Episode 279: Burn the Script with Jo Lein

Darrin Peppard (00:00.64)

All right, everybody, welcome into episode 279 of the Leaning Into Leadership podcast. If you've ever worked with someone who wants to improve, but just can't seem to break through, or maybe you've worked with someone who resists feedback altogether, if so, you know the frustration that comes with trying to move people forward when there's something deeper that is holding them back. The truth is, most of the time, it's not a skill issue.

It's usually a belief issue. And when belief is the barrier, no amount of strategy, system, or checklists is going to fix it. That's why I'm super excited about today's conversation. Now, before we jump in, I want to connect this idea to something that I see in schools all the time. When students struggle academically, we often assume that they just need more instruction, more time, or more intervention.

But just like with adults, there are often deeper barriers at play and schools don't always have the capacity to meet those needs effectively. That's where partners like HeyTutor, today's episode sponsor, come in. HeyTutor partners with schools to provide high dosage tutoring in math and English language arts. And they do it both in person and online with trained tutors who integrate directly into your system. Now their approach is built around what actually

works, targeted consistent support, real-time progress monitoring, and alignment with your instructional goals. So instead of adding more to your team's plate, you're building a system that supports both your students and your teachers. If you're looking to create real academic impact without overwhelming your staff, HeyTutor is a partner worth exploring. Check them out at heytutor.com or go down into the show notes and hit the link.

That'll let him know you heard about him here on the Leaning Into Leadership podcast.

Darrin Peppard (02:12.982)

All right, let's get into this conversation. Today I am joined by Joe Lane, leadership coach, educator, and author of the brand new book, Burn the Script, How Great Coaches Disrupt Mindsets and Transform Practice. This conversation, this is one of those episodes that challenges the way you think, because Joe pushes beyond strategies and into something much deeper, the beliefs that drive our behavior.

the patterns that keep people stuck, and the role we play as leaders in helping others and ourselves break through. In this conversation, we're going to talk about why people are not uncoachable. They're often just stuck in protective patterns. We'll talk about how mindset, not skill, is often the real barrier to growth, what it actually takes to disrupt thinking and create meaningful change, and how leaders can build environments where people feel safe enough to burn the script.

If you've ever found yourself frustrated with someone who just isn't growing or wondering how to move your team from compliance to real ownership, this episode's going to give you a whole lot to think about it. Let's get to it with Joe Lane. I'll see you on the other side.

Darrin Peppard (00:00.334)

Alright folks, welcome back into the show. Joe Lane is my guest on the show today. Joe, welcome into Leaning into Leadership.

Jo Lein (00:10.601)

Thank you for having me.

Darrin Peppard (00:12.57)

Absolutely. I've been looking forward to this conversation for a while. We'll get to burning the script or burn the script here in just a little bit. The new book that you have coming out. But what I'm really excited about with this conversation is just coach to coach having conversation about helping individuals grow and sometimes even helping those individuals who don't necessarily think they can or want to grow.

So I think that'll be a lot of fun for us to get into today in this conversation. Before we do though, Joe, tell my listeners, my viewers on YouTube, just a little bit about you so they kind of have an idea of where you're coming

Jo Lein (00:57.279)

Sure, yeah. This part actually makes me squirm a little and it's something I've been really, really practicing myself as a person who believes very much in the art of practice. I am choosing to release myself of certain labels. As I wrote Burn the Script, one of the big things that I concluded was that a lot of folks, especially those in power, especially those with doctorates, especially those have built their

their reputation and credibility have a really hard time unlearning. And so I had to kind of strip down to like, okay, what do I actually do? And so the work that I do, I've helped hundreds of educators and systems leaders do a lot of things, build new skills, think more clearly. And if I'm really lucky, confront beliefs that shape their decisions. And that's what I wrote about in the book.

So a title really doesn't capture a lot of that except for the title of coach. And that is a label that I will never strip because that is a posture that I just work through life with and I practice it every day.

