Episode 282: The New School Leader's Playbook with Erika Bare & Tiffany Burns

Darrin (00:00)

All right, my friends, welcome into episode 282 of the Leaning Into Leadership Podcast. My guests on the show today are Erica Bear and Tiffany Burns. Now, if you've recently accepted your first leadership position, congratulations. Take a moment, celebrate it. You've worked incredibly hard to get here. And then take a deep breath, because very soon you'll discover that leadership isn't just about vision statements, staff meetings, or walkthroughs.

It's about the conversations you didn't see coming, the interruptions that will consume your calendar, and the constant challenge of deciding what deserves your attention. The leaders who thrive aren't the ones who have all the answers. They're the ones who prepare well, surround themselves with great people, and approach every challenge with intention instead of reaction. And that's exactly what we're going to dive into today. Now, before we do that, I want to take a moment and thank our sponsor, Hey Tutor.

You see, at Hey Tutor, preparation is at the heart of everything they do. They're more than just a tutoring provider. They are a true partner for schools committed to helping every student succeed. As an NSAA badge recipient for high-quality tutoring, Hey Tutor delivers personalized literacy and math support that closes learning gaps and produces measurable results. And just like great school leaders build systems that help teachers and students thrive.

Hey Tutor provides districts with the targeted support and consistency needed to create lasting academic growth. To learn more about how Heytutor is helping schools across the country create better outcomes for students, visit the link down in the show notes or go to heytutor.com. Now, let's talk about one of the biggest transitions in education: going from teacher to leader, and how you can navigate the tough conversations, protect your time, and build a leadership career.

That's intentional from day one. Let's get into this conversation with Erica Bear and Tiffany Burns. I'll see you on the other side.

Darrin Peppard (00:00.75)

All right, my friends, welcome back into the show. Today, I've got two fantastic educators here having a conversation with me. We're gonna talk, man, we're gonna really lean into more than just talk. We're gonna lean into those early career leaders, those of you that maybe are just now finding out you've landed your first administrative gig, and very soon the excitement is gonna wear off and the terror is going to start to settle in. And we're here.

to help you through that and to coach you through a couple of maybe some of the things that might end up taking away some of your time or taking up a lot of space in your brain so that, hey, you can go and have as successful of a first year as possible. So before we do all of that, Eric Kabir, Tiffany Burns, welcome into the Leaning Into Leadership podcast.

Erika Bare (00:55.85)

Well, thanks so much for having us. We're thrilled to be here.

Tiffany Burns (00:58.872)

Thanks, Darren. Excited to chat with you this morning.

Darrin Peppard (01:02.008)

Yeah, absolutely. So let's do this real quick around the horn. Quick introductions for my listeners and for my viewers on YouTube who maybe don't know Erica and Tiffany. Share a little bit about yourselves and Erica will go to you first.

Erika Bare (01:19.018)

Awesome, thank you. So I've been an educator for...

Well, over 20 years, I started as a special education teacher and had the great joy of working with students at all grade levels from early childhood all the way through transition and then transitioned into administrative work. And I was a high school assistant principal, principal, elementary principal, student services director, assistant superintendent, and now have the most fun job as the South Umpqua School District superintendent and also spend a

lot of time working alongside my very good friend, colleague, and co-author Tiffany Burns.

Tiffany Burns (01:59.668)

Hi everybody. So I also have been in education for well over 20 years. I've taught all the levels, elementary, middle, high. I started as a school principal in 2012 where I worked alongside Erica Bear. We actually met in our administrative licensure program together and I made Erica be my friend. So it held through all the way, which is just lovely. We also had the really great fortune of being hired as first year administrators in the first, in our

in the same district. And so that was pretty fabulous to be able to lean on her all the way through. A couple years ago, Erica and I wrote our first book, Connecting Through Conversation, a playbook for talking with students. And I was an elementary principal at the time, and we were traveling all over the country doing professional development, working with districts and schools. And I thought, you know, I'm going to take just a one year sabbatical and see what it's like to do this traveling. And then I started teaching full time with pre-service teachers at

Southern Oregon University, fell in love with that gig and now I'm doing that full-time traveling around coaching principals, still hanging out with my good friend Erica Bayer.

