Episode 286: Building the Bench - Growing the Next Generation of Leaders with Joshua Stamper

Darrin (00:00)

Hey everybody, welcome into episode 286 of the Leaning Into Leadership Podcast. This week on the show, I am sitting down with my friend Joshua Stamper. Now, if you're a regular listener to the podcast or you watch us regularly on YouTube, you know that every year, about this time, Joshua and I sit down and we do a special episode to kind of mark the kickoff or the beginning of that cycle that is the new school year. Well, it's that time.

And Joshua and I sat down this week and had a conversation really geared toward both leaders, but then also aspiring leaders. Our conversation really took an interesting turn when we started talking about how, as leaders, we have that moral imperative to continue to grow the next generation of leaders. And how we need to be really intentional about reaching out and identifying those potential leaders.

That exists in our systems. But then we decided to take it from a different angle. If you're the aspiring leader who's waiting for someone to come and tap you on the shoulder, what are some of the steps that you should be taking? How do you put yourself in a position where others notice you and see the leadership potential that you have? Folks, this is so much fun. Had a great time sitting down with Josh, so we're gonna waste no time. Let's get right to it with Joshua Stamper. All right, folks.

Darrin Peppard (00:00)

All right. Welcome to a shared episode as I have the phenomenal Darren Peppard with me as he's the host of Leaning Into Leadership. I, of course, Joshua Stamper, host of Aspire to Lead. And we do this annual shared conversation every single year. And Darren, I can't remember when we started. I feel like it's been at least three years in a row. I think at least three years, if not four. But if not four. You know what? It's it's become one of my favorite summer.

traditions is us sitting down together and recording a joint episode. So it's a lot of fun. I love it. Yes. So I think I'm a little early. I I was chomping at the bit to get you on here. And so I think typically we're we're you usually do it in August, but we're close. We're close enough to to have this combo episode and to talk about leadership. I wanted to throw this out here because I know you've been really stressed lately. I don't know if your audience knows

But you're going through a little bit of a transition and we have talked in the past about stress. Are you using any of those strategies right now? Well, let's see, as I'm sitting here drinking a cup of coffee. we're recording this. It's what, six thirty, six forty five in the morning. on my moving day. So I'm gonna I'm gonna do every stress exercise I possibly can. Probably do a little yoga and a little bit, some deep breathing. That's cool. yeah.

visualizing what success will be by the end of the day. But yeah, no, that's that that's a really good question. you know, putting putting the jokes aside. I think, you know, it's been interesting for me over the last three, four or five months with this whole transition that we've gone through with with moving from Omaha here to Colorado, living in a temporary space. Like I said, today we're actually moving into our new home, which

Finally, the construction is done and everything's all taken care of and and now we can we can get moved in. Managing stress has been it's been a challenge. And I think it's probably the most stress that I've had to manage, honestly, since being a school leader. And, you know, when when we think about the the levels of stress and and and and you know this too, right? I mean, it kind of goes in these flows where there are certain things that

Okay, I can I can breathe, I can relax. Like for us over the last couple of weeks, we closed on the house last Friday. That was a little bit of a stressor. final loan approval a few days before that. That was one that came off. And each time you feel the shoulders come down a little bit, but then there's something that brings this back up. And I think that's true for our school leaders. You know, right now we're recording this in July, and for most of them the shoulders are low because

You know, there's nobody in the building. everything smells like fresh floor wax, you know, that that incredible smell of of summer in a school. But they know too that those those stresses are coming and and it could be, you know, some of the ones I work with. It's one of the principals reached out to me last week. Hey, my AP just landed a principal job and I gotta hire an AP or

Hey, I'm still I'm still looking for two special ed teachers or w whatever the case might be, right? managing stress is unfortunately a part of leadership.

Yeah, so true, man. And I I obviously a couple we were just talking about this before I push recorders that, you know, I just went through a move too, but it's been three years now. I can't believe it. But from Texas to Colorado. And when you're moving across the state, there there's always something that's coming up that you haven't either planned for, or to your point, there's there's things that just pop up. and this happens in the school building every single day. that you have your to-do list or you have an agenda.

