🎙️ Episode 76 | Juggling the Job of Leadership with Dr. Robert Thornell

0:06 Welcome to Lead with Hope, the podcast where we explore the power of hope, leadership, and resilience in today's world. I'm Brandy Kelly, and each week I will bring you stories, insights, and actionable advice from leaders, innovators, and change makers who are using hope as their compass to navigate challenges, create positive impact, and inspire others to do the same. Whether you're a seasoned leader or just beginning your journey, this podcast is here to remind you that no matter the obstacle, hope is the fuel that can drive transformation. So, let's dive in and discover how you can lead with hope. Hey, everybody.

0:59 Welcome back to the Lead with Hope podcast. I'm Brandy Kelly, your host, and today I'm honored to have Doctor Rob Thornell. He is a school leadership coach with the Center for Model Schools and the author of Inside the Principal's Office and Juggling the Job, both Amazon bestsellers. With over 30 years in education, including roles as Principal and Deputy Superintendent, he is passionate about mentoring leaders and shaping the future of schools. Welcome to the podcast, Rob. I think it makes me sound old when you say over 30 years doesn't. It you know what, it beats the alternative, right? That's right. That's right. So I love the first question that I get to ask people when they come on my show.

1:43 I love hearing about people's stories from their voice, from their lived experience. So let's start there. Tell us about your story. Oh, my goodness. Well, my, my story for school, I just, I always wanted to be a teacher. For one thing. I always wanted to be a teacher. And I always really dreamed of being in that kind of one classroom for 30 years, that kids would come back and see me and everything like that. And yeah, I think I ended up getting into administration mostly because I can't keep my mouth shut. And, and but no, I've been very fortunate over over the course of my career to have people that kind of tapped on my shoulder and said, hey, you ought to try this, You ought to try this. And, and that's really kind of my passion, what I hope to do to others and hopefully I have done for others. But you know, I started out as elementary principal and loved that job so much. But then I also, I again got tapped on the shoulder, got encouraged to go into the middle school world and boy, that was a just a different opportunity.

2:38 I mean it and I loved it. I mean, I, I feel like that's kind of where I, I, I got to blossom a little bit and do things and, and learn things as an experienced administrator. And then, you know, in both of those schools, I will say we're, we're title one schools. And so I, I have kind of, kind of learned with that population in mind of students and I've enjoyed that very much and, and continue to enjoy working with kids of all different times and that, you know, diverse students. So that was it. And then I, you know, I went into, again, got tapped on the shoulder a little bit by a mentor of mine, Superintendent said, Hey, you ought to try this. And so I went into curriculum instruction at the central office level, kind of a large suburban district outside of Dallas, Fort Worth. And, you know, did a, did a little bit of that and a lot of professional learning and curriculum stuff. And then I went into it and moved, just moved up to assistant Superintendent.

3:28 And I think one of the things I loved most about that was we were growing fast as a district. And so there was a need to hire principals, train assistant principals. You know, we've got to develop our training program kind of an in house 1 to try to help people. And, and that just was read in my, my past and my dissertation was on mentoring first year principals. And so again, that's my story is how can we get these administrators to do better? And so that's kind of what I've done. And then I retired and, and have been working as a coach, you know, for the last three or four years, just trying to help people and gotten to be all over the country and see in different schools. And that's just brought a whole different perspective, I think to to what what I thought I knew about schools and what I'm learning now. So I learned as much from them as they do for me. And I'm sure that's kind of my journey. That's an amazing journey and I'm hearing that theme of mentoring and just helping those new leaders grow kind of permeate through and we're going to come back to that effort to get to know you a little bit better. I'm going to ask follow up question. What is something in your life or leadership? Some little small thing?

4:37 I say that the simple things are the big things, the small things are the big things. So, you know, what are the little things that bring you joy in life? Oh, in life, not just in life. I think that, you know, it may sound funny, but my wife is an elementary principal and at least a couple days a week, we sit in our little room that we call our parlor and have a glass of wine or something and, and just talk about school and, and, and we, you know, and it's just, I know that it may, it may sound fun to talk shop like that, but that's a relaxing time, I think for both of us and something that, you know, that I really, really enjoy nowadays.