Erika Bare (03:11.338)

Thank goodness,

Darrin Peppard (03:12.686)

Sounds pretty awesome. So I want to kind of go right back to something that you just said there, Tiffany, that the two of you connected in your licensure program. And I think for many of us, we develop those relationships with people who, you we share those experiences, both that one in my doctorate cohort.

a real, real tight group of people that I had an opportunity to build relationships with that I'm still good friends with to this day. And one of the biggest benefits, and I have a feeling this is true here too, was once you got in the seat, and so folks, now we're leaning into those of you who just got the keys or maybe July 1 you get the keys, when you get to sit in the seat,

It's exciting, it's thrilling, it's yes, I've made it. My good friend Todd Bloomer, now retired high school principal in San Antonio would say, man, you land that job, put your feet up, yourself on the back, and then in about a minute and a half, get your feet off the desk, because it's time to get to work. And I think one of the things that was most beneficial for me, both as a principal and as a superintendent, was being able to lean into those very people.

They say it's lonely at the top. They have no idea how lonely it is at the top. maybe for the two of you, kind of, I don't know, talk back and forth just a little bit on that connection. I could see just by how you guys are responding to what I'm saying that yes, this is very true. You leaned on each other. talk a little bit about that, kind of the importance of having that person to be able to lean into.

Erika Bare (04:59.53)

Well, it's huge. I don't think I could have made it. I we did the math. We've been doing administrative work for 15 years now and that...

first year, you know, it's exactly like you said, we're so excited. And then it takes about five minutes. And for me, it just turned to like, terror, like, what am I going to actually do? Right? Like, how is this going to work? And luckily, Tiffany and I had really connected during that admin program. And it was a phenomenal program. And we are still connected to a lot of people who we were in that program. talked to one of them yesterday. And so building that network of support is so critical. And then

be intentional about it. Like Tiffany and I, we had at least monthly dinners where we would get together. And I mean, it was also just like a support network of like, are you doing okay? I'm doing okay. We're going to make it next thing. But also we would problem solve through the stuff that was really hard. We would kind of try and help each other figure out how to figure out that next challenge, that next conversation, that next hill to climb. And without that support,

without that phone number. don't know how that would have gone. So really encourage people to find their people.

Tiffany Burns (06:14.56)

Absolutely. Well, and I just think so much it's

it's having that confidential person that you can actually talk to about the situation that you know that's going to again hold that in confidence that's going to be supportive but also I really appreciated having a thought partner and someone that would challenge my thinking you know so I'm thinking about in this way I need a different perspective or literally could you please challenge my thinking on this Erica what do you think about this and there were so many times that we would you know change our minds after

meeting together and talking something through, change our own minds, change each other's minds. And then also, you know, those tough conversations are the ones that, I mean, this is why we wrote our most recent book, A School Leaders Playbook for Tough Conversations. Those are what wake us up in the middle of the night, you know, and what you're talking about with these folks that just got the job. I am going to guess that not one of them thought, I can't wait to have those tough conversations when I start that job. Or that's why I want that.

job so I can do that. I don't know anyone that did that and so being able to have someone that I could talk to that I could literally role play or say what sentence stem should I use going into this conversation or if I say it like this how do you think it'll land? It has just been such an incredible gift to my career to be able to have to have an Erika Baer.

Erika Bare (07:42.186)

Yeah, want everyone to find their work bestie because none of us can do this work in isolation and you said it Darren like there's something so lonely about being a school administrator. There's so much that only you can hold you can't talk about it with anyone else in your building. There's no one else who's taking the same kind of

brunt force as everyone else when things don't go quite right or when there's a challenge that walks in the building and it's lonely. And so you have to be intentional about building a network of those folks. Even if you're, you I worked at the high school level for a number of years and so having an administrative team is such a gift. And when you're the principal, it's still not quite the same.

And if you're an elementary principal or you're a sole administrator in a building, you have to find those folks because it's hard, it's challenging, and it isn't work that should be done alone. School leadership is not a solo sport and you can't do it without a team.

