they can be a servant leader. Help me understand how they can survive to eat last.

If they are dehumanized in their role, if they are criticized for speaking up asking for help, which is an emotionally intelligent thing to do, how does that work? Help me understand.

It doesn't is the answer. So I I think

Darrin Peppard (08:31)

Correct. Yeah.

Melissa Doman, MA (08:32)

that I'm not saying you have to pick one or the other. I'm saying they have to coexist at the same time. You want to be a servant leader? Great. I think that's fantastic. You you want to do the leader's eat last? Fine. But it has to exist alongside the narrative that sustainable leadership is built on emotional and cognitive management as a leader. I I literally logically do not understand how one can exist without the other.

Darrin Peppard (08:58)

Well, and and I would tell you that I was a walking example of that my first two years as a high school principal where I wanted to do everything for everyone to

Melissa Doman, MA (09:08)

Yeah.

Darrin Peppard (09:08)

my own detriment, you know, gaining forty pounds.

Melissa Doman, MA (09:11)

How'd that how'd that work out for you?

Darrin Peppard (09:13)

terrible. It was awful, right? You know. Fortunately fortunately

Melissa Doman, MA (09:16)

Yeah.

Darrin Peppard (09:17)

year three I I got a leadership coach and started to learn exactly, you know, what you're talking about that that,

Melissa Doman, MA (09:22)

Yeah. Yeah.

Darrin Peppard (09:25)

you know, and and to the point where I've even

Created my own definition of servant leadership. It's not about doing

Melissa Doman, MA (09:30)

That's great.

Darrin Peppard (09:31)

everything for everyone else. It's empowering

Melissa Doman, MA (09:33)

Yeah.

Darrin Peppard (09:33)

others to do for themselves. That's really what being

Melissa Doman, MA (09:35)

Mm.

Darrin Peppard (09:36)

a servant leader is. And

Melissa Doman, MA (09:38)

Yeah.

Darrin Peppard (09:38)

you're totally right. They they cannot work and coexist because the leader themself will essentially use themselves up to a point where they can't survive. And that's not even not.

Not just the mental health, it's the physical health. It's the, you know, yeah. Yeah.

Melissa Doman, MA (09:58)

yeah, the cognitive functioning, decision making, is everything. I

I'm actually doing some coaching for for a leader right now who did servant leadership to their detriment. And it has made some interesting leadership team dynamics. And I basically came in and was like, it's kind of good that things exploded because they can't continue this way.

And so it's you know, it's really easy to fall in love with an idea.

But then when you think about the practicalities of implementing it, it's not so rosy. And so I do think that those things need to to coexist. I mean, I'm a business owner myself. I have a team. Unfortunately for me, I practice what I preach. And so, you know, I I show up for them, like I do what I need to do, but I'm also very clear when my bandwidth has reached its end and when I cannot do, you know, what I need for myself, let alone for them.

And that we've created a culture in my team of, you know, she's she's doing that to reorient herself and to let us know so that any shifts in her behaviors or actions have nothing to do with us. Because we can't hold other people hostage by not letting them know where we are. Them

not letting us know where they are. And it happens all the time, especially in leadership. And we wonder in some cases, because some leaders are just assholes and they do bad things. But then there's other ones where they start acting out and rarely, if ever, do I see that the first reaction is curiosity.

It's not the first reaction. When a leader's acting out, the typical reactions from team members are anger, fear, whatever it is, because someone in a position of power is acting in a way they don't understand. And so the typical reaction is not curiosity. It's self-protection

Darrin Peppard (11:46)

Right.

Melissa Doman, MA (11:47)

and whatever that looks like.

Darrin Peppard (11:49)

Yeah.

Melissa Doman, MA (11:49)

So I'm like, well, I need to write something that talks about the quiet parts out loud. Because this, you know, and I'm clearly not making a mistake an excuse for bad behavior and leadership. Absolutely not. When you're in a position of leadership, you have a responsibility not to let your burnout roll downhill. Much easier said than done. But there has to be more

Darrin Peppard (12:08)

Very true. yeah, absolutely.

Melissa Doman, MA (12:11)

curiosity. I'm sorry.

