Episode 71 | HOPE-Fueled Leadership: How to Thrive Without Sacrificing Yourself with Carman Murray

0:00 Welcome to the Lead with Hope podcast, where we explore the power of habits, optimism, mindset, purpose, and excellence in leadership and in life. And today I'm talking to Carmen Murray. Carmen, why don't we just get started with you, telling the listeners a little bit about your background, your story, Tell them about you. Absolutely. Thank you for having me, Brandy. It's so great to be here. So a little bit about me. I live in Alberta, Canada. It's north of Calgary a little bit. And I spent years in a classroom, 15 of them. And I absolutely loved it until the moment I didn't. And I promised myself that I wasn't going to do things I didn't like to do.

0:45 And so there became a moment where the West seed was planted of, oh, do I want to do this anymore? And that seed, like most seeds, took sprout. And I began to question things. And then my health kind of took a little bit of a dive and I stepped out of education. I stepped out of the classroom knowing that I would never go back. Yeah. And it, yeah, it's so powerful to to kind of have these conversations in our heads when maybe the conversations in our heads aren't that healthy and really understand that there's something deeper going on that needs some deep healing. And that part for me was like a big eye opener for me.

1:30 I've done alternative healing for the past 20 years. And it was like, oh, there's more that needs to be taken care of. I need to do, I need to be looking after myself differently. And that led me into doing professional development for teachers. And one of my favorite places to be is in a room full of teachers having conversations about where they're at and what they're up to and their challenges and how simple mind shifts for themselves. And small tweaks in their classrooms can really shift their mindset and help their students as well as them in a profession that sometimes can be siloed and is so all-encompassing. Yeah, Carmen, we have so much in common. So much in common.

2:14 I started out as a school social worker and then got into leadership. And after 25 years, my journey sounds very similar to yours. I got to the point where I wasn't finding any joy in this journey anymore and my health started to take a dive. It started to take a toll. And you know, my mom died of cancer at the age of 44. And I believe in large part her health journey declined so rapidly due to the impact of stress on her life and, and her mindset. Because once she got that diagnosis, she lost hope. Yeah.

3:01 So, you know, my focus is on Wellness, resilience, this mental health issue with with our leaders. And I do believe everything rises and falls on leadership. But when you think about the teachers in our schools, our teachers are boots on the ground leaders in the classroom. And also there's a lot of teacher leaders out there that are carrying a lot of weight each and every day. So thinking back on your journey, Carmen, what experiences or lessons have had the biggest impact on you that you now have brought into your work with professional development? One of the biggest lessons for me was not going it alone, like thinking I had to do it by myself and that it was a badge of honor, a badge of strength.

3:59 But if I could do it by myself, that then you know what people could see that I was strong and that I could do things. And I believe that came from an upbringing, but also as well as, you know, just the teacher profession and, and, and just, you know, getting ourselves out there and doing the things that need to be done. And what I've learned is just because I can't do it or just because I can't do it myself, excuse me, doesn't mean I have to. And that it's for me, it's so much more fun to do it with someone else. It's like, can I have a conversation and can we generate ideas together as opposed to sitting in my basement doing it by myself struggling through. It's like, oh, I can connect with someone.

4:41 We can bring our ideas together. And for me, that sparks a joy. And also you talk about hope and I, I love your acronym Hope. And what it does for me is it builds this hope that there are other people out there doing what we do. And when we bring our minds together, it's so powerful. That ripple effect that shows up just by the conversation that you and I are having and the listeners that are listening. There might be something that we say that sparks hope for them and changes the trajectory just a little bit. Yeah. Or for some other people, it might be a lot, but there's like those tiny shifts that happen that we don't even sometimes recognize and they're. Huge, absolutely. And you know, you talk about mindset and you know that my acronym, you know, optimistic outlook, that's mindset. That's what I'm talking about.