Darrin Peppard (08:53.165)

Yeah, absolutely. you guys, just listening to you two talk, I'm going back in my mind. I started my school administrator career in 2006, and my high school principalship, I think it was 2011, was when I took that role. Superintendent, 2017. And when I moved from AP to principal, and I was shocked at this.

Two of the members of my team that I stood shoulder to shoulder with as APs, now I'm their supervisor. And what people don't understand sometimes is that that dynamic changes. The principal that hired me that I followed in that role said it extremely well. He said, you you were one of them, now you're one with them. And...

And that is something that I think a lot of people need to think about because you're right, you have to have your peeps. You have to have somebody you can pick up the phone and call and say everything you guys just said. And sometimes, this was one of my favorite parts of it, everything you guys just said 100%. But my best friend to this day, we met on New Teacher Day in 1995. He's now a retired school superintendent, but through our principal times, we went through

we went through our principal program together like the two of you and even into our superintendent times. It was at least once a week, one of us was calling and saying, okay, you cannot top this one. just the, you just have to share, right? And you can't share with others and not like to make fun of the situation or the people in the situation, but just to, I have to tell someone about this and

Erika Bare (10:27.719)

Yeah.

Darrin Peppard (10:41.299)

it helps you process it just as much. So those things are just so, so super valuable to be able to do that and to just have those conversations around all the stuff. But I want go back to something Tiffany that you said, and you are absolutely correct. Man, I've worked with so many administrators around the country and I have yet to find anyone who said, bring on the hard conversation, bring on the mad parent, you know.

Just like nobody says, hey, bring on the emails. Can't wait for that. Can't wait for the long meetings. Nobody goes in to be an administrator for that reason. But the reality is you are going to have tough conversations. A high school principal here in Nebraska yesterday, somebody I've gotten to know over the last couple of years, sent me a text late in the afternoon yesterday, had to put someone on administrative leave. It's the first time that he's done that.

And he said, that was the hardest thing I've ever done as an administrator. And I had to do it a handful of times. can tell by way you two are shaking your head, you've done it as well. So let's lean into the playbook for school administrators on having tough conversations. And I'm thinking, even from before the conversation even happens, all the way through it. So you two wrote the book. I'll let you guys run with it. Whoever wants to go first, let's.

Let's coach some folks up on how you get prepared for this.

Erika Bare (12:11.018)

I think the first thing is get prepared. We should, as much as we can, we want to walk into these conversations feeling ready because we are going to worry about them. They are going to cause us some anxiety. They may even keep us up at night. And for us, we really focus on the idea that action is the anecdote to anxiety. And so if we can take, just take, take a minute, write out some of the key pieces that we need to pay attention to, go through.

the planning steps and we have on our website as a free download our planning guide that we use to get ready for these tough conversations because being intentional about thinking through some key ideas will make the conversation go so much better and it will also build your

confidence walking into it. Even though it's not going to be easy and we don't have control over the outcome and we can only do so much, if we know we've done everything we can to walk into it ready, prepared with all of the information we need, and in the right mindset, then we know we have a much better chance of success.

Tiffany Burns (13:25.156)

Well, there's so many parts too that we're thinking about. So in that planning guide, Eric and I are talking about thinking about the location, you know, where to have the meeting, the method of communication. as folks that are, and Darren, I know that you fall into this category as well, but as folks that are good communicators, you know, we are sometimes in charge of communication cleanup as well. And the amount of times that I have had to step in and clean up some kind of communication because someone has

sent an email that should have been a phone call or that should have been a sit-down meeting is significant and the thing is it's oftentimes it's because the person doesn't want to have the conversation anyway you know they just think let me just get this out I'm gonna send this email and you can't read nuance you can't read tone

Yeah, and none of those pieces. so we're thinking about there's so much. What's the timing? When do you send the invitation? How do you end the meeting? What specific information do you need to come prepared with so that it'll have the outcome that you know that you want or the outcome that you need? What are you specifically going to say? And how are you going to say that? So it lands because I don't want to spend all this time feeling anxious or having just a lot of nerves around this conversation.

Darrin Peppard (14:16.311)

Right.

Tiffany Burns (14:44.24)

and then have the person leave and the message didn't land or I didn't actually say the thing that I needed to say.