Darrin Peppard (02:10.19)

I that's a great way to introduce yourself. And it's also a great mindset just to have about who you are in terms of that work persona, the one that is pouring into people on a regular basis. Something that I would like to maybe jump into, and you referenced this just a touch, but I'd love to maybe have you go a little bit deeper. We're gonna talk about the book at a point in time, but.

in the book, you open with a story in the introduction that was kind of that almost like glass shattering moment or that moment where you started to think differently about coaching. And I think so many of our listeners, our viewers on YouTube are in either formally or informally a role where they are coaching the people that they work with, whether that's their direct reports or people that

they supervise in a school or something like that. So let's begin there with that moment for you when you started to think a little bit differently about coaching.

Jo Lein (03:21.895)

Yeah, coaching has been a real big evolution for me. You know, I think it's pretty clear what it looks like to build technical skills with people. You know, we know that pretty clearly that you name a skill and you practice the skill. It's just like a classroom based teaching. But what stood out to me is in my journey of now coaching educators for over 15 years was a situation many, many years ago now.

where I was working with a first year teacher in an urban high school. And the teacher deeply, deeply loved her children, like deeply loved her children. And that love that she had for her children showed up in a lot of lax approach towards classroom management. She wanted to be their emotional support, their person that

they could go to. But the classroom really lacked structure. And as a result, kids really didn't learn as much as they really needed to in her classroom. And so I knew it was a mindset. I knew it was. Because it was obvious in the ways that she responded to feedback. She just sloughed off my feedback around the transitions or her voice or the directions or her reinforcement.

She'd just slough it off every time. And she'd take other types of feedback, but not that. And so I took a risk and I decided to challenge her thinking directly. And I did it in a way that was probably not the most tactful. was not, in retrospect, it actually was really not the right approach. But I talked to her about how our kids are in life or death situations.

And let's just imagine a life or death situation. We're taking our kids on a field trip. They get to a curb. We're not going to half ass our instructions to tell them to stop and look both ways. Right. And right now, our kids are in life or death situations in their schools. If they get an education, they get a life. And if they don't, we know what the alternative looks like. And she was really frustrated with me because I basically implied that she was killing her children. She didn't talk to me for a couple of days.

Jo Lein (05:43.711)

And she came back with a new type of energy when I came back to her classroom. I mean, it was not perfect, but it was a different place. And it was because I was able to challenge directly some of the ways in which she was thinking about her role and the type of work that she needed to do in this context with these children.

And I've drawn the conclusion over the years that my job as a coach is not to make you be a certain person. My job is to help you be the best version of you that your context requires. And sometimes your context doesn't match who you are. And we all know that, those experiences. But I think that was the moment for me.

Darrin Peppard (06:29.166)

I think it's a super powerful story and sure you can look at it in retrospect and say maybe that wasn't the right way to approach it but it certainly seemed to have had the effect you were looking for so maybe it was the right approach.

Jo Lein (06:46.601)

she could've talked to me for three days, like that, that, that was a problem.

Darrin Peppard (06:48.96)

Well, there's that, yeah. There's that, but that's okay. Maybe she was just really deeply reflecting on what you had to say and didn't have any cognitive space to formulate a conversation with you, I don't know. Here's what I was thinking about as I'm listening to you share that story. I'm thinking about individuals that over the course of my career both

you know, as a, you know, in a formal education setting, but then also in this work I've been doing for the last five years, coaching leaders in a lot of different walks of life. I think there's a handful of different mindsets or maybe challenges, if you will, that we can come across as coaches, both with, with individuals that we're coaching. And then also situations where maybe somebody who we're working with that really is coachable really wants to grow, but they ask us,

a fairly tough question and they're like, you know, how do I help with this situation? So coach to coach, here's what I'm thinking. I just wanna throw a few of these things back and forth and let's just kick through them just a little bit, right? So you just kind of address the person who maybe needs to break through, you know, to change their mindset a little bit. One that I'm thinking about right now,

Jo Lein (08:03.124)

do it.

Darrin Peppard (08:17.342)

is just the absolute, like, they're just not coachable. They don't want to improve. In her case, she just needed a glass shattering moment to kind of think that through. I know how I approach the not necessarily coachable, but I'd like to have you go there because I guarantee our listeners, our viewers on YouTube have those people that they are trying to coach that, man, they're just not having it.