5:32 And it all starts in the mind because when we think about our thoughts, our thoughts influence everything else that we do. And you know, scripture tells us take captive your thoughts and we're wired just the way we were created and the way we were wired. There's this negativity bias and a lot of our thoughts tend to go negative because we we can get stuck in that fear mode, what I call fear mode, as opposed to hope or love mode. And in fear mode, it's ruminating on those negative thoughts.

6:14 It's focusing on the fears and and allowing them to limit us in becoming the best version of ourselves, which, as you so aptly put Carmen, requires human connection. And I also like, I, I want to say that mind piece, when we have those negative thoughts in our mind or those thoughts that aren't great, they are reflected in our physical body. Like that's the other thing too, that is so important is when we're stressed up here, there's all this stuff going on in your body. And, and you talked about your mom in that when we lose hope and we live in that fear, there's a direct reflection that happens in our physical body, which then can sometimes hinder us from taking those action steps, like collaborating with others or connecting with a teacher down the hallway or taking a day off so that we can bring ourselves back so we have that hope again and go, Oh yes, I can do this and I don't have to do it alone.

7:14 Yeah, yeah, those limiting thoughts and and I think the most powerful tool that I have and that I share with leaders and and the people that I work with in my work now is just reframing that, you know that that simple reframe. So, you know, do an exercise like a thought journal and record even for seven days, record your thoughts and look at the patterns of your thoughts. You know, are you catastrophizing? Are you engaging in black and white thinking? How can you take those thoughts captive and reframe them instead of I have to, I get to right?

8:03 It's, it's simple shifts like that that really make all the difference. And if you look at statistics in our world today, the mental health statistics are staggering. There are so many anxious and depressed people in our world and coming up on the holidays and the holidays spark a lot of angst and uncertainty and, and depression in a lot of people. So tell me, based on on what you know, based on your work, what ways would you recommend that leaders, specifically leaders in our schools and our districts, how can they foster a workplace culture that prioritizes mental health and well-being? And why should they do that?

8:52 What are the key benefits for that? When I read that question, I got all excited in in your questions when I was prepping for the interview. I'm like, Oh yes, like those, those moments and those things that that seem so huge and can be so small. Like when I run my workshops with educators in the room, we always start with 10 breaths. We just pause and we take 10 breaths together. And one of the things I invite educators to do is every time you start a class, like if you teach high school, sometimes you only get the kids for chunks of the day. It's like, can you pause and give those kids a minute to take 10 breaths when they before they leave their classroom and in the cities go into a hallway of 1000 other kids? Can you give them those that minutes to do 10 breaths where they're calming their nervous system? They, they know they can walk out in the hall now and it's not going to just like be somebody's poking at them and, and they can't control themselves with that anxiety you talked about. I think it's so important for educators to be doing in our classrooms because educators are with kids, you know, 6 to 8 hours a day, depending on where you go to school and all of the things.

10:00 And can we give them those touch points where they can pause and teach them a tool that they can use? Like kids can do 10 breaths anytime. The other one that I feel really is really important. And I believe I heard you talk about this on one of your other podcasts with one of your other guests. Is this pause and reflect? Can we give kids students ourselves as educators and leaders? Because we're modeling, right? We're modeling what we want kids to do. Can we give them time to just sit and pause and reflect on what just happened? And it's interesting because when I think about kids and when I taught in the classroom, it's more likely that we're having a kid reflect on what they did wrong.

10:44 When an incident has happened, it's like, can we give them a moment to reflect on their morning? What went well? What are you grateful for? Who helped you out? And those kind of moments so they can slow their nervous system down, realize what their gratitude, have gratitude for and take that moment to be in that gratitude before they continue. And also reframing things. It's like, oh, if this is how my morning went, how do I want my afternoon to look or things like that where they can take, they can look back and look at their regrets, not as negative things that are like weighing them down, but look at their regrets and go, oh, I want to change that for this afternoon. I think those are those are powerful things that can be done in classrooms.