Erika Bare (14:52.048)

And for me, I'm sorry, for me, and like I said, I've been doing this for a minute and I've had lots of really tough conversations. I've had to do what your friend was just going through more than one time for certain. And it's always hard. And when you get in there, it is so tempting to not say the things. And so even after all these years, I still write it down. I'll write down the two or three things that absolutely have to be said.

Darrin Peppard (14:52.407)

Yeah, go ahead.

Erika Bare (15:21.978)

in that meeting and I'll write down exactly how I want to say it because it holds myself accountable for making sure that I do it because there there's always a moment in a meeting where you've got tears you've got big emotions you're start to feel bad you start to question yourself and you have to really go back to when you were clear-headed when you were getting ready for this these were the things that you knew had to be communicated.

And it's on kind for both you and the other person if you are not clear about the purpose of what's going on, right? If we stepped into this meeting because we care about the students, we care about the school, we care about the educator that we're talking with, we care about the caregiver who's working with their child, right? We care about these people. That's why we have to have this conversation.

And even though it's not going to be fun, we better make sure it's at least effective. Like we have to make sure that we've gotten our message across. So we really encourage people to write it down. I still do it. It still helps me. I walk in with my notes and I'm ready to go.

Darrin Peppard (16:29.867)

I think one of the big things that I heard you say, and I'll say this somewhat tongue in cheek, but also very seriously, especially for those of you who are just getting into the role. The biggest thing I heard you say without saying it is don't just go charging into the conversation. I think this is one of the biggest mistakes. I know I made this mistake a few times. Several of the folks that I support have made that mistake.

We have to very much be strategic when it comes to these conversations. And I like, Erica, how you talked about writing down the things you know have to be said. Sometimes, as administrators, there's an administrator that I'm coaching right now who just had to go through the process of letting someone know they were not gonna renew their contract.

One of the things that he was struggling with was he might see something good and then he would start waffling. And this is someone who, I mean, has such a huge heart and just cares so much. And I think those are the folks who struggle the most with these conversations because you do, you see the tears or you can find yourself backpedaling a little.

So again, I love that you're like, these things must be said. But where I'm kind of going with this is maybe let's talk about what we shouldn't say or when we're having those really tough conversations, maybe it is a non-renewal or it's, hey, we're, you you interviewed a couple people for your leadership team that are internal candidates and you're telling the internal candidate that they didn't get the position, those kinds of things.

I mean, right. That's a tough one. Yeah, absolutely. So, yeah. So folks, for, you know, for transparency sake, we're recording this in late April, when most of you are probably right now sitting in an interview table interviewing people for for your position. So let's let's talk a little bit about that. The when when maybe you could go too far with what you're saying and in the tough conversation.

Erika Bare (18:27.402)

hiring season. Yep. Yep.

Tiffany Burns (18:51.684)

So I think it's really important that we're using very clear factual language. So we wanna avoid words like always and never. It is unlikely that someone is always late or never does this thing, but they can be consistently late or consistently doing this thing. So we wanna think about just say, four out of the last six days you were late to work. That is different than always, right? So we're just wanting to be very, very clear.

and factual what we're talking about. We're wanting to steer clear of adjectives. We're wanting to describe behavior, you know, what was observed or what we saw or this was the impact that behavior had on others. Instead of using more subjective language that could be argued with, that could be questioned, we just want to make sure that we're very clear in that. And again, we write that down very specifically. And I like to sit next to someone or

at like a kitty corner, kind of a 90 degree angle, so we're not right across from each other when we're delivering this message. So it's not this me versus you or us versus them. It's rather confrontational to be face to face in that way. But that also means that the person is sitting right next to me so they can see my notes. So I write my notes in a very, very light pencil. So I am the only one that can see the words that I've written down that I'm sharing.

Erika Bare (20:16.65)

I'm lucky because my handwriting is super poor. No one can read it except for me and an office manager I had like 10 years ago. So it works out, it's all fine. But I think the other piece beyond being very careful about not overgeneralizing or making statements that can be argued with, right? We want it to be just straight data as much as possible.