5:18 I think, I think the other thing that I, I, I'm an avid reader and, and one of the things that I think means a lot to me is not so much just the reading, but it, it brings me joy when, when one of two things happens, one, somebody recommends a book to me because I think it's, it's, it, it just means, Hey, they thought about me or they thought I would like that book and that's a connection. And then I also the same thing. I love it when people ask me, Hey, you have a book recommendation. When I in my office at my, and before I retired, I had just, you know, rows and rows of books and people would stop by and say, Hey, I'm trying to learn this. And so I, I don't know why, but that just comes to mind. That's it. That's a joyful connection that I feel like I make with people.

5:59 It's just over books. Yeah. Connection. Both of those simple joys that you just talked about have connection in common. So that's that's really cool. And I don't know about you, but since I've become an author, something that's opened up even more is having friends who have written books. And I know we exchanged books and just being able to share that with one another and share our a little bit more our story and our journey. The journey's fun. It is. It's a lot of fun. So going back to that theme of mentorship, you know, you've talked about serving as a principal, as a district leader and now a leadership coach. Do you have any stories along the way that you would be able to share today that it really shaped the way you lead or the work you're doing now?

6:47 Oh man, I probably have, I had probably have a million stories and, and I a lot come to mind. I think. I think one of them that comes to my mind is, you know, it takes a while even as a mentor to realize not everybody's going to do it the way you do. And I have a particular individual that I supervised that I'll be honest with you, didn't necessarily connect right away. And I, and I put that a lot on me as I did. I was trying to make him something that he wasn't. And, and I think that that I learned a lot from that because he was very talented individual and as a mentor and as a supervisor. However, that's stepping back and knowing that everybody has different styles and appreciating that and knowing that my role could have been better served realizing that sooner and going through that.

7:39 And that's one that I kind of, I, I still reach out to him or some contact, but sometimes I, I have actually said that to him personally. But I think that that's something that I try to keep in mind now in my role is that, you know, that not everybody's a, a ground peg and a square hole or whatever that is. So, so that is one that that comes to my mind for sure. I think that is realizing people's differences and their strengths and go going forward with that. And and so I, I, I do try to keep that in mind as a learning learning tool for myself. Yeah. And as a leader, our job is to get to know our people, to connect with our people and to meet them where they're at. It's it's about the service to the people that we're we're leading in our organizations.

8:21 And that's not always easy because sometimes those people are saying you're doing hurtful things. There's, there's a lot that we carry with us in our stories depending on our lived experience. And I think as a leader, just going back to that mindset of what is it that they need? Not what I need, but what they need. And that's sometimes easier said than done. I will say I do have a proud moment though. I, one of the things when I was a, a fairly new deputy Superintendent, I sat around, I, I remember this meeting vividly, but I've sat around the table with, with my team and as you will.

9:02 And, and one of the things I told them in that initial meeting was, you know, 2 years from now, we're all sitting around here at the same table. And I haven't done my job because you're too talented to to be here. And, and I, I look back at that and every single one of those people has moved on and, and then promoted then, then better gone farther than I ever have even imagined it and hoped for. And, and, but I hope that I played a small piece of that. But I do I, I will say that was always my mentality. You know you're you need to do bigger and better things. Absolutely it is. It's about growth and and making other people better. It's of whatever we're doing. I love that. That's amazing. Now both of your books highlight some key principles.

9:43 I think they both have 5. Same five, yeah. The same 5 principles. So, if you will, can you unpack those five principles briefly and share with us why you chose those 5? OK, yeah, I, I mean, and I don't think that there, you know, it's not rocket sanded, right? There's so many, so much literature out there around affected principles and whatnot. But you know, when I started trying to package that and think would I, would I, I viewed as a real successful principal, I came up with five things that I think that they do. And I think almost any of our activities fall under those. You know, one of them is obviously instructional leadership. You know, and I do feel like at the end of the day, kids have to learn at your school. I think that's a responsibility that you have. You know, you give them, you give them that hope factor, you give them, you believe in them and everything that goes with that.