That you're gonna get done. And then of course it goes sideways very, very quickly, and that stress level rises quickly. And and so I think, you know, some of the things that we're talking through today are probably a little bit different in regards to topic, but I I wanted to bring it up because I think it's good because, like to your point, leaders are in a good mindset right now. You know, it's they may not be back in the building, they may be on the beach somewhere listening to this, which I hope they are, to get that right.

Rest and re relaxation, rejuvenation, right? All those words that they're hopefully getting their their body and their mind right for the beginning of school year, because once we get into it, I mean you know, it's go time and it doesn't really stop. Yeah, I think that's that's really well said. And and you know, this time of year, so many are they're finalizing their plans or maybe they've already developed the plan and now they're

starting into, you know, what are some steps we need to take to ensure that our plan can be successful this year. And, you know, there's that that old Mike Tyson quote, everybody's got a plan until they get punched in the face. And you're not going to get punched in the face in July. It's going to be August or September or, you know, something along those lines. I think one of the things I would challenge you to think in a slow way, because if you are laying on the beach while you're listening

This, I don't want stress you out, but be thinking about what are things that you can do, those steps you can take. Maybe it's agreements within your team that no matter what comes at us, we're not going to lose sight of what our plan is. We're not going to fall victim to just simply being reactive to what happens to come our way. Because once we do that, you and I both know this, that's when the

That's when the plan comes off the rails and you look up and it's March and you're thinking, yeah, all those things in our school improvement plan, we haven't touched those. You know, how are we going to scramble to get that done? And and then it's it becomes a checklist item. It's not, it's not even a plan anymore. So just be thinking about what are a couple of those things we can do to make sure that we pull ourselves back, even when things get crazy, to stay focused on really the work that matters.

Yeah, which is a great segue to what we're gonna talk about today because I think what we're gonna the topic at hand is something that matters. And I think it is something that falls to the wayside a lot. And as leaders, you get to the end of the year and maybe you're you're feeling down because of what you said, right? All these stresses, all these things popped up. It felt like whack a mole. You're just hitting the problem down constantly and really not focusing at the things that are going to build value, not only for this school year.

But in the future. And so this comes up, Darren, from a lot of different things. We we work with leaders all over the country, either through keynotes or coaching. I know you coach aspiring leaders, veteran leaders. I've got an aspiring leader cohort. And of course, we've done a lot of work on our campus and within our district in regards to building future leaders. So that's where I want to go with our conversation today. So really just answering this question: how do we develop future leaders?

And you have said something about building the bench, right? That that wonderful sports analogy. And if if we're looking at the landscape of education specifically with leadership, I feel like there's a lot of folks that are just kind of not even having that in their mind of being a leader. They're just like, nah, I'm good, not for me. And maybe it's because of the negative perception, maybe it's the role model that they have on their own campus. There there's a lot of reasons as to why people are like, nope, I don't I want to pursue that.

in the future. But for us as leaders, instead of doing the whole whack-a-mole situation, you know, what can we do to one identify the folks, but then also pour into them? Yeah, I think that's I I love this topic and I'm glad we're going to talk about this one today. As even just listening to you talk, there were a couple of things that crossed my mind in addition to the stuff that I already kind of prepared for before we jumped on. first and foremost,

I think as leaders, we have a moral obligation to grow the next generation of leaders. And that's just simply a part of leadership. And it's oftentimes the one like you said that that gets overlooked the most because we get into the fray and we're just so focused on everything else that we don't think about tapping into that potential that exists on our campus. And it's true on every single campus. And it it takes me back to

that moment in time for me. You know, I I was one of those people like you were talking about that like, I don't I don't think I you know have any interest in in going into leadership. What what pulled me into being an educator was I wanted to be a head basketball coach. And you know, I was kind of on my way in that direction and finished my master's degree and just wasn't really sure, you know, I in fact I even looked at it Josh like like it was two different

Options. I can go into coaching, I can go into leadership. Well, as a head coach, I was a leader, but didn't think about it. But I was really fortunate and this is this is kind of the piece that I want to start with and and maybe have you chase it after I talk about it just a little bit. But it's that tap on the shoulder. You know, somebody for you, I guarantee it, tapped you on the shoulder and said, Josh, you gotta think about leadership. I had that moment too. It was

my first principal, Betsy Parker, still to me one of the greatest mentors I've had in my entire career. And she said something to me, I think it was between year two and three. one day in the hallway during the summer, she just said, you know, hey Darren, I I want you to think about, you know, pursuing leadership as as a career. And I mean for me, Josh, nobody'd ever talked to me about being a leader, ever. So as leaders now