Darrin Peppard (12:14)

No w no, please finish that thought. Then then I've got a question about that.

Melissa Doman, MA (12:17)

Yeah, there has to be more curiosity about these behaviors and leadership and what is the source.

Because they're not all bad. Some of them really are, a hundred percent. Some of them are soulless, like I'm not even gonna finish that sentence. But then there's other

Darrin Peppard (12:31)

Ha ha.

Melissa Doman, MA (12:32)

ones where we go, I wonder how they how they became that way. What is the culture? What is the messaging that they're getting? What are the beliefs they hold outside of the of the workplace about how they're supposed to act? You know, what what led them to this point? There's always a reason.

And so I think that exploring the the lack of permission to talk about managing emotional and cognitive health needs in leadership, I think that's I think that's part of the problem. And it what makes it even worse is these days when they're supposed to support the mental health of their teams and they're supposed to act like they're a different species. And that that that support structure should not be bidirectional between chronologically aged adults.

Darrin Peppard (13:13)

Absolutely. And you

Melissa Doman, MA (13:14)

Yeah.

Darrin Peppard (13:15)

just you just absolutely hit it on the head. And and I'm glad I'm glad you finished what you were saying before I asked my question because you kind of already went there. So this will be the perfect, perfect segue to this. I again I think about the team. I work with so many teams.

Melissa Doman, MA (13:29)

Yeah.

Darrin Peppard (13:30)

And yes, there is always kind of that org chart or that hierarchy or whatever within the team. This one is the leader of the team, and these are members of the team, but

You said the word permission, and

Melissa Doman, MA (13:42)

Mm.

Darrin Peppard (13:43)

that's what I really want to chase after. And maybe have you share some strategies, or even just one strategy, of if if I am the leader of my team,

Melissa Doman, MA (13:54)

Yeah.

Darrin Peppard (13:54)

and whether whether I know when I am I'm triggered, or perhaps my team members pick up on those things that are in my blind spots, but

Melissa Doman, MA (14:04)

Mm.

Darrin Peppard (14:04)

state to them, hey, Darren's triggered right now.

How do I intentionally give

Melissa Doman, MA (14:12)

Mm.

Darrin Peppard (14:13)

them that permission as members of the team to, for

Melissa Doman, MA (14:16)

Mm-hmm.

Darrin Peppard (14:16)

want of a better phrase, call me out

Melissa Doman, MA (14:19)

So and you know what's funny, what the term triggered, and how how commonly that's also used at work now. And

Darrin Peppard (14:27)

Yeah.

Melissa Doman, MA (14:27)

it it's f it's interesting because the the hist the historic

kind of lineage behind that word is connected to PTSD and prior to then called shell shock and it's just very openly used now in a lot of different places. So I think that being explicitly clear of a helpful way to notice when a leader is we'll say activated, or something is wrong, you know, people and you know this, people don't like to be told how they're thinking, how they're feeling, how they're acting.

So I'm a big fan of telling people. so I really think that letting the team know, hey, if I ever act in a way that feels confusing or it seems like I'm bothered, or

You know, something just feels amiss. You know, I don't want you to think that whatever's going on for me, that it you know, if it has something to do with you and it it doesn't

And I want you to let me know that I'm I'm seeming different and just to try and be curious to ask me, you know, is there something going on? Is there something I need help with? just be be curious. Say what you're noticing. don't come off as like accusatory or finger pointing because that won't go well for you. but you know, I when I notice that your behaviors are different, you know, I as your leader use the same approach and I want you to feel like it's okay to use the same approach.

with me. You know, in both directions, there's no forcing of telling what's going on, but leading with curiosity and care and offering, you know, support if it's desired, that should be able to be bi-directional.

Darrin Peppard (16:05)

Yeah, I love that. And and and it takes me to kind of my next my next question. So now that that was how do I how do I give my team the permission to say, hey, Darren, I'm noticing something a little different from you. Once once that happens and now I

Melissa Doman, MA (16:19)

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Darrin Peppard (16:21)

am aware, maybe I wasn't prior, and I know you talk about this in cornered office,

Melissa Doman, MA (16:28)

Mm.