I think a trap that we can get into, especially if we've gone into the conversation too soon, is we can start attacking the person instead of the problem. So we wanna make sure that we put the problem out on the table, that we're really clear about the problem. We haven't soft-pedaled around it or avoided saying what we're actually there to talk about, right? Here's the problem and we're gonna attack the problem. We're not gonna say,

you're irresponsible, you're late all the time, we're gonna say you were late four out of five times and this is causing this kind of impact, right? So we're attacking the problem, not the person. The caution that I like to give people around being in the right mindset for these conversations, because I mean, we all, we're all human people, we have big emotions, right? And we take our work personally, we just, do, because it is personal. We're supporting kids, we're supporting educators.

And so when something happens and we're really frustrated or really angry or really upset, if that's why we're stepping into the conversation, like I'm in charge and I'm gonna tell you, then you've got a problem, right? That's not the right time to step into the conversation. If you're stepping into win, if you're stepping into punish, if you're stepping into kind of...

Darrin Peppard (21:46.444)

Yeah.

Erika Bare (21:57.01)

show the world that you're the one who's gonna tackle this situation, then you've got an issue. And what we really ask folks to do is pause, like that's your pause. The first thing on our planning guide is purpose, like why are you having this conversation? And that has to circle somewhere around care.

because if we go in too angry or too hot, we're not gonna communicate clearly and it's gonna become about how we acted in that meeting instead of the issue. So take a walk, take a pause, it's probably not an emergency, like you probably have 24 hours before you need to actually respond to this. And I've even said I had a really, really difficult situation. A teacher did something that I...

was pretty upset about, pretty angry about, and she came in to talk to me about it. She kind of came and found me. It was after an observation she knew I was gonna be upset. And I just said, you know what, like this conversation's really important. I definitely wanna talk to you about this. Right now I'm feeling a little too emotional about it to have a productive conversation. So I'm gonna pause and I'm gonna ask for us to come back to this tomorrow because I think...

it's okay to let folks know something's really impacted you. It's not okay to step into a conversation before you're emotionally regulated to have one that's going to be productive.

Darrin Peppard (23:19.564)

Yeah, for sure. I think understanding that in your role, you can very quickly, I like how you said that, Erica, you can very quickly switch this from the reason you're having the meeting to something you have now done that completely shifts the outcome, the relationship you have with that individual and so forth. So some really, really good stuff there. I want to stay with the tough conversations, but maybe transition it in a little bit different direction.

We're kind of focused primarily on the conversations with the adults in our building, which realistically, that's where a lot of those tough conversations are going to go. But I framed this conversation with thinking about those who are just getting the keys and just stepping in. And more than likely, the first tough conversation that may come their way is the angry parent.

Or the parent who's not happy with how something happened or the parent who heard from their child what happened, but maybe didn't hear from the teacher first or the assistant principal first or how it should have actually played out. So let's maybe now reframe the tough conversation and certainly everything still applies, but let's lean into those early career leaders and

help get them prepared for when the hot parent comes rolling through the door.

Tiffany Burns (24:52.548)

Well, and there will be no shortage of those. That just happens. that, you know, they bring that to us and we can expect that. so think just a huge part of that is really making sure you're listening when they're communicating and being able to say things like, I hear you. I've made a note of that. Let me make sure I got that right. And saying it back to them. Then also acknowledging the impact that whatever happened had on them or had on their child. Right. So saying,

to them like, know what, this is really important. I'm so glad you brought this concern to me. And you really have to mean that, right? Like, I'm glad that you brought this to me because I can address it now. I'm glad that you brought this to me and didn't just splash it all over social media. And maybe they did both, but at least they're bringing it to you and sharing it with you. And then what you want to say is, you know, I'm really sorry this happened. That doesn't mean that I'm necessarily taking responsibility for something that did happen, but I can't say I'm really sorry this happened. I'm so sorry that this happened to you.

child that must be so upsetting and I would be really upset as well if that happened to my kid so I get it let's talk about that. If it is something that we did wrong it is very very it is necessary that we that we say absolutely thank you for bringing this to me I'm sorry this happened we are working to ensure nothing like this happens again because what I want to do is help move them forward I cannot go back in time I cannot fix what happened I can't change what we did or didn't do correctly or incorrectly