And I was really intentional about this as a building administrator to seek out those people, you know, to keep my eyes open for who might be somebody down the road that we can grow into a leadership role. What about you? What what was that that tap on the shoulder moment like? Yeah, I just put on the banner for those who are watching YouTube, this point of identifying leadership potential early and

I was laughing because our journeys are very similar, Darren. And I don't know how we haven't talked about this more as far as our backgrounds. But yeah, it was after my third year of teaching. And I was viewed on campus as just this young art teacher in the corner. Right. And and I had a mentor teacher just was like, you know, essentially put your head down and do your job and don't be seen or heard by admin. That was kind of the idea. And so I had a wonderful assist principal.

Chris Tobler. He was young, very inspirational as far as my leadership journey. And yeah, I was I just had started to become a coach, a football, basketball, and and track coach. We were barely into the football season, but I guess I had done enough on the campus to to show that I had some influence of some sort and that I had leadership potential. And so that identification was through Chris to come in. I was literally trying to get some coffee. Just it was super early in the morning, it was dark.

know I was trying to get to the locker room before my my students had been there because in Texas you gotta start practice early because the heat and so I had no idea. I I literally was just trying to get caffeine in my system. And he came out of nowhere and had this really important question of have you ever thought of becoming a principal someday? And my response was just laughter because I was just like what are we doing here? Like no

Just let just let me get my coffee. Let me get my coffee. Yeah. But what I didn't understand was like that was a huge crossroads and I wouldn't be talking to you right now on this podcast, Darren, without that conversation. Isn't it amazing how vivid that memory is for you? Because mine the exact same way. I could go to the exact spot in in the building at Kingman Junior High.

Now came in middle school where Betsy had that conversation with me. I mean, it is vivid. Because you're right, those are crossroads moments and it's those types of intentional actions. You know, just listening to your story, I know that I think you said his name was Chris. Chris came to work that morning thinking, I need to have this conversation with Josh. Betsy did not have that conversation with me in passing.

That wasn't just on a whim. That was she had that in her head. And so it's being intentional to look for that potential early on in people. And I had a he's now a superintendent and I I work with with his district, but this at the time high school principal's name is Dr. Dan Hornick, he's a superintendent in Orange County, Virginia.

Dan was principal at Stafford, North Stafford High School in Stafford, Virginia. And he reached out to me. It was actually the summer that I started full time into what I do now. And he said, Darren, I want you to come in and work with our leadership team, but not specifically for our team. I want you to facilitate our group because we need to, and it was his phrase we need to build our leadership bench.

Our bench is empty. And we spent a day and a half on some leadership work, but ultimately at the end of our work, they had pretty much this like roster of individuals on their campus that they had, it was it was almost like an MTSS process, right? Like like here are our tier one potential leaders, here's our tier twos and our tier threes. And in their case, the tier three was we have to get these people involved now.

What's what's interesting is three or four of the people who were on that top tier three list, they're all building administrators now. One was actually a state assistant principal of the year this past year. So when you're intentional about the work, and in and in Dan's case, and it's just the type of leader he is, you put a real focused effort on identifying who those leaders are.

Man, you've got a great opportunity to go and grow as opposed to, and and I'm gonna give you full credit for this because you said it before we hit record, just saying, Hey, go cover the basketball game. That's not growing leaders. it's so true. I'm gonna bring up a a cohort opportunity that I had that I love because of this identification piece. And it was different than what I've seen other districts do, similar to what you were talking about with your like your tiers and identifying, because I I think we just kind of

Okay, who's got their masters? Let's let's just like lean on them for the basketball game or whatever, right? usually it's the task that we don't want to do that we're trying to shove off onto someone else. Right. But like for this cohort, what the district realized, and this was led by HR, was the sense that okay, we have people leaving and we have nobody to your point on the bench. And so now we're having to pull from other districts. Well, what does that mean financially? It actually means that we're having to pay a lot more money.

To then get them onboarded. We have to find them right then, hire them, then onboard them. And that costs a lot more money than pulling them straight from our organization. So what they decide to do is a pilot program on the west side of our district, because it was a super large district in Texas. And myself and a couple of other APs were tasked with building this aspiring leadership cohort.