11:33 And it feels like sometimes it feels like teachers have so much to do and I totally want to honor all that they do. And it's like, can you still give those moments of pause and reflect for yourself and the students? Because I think that's really important that teachers take that time with students as opposed to it being something that they have to do at recess or when they're wolfing down their lunch or whatever that is. Can you pause and take 10 breaths with those kids and let your nervous system calm down? Yeah. And in preparation for this recording today, I listened to your podcast episode with Sam Demma. Sam, it's amazing. Yes, I love him too. And I was excited when I saw that you had been on his show because I too, have been a guest on his show. He came out to Illinois here at Mount Olive and he did an assembly at the high school with our students. And Sam is just a great person.

12:29 So plug for Sam Demma and, and his podcast, if you haven't listened to it, I highly recommend it. He's a great person, a great speaker, and you know, I, I call him a friend, so highly recommend him. But I, I digress. Getting back on top, Harman, when when you were talking to him, you were talking about the fact there are so many things that our kids can do and we can help them to, you know, establish some life skills. So if you start your day with those 10 breaths, the teacher doesn't have to lead them. If if you train a student to lead that activity, then the teacher can model what a learner looks like. So it's kind of a win, win and.

13:28 I love, I love what you're doing right now because you're pausing and you're. Reflecting. And you're giving yourself permission to recall something rather than all of this pressure. It's like recall, recall, recall. It's just like, oh, can we sit and just be for a moment or two or 4 and allow the wisdom that we have within us to come forth as opposed to us being on demand. And one of the things, and I think Sam and I talked about this is, and you and I talked about this before, is unfortunately, our system is pumping out overwhelmed, anxious young people, whether they're 5 or 18 or 19.

14:14 And it breaks my heart that we are sending these humans out into the world that don't have the skill set to share their gift with the world. Yeah. And when they're almost in height. When we have all of this pressure and we put this pressure on ourselves, on our students, on the staff in our schools, and that's what we're seeing, there's all this cortisol that's flooding our brain. And I remember that so well. You know, in my last season of the superintendency, the last probably two months, it was just pressure, pressure, pressure and constant cortisol flooding my brain. And that's what I really saw, my health start to decline. That's what my doctor said to me. You've got to do something different. This is not good for you and you're not going to get better as long as you stay in an environment where you cannot heal, where you cannot recover from the pressure. And that requires sometimes for us to step away, but not always. And I think if if you employ the strategies that you teach to teachers and that I teach to leaders proactively and get really clear on the vision and do some backward mapping on creating the habits and the

15:46 mindset, connecting with that purpose piece to get the life you want, you are going to be much more successful in living a healthy life where you're prioritizing your mental health and your Wellness. And it's it's I was just looking at your HOPE acronym here on a piece of paper beside me. And like you talked about when you were going to your doctor, when your doctor, that excellence that you wanted to provide as a Superintendent was starting to wane. And as teachers, when we hit that point, like I know when I hit that point, I didn't know that I'd hit that point. And the people that were around me were telling me that I'm like, like, I'm like, I'm strong.

16:27 I can do this. These kids need me. And so it's like, can we go back to that purpose? And that passion is if we are don't have that passion about our purpose, it's really powerful to step away. And I don't know about the culture in the United States, but sometimes the culture in Canada is that when you step away and take a leap of absence, there's stigma around it, I guess, and that you're not strong. And for me, I beg to differ. I'm like, if you have the courage to step away to take care of yourself, that makes you even stronger because you are prioritizing yourself. And teachers often don't it again, it breaks my heart.

17:09 So some of the teachers that are in my workshops and when I do conventions and, and different speaking things is they are so exhausted. But like me, they are so invested that they can't step away. And the other thing that happens is we have another life, right? I have two kids, I have a husband, I live on a ranch. So there are lots of other things that need to be done and there's and there's a need for energy and capacity outside the classroom. And that for me, when I left teaching, I had none. And I made a decision that I wanted to spend more time with my own children instead of giving it away to other people's children.