Jo Lein (08:46.931)

So I really I love situational leadership. You know the framework where we analyze skill and will and I use that like pretty frequently in my in my coaching work to determine you know, what approach do I take? Do I take a directive approach facilitated approach? The problem with the skill and will kind of thinking is that it it limits our ability to understand context and belief, right? So will as though it's like a static thing or like a thing that doesn't.

knowledge, but will and skill depend dramatically on context, right? Do they feel, do they have, you know, historical context that's influencing their thinking? Do they look at leaders around them and look and see what they are doing? Do they have a sort of a fear of

power dynamics or authority. Is there something in their history that makes it difficult for them to hold people accountable? Right? A lot of the behaviors that we see from folks are a manifestation of our previous experiences that influence how we show up in a space. I don't believe that anyone is truly not coachable. I believe that people become disempowered.

by their own thinking. And if we can break through that thinking, and that's the tricky part, right, is finding what the source of that behavior is. And that's why looking and spotting patterns becomes a really important part of the work that a coach does. Because, you know, I might be like an absolute joy and contribute and challenge in my own small team.

But then when I get into group spaces, I'm silent. Why? My behavior changes depending on the context that I'm in. It's not that I am not coachable or not effective in those group spaces. I just have something going on in my brain that makes it difficult for me to engage there. And most of time it's related to how I feel about power. But I guess I've thought about that a lot.

Darrin Peppard (10:59.862)

No, that's really, really good. And I think that's a very realistic and really a direct answer. I love that very, very well because there really are those things where you will notice behaviors that will change situationally. People who will, and I hear this one sometimes and so I really like that answer a lot. I'm like processing it as I'm talking.

Several times I have heard the, know, boy, when I have a one-on-one conversation with this person, everything is just great. And then we get into, you know, a PLC meeting or we get into a large group meeting and they are a completely different person. you know, you know, and, and, sometimes leaders take that personally, but what you're saying is it's not necessarily on them. That's much more that individual's response either to group dynamics or to power or anything like that. So maybe go just a little bit further and then we'll talk about another scenario.

Jo Lein (11:38.494)

Good.

Jo Lein (11:56.357)

So here's the three protective patterns that I talk about in the book that you look for when you're a coach and you're identifying, hmm, do I need to go direct skill here or do I talk about mindsets? Because it's a risk to talk about mindsets. So you have to make sure you're on the right track. So you look for detaching, surrendering, or overcompensating. Those are the big things you're spotting for. And once you've identified that there's some sort of mindset,

You filter it through a couple of lenses, which I talk about it in the book. But one of the things that's most important is to get to kind of root cause analysis. And I divide it into three different categories. People, people's distorted thinking, distorted thinking about connection. Power, so distorted thinking about hierarchy or power dynamics. Or circumstance, which is distorted thinking about change. And those lenses,

influence how people show up. So if I show up into that PLC meeting and I absolutely disengage, it might be because I don't believe this will go anywhere and it will not impact students. And so therefore I'm going to sit and do absolutely nothing because I don't believe in the change that will come from here. Or there's someone in this room that I really dislike and so I'm going to be quiet over here. So I have a distorted view about connection, right? So if you disconnect,

which is that detachment behavior, there's one of those three things that is probably at play. And doing the analysis with the person you're coaching is part of unlearning, part of being able to say, I actually can believe in this PLC, or I actually can get along with that person over here. And we've got to be able to diagnose the right problem there.

Darrin Peppard (13:56.014)

I like that. Sorry, I'll edit this part out. I have two dogs next door and they absolutely will not shut up. And I don't know if you can hear Frank barking, but my god, he's a German Shepherd. Yeah, it's a good dog, but my god, Frank just will not shut up. So that's why I keep going on mute. Not because I'm not trying to engage in the conversation. yeah, yeah.

Jo Lein (14:09.819)

I can hear Frank, yeah. I can hear Frank. We love you, Frank.

Jo Lein (14:21.311)

Yeah, no, I know. I get it. We love you, Frank.