Which, if I didn't have that experience, Darren, if I'm being honest, this podcast would not exist because it was so successful over two years, it was actually taken from us from the district, and the district then ran it for the entire district versus just the west side. That being said, is the identification process was every principal, every secondary principal on the West Side got to identify two or three potential leaders. Now I say that because a lot of times when we think about building for the future, it's like, okay.

What instructional coach? What team lead? Like someone that already possesses a title is who we're going to build up. And this was different, which was just looking at the traits. What are the leadership traits that these emerging leaders potentially have that we've identified to pull into this? Because the idea wasn't that we're building future administrators, we're building future district leaders, right? So the mindset was shifted, right? So we're looking at

People that take initiative, that are curious, that are problem solvers, right? They have all these abilities to influence in some way on their campus. Principal identifies them, and maybe they have zero title to their name, but they think they will eventually end that, right? So to your point, putting them in this cohort, they went for a full year that we built out. All of them got promoted. They all did, right? And I'm saying that in the sense that.

Maybe it was just promotion on their campus, right? For the first time they became a leader on their campus, or some of them were leaders then and moved up into AP roles or district positions, right? So all of them had moved in some way. And that was because the principal identified and had that crucial conversation of I believe in you. I see these traits and I think you should be in this program. And it was like I I

I have chills right now because I remember the impact that it had on these folks and it totally changed the trajectory of their careers. So I wanna ask more about that. And I'd I'd love to have you just go a little more into this because I think I think there's so much power in this. So obviously

One piece probably had to be they felt more confident in their work because number one, somebody had said, Hey, I see this in you, I believe in you. Two, they probably not only were more competent confident, but more competent because I have a feeling you were very specific in terms of let's make sure they get exposed to this and this and this, as opposed to

Hey, go cover the band concert because I can't get anybody to do it. And then three, they they probably were seen differently by others, not only in the building but in the district, which gave them a leg up when they went and sat at the interview table. So I don't know, pick any of those three, all three, whatever, but but chase that because I just think that's really powerful.

Well, I think we've been kind of hinting at this, Darren, with like the the covering the basketball or football games, right? Because I I can think of a lot of people, and I do this with my cohort group, my spider league cohort group is like the first thing that we do is like, let's let's identify the things that you've done as a leader, right? So I have a whole PDF that they go through as far as like identifying what those things are. And typically it's it's very low hanging fruit that they're that they're pulling from.

Right, as far as their experiences. And so it's like, okay, is that really the only thing that you have on the resume or to speak to in an interview? And so for us, like let's flip it right and do some backwards design as the leader. What growth opportunities are you actually providing on your campus? And so for us building it out, it was like we have a whole day, right? We're we're pulling these people off their campus for a full day or setting them up on someone else's campus because we want

Get them in an uncomfortable space, but we also want them to be introduced to potentially a high school setting that they may not have ever experienced before. Right. And as you know, if we get pulled in for an interview, we might be sent to elementary, middle school, or high school. It's just dependent on the district. And so if they haven't had any experience in those settings, you know, that's not gonna help them at all. The other thing, too, is like the growth opportunities is that we want to make sure that they were.

Being in a setting where they were going to be able to talk to other leaders, they're going to be able to collaborate with the group that was there with other responsible leaders, and then also get real opportunities to do something that's in line with either a district leadership position or campus leadership decision. And so giving those those different activities to make sure that they're doing that. And then to your to your other point, too, is they got a ton of FaceTime. They got a ton of FaceTime with other principals.

Other district leaders to say they are so valued that they're being put in this program to be built up. And so, you know, when you're around these district leaders multiple times throughout the the year, I think there's some comfort too. Instead of it's the first time that you've ever met them, it's the first time that you're sitting down with them. that that can be super stressful in an interview process, or I think.

The participants had some confidence that we're gr was growing throughout the year too, of understanding of like, not only am I identified, but I'm getting real opportunities here. And my confidence is growing as the program is is moving forward that I start to believe in myself that I can do this work, that I can, you know, put together a resume, that I have potential to move into a different role the following school year. So I think the growth opportunities that were presented to them, I think was huge because.