17:51 Not that I didn't love other people's children, but I'm like, I want my kids to get the best part of me. Absolutely. And you know, the, the sobering fact about this conversation that we are having here today is that no matter who you are or where you serve or even what you do, whether you're a teacher or a leader or a paraprofessional, it doesn't matter what you do. When I left the superintendency and prioritized my own health, within the space of about a month, they had a replacement. They replaced me. They moved on. As important as you are, and I want the listeners to hear this, you are important and I value you and I care about you. We have to prioritize and we have to normalize that. And our world is so fast-paced.

18:45 And it has come back to my mind, the aha moment that I had when you were speaking earlier about students reflecting and writing down, you know, just a reflection of their morning. We kind of still focus on that medical model where we look at what's wrong, we look at what's wrong. What if we shifted that and we focused on a strength based perspective. Reflect, but reflect on what is right because when you whatever you focus on is what grows. So if I focus on what's wrong, I'm amplifying that. If I focus on what's right, I'm also amplifying that.

19:28 So make a choice and choose wisely to focus on the strengths rather than the deficits. Yeah, I love that reminder of that focusing on on the strengths and that gratitude piece that could come in about what we do focus on, expand. So why would we focus on the -1 of the things I also wanted to circle back about the student leadership was when you talked about the kids leading the 10 breaths. That is such a powerful model because in leadership, we want to, we want to support kids in leadership. And we, you know, we know, we all know we've got kids that walk into classrooms, into buildings that have got leadership down and it's like in their blood. And then there's kids that struggle with it. And then there's kids that just like have had no opportunity to lead. And what I love about moments of having kids lead the 10 breaths or having kids lead a game or.

20:18 Kids love, well, most kids, I shouldn't say all kids, most kids love to be up in front of a classroom and teaching and leading something and sharing something that is a gift or something that they love to do. So can we begin to foster those leadership skills, especially in the kids who have never been taught or don't even understand that they there are these skills and that they can acquire them and they can practice them in a safe place in a classroom. And what the tenfold piece for this is, that means that teachers aren't leading everything all the time. It's like, can you model it a couple times? Then can you invite kids to do it? And can you learn from, you know, the kids that are struggling and have those conversations and the support and that collaboration and teamwork so that everybody can feel successful?

21:05 And there's this Co creation that goes on in the classrooms. I love Co creating kids with kids. When I was in my classrooms, in fact, some of the favorite projects and lessons I taught, I was like, OK, this is what we need to do. What do we want to do? And we plan out the whole project together. And then the kids were totally invested in it because all of their ideas were interwoven into it. And I didn't have to like, it's back to that don't have to do it by yourself piece, that collaboration piece. Let's get 2535 bodies out collaborating. And there's so much more engagement and fun. And I'm not pulling them along. They're showing me new cool things. Yeah, and you're fostering ownership and they're learning, you know, and I think leaders that are listening to this today too can learn from that model as well because there's a lot of initiatives and there's a lot of things that need to get done in a school or a district.

22:04 And when you do that with your staff and you give them voice and you give them choice, you're fostering ownership in every initiative that you're leading. As a Superintendent, I Co created a strategic plan with our board and then our leadership team created the the goals and objectives that went along with that. And keeping that vision, not only collaborating, but then keeping it in front of the people and driving that vision forward. It's powerful. It's powerful to create that change that we seek in our schools and in our districts, and I love. What you say about that, it's front and center, right? When we talk about pause and reflect, we don't do it once and then it's like, OK, we've done the pause and reflect. We've checked it off.