Darrin Peppard (16:29)

what are some strategies that

That I can use that leaders can use to manage our own mental health while

Melissa Doman, MA (16:38)

Mm-hmm.

Darrin Peppard (16:39)

we are at work.

Melissa Doman, MA (16:41)

So I tend to focus on especially, you know, within the workplace, whether that's virtual, whether it's in person, I think that one of the best things you can do during work hours, and then I'll talk about something for outside of work hours, is focusing on on two things. So communicating capacity.

And I'll also focusing on what you can control and influence. So, with communicating capacity, I had heard a segment of an episode of a podcast that Brene Brown was on a number of years ago. And she was talking about this communicating capacity model that she uses with her husband. And I listened to it and I was like, why the hell are people not doing this at work? And it's it's you don't need a romantic relationship. This is just like how you communicate to other people what your capacity.

Is so they know how you're showing up and in a very concrete way. Now, obviously, there have to be exceptions to what I'm about to say, but if you are, let's say, looking at capacity from zero to a hundred, a hundred means I'm going on all cylinders, zero is I'm practically comatose, don't talk to me. Being able to self-assess where you are.

in that range. This is what I'm capable of. This is what I can't do. these are the things that can get pushed off. This is how I'm gonna explain it to people. This is why I'm going to accept where I am.

Now you have to have a shared value in the team that people will listen and honor the capacity. Again, understanding there are always exceptions. But how is your team supposed to know if you're operating at 40%? They're not thinking about your intentions and motivations. They're just reacting to your behavior. So communicating capacity and saying something like, Hey guys, I'm operating at like 30% today. I am not at my best. If I don't seem like myself, please do not take it personally. If I come off like an asshole.

please be gentle in how you tell me. These are the things that would be most helpful. These are the things I really I can't take on today. If you have any questions, please let me know.

It it really can be that simple.

Darrin Peppard (18:38)

I think that is

yeah. I mean that's just well, the the fact that that you can just put a name to it, put a number to it, put a this is where I am, one, I think there's so much value in being able to let the team know, look, here's where I'm at, this is what

Melissa Doman, MA (18:55)

Yeah.

Darrin Peppard (18:56)

I have today. Like this is how I'm showing up. But I think for the

Melissa Doman, MA (18:58)

Yeah. Mm-hmm.

Darrin Peppard (19:00)

individual, and this is this is kind of where I'm drawn listening to you talk.

That tells me it almost gives me permission not to

Melissa Doman, MA (19:08)

Mm.

Darrin Peppard (19:09)

underperform, not to not really show up, but to

Melissa Doman, MA (19:11)

No, no, no, no, no, no. No.

Darrin Peppard (19:12)

accept, okay, this is really where I am today. And that's okay. I don't have to be a hundred every single day. Now, if I feel like I'm a hundred,

Melissa Doman, MA (19:25)

No.

Darrin Peppard (19:25)

great, but if I'm showing up and I'm feeling, hey, I'm 30 today, it's okay, you know.

It that's what I'm

Melissa Doman, MA (19:34)

Yeah.

Darrin Peppard (19:34)

hearing you say is is I'm telling myself

Melissa Doman, MA (19:37)

Yes.

Darrin Peppard (19:37)

this is an okay thing. It's not it's not a detriment, it's not something negative about me, it's me acknowledging here's here's where I am.

Melissa Doman, MA (19:48)

Yeah, and and really just focusing on what are the mission critical things that need to get done and what are the things that are manufactured emergencies that can get pushed.

And people love to create manufactured emergencies. Now that gets into a larger, you know, workplace culture sort of thing. And there are some environments and some teams and some companies where the guidance I'm giving right now would never fly. And I'm I'm not twisted about that. But there are plenty of places where it would. Because I'm not saying, you can't get the basics done because you're at thirty percent. You have a job to do. So if there is the basic stuff you gotta get done, you gotta get it done. But if there are other things that can and should wait.

There there has to be the ability to vocalize that because if you're forcing yourself to dig in deeper than what you're able to, that rarely goes without consequence for yourself or others. And then for circles of control and influence from Stephen Covey from Steven Seven Habits of Highly Effective People, I love that model. I encourage people, especially leaders, to have the concentric circles like on their their cell phone circles.

screensaver, their their laptop, if you want to go analog, having it on paper on the wall. And then as concerns are coming up.