To your point earlier, it's not just, you know, doing something with the textbooks or with lockers or something that's really just grunt work. It's not really gonna lead to their development and growth as a aspiring leader. Right. Absolutely. So so I think I I love every bit of that. Let's let's maybe flip it now. We've we've been talking about for the leaders out there. Here are some things you could do to to grow those aspiring leaders. Now let's actually talk.

about the aspiring leaders. So maybe I'm in a in a district that doesn't have a cohort program or I don't work for somebody like a Dan Hornick who is actively building the bench. What are some things I can do? And something that you said there is where I want to begin. And you didn't say it overtly, but it made me think of this. And I'm going to start with a disclaimer. This quote will probably not sound right.

If you are a classroom teacher, but I'll explain it. One of one of my very favorite quotes, Nick Saban, longtime coach, football coach in a lot of different places, but he'll be remembered for his work in Alabama. He said once, sit with the winners, the conversation is different. Now, I'm not saying one is a winner and one is not. Not my point. My point is.

When you, as an aspiring leader, have the opportunity to sit in conversations with the administrators, with the leaders, the conversation is different. Not that one conversation is negative and one is positive, but rather the topics of the conversation are different. When you sit at that interview table, when you sit in the hot seat, having an opportunity to have

been a part of those conversations will help prepare you. It may not seem like it, but it genuinely does. The conversations that school administrators have are different because the topics are different than a group of teachers sitting together. Or honestly, district administrators, their conversations are different. So I hope I explain that quote well enough to not offend anybody with that. My point is

If you are an aspiring leader, find a way to be a part of some of those conversations because you're going to learn things simply by listening or even asking questions in that conversation that will help that will help you be a little bit more prepared when the time comes for you to sit in the chair. Yeah, I want to speak to that too. I think it's a great point, Darren, is that and y maybe you saw this is that on my campus as

As a building leader, I had aspiring leaders. They would come to me at the beginning of school year and they'd be like, you know, I'm so excited. I want to become a leader someday. And we you'd have a conversation, you went well. They're jazzed, they're excited for this new school year. And then I never saw them again. Like literally, I maybe once a month I would see them in passing. But as far as you know, everything that we had laid out for the school year for opportunities.

They were never present. And so I would just say, like, if you're an aspiring leader and you're listening to this, you need to be visible and you need to be available and you need to keep knocking on that door because that door is not going to open by itself. And so I think what you're saying is is so true. I can think of a hundred different meetings that I was a part of that first year, right? After Chris talked to me, I was in the master's program the next month. I was going through and I was trying to get as many opportunities as possible.

And I was in front office every single day. Every opportunity I had, I was in the front office. And I was just chomping at the bed of like, what can I do? What can I do? And to be honest, my principal at the time, Ann Aston, she gave me more opportunities than I deserved. She opened the door to a lot of meetings and a lot of opportunities that I had no business being into based on my title, based on my experience. But she had belief in me. And so she wanted to create like real opportunities. And so with that, yeah, I got to

be a fly on the wall for so many amazing meetings, either with the admin team or crucial conversations with parents or with teachers. Like there were so many times that I was just in the back taking notes of what was going on and what are some things that I didn't want to forget in the future. So that way I was prepared the day that I did become a leader. Yeah, no, I think that's really, really important. And that that brings to my mind the how you show up every day.

You know, if maybe you do work in an administrative situation or or in a building, you know, that the leaders are actively looking for and trying to grow the bench. How you show up every day, not only what what you're saying, yes, get up there, ask for opportunities, follow through, be present. I would add to what you said, bring some potential solutions to the table when you know that there's

There's a struggle or a challenge that the team is trying to work through. But I think back on my master's cohort, the group of people that I went through my master's program with, a lot of them, like me, were coaches, or, you know, they they were very clearly striving for opportunities. And there were a handful of them that never got the opportunity. I think a big part of it.

had to do with how they showed up in staff meetings, how they didn't put themselves in position to, you know, maybe take on some things. They were more being that thermometer pointing out what what's wrong versus the thermostat bringing solutions to the table. So how you as an individual show up every day, I I'm sure you've heard this before. I'm sure our listeners have have heard this before, but

Every day is a job interview. And if you're showing up in a way that maybe you're that one who's, you know, stirring things up or or or causing some problems or, you know, just sitting in the back of the staff meeting not paying attention.