Darrin Peppard (14:23.936)

Yeah, exactly. So what you said there makes me think a little bit about one of the leaders that I work with. And in this individual's case, a little bit of a change in terms of the role they're in now compared to a role they used to be in. And this person is very much a doer.

This is the person who's just gonna show up and go, go, go, go, go. I've told this individual that sometimes that feels really, really good. We feel like we're checking off all these boxes and that means we're being effective because we're doing so much. But in many, many ways, that individual is not leading. And we've talked quite often about slowing down, about getting up on the balcony a little bit and remembering that his role is much more to lead than it is to just jump in.

firefight. But hearing you talk about that does make me kind of think a little bit about where his mindset is in terms of maybe being resistant to change. I think he knows he needs to change. He knows to be effective in that role that changing will really ultimately allow him and his school to be more more successful. But he can't seem to find a way

overcome that. So workshop me a little bit here in a situation there. Like, I mean, I've we've talked about a whole lot of different situations. I haven't yet gone to the life or death. Maybe that's where I need to go next. But, but let's, you know, talk that through with me a little bit how when he knows he needs to change and yet he's not I'm sure you you come across that I've come across it. I have some approaches, but I'd love to hear

Jo Lein (15:43.711)

Ready?

Jo Lein (15:52.383)

laughter

Jo Lein (15:58.921)

Sure, yeah.

Jo Lein (16:08.671)

I've got two people right now who are doing the same thing. Yeah, so obviously you've identified overcompensation behavior. So the first question we always ask is like, what is that behavior protecting? And for that person, we kind of trace it back to skill, identity, or values. for that person, they might

Darrin Peppard (16:11.316)

Yeah, well, let's talk it through.

Jo Lein (16:37.457)

not yet have the skill to figure out how to prioritize their actions, how to manage all of the tasks, how to do it, right? He might not have the skill, in which case that's a pretty obvious fix, right? And then you've got identity where he might see himself as the person who, la la la, right? The person who is always there for their teachers. The person who is like,

the reliable one, the person who's responsive. And that identity is the thing that might be anchoring him down. And then you got the value piece, which that's like, here are things that I care most about. And actually, I don't care about this type of work that you're suggesting. I care about these types of works, which is, of course, rooted in core values that we all know and love and explore.

But that could also be the thing that is anchoring that behavior. Does that resonate?

Darrin Peppard (17:41.824)

I think that's really, really good. Yeah, no, that resonates big time because I think I think there definitely is an identity piece there. But I also think that, you know, yeah, you've definitely hit some pieces there for me to to really think about it. And honestly, just some some ways that I can approach and ask some really good questions of him next time he and I are together, which which will be here here fairly will be here very fairly soon. So, yeah, we could just we could just keep

picking apart leadership situations here. where I'd like to go now maybe is, and you've hit on it a few times here, but let's talk a little bit more about kind of the genesis of the book. We'll get a little bit more into really what the content and the goal is of the book. But I'm always curious when I get the opportunity to sit and talk with an author, as an author myself, as a publisher myself.

I'm just always curious, like, what was it that made you say, I want to write this book?

Jo Lein (18:47.895)

okay. So there's a couple of things. One is I have, I have coached like almost 300 educators in my time as a coach and not a lot of them are around anymore. And I, when I trace back, like all of those people that cared deeply about the mission, cared deeply about kids, cared deeply about systems, they walked away because of things that were blocking them that, that

we could not figure out how to deal with, right? And that, and we have, we have systems issues all day. And I will say very, I don't know if I'm allowed to swear on this, but I'm gonna say, we built our systems, we built our entire system on shitty beliefs. And we, and we still do. Like, let's say we have the belief that like, our students are empty vessels and we are here to fill them.

Well, then of course, then we design our entire system around that belief. That means that people are lecturing at children all the time. That means that the goal becomes completion and not mastery. And now we're reinforcing the no critical thinking because of a core belief around what our kids come in with. If we come in with this new belief that our kids are competent sense makers, if we just believe that, if we just

Believe that. Can you imagine what our system would do? Can you imagine what it would look like if we just like snapped our finger and we just believed in everyone? Like what would that do to people? That'd be amazing.