But I can move things forward and I can change things moving forward.

and letting somebody know that I'm taking it seriously and I'm going to make sure that that doesn't happen again, that really helps them see, okay, this is really upsetting and I hear that you really are trying to make it different. The other piece that you mentioned, Darren, is maybe their child has told them something that is completely inaccurate or maybe they've heard something from someone else that isn't true or they read something online and it could not be further from the truth. We don't want to say, well, your kid's

Tiffany Burns (26:58.726)

or that's a complete inaccuracy. We don't want to say that, right? And also they're very escalated. And so if we tell them that what they're really upset about is not at all what happened, that is also going to be upsetting to them because then there's some embarrassment. So we recommend tucking this into your back pocket and saying, you know what? I would be so upset too if that's what I was told.

If that's what I thought happened, I would be really upset. Give that a beat and then, you know, I'd like to share with you a little bit more context. Let me talk to you about what happened here and can I share with you what the adults had said? And what you're doing is really acknowledging and validating that yes, you heard this thing and you are upset about it. Also, that's not exactly accurate and I'm gonna help shed a little bit more light on it.

Erika Bare (27:46.26)

think the other thing that can be super helpful with working with caregivers, everything that Tiffany just said, first we have to listen, we have to acknowledge. That's 90 % of deescalating. Someone who's upset or frustrated is for them to just know that they've been heard and that you are listening to what they have to say. And then we wanna really focus on the idea of partnership. We're gonna use words like we and together.

and we're on the same team. We both want the same things. We both want to make sure Johnny feels safe at school. We both want to make sure that Johnny is successful in making friends. We both want to make sure that Johnny enjoys going to his math class every day. We both want these things, right? We are always on the same team. We always want what's best for the student. And the disagreement is almost always in how we get there, right? How are we going to

get to whatever that goal is. And so if we can point out that common interest, if we can really hang out in this idea that we care about your kids so much, like we care about your kid, we like your kid a whole lot, and we are on the same team. We're gonna figure this out together.

Darrin Peppard (28:59.593)

I think that's such an important perspective and early on in my leadership career, I don't know that I necessarily always took that perspective. sometimes it takes a little bit of learning. Sometimes it takes you tripping and falling in order to maybe get yourself reframed back into that right mindset of, hey, we really are all in this together. We are, you know, trying to, you know, do what's best for your child collectively.

That's a really important point. I'm really glad that you brought that up. Let's maybe pivot in a little bit different direction here, because I've got you guys, I got to ask. There's going to be, for every new leader, there are going to be those things, I call them the time bandits, the things that just steal your time. Just pull you away from what you want to do. When you sat in the interview chair, new administrators, I'm talking to you right now, when you sat in the interview chair,

You said things like, I don't want to forget what it's like to be a teacher. I want to be a servant leader. I want to be in classrooms helping my teachers. And then the school year starts. And the next thing you know, you haven't been out of the office in four days. You know, you're constantly, you know, chasing around trying to do things. Number one, give yourself a little bit of a break if that's what happens, because it's normal. But there are ways, there are techniques you can use.

to get back your time. And the number one stealer of time is the, hey Tiffany, have you got a minute? You're gonna hear that. Hey Erica, I just need to touch base with you really quick. Man folks, I used to get trapped by this constantly. I've got some systems for it, but I know you guys have some systems, so I wanna listen to what you guys have shared or what you guys have to help these new administrators not.

get pulled into the quicksand.

Tiffany Burns (30:58.114)

Well, the truth is when they ask, and they always ask, do you have a minute, they never mean that. No one ever means a minute. They don't. Nobody really means that. If they just meant a minute, they'd ask you the quick question. that's a little, should be little flag for us. But what...

Darrin Peppard (31:08.233)

Right.

Darrin Peppard (31:15.1)

Yeah.

Tiffany Burns (31:18.456)

really like to say, especially if you don't have a minute, right? You do not have a minute and you don't have the minutes that they're actually thinking about. And in your head, you're like, no, I have zero minutes. I have negative minutes. I'm already late to this other thing that I'm supposed to be doing. What you do not want to say to them is, no, I don't right now. So sorry, I don't have time. Because what they're hearing is, you're too busy for me or I'm not a priority to you. And that's not what you mean at all.