10:30 But one of your responsibilities is, is instructional leadership and, and I take into that helping your teachers get better. You know, I, I, I actually told a group yesterday, I was with a group of principals I was with yesterday. One of the things that just drives me nuts is when I hear a principal say, well, I just hire good teachers and get out of their way. I, I, I understand the mentality, but I, I, I think that you're kind of shirking your own responsibilities when you say that. And, and so I, I again, so instructional, instructional leadership, and that's something that, you know, I really value. And I felt like that was a strength of mine. But then the next one is servant leadership. And I, and I think servant leadership is something that a lot of times I talk about the IT factor with principles. And I think that servant leadership piece is that, you know, it kind of goes along even with your book a little bit if you could, but it's that idea, you know, that one's the hardest one to teach, right?

11:23 I can teach you to be an instructional leader, but that servant leadership, a lot of that does become kind of just your interaction, your, your, your, your personal skills and, and things of that. And so, and I try to give some hints and some things because even though I do think it's a natural ability, I, I think there's some things you can learn to be intentional about. And so we talked about, you know, I talk about that a lot, you know, whether it's giving grace to people when they make mistakes, because you know what, as a principal, you're going to make mistakes and you're going to want grace from your staff. So you know, and be, and to be generous with your time. And I, I used to say be generous with your prayers, your presence, your gifts and your service. And I just say it real fast like that. But that's that, you know, we want to be generous with those things. And, and you know, and, and so servant leadership is the second one. And then, you know, go from there. The third one is you, you got to be a learner. You know, principals can't stop learning. If we want to, we want to keep up with the times. If we want to be innovative and try new things, we, we've got to, we've got to be intentional about learning. And, you know, so I try to give ideas about how to do that. But I do think that I think that that sometimes we feel like we get too busy to stop and and do some learning for ourselves. And whether that's reading a book or an article or going to see another school or whatever it is, there's a lot of a million things you can do.

12:33 But I think it's important to do that and to model it for your staff. Yeah, I said when I was a principal that I was the lead learner. Yes, that's right, you. Got to be the lead learner, you know, And I will tell you one of the things that I held dear when I was an assistant principal, my principal, and this was back in the old days before everything was electronic because I'm old. But you know, you'd get all those journals and stuff in the mail and they would just pile up on the corner of the desk. And, and that my principal at the time, she said, you know, I need you to spend an hour a week where you shut the door and read and, and, and I was like, I can't do that. I'm too busy. You know, you do that, you know, and, and, and don't feel guilty about it. And so I usually broke it up in 230 minute sections, but that stayed with me for the next 20 years of my career.

13:15 And, and, and I think it really helped. And I think it's OK to do that. You know, then I then I talk a lot. And one of the things that really hit me over COVID was this idea of sharing your story. You've got to be a good communicator. And the reason I bring up COVID is, you know, one of the things that I found real quick is that you could tell which principles were in tune with being able to communicate electronically and do different things and share their story and which ones had some catching up to do, you know, when the whole world changed. But beyond that, I just, I just think, you know, in our, in our, this day and age of our education system is sharing the story of your school is important. And then you communicate with your, your staff. You can communicate with your kids, but also just the community as a whole, you know, and, and whether it, whether you're a big social media person or not, what are your ways? One of the things I share with them. So just be consistent.

14:04 You know, you know, my dad, he used to get mad in the mornings when the newspaper was late because he wanted to read it before he went to work, right. You know, and, and so, hey, if I know that I'm getting something from the principal every Monday, that's fine. Just I, I, I don't have to hear from you every day. But when it's sporadic and you don't know when you're getting, I think that people need consistency with their communication. They do. And I, I think what played into that too, Rob, with COVID was there was so much uncertainty around COVID and so much trauma. And you know, people, they come to us with different circumstances, They come to us with different past experiences. And that consistency creates stability, which creates trust. And that's what we need for relationships. And when the uncertainty is higher and in our world today, the uncertainty is higher, people need that hope. They need that consistency which gives them hope for a better future.