Basically writing the concern on a good old fashioned post-it note, putting it where you think it belongs, walking away for five minutes, coming back, putting it where it actually belongs, because we love to believe that we may have control or influence over something, and actually it's just something we're concerned about and can't directly influence. And being able to focus on that, and you have to do it consistently. It's like building any other muscle. If you don't, when you start focusing on things you're concerned about, which is not a health

Healthy

use of energy, as opposed to what you can control or influence, doesn't exactly do any favors for mental health or leadership style.

And then when it comes to stuff they can do outside of work, there's a term that I trademarked a number of years ago. And I like talking about it not because it's mine, but because people say it's actually helpful. So I feel that managing mental health is just as important as sleeping, eating, bathing, and breathing. Now I'm a little biased based on what I do for a living, but that is how I feel. And if we think about the wellness industry in general, which is this huge amorphous thing, generally

Generally speaking, they care, a lot of companies in the wellness industry care about converting humans to dollars. They don't care about personalization, execution, scientific validation. There are plenty of platforms that do. There are plenty of wellness services that are absolutely incredible, but a lot of them are crap.

So if the wellness industry is telling you to do certain things for your mental well-being that you don't like doing, what are the odds that you're gonna do it? So I always encourage people you gotta find at least one thing that you do for your mental health, barring cases of death, dismemberment, hell, high water, or illness, and I am not kidding. And do those things at a cadence that's realistic to achieve and do it consistently like your life depends on it. So for example, I'm a former therapist.

therapist meditation doesn't work for me yoga doesn't relax me I see it as exercise these are like sacrilegious things to say so my mental well-being non-negotiables are I go salsa dancing at least three times a month that's my meditation

when I had three surgeries on my left leg, which is basically a decorative limb now, dancing was a little hard. So my husband would put on salsa music, you know, in our house, and I would kind of like dance around on crutches during the pandemic, not exactly social distancing friendly. I was like, Well, we have hardwood floors, salsa music, and I have a mostly willing partner and my husband that'll have to do. So I you adapt. And then my other ones are I have to be in nature.

At least once a week. I live in Colorado, not hard to do. And I play with my dogs every single night, even though they treat me like human jungle gym, and I am covered in bruises. So, whatever it is, you want to go to a vinyl shop a couple times a month to rifle through records, fine. You want to get an inflatable Velociraptor costume off of Amazon and dance to ABBA, you know, on Saturday mornings in your living room. it is,

Do it and do whatever makes you feel good as long as it doesn't bring harm to yourself or others.

Darrin Peppard (24:13)

Yeah. Yeah, for sure. two thoughts on that. One, for me, it's it's the walk. It's being outside.

Melissa Doman, MA (24:19)

Yeah.

Darrin Peppard (24:20)

absolutely. I mean it's it's a daily routine, at least thirty minutes. I also live in Colorado. Very easy to do that. even

Melissa Doman, MA (24:28)

Yeah.

Darrin Peppard (24:29)

though it's really smoky here right now, it's rough. And then my second thought

Melissa Doman, MA (24:32)

I know, yeah, it is.

Darrin Peppard (24:35)

is the inflatable Velociraptor dancing to

Melissa Doman, MA (24:38)

I don't know.

Darrin Peppard (24:39)

ABBA was

Oddly specific. So I mean, there might be something there.

Melissa Doman, MA (24:43)

Cause you see all those videos on Instagram of people

like going to pick up people at the airport in like a T-Rex costume. I'm like, I wish I had the like mental capacity to follow through on something like that.

Darrin Peppard (24:56)

Yeah, yeah.

Melissa Doman, MA (24:57)

so it just looks really fun, you know? So I'm like, it does there's no weird answer. Do anything.

Darrin Peppard (24:59)

Yeah, it does. It does. We had a no, not at all. It makes

me it makes me think this is a total, total like squirrel chase here. And and if by chance my daughter listens to this ep this episode, she will absolutely start roaring laughing right here.

Melissa Doman, MA (25:14)

Okay.