22:58 It's like, how can we we revisit it and it becomes a habit. Excuse me. And that's one of the things like for me, I have a coaching group of educators and there's some non educators in it. And we meet on a weekly basis. And that touch point, sometimes it's half an hour, sometimes it's an hour, reminds people of like the direction they're facing, what they're working on so that they can aim in that direction as opposed to walk out in the world and get lost because there's so much going on in our world, There's so much chaos. We're organizing. And when we can go. Oh, yeah, I'm facing the right direction today. And there are days when we're not. There are days when we're just like what happened in my day. I I have not been facing the right direction. And those touch points with the kids in your classroom, sometimes the colleagues down in the hallway remind you of where you're going and what you're up to. And then the other stuff that distracts us can fall away and we can head in the direction that we're choosing. And I know in your work, you do stuff on values and I love like I love values.

24:03 I use Drew Dudley's values all the time in the work that I do because it's like, oh, how can I align my choices today with my core values? And then I feel like I'm showing up authentically me and in, in teaching values in classrooms. And you and I talked about this a bit as well. It gives students the vocabulary for something that's a little bit intangible when it comes to speaking about values, where they're like, oh, these are examples. This is what values look like and can sound like and how I can act on my values. So it's so powerful to give the language to people. And you do that in your program, and I do that in my program. And then those touch points, it's like, how do we touch points?

24:47 Or how do we touch base with people and go, OK, how are you doing and not on a meet your neighbor in the grocery store, how are you doing? Yeah, I'm fine. Kind of conversation, but a deeper conversation of what's really going on under the surface that we don't always talk about. And sometimes we're not safe to talk about in our workplaces. But finding those places as a leader where you can talk about the stuff that's real like I used to. You were talking earlier and it made me think when I drove to school the last probably year that I worked in my classroom, my arms ached from my shoulders down about four minutes after I left my house. They would ache for about 5 minutes and then it would be done. And it was the stress and anxiety in my body. And it's just like, those are the things that we don't always talk about that we need to unpack with a friend, a colleague, or even a paid professional because it's not going to go away.

25:44 It's going to head head people in the direction that you and I have both been in, where it's just like we had to walk away. Yeah, and and that, you know, long term that stress, you can go back to Doctor Nadine Burke Harris's work and she wrote the book The Deepest. Well, I don't know if you've read that before, but it talks about, she talks about the Aces study and, and how trauma manifests in the body when it is unresolved. But you can work through that and you can heal from that. And there are very simple strategies that you can implement into your daily life to heal from that and to move forward. And for those people that are investing, they're like, oh, I would never walk away no matter what.

26:28 Well, start today, then start today and start investing in yourself so that you have longevity in the purpose and the passion that you call your your job. Your role. Whatever that may be. So with that, I know you've been doing this work for some time Carmen, and I'm curious, do you have a story of why hope is important? A story maybe of some hope fueled leadership? I. Actually want to share a story with student leaders? Actually perfectly about 5 or 6 years ago, 'cause I volunteered with student leadership across Canada and various different things, and I was in Ontario and got to hang out with 500 student leaders from across Canada. It's so amazing.

27:16 But I was volunteering here locally and I did some meditation with kids with like 16 to 18 year old kids, probably a room full of about 25 or 30 of them. And we're just doing this pause. And they're just sitting quietly. And me up at the front as teachers have done, sorry, as teachers will have done in the past, is you're up there and you're wondering if what you're doing matters, right? Is, is this helpful? Are they thinking this is dumb? Like these are the thoughts that are going through my mind. And so I just, I sit with it. I sit with my uncomfortableness. And after this 2 minutes of silence, the kids shared their experience and I had one young person go like they were in tears because no one has ever given the permit them permission to just pause.

28:10 It blew my mind. And that person actually left the leadership program because they had too many things on their plate and too many great things on their plate. And I think that happens. Because. Sometimes we have too many great things on our plate and we're like, oh, I have too many things on my plate, so I can't lean into something else. And that's one of the things that I find when I work with teachers in my program is they're like, oh, this is the best thing that's happened to me and that I've made space because what I do with you doesn't actually take extra time. It takes what I'm already doing and refining it so that I can actually show up. Enjoy with hope about what I do in my classrooms or in my life so that I am excited and show up with that excited energy instead of dragging themselves into their classrooms.