Darrin Peppard (20:28.428)

Yeah.

Jo Lein (20:29.917)

And so I believe that this work is the work of effective education, period, any type of learning.

Darrin Peppard (20:40.824)

Yeah, I think that's, man, that just goes like right at my heart. I think, man, you're absolutely spot on right there. The system itself, for years, I was a public educator for 26 years. I've been around public education for 30, 31 years now. It's pretty easy to identify.

not cracks, not fissures, massive chasms in the foundation of our system. And you hit on a couple right there that I think are really, really important, that we tend to, and whether this is because of the adults in the system, because of the legislation that has driven so many, I mean, we go back to No Child Left Behind, all of this kind of stuff, right? But.

Jo Lein (21:36.063)

Yeah, Lots of influences.

Darrin Peppard (21:39.466)

yeah, absolutely, and it's things that have pushed for completion and not mastery, things that have forced us to think first and foremost about the outcome of an exam and not back to your life and death story about improving the quality of life of the human beings that are in our classrooms each and every day.

And for me as an educator, that to me is what it's really all about, is ultimately how do we help an individual who maybe this is where without our support, they could be in life and with our support, hey, they could be here a little bit higher, or they have an opportunity to earn a better living or, you know.

break the cycle of poverty, whatever it might be.

How do we then lean into, as you said it, this is the work, coaching and pushing those educators through a system that has these faults?

Jo Lein (22:59.135)

They're lies. They're straight out lies. Our systems are downstream of belief. And whether we like it or not, when we interact with a person, any person, we already have beliefs about that person and what the outcome might be. Like even this morning, I was interacting with, I hate approaching a group of middle school boys that I don't know. I hate it.

Because, you know, if I have relationships with kids, like, I can run in there and be like, you know, like a buzzard, like, spread children, you know, but when I don't have relationships with children, my belief about what they might do is influencing my choice, right? So if I think that they're just going to cuss me out, I might have a different tone or a different approach than if I think that they'll just spread like buzzards, you know? And, and

And whether I like it or not, is unconscious to me unless I slow my thinking down about what I want to believe about these students. You can choose belief. You can choose that. And if I want to believe that these students will respond effectively to me, then I will approach that differently. And that's hard when there's so much at stake. There's so much risk.

And we get scared and paralyzed. So we just follow the script that someone else told us. We just follow that script. Because if we just keep on that, then somehow I'll be safe from risk or harm or rocking the boat or making someone upset, right? Just follow whatever the script is. And then we end up having a group of educators who behave in the same way that our kids do, which is just comply.

We will never improve our systems, ever, if we just comply.

Darrin Peppard (25:00.854)

Hence the title of the book, Burn the Script. Burn the Script, which I think is, and folks, just for some full disclosure, I've had the opportunity to pre-read the book. It is fantastic, it really truly is, and it challenges so many of our traditionally held beliefs. It just pushes us to think a little bit differently. Not just,

Jo Lein (25:02.909)

Yeah, hence the title.

Darrin Peppard (25:29.014)

with the people that we're charged with supporting or coaching or growing, but most importantly, rethinking and challenging our own beliefs, being willing to take a step back. You just shared that example with a group of middle school boys that, know, man, how will this, if I just follow the script, I can stay safe. I've got one more question before I get to our final question here, and I want to push into what you just said there.

For leaders, no, let me take a step back, for anyone working in a school to be able to, to be comfortable with, to be confident, to know that there's no reprisal for burning the script, leaders have to create that environment. So, I mean, obviously, you've been in several leadership roles, you work with leaders all the time. Let's push into that.

What are some things leaders can do to create that environment, that culture, that atmosphere where the adults in their building, the setters of the culture, have the confidence they need to actually burn the script?