Why I I'm not very likely to want to bring you on into a leadership role, or for that matter, if another building has you for an interview, they're gonna call and ask me. I I may be less inclined to say, yeah, if that's how you show up every day. You can't just simply flip the switch. I worked with a guy who I was an AP at the time, he was one of our teachers, and he showed up to a professional development day once.

put his feet on the desk and opened his newspaper and then was shocked that he didn't land an administrative role. Like you have to think about how you show up.

so true. So this is going to go into my next point because we've kind of touched on this too, is that I think once we identify the folks that have potential and we start to give them some opportunities, their journey is not going to be perfect, right? Their decision making is not going to be perfect. Even if they're professional to your point, they're they're showing up, they're they're trying their very best. But I do think as leaders on campuses or in the district, we need to make sure that we're we're mentoring them and then coaching them up too. Because

I know for myself going through that, I thought I knew how to be a leader. I thought I knew how to be successful in the tasks that were provided to me. But I'm gonna be honest, Aaron, I I messed up a lot through that process. And it was great to have a mentor. shout out to Sandra Pegram, my AP at the time and eventually my principal at a different campus. But she was amazing at letting me experience something I didn't.

I wasn't perfect, obviously, but then bringing me in and having those conversations of what I could have done differently, having some reflection time. This is how I would have handled it, or this is what I've done in the past, right? And and really just setting the table for me and allowing big chunks of time. If I'm being honest, some of these conversations were 30, 45, 60 minutes long of just her pouring into me. And it was so

beneficial. Like the value of that was better than anything I did in the master's program. It was better than anything that I got as far as opportunities. It was it was so rich as far as the information. And I just hope everyone that's a leader that's listening that you have a mentorship opportunity where you can pour into the future and and have those conversations. You know that is such an important point. And

You know, I kind of went a little bit, you know, on the dark path with, you know, hey, don't do this and don't do that. But you're still gonna make mistakes to your point. And I know I did it too. And and here's the other thing too, Josh, it doesn't it doesn't automatically get fixed or you don't get a, you know, hit the the restart button when you do land that first role. You're still gonna make mistakes and you still need to have those people who can be your mentors and

I mentioned, you know, Betsy is as that big mentor for me, the one who tapped me on the shoulder when I moved into my AP role. Mike Lopiccolo, our assistant superintendent for HR. What an incredible mentor. Shout out to Mike. He there I made mistakes, man. I really did. But having those deep conversations, like you're talking about, those 45 minute, hour-long conversations where it's not.

You know, I'm gonna spank you on the hand, but rather let's talk through this. You know, what what what were you thinking right here? And you know, if you had the opportunity to do it again, what might you do a little differently? As opposed to just simply saying, well, here's what should have done. So I think for our leaders now, maybe back on that side, that you are trying to grow the bench and you're trying to grow those other leaders, those people who you're seeing that potential.

They'll make mistakes in their classroom. They'll make mistakes as a coach or as a sponsor or you know, what have you. Find the opportunity, be intentional to sit down, have those conversations and really, really have those conversations from a coaching perspective, not from you know, that supervisor, you know, corrective action kind of direction, unless it's, you know, absolutely, you know, necessary. But

I think the more that that you can do what you're talking about there, Josh, have those mentoring conversations and and then as the individual really reflect on those. And that's that's where the real growth happens, right? for sure. I was thinking, Darren, too, I it was growth for both of us, you know, because sometimes we get in our our leadership role and we just kind of go through the day without really reflecting on stuff. But like I'm thinking there was

very specific mentors that I was trying to grow that I to your point, right? They're on top of my list on my campus. Like this person needs to to go. They're they're ready. But I would pull them from their classroom, right? Give them a sub and then I just have them shout out me for the day. Right. So, you know, if my radio is going off and there's a student discipline issue that's happening in a classroom, it's like, okay, both of us, let's go. And then we're walking through that. And after we're done with the student, then that's the coaching opportunity, right?

What did you do well? What could have been done differently? You know, or I'm the one that's handling it because it's escalated, right? So I'm handling it, I'm getting the student you know, settled down and either give them consequences, get them back to class, whatever the situation might be. and then it's like, okay, let's break that down, right? What did you notice? What did you observe? What are some things that were good? What would you have done differently? Right. We're working through all that. Maybe it's going in the classroom doing an observation and they're taking notes, I'm taking notes, and then it's us sitting down at the table and I'm working through that as far as.