Darrin Peppard (31:29.835)

Right.

Tiffany Burns (31:48.372)

You want to make sure that you're not getting derailed with, yeah, the things that you really are prioritizing. we suggest, again, some real sentence stems that you can just, again, tuck those into your back pocket of just, you know what, and Erica says this, I love it, Erica says, you are worth so much more than a minute. Let's schedule a time that we can sit down together and really talk about this. Or, you know, this conversation, I can tell this is really important. I want to make sure that I give it the time it deserves. Let's schedule some time, you now.

that we can actually sit down and have that or this is just too critical to be rushed and I want to schedule time when we can problem-solve together. The trick with that is that you cannot just put them off and not have the time, right? Like you you can't say let's talk about it later and then not circle back. If you do that you have completely eroded trust. People are not going to trust you. So you have to actually circle around to it but that lets them know I'm taking you seriously. This is a priority for me. Let's do this at a time when I can give it my full attention.

Erika Bare (32:47.622)

It also, if the conversation is gonna be fraught, if it actually is kind of a big deal, it also buys you some time to prepare. But to Tiffany's point, you do have to actually schedule it. So depending on your system, and I know for early administrators, they're gonna be figuring this out. My hope and dream for you is that you have that amazing office manager that I was always so lucky to have that really helped keep my calendar.

balanced in a way that made sense. And so I would right away say, my gosh, I definitely want to make sure that we have time for this conversation. Super important. Just real quick, go check in with Jen and she will get you on the calendar and wow, can't wait to connect then. Because then they see that you're actually following through. If you're not that lucky, then pull out your phone and say, okay, let's find a time really quick so that we make sure this doesn't get lost. Cause then they don't feel pushed off or

know, post-boned without a real concrete next step.

people just knowing that like the appointments there, they're gonna have an opportunity again, it just helps deescalate because the truth is as a new administrator, as a seasoned administrator, as an educator of any type, we never have a minute. I've never had like, my gosh, what shall I do now? Like that is just not the world we live in, right? So we have to be really intentional. We don't want folks and they're not doing it on purpose. It is a really important thing. It does need to be handled, but

you know, I kind of live and die by my calendar. And so if something throws that off track, then the priorities that I was really intentional about setting, right, the goals that I was really intentional about making are going to get pushed off by the urgent and I'm not going to make the kind of progress that I want.

Darrin Peppard (34:39.269)

Absolutely. Never sacrifice the important at the altar of the urgent. That is something that typically early career leaders do. I know I was guilty of it for at least two years. And I love that piece there too with lean into your office manager, your secretary, your admin assistant, your director of first impressions, whatever title you may have for that person. I did that exact same thing except we had actually taken it to the next level of

Erika Bare (34:50.031)

yeah.

Darrin Peppard (35:06.687)

just email Marilyn and she'll put you on the calendar. And one thing I would add to it too, that you guys probably did, just maybe just didn't mention here, whenever possible have that meeting on their turf, not on yours, because it has this underlying message of, hey, your time is more important than mine, I'm coming to you. And then you also increase your visibility. Like you still have to walk back to the office so you can pop into a classroom or two. There's some really, really easy ways you can do that first year administrators trust us on this one. So.

Man, some super, super good stuff there and our time is absolutely flying by. So I want to jump to the last formal question that I have here on the show, the one I ask everybody who comes on here as a guest. So Erica and Tiffany, this is the Leaning Into Leadership podcast. So how are you leaning into leadership right now?

Erika Bare (35:55.658)

Well, for me right now, I'm really focusing on focus, if that makes sense. So we've got some really important concrete goals in the district that I'm at and I have been.

working very hard on saying no to everything that isn't in direct alignment with what we're trying to accomplish. And so there are so many pretty things that come across in education. There's so many awesome things that we could be doing and we've made a very intentional, we spent a lot of time.

a list of priorities and there's like three things and that's it. And so everything has to be in alignment with that. And I love saying yes, especially to cool things. And so that is taking an exercise in restraint for me, but that has been my most recent leaning into leadership moment.