29:01 Absolutely. That's a powerful story and a wonderful reminder for our listeners that we need to model pausing for our kids. We need to again normalize the fact that we're human beings and there are some life skills that we as educators can teach our kids and help them to reach their fullest potential. So that's a powerful. Story and I want to share one other quick story too. Leadership students. Again, I was in St. John, NB, with leadership kids and I did the 10 breaths we talked about earlier in this podcast.

29:42 And later next day, a young lady's like, oh, Carmen, thank you for teaching me those. I'm like, oh, you're welcome. She's like, no, no, no, no, you don't understand. Like, OK, tell me more 'cause I want to know. And she's like those 10 breaths had saved her two panic attacks in the last 24 hours. Wow, yeah. I was like blown away. And so if if we can take a total of 10 minutes out of our day and save kids panic attacks, sign me up. Oh, 100 percent, 100%. And you don't know what people are carrying. You know, the kids in our schools, the teachers in our schools, the leaders in our schools.

30:22 We're dealing with people and the people. Business can be messy. There's a lot of baggage in our schools and our districts. And these very simple, practical tools can really help people. I wish many, many years ago that I had learned the things that I know now. You know, how powerful would it be as a student in high school or even junior high or elementary school to learn some of these strategies? I was well into adulthood before I learned some of these things. And we as educators have the power to teach our kids these strategies, to teach each other these strategies and to model them.

31:06 And that gives me hope. So what gives you hope today as we're talking? I love that question because the young people that I get to interact give me hope. Like that's one thing, One big thing that gives me hope and the other thing that gives me hope. And you reminded me earlier when you were talking about healing and trauma is healing is this idea that we can the things that are wonky in our bodies that aren't working and in our minds and like our whole being and in our environments. And so that's another thing that gives me hope is I get to decide who I want to be and how I want to show up in this world and the impact and the ripple effect I have. And the more that I can give myself grace and space to heal my own traumas, the more I'm able to offer what I meant to be here for to the world just like you do. It's just like, how can we step out of the burnout, step into alignment with our values, and lead from that place in what we're truly meant to do in this world? I love it so much and I think that there are going to be people that are listening to this podcast today that want to get into contact with you, Carmen. So how would the listeners get in touch? With you, you could get in touch with me via e-mail. So it's Carmen CARMANI joke.

32:26 It's one car and one man at at healthyteachers.ca. My website is www.healthyteachers.ca and you can also check out the book that I wrote for teachers on burnout. You can see the if you're on video, you can see the Teachers First poster behind me, Teachers First, a guide to avoiding an overcoming burnout in the classroom. Just to support you and help you along in your journey. Yeah, and I'd love to hear from you. I'm also on Instagram and LinkedIn. I love the image too. It's an image of an apple on fire. Love it, love it.

33:06 Carmen And Carmen, I am grateful that you join me today on the Lead With Hope podcast. So, as always, keep leading with hope. Thanks so much, Brandy. Thank you so much for tuning into today's episode of Lead with Hope, where we believe that leadership rooted in habits, optimistic mindset, purpose, and excellence can truly change the world. I'd love to ask you for a small favor that makes a big impact. Help me spread hope. Share this episode with a friend or a colleague who could use a little encouragement today. And if this conversation inspired you, please take a moment to head over and give the show a five star rating. It helps others find us and keeps the message of hope growing strong.

33:58 I'm also excited to share something new with you, the Hope Fueled Kickstart. This is a powerful short term, one-on-one coaching experience designed to help leaders like you reclaim your vision, reset your mindset, and reignite your purpose so you can lead with hope again. To learn more about the Kickstart program, just click the link in the show notes. Until next time, remember the world needs your leadership and change starts with you. Fuel your life with hope, embrace your purpose, and shine your light for others.