You know, here's the rubric, how would you score that? And walking through that process. You know, it could be a tough conversation with parents and either they're leading it, I'm leading it, right? So we're giving them opportunities to either observe or be the main person. But I think the the reflection piece, that coaching, right? I think that a lot of times we just assume that, okay, when I get in that position, it's gonna be awesome, I'm gonna do great. And instead it's like, no.

It regardless of what it is. If I'm sitting down at a piano for the first time or I'm on the soccer pitch for the first time, you're you're gonna make mistakes. And the idea is that you have a coach there to build you up and and to work on those skills. And so that's the same thing as with education. And so I I'm just hoping that everyone that's in a leadership position has the opportunity to not only mentor and have those those conversations, but actually be the coach on the sideline and you know, provide the skills that they need because

I don't know about you, Darren, but my goal was if I had great people on my campus, I wanted them to move up and out, not to stay stagnant. Absolutely. I think that's huge. And and maybe this will be the final point that I'll make. our our time is starting to to wind down. You said something there kind of in passing, but I don't want to let it get away. We've talked a lot about, you know, how do you find different opportunities and, you know, whether that's opportunities for them to do meaningful work.

or opportunities for reflection. That being in classroom piece, to me, it's one of the most overlooked, but it's the most important part of the work. So when we're when we're growing our leaders, when we're trying to find opportunities, take them along for some classroom visits. You know, so many of the leaders that I work with now struggle initially with that.

Going into the classroom part, right? I'll give you a simple example. One of the schools I support in Omaha, Nebraska, this past year, high school, 2500 kids. One of the assistant principals was Brandon. He was a con a self-contained special education teacher. We're in an AP Spanish classroom. And he said, How do I get this teacher feedback? I mean, in in his classroom, it was

you know, it was life skills and and some of those things and here are, you know, A P Spanish students and

That's where you have an opportunity to mentor. That's where you have an opportunity to help those aspiring leaders kind of overcome that imposter syndrome of, you know, AP calculus class. How in the world do you help somebody with AP calculus? You don't have to know their content to know good pedagogy. So take them along. I'm getting on a soapbox here because I think it's just so stinking important.

Take them along with you. And when you step in the hallway, ask them, not necessarily, hey, what did you see or what stood out? But what were you looking for? And what might be one or two questions you would have for the teacher that we were just in the classroom with? That's a big way that you can help them overcome that imposter syndrome. You don't have to tell them what to do. Just ask them, you know, tell me, tell me about this or

Really curious why you do this. That will help them overcome some of that too. So that instructional leadership piece always gets kicked to the side because we want to respond, we want to go do this and go do that. But that instructional leadership piece is so important. So great opportunity to give them growth opportunities, to allow them to be seen as a leader and to have those those conversations.

around reflection. So I I didn't want to let that one get away. No, it's so important, Darren. I you're right. It it does get miss. And also our aspiring leaders, they're watching what you're doing. They're they're they're computing in their mind what are the most important things to do as a leader. And so if if your butt's not in classrooms, then they don't see they're not going to see value in that. But as we both know, Darren, that's that's a driving force of everything in that school building for

you know, principals to to make sure that they're getting the classrooms. And so you need to make sure that you're modeling that, but then also to your point, give them opportunities to to get in there, understand what they're looking for, and knowing that it's such a crucial part of the job. Yeah, absolutely. Well and and that's an also an opportunity to model how you give feedback and coaching to to a teacher. because that's one of those things. I don't know about you.

Nobody modeled that for me. Nope. especially when I was a high school teacher. Man, I if a principal came to my classroom was like, What do you need? Like, why are you here? Yeah. And obviously times have changed. And so the more you can model that for them, you're right. Your aspiring leaders are watching you. So model the right work. Yep. All right, Darren.