Tiffany Burns (36:51.592)

piggyback off of your exercise and restraint Erica because I think with education I don't know it doesn't matter what your job is in education it is a big job and it is a job that you could do 24 hours a day seven days a week and still have more job and so for me mine with this whole idea about time mine is really making sure that I love the quote be where your feet are and really being present in that moment

and thinking about, I am not at work right now, I am here with my family, I'm going to presently be here with my family. I'm gonna schedule time for that. I'm gonna schedule time to go take that walk or do what I need to for myself. is always my goal is make sure that I'm enough time, prioritizing enough time for the things that really light me up and that help me be more effective at work and help me be more effective as a mom when I'm being a mom, as a wife when I'm a wife, as a princess

when I'm being a principal, an instructor when I'm with my students. You know, really being intentional about the way in which I spend my time and calendaring it. Just like Erica, if it's not on my calendar, I'm not doing it. So I'm gonna calendar that time for me as well.

Darrin Peppard (38:07.05)

And I love both of those answers so very much. This has just been absolutely wonderful. People are gonna wanna get in touch with you guys. We're gonna put links in the show notes for your website and for your books and certainly for the free download that you mentioned earlier, Erica. But if people wanna get in touch with you, they wanna connect with you guys, whether it's website or social media, what's the best way for them to do that?

Erika Bare (38:32.08)

You can find everything on our website, so that's probably easiest. It's connecting through conversation.com. And you can find all our socials on there. We're sharing out free content all the time. We have a blog on there and all kinds of free downloads like the one that I mentioned earlier. And you can for sure email us, schedule a time to chat with us. We would love to connect with you all.

Darrin Peppard (38:56.938)

Well, we'll again again, we'll make sure all that stuff is down in their show notes for you guys Hey, thank you both so much for joining me here. This has been an absolute blast

Erika Bare (39:06.484)

Thanks Darren, it was super fun.

Tiffany Burns (39:08.408)

Thanks, Darren. Had a great time chatting with you.

All right, folks. Awesome conversation with Erica and Tiffany. Make sure you get down there in the show notes and check out all the things that they are doing, including their new book. Just amazing, amazing stuff. I'm super glad that they joined me here on the show. And now it's time for a pep talk. So, folks, this entire week I was on the road. We're talking coast to coast.

We're talking all four time zones in a period of five days. I began my week at a corporate leadership retreat in Los Angeles. On Tuesday, I keynoted the Missouri Leadership Academy Conference in Columbia, Missouri. And then Wednesday and Thursday spent my day working with leaders in Orange County Schools in Orange, Virginia. Just continuing to work hard on developing.

The systems, the procedures, the processes that are going to continue to set them up for further success in the future. And I had so many takeaways from this week, but the one that I want to dive into here in the pep talk came from a conversation after my keynote Tuesday in Colombia. Now, one of the things that I talk about in my keynote, where I'm really focusing on helping leaders get out of the cycle of chaos and really be much more clear and much more intentional, is the idea.

Of servant leadership, and more importantly, how servant leadership has kind of morphed into something that it really is never intended to be. I talk in the keynote about how servant leadership is not about doing for everyone else. Because honestly, that's one of the number one traps that pulls us into the cycle of chaos. This belief that we have to do for everyone and that we have to take everything off their plate and do for them as much as we humanly can. You see, that's not.

what true servant leadership is. True servant leadership honestly is empowering others to do for themselves. So they no longer need you to do things for them. After the keynote, one of the individuals who was in the room stopped me and talked with me about how powerful that piece was and about how their views align very much with mine on servant leadership.

We're in a time of year right now for most of you, especially those those of you who are school leaders, where you're planning and preparing and thinking about the year to come. One of the things I want to challenge you to think about, and that's really the purpose of today's pep talk, is to think about how you can lean in to others not to do things for them, but to empower them to do for themselves. That's the challenge for you this week, folks.

Thank you so much for joining me here on the Leaning Into Leadership Podcast. As always, rate, review, and subscribe. That's what drives the algorithm. That's what gets leaning into leadership in more people's ears and on their YouTube screens. So get out there, have a rote awesome week.