15:04 And God forbid something that does traumatic or tragic happen at your campus, you don't want that to be the first letter that you've ever sent to your staff or the first time that, you know, the first time the community sees your face that that trust needs to be built months and years before that. So that when something does happen, you know, and I used to say, so they give you the benefit of the doubt, right? If I trust somebody, then I hear something bad about them, I'm going to at least give them the benefit of the doubt and pause, whether it's about them personally or about their school or whatnot. So I just, you know, I just, and I see that because that is an area that I don't think we really get trained enough. The principals don't get trained and some people do it and it's just part of what they they're, they're good at it and and others don't.

15:47 But I just think, you know, that's, it's very, very important. How do we share our story with our school And if for a variety of reasons, right? And, and so that's one of my pillars there. And then the last one, I kind of combined two things. I combined celebrations and reflections together. And the reason I do that, I say, if you're, if you're celebrating something, that's an automatic reflection because something happened. But I, I just think sometimes it's important to pause and say, you know, how are things going? What could, what could we have done differently? You know, whether it's a big initiative, whether it's just on a Friday afternoon, what did my week look like? But I also think what you celebrate and what is, is important because it communicates to your staff and to your students and what you think is important, you know, kind of going back to Share your story.

16:32 But, you know, I laugh all the time. If the only thing I ever see on your website or your social media is the athletics department, then I don't know anything about your Fine Arts and what, what message are you sending? Not that that's a bad thing, but but that's my message is it's got to be a little bit of everything. And so that celebration reflection piece is really important to me. I'm a journal guy. And so I would have, I always had a journal going with me all the time that I would reflect on and think about my and ideas. And so I just think again, those five things kind of in a, in a nutshell, can help a principal be more, more effective, you know, and, and all of them can be done intentionally, right? There's activities you can do for them that it, that can, that can, you know, help shape your school culture and your campus. Yeah, and I think every one of those things you can embed within your your culture and it's going to help you to have a stronger climate, a stronger culture, and it's going to build that connection and that trust that we know is so important in our schools.

17:31 Those are amazing pillars. I, I really like specifically if I had to pick one out of all of them, I think the sharing your story would be my #1 because I do think your story is so incredibly important. But then my #2 would be the celebrations and reflections. And I think that when I started, I've been in education for this would would have been my 25th year in education. And I think it's changed a little bit because of the demands. They have increased so much in our schools and our districts. But reflection comes for most educators, in my experience, it is something that comes pretty naturally.

18:15 But as the demands have increased, they don't feel like they have time. And when they do some of the things that they know are going to help them be better educators, they feel guilty because they're not doing the tasks. But I think the reflection really helps you to be a better educator. It does. And I mean, and I, and I try to even pass that down to teachers like, let's stop. How did this, how did this unit go? How did that lesson go? And, and so that we don't teach it the same way we did last time, you know, let's make it a little bit better. And it just, it, it, it, it does come down to time, right? Which is the whole premise of the juggling job, right? You're juggling so many different things. And how do you how do you do that effectively? Yeah. And I think as a leader, it is our responsibility to not just continue to add more to the teachers plate.

19:01 I mean, at some point we've got to take something off before we put something on. And that's easier said than done, like most things in education. But I think we need to do a better job of that in our schools and our districts because teachers, leaders, all of our school staff, they're just trying to juggle way, way more than is humanly possible. I will tell you, I love that you picked those two because I think most people tend to either go to instructional leadership or servants leadership right away, which is natural because of the job duties, right? And I think that the other things that are not the have to's, those are what enhances that. It makes it better. But but but you got to recognize that. So that's I appreciate you saying that. That's that's that's neat.

19:43 Most people don't. Yeah, I recognize they're all important. But right now in the season that I am in life, I think those two things are just what really stick out to me. And it's because the the connection part, the relationship part is so focused in that area and we live in a very connected. Technologically connected with social media and all those things in a very connected world, but it also a world where a lot of people are very lonely. And you know, in my book I talk about building teacher efficacy, self efficacy and using the four sources. Bandura calls those the four sources of self efficacy and it's mastery experiences.

20:30 You know, we have to have a belief that we can do things and then vicarious experiences and that's what you're talking about with that reflection and then talking to your colleague about how things have went and of course the effective States and the social persuasion. Those are the four ways that we build belief in our self and the other people in our schools. And we have to build that time in as leaders for people to reflect and to build that self efficacy and collective teacher efficacy. That's. Right, that's exactly right. You know, I, John Dewey, I use this slide a lot. John Dewey says we don't learn from experience, we learn from reflecting on our experiences. Exactly and. That's that's true, right?