Darrin Peppard (25:15)

We we had a neighbor when we lived in Nebraska, we lived in Omaha,

Melissa Doman, MA (25:19)

Mm-hmm.

Darrin Peppard (25:20)

and three kids, wonderful family, just adored them. They were they

Melissa Doman, MA (25:24)

Mm.

Darrin Peppard (25:24)

were our right next door neighbors and

Halloween late afternoon, Liz is backing her car into the driveway and up to the garage. And the youngest

Melissa Doman, MA (25:35)

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Darrin Peppard (25:37)

of the three had an inflatable Velociraptor costume. And he hit her

Melissa Doman, MA (25:42)

Nuh

Darrin Peppard (25:44)

car. Not she hit him with the car. He ran right into the car as she was like the side of the car.

Melissa Doman, MA (25:50)

my god.

Darrin Peppard (25:52)

Just trying to be a velociraptor. And of course, you know, fell f yeah,

Melissa Doman, MA (25:55)

my god, I'm dying.

Darrin Peppard (25:56)

yeah, it was hilarious, you know. He bounced right back

Melissa Doman, MA (25:59)

OOOOH

Darrin Peppard (25:59)

up. And I I sometimes I wonder if he even knew that the car was there. I don't know. But that's what it makes

Melissa Doman, MA (26:04)

God.

Darrin Peppard (26:05)

me think of. So sorry, real big squirrel chase right there. Yeah, yeah, I know. Well, and you took us there with the ABBA and Velociraptor. So

Melissa Doman, MA (26:07)

That's so funny. That's so specific. Like

Darrin Peppard (26:17)

So there's one more thing I want to get to before before I ask you the question that I ask everybody. let's let's now go one level higher, right? So maybe I'm the CEO, maybe I am the director of human resources for for a corporation, for a school district, something like that. And I'm thinking more global. I'm not, you know, yes, I'm gonna lean into what Melissa told me, I'm gonna buy her book, I'm gonna read all these strategies, I'm gonna take care of myself, but

Melissa Doman, MA (26:40)

Mm.

Darrin Peppard (26:41)

how do I, how do I

go from just focusing on me to putting systems in place so we can support everybody who's a part of our organization.

Melissa Doman, MA (26:53)

Honestly, using the stuff that's already in place and directing it at leaders. Literally. I talk about this in the book where I'm like, why in God's Green Earth is there not a leadership peer support network using the the ERG model? Why does that not exist?

Why is there not explicit call-outs for leadership, mental health, and talking about the tolls of leadership when organizations are already talking about mental health as a whole? Why is there not an explicit encouragement for leaders to use the employee assistance program to use these resources for themselves in addition to recommending it to their teams? All of these things are already there, but the leaders are the arbiters of the program, not the recipients.

And I'm like, it's all it's all there, guys. You just have to you gotta incl include

the people who are facilitating the usage of these resources and the encouragement of the resources. Like, am I alone in my principles here? And so I think especially when it comes to the the peer piece, it is so critical because leaders need to talk to other leaders who have sat in the chair. You can't just ask people who have never had those sorts of experiences to completely understand. You you can't ask that of them. You you can try to norm you can try to humanize yourself.

To them, and I highly recommend that that you are a human with limits and not just a symbol of stability. But also leaders have to be able to connect with each other because if anybody else can understand, it's other people in the chair. So that has to be an ongoing, dedicated effort, because this is a tough narrative to break. And

You know, especially when there's a lot of leaders doing a lot of bad stuff right now. And there always will be, but especially now when global trust is l at an all time low, you know, kind of fighting against the current.

Darrin Peppard (28:46)

Absolutely. No, I think that's I think that's absolutely fantastic. So leaders, hit hit rewind for about three minutes worth and just listen to that again and think about that. And and a piece that I am hearing Melissa say there, in addition to everything great she just said, is don't just tell them about it. You need to model it. So those resources are there for you.

you use them if you expect others to do it you should be doing it as well absolutely fantastic

Melissa Doman, MA (29:10)

Mm. Mm.

Darrin Peppard (29:12)

stuff here melissa let's let's do this we're at the at the point where i'm gonna ask you the same question i ask everybody here that's kind of my final question on on the podcast

Melissa Doman, MA (29:21)

Sure.