I I'm looking at the time. I know we could talk for several more hours because it's just so easy. But my friend, it's been such a great conversation. I love getting on here with you. I want to shout you out. I know you have a couple websites, so I'm gonna throw that out on the screen for for my audience because if you haven't connected with Darren, make sure that you do that immediately. He is not only an amazing leader, but he's also a fantastic person. So Darren Pepper.com is one of his websites. He's also got a

Beautiful publishing company, roadawesome.net. So Darren, you've got a a growing catalog. I I keep seeing more and more of my friends writing for you, buddy. Yeah, absolutely. So I don't know if you want to speak. We've been very blessed there. Yeah. You know, it's been pretty amazing. You know, we we started that work just over five years ago. And you know, we're coming up on on our 50th book that that that we'll release later this year. And it just continues to grow our

our our latest release, Dr. Chris Culver's book, Be the Light, yeah. Absolutely stellar. I've read it. It's so good. He's an absolute rock star. So yep. no, I appreciate that. And and folks, for those of you watching and listening on the Leaning Into Leadership platform, Josh, if you throw your stuff up there on the screen as well since you're you're driving and I'm not, I tell you folks, if you're not already connected.

To to Josh, if you're not already listening to Aspire to Lead, make sure that you are. Make sure you get connected with Josh, the work that he is doing, not only with helping leaders grow through coaching, through keynotes, but the partnership, and you can see it over his left shoulder there. his partnership with Charlie Peck, a really, really close mutual friend of ours, the language of behavior. Man, if if you're struggling at all.

in your building in your district with challenging behaviors. We certainly have seen that escalate over the last handful of years. The approach that Josh and Charlie have taken where behavior is communication, not just something to dole out consequences. It's so powerful. Folks, I I teach a classroom management course at Fort Hay State University, and I use Josh and Charlie's book.

It is that good. Check it out. Check them out. Absolutely stellar stuff. Josh, this man, this is so much fun. I'm glad we do this all the time. just love hanging out with you and I know. Now we're both in the same state. So dude, I I can't even tell you how excited I am that we are so much closer. yeah, living in in Colorado. So definitely check us out on social media because there's probably gonna be some opportunities

That we'll we'll be in the same space. for sure we're gonna be together in Florida later this year and can't wait for that. Maybe we can even do maybe a little update. Maybe we can do a quick bonus episode or something like that. That would be super fun out in Tampa. But yeah, Darren is such a special person that I try at least once a year to be in his presence. So that's that's how important it is. So I I value this time. I value this time. I value

Just all the things that you're doing in education. You're a rock star, my friend. And yeah, I can't wait again for our our annual meetup, our our joint episode. as I know it's gonna come up quick that we'll be back together in a year to do this show. So thank you so much for jumping on here and doing some collaborating on the podcast. Yeah, yeah, likewise, man. This was so much fun. I know both of our audiences absolutely got a ton of value out of this. Awesome, my friend.

Man, that was just so much fun. I love sitting down with Josh. When he reached out and said, hey, it's time for us to do this episode. I could not wait to jump on and do a recording for him. And by the way, if you didn't already know this, this is an episode that actually got shared on both of our platforms. So this is both on Aspire to Lead and on the Leaning Into Leadership podcast. So if you haven't already connected with Joshua, make sure you get down there in the show notes and get linked up with him. Josh is one of my all-time favorite people. So make sure that you get connected with him.

And now it's time for a pep talk. So leaders, I just want to lean into something that I said during this particular episode. I talked about how as leaders we have a moral imperative to grow the next generation of leaders. And and it's something that I just truly, truly believe. I I think it's one of those genuine things about leaders that if you're doing it right, you have all of these victories that come through other people's success.

because you were a part of their leadership journey. I mean I think about the work I do now leaning into so many other leaders. I mean the wins that I get are the wins that they have. I look at the leaders that I've worked with through the course of my career, whether that was my coaching career or my assistant principal principalship and even my superintendency. And I look at all of the individual leaders now and what they have done and what they have accomplished.

So many of them went on to being head coaches or building principals or even superintendents. And it's exciting to see their work. You know, if you're a sports fan like me, you hear all the time about a coaching tree. You know, whether that's the coaching tree from maybe Bill Parcells in the NFL or John Wooden in basketball. You know, you think about some of those all-time great coaches and the other coaches who have come from there.

Particular systems. That's exactly true of leadership in the work that we do every single day. Continue to find those people, continue to tap them on the shoulder because you never know how you can help unlock that potential and ultimately see incredible success for them in their career. Hey, that's what I got for you this week, folks. Thanks so much for joining me here on Leaning Into Leadership. Get out there, have a road to awesome week.