Jo Lein (26:49.437)

That's a really good question. I think the first thing that comes to my mind is be willing to praise different things. So we can praise behavior that we want to see, but we also want to praise good judgment, strong thinking, good beliefs. What we reinforce gets replicated. And so if we can...

incur like give feedback to teachers about their thoughtful, adjustment of a scripted curriculum, right? I'm not talking about like literally burning the script. Like, please, please follow the curriculum. Please follow the curriculum, but have good judgment with it. Let's praise that. And that's the type of thinking that, pushes leaders to create more leaders to, to,

to give people the tools and access to the type of thinking that effective leaders need, which is reasoning and pattern recognition and naming problems clearly. Like all of those things that we teach leaders to do, teachers need to do, kids need to do, because that's what empowers people to take action.

Darrin Peppard (28:06.166)

Absolutely, I love that so, so very much. Man, Joe, our time has just absolutely flown by as we've dug into this conversation. We could probably go another hour on this topic, but we're at that point in the show. I'm gonna ask you the same question I ask everybody here on the show. It's the Leaning Into Leadership podcast. So Joe, how are you leaning into leadership right now?

Jo Lein (28:27.985)

I'm practicing. You knew this was probably going to be my answer. I'm just practicing. And actually, like, if we have that approach towards ourselves and don't take ourselves too seriously and really believe that every single moment is an opportunity to practice, like, it's less scary. We can make mistakes. We can learn quickly. And so the big thing is I'm practicing and I'm practicing out loud. So it's not scary.

to learn because that's it. We have to learn so our kids can learn. So I'm going to practice out loud.

Darrin Peppard (29:07.01)

I love that so very much. mean, when you take that perspective, when you take that mindset of this is practice, this is practice, this is practice, it does give you a little bit of that latitude to be okay with if I make a mistake, it's all right because I'm practicing right now. I'm practicing. That was an outstanding, outstanding answer. I love that one so very much. Joe, people are gonna want to get in touch with you. They're gonna wanna follow you. Folks, by the way, if you don't follow,

Joe on TikTok, you really need to. That honestly is how we connected. Man, so many things that Joe shares that just make you think a little bit differently, which of course this episode has done as well. So how do people find you? How do they connect with you?

Jo Lein (29:53.491)

Yep. So as you said, I'm on TikTok and Instagram at educoach by Joe and the substack is really where my best work is. So joelane.substack.com.

Darrin Peppard (30:09.378)

There we go, folks, we'll make sure all of that is down in the show notes so you can go and get in touch with Jo Lane. Man, this was so much fun. I'm so glad we had an opportunity to do this. The book, we'll have a link in the show notes for you as well so you guys can go and grab a copy of the book. Man, Jo, thank you so much for joining me here on Leaning Into Leadership.

Jo Lein (30:30.527)

Thank you, appreciate it.

Man, I told you this was gonna be a great conversation, a very powerful conversation. And I really appreciate Joe coming and joining us here on the podcast. I'm telling you, she is a fantastic follow on TikTok and on Instagram. And honestly, she's starting to put out some incredible content on Substack. So all that stuff is down in the show notes. Go link up with her and go get yourself a copy of her brand new book, Burn the Script. And now it's time for a pep talk.

If there's one thing that I hope you take away from today's episode, it's this. You don't get results that are different by doing more. You get results that are different by thinking differently. And that starts with you. It starts with being willing to challenge your own beliefs, your own patterns, and yes, even the scripts you've been following for years. Because leadership's not about compliance. Leadership is about clarity.

Darrin Peppard (04:25.036)

Yeah, I'm pretty sure I've said that here a few times. Leadership is about clarity. And it's about creating the conditions where people can actually grow. As you think about that growth, both for your team and for your students, remember that you don't have to do it alone. There are partners out there, like HeyTutor, that help schools build systems of support that actually move the needle for your students without adding more to your plate. There's partners like me at Roe Da Awesome.

to help your leadership team grow to be clear, to be intentional, and to truly walk in their purpose. So whether it's mindset, it's instruction, your leadership team, or your systems, the question becomes, what is it you are willing to rethink? Hey, as always, folks, thank you so much for joining me here on the Leaning Into Leadership podcast. Make sure you rate, review, and subscribe. Truly, folks, that helps to drive this algorithm. It gets more people the opportunity to listen.

to leading into leadership. Get out there, have a road to awesome week.