Darrin Peppard (29:22)

this is the leaning into leadership podcast so how are you leaning into leadership right now

Melissa Doman, MA (29:26)

You know, I'm the way that I'm actually leaning into leadership, in addition, you know, from my own team

is actually really showing up for other leaders, especially leaders who are self employed, like my s like me. I've had some really important conversations with them recently because especially in the entrepreneurial community, you know, leadership can be really lonely. And so the way that I'm showing up right now is by showing up for my fellow leaders. And I I did a coaching session with a leader was it yester I think it was yesterday. And

I had said to them, just because you own this business doesn't mean you're you're not allowed to have needs. And they said, say it again. And I said it again. And they said, Okay, now say it for yourself. I was like, Okay. So that that's what I'm doing is I'm leading into leadership by showing up for my leadership community in the entrepreneurial space.

Darrin Peppard (30:16)

I love that. Love that so very much. As as a leader in the entrepreneurial space, I gotta tell you how much I appreciate that. I think that's fantastic. And we

Melissa Doman, MA (30:23)

I am happy to hear that. Yeah.

Darrin Peppard (30:25)

we will at some point in time be sitting down and having a coffee together here, here not too far down the road. Yeah, yeah. Well boy, no kidding, right? Yeah, yeah, that's

Melissa Doman, MA (30:29)

yes, yes. Hopefully it won't take another five months.

Darrin Peppard (30:35)

that's that is for sure. So okay, so people people are gonna want

Melissa Doman, MA (30:37)

Ha ha ha

Darrin Peppard (30:40)

to actually be before we do that, I mentioned it earlier.

just really quick share with us a little bit. your first book is being re-released by Wiley. just give them a little a little taste of we've been talking corner and office the whole time. Give them a little taste about that one.

Melissa Doman, MA (30:50)

Yes, yes. Sure. Yeah. Yes.

Yes. And the the full title for Cornered Office is Cornered Office Why We Need to Talk About Leadership Mental Health, which is available across all major retailers. my first book came out in October of twenty twenty one. it's called Yes You Can Talk About Mental Health at Work, Here's Why and How to Do It Really Well. I know it's a very vague title. You've no idea what you're gonna get. it's being re-released by Wiley, kind of a second anniversary sort of edition. September twenty ninth of twenty twenty six.

It's got a brand new fancy cover and you know just a bit of tightened up content. It's really meant to be still a capture in time because it was written during in 2020 during the lockdown, when when the pandemic was happening, when when all these things were happening. So I didn't want it to not be that anymore. I wanted it to still be what it always was, but looking back on it and just being you know able to tighten it up a little bit and make sure it's even clearer.

For people to use. And the first book is really: here's this topic we all tend to misunderstand and have very deeply personal experiences with. And let's make sure we're all on the same page about what mental health is, what it's not, and also the purpose of talking about it in the workplace, what it is supposed to be, what it's not supposed to be in that conversation, what are the boundaries around that, how global systemic racism you know, was

Also being impacted, you know, for that conversation for certain affected communities, how the pandemic impacted that conversation, you know, heightened levels of global systemic stress, and just really saying, you know, this conversation needs to evolve based on the systems in which those conversations exist. And so going back and reading it now, and I was like, thank God my writing's improved. but also just seeing that capture in time was really special and being

able to make sure that you know it's as tight as ever being re-released this year five years later and you know having Cornered Office come out the same year that the first book is also being re-released is is really special. So that's also available right now for pre-order across all major retailers and will be available for purchase September 29th.

Darrin Peppard (33:07)

That's outstanding. I I know folks are gonna want to check that out. So

Melissa Doman, MA (33:10)

I hope so.

Darrin Peppard (33:12)

how how did they get in touch with you? How did they how do they lean in and learn more from Melissa Dominic?

Melissa Doman, MA (33:18)

So if you want me to come into your organization and talk about mental health, communication, team dynamics, and you know, use an occasional curse word here and there, I'd love to hear from you. my website is melissadoman.com. Reach out anytime. I also do you know, leadership coaching and team building off sites, fireside interviews, workshops, consulting. And you're welcome to connect on LinkedIn as well, which is my name Melissa Doman. And then on Instagram, it's at

The wandering Mel.

Darrin Peppard (33:48)

There we go. We'll make sure all of that stuff is in the show notes. Now, a

Melissa Doman, MA (33:49)

Yeah. Awesome.

Darrin Peppard (33:51)

bonus question. Have we earned a little Chewbacca? You thought I was gonna forget. No way.

Melissa Doman, MA (33:55)

god Sure Sure. Why

not? Are we also posting the video of this? god, I like don't even know how no,

Darrin Peppard (34:02)

yes, absolutely. Yes. Yes. Do you have a costume you need to get into? I mean, you know.

Melissa Doman, MA (34:07)

I just I I get self-conscious about how my face looks when I do it, but I'm just gonna close my eyes so like I don't see it.

Darrin Peppard (34:12)

Yeah. There you go. Yeah. And and we'll ask everybody who's watching

on YouTube, close your eyes while she does this. Okay. We'll make that yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Melissa Doman, MA (34:18)

No. my god, no. Okay.

Let me get a sip of water here.

I don't know why I do this to myself. Okay.

Darrin Peppard (34:25)

That is fantastic. That is the definitely the first Chewbacca impor impersonation

Melissa Doman, MA (34:28)

It's not the best in the world, but it's pretty decent.

Darrin Peppard (34:31)

here on on the show. So fantastic stuff.

Melissa Doman, MA (34:34)

I will take that title.

Darrin Peppard (34:35)

Yeah, yeah, that is wonderful. All right, man. This has been so much fun. Melissa, thanks for joining me here on the podcast.

Melissa Doman, MA (34:41)

I had so much fun, thank you.

All right, my friends, such a great conversation with Melissa. I don't know if I've laughed that much during a podcast interview in the 295 episode history of this show, but man, that was just absolutely a blast. Make sure you check out all of Melissa's work. Go down and hit the show notes link. She's got a brand new book that is out, and she has the re-release of her other book coming later this week. So hit those things down in the show notes. And now it's time for a pep talk.

So I think this ties in really well with this episode with Melissa, but I want to talk about something that I did yesterday. Instead of being in the office, instead of working, honestly, I moved a whole bunch of my meetings, changed around my schedule, my wife, my daughter, and I loaded up in the Jeep and we went to the mountains. Typically, not something I'm gonna do during the course of the week, but sometimes we just

need that release. In this episode, we talked about that that leaders eat last and and Melissa talked about really challenging that. Not not that it's wrong, but that at times leaders still need to make sure that we're fueling ourselves. And for me, that's what yesterday represented. It was an opportunity for me to step away. It was an opportunity for me to make sure that as I head into a very heavy travel schedule over the next few months,

I'm gonna have in the tank what I need in order to really pour into those leaders that I get to support. I found it refreshing, I found it eye-opening, and yet at the same time, anytime I do something like this, there's definitely a leadership connection. And it made me think a lot about the leaders that I hear talk about, this younger generation that are working in our schools, working in our offices, working in our corporations, and how.

They see X number of days that they're allowed to take off every year, and typically they take them. And I even had a leader say recently to me that this next generation, this most recent generation that is now coming into these roles, is not as dedicated. And I don't agree with that at all. I think this generation understands far better than any preceding generation.

That if we don't take the time for ourselves, if we don't take the time to really take care of ourselves, there's not going to be much of us left further down the road. So if you have some of those folks on your team, on your staff in your organization, and I'm certain that you do, and you're thinking some of those same things, like why are they taking their personal time off? Why are they taking their sick days or whatever it is that your organization offers to them, take a step back.

Don't necessarily judge, be curious, you know, not judgmental, and realize that more than likely there may be a step ahead of the rest of us in terms of saying, I'm gonna take care of myself, I'm gonna do the right things for my physical and mental well-being so that I can be the best person. I can be here when I am here. Just some food for thought, something for you to think about. I will tell you for me, I am a whole lot sharper and a whole lot.

more well refreshed by taking that day yesterday and might be something I do again not too far down the road. Hey that's what I've got for you this week, folks. Thank you so much for joining me here on the Leaning Into Leadership podcast. As always, rate, review, subscribe, get out there, have a road to awesome week.