21:12 Yeah. So with that said, what advice would you give new leaders stepping into a role today for success? You know I'm from Texas, right? So my first, my first rule of advice is always this Don't take down offense until you know why it was put up. That's great advice, yes. But but short of that, you know, I, if I were, if I were coaching a new principal, I would, I would get them to reflect and think about what would you want to know if you're a new boss? What would you want to know about your boss? You know, and, and then share that, you know, share about yourself, whatever, whatever that is. I think that, you know, I know a mistake I made is my first year as a principal was I didn't realize that what I said, what became the law, right?

22:01 It became policy. I mean, I I knew that intellectually, but until you feel it and experience it. And so a lot of times I'll tell the story about, you know, the principal before me was a big summer birthday. Maybe we hold these kids back, especially the young boys in first grades. And you know, I, I didn't really have a big opinion on it because I had never dealt with that. I was like a fourth, fifth grade teacher anyway. By the spring of my first year, my first grade teachers, they were getting ready to hold like 20 kids back. And I'm like, we're not doing this. And, but the same time I didn't really know why we weren't doing it right. I just felt like this was different. And, and so again, that kind of goes back to kind of know, getting to know your staff, getting to know the belief system that they've been under and why and how that changes. So I, I do think I, you know, some people will say, hey, don't change.

22:53 I'm not changing anything the first year. I'm just going to listen and learn. And I, and I tell people, you can't say that. Don't, don't make that promise. Don't, don't make that promise. I, I say, I hired you for a reason. You're here to leave this school. And so there are going to be things now do it, do it with caution. Don't, don't jump in and be too hardcore. You got to get to know your people. You got to get to know you, but don't promise that you're not going to change anything. That, that. And so those, those are kind of those things. It's like, don't change things too quick, but don't promise you're not going to change them. You're there for a reason. So I guess that that's some of my, my biggest advice. And then and then go, go from there. You know, you got to kind of kind of learn those things. I think, I think for a new principal, one of the other ones I gives visibility.

23:36 Be out there, be out there, be out there both with your communication, social media and everything, but be out there in the hallways and get to know the kids and the teachers and the parents and and all of them. You know, too many people, even though we all say that too many people get stuck in their office. They do. You've got to schedule it. I mean, that's what worked for me, and everybody's different, but I had to actually put it on my calendar, and if I didn't, it didn't happen. Yep. And and so be visible, yeah. And. And again, to me, visibility is it is walking the halls and doing that, but it's also again, visibility by sharing your story, you know what, what is out there, you know however you do it newsletter wise, there should be some. Whatever your format is, let them know what you think. And I, and again, I think that that helps the, your community get to know you.

24:27 What, what do you believe about education, right? You're, you're sharing those stories and those are, those are important things. And so, and I think that's, that is a huge piece. You know, when I, when I work, I get the opportunity sometimes to work with aspiring administrators. That piece gets missed in just our master's programs on how to be a principal and we talk about instructional leadership. We talk about this and that, but that visibility and that communication piece gets missed. Yeah, Here in Illinois, when I became a principal back in, let's see, that would have been 2012 was my first principal position. There was no mentoring. It was just whatever the district could provide. And I was in a small rural district.

25:08 It was my hometown where I grew up, and I was super excited to be there. It had kind of been a dream of mine. But if I could do anything differently, if I could tell my younger self two things to do, it would have been get to know yourself better. That self-awareness piece, I've done a lot of work on that over the years with the disk assessment, Working Genius, Enneagram, values assessments. Got to know yourself. You got to know who, what your fears and your blind spots, your motivations are. And then the other one is be intentional about getting to know the people you serve because you can't identify the needs in your school or your district, how to make those teachers better, how to lead instructionally, how to lead as a servant, how to share the school story if you don't know your people.

26:00 So those are two big things that I think go along with what you are saying that I would tell my younger self. Again, I was working with a group of principals this week and one of the things I said is, you know, a couple questions to ask your staff, ask yourself about your staff is do you know, what are your aspirations and how can I help you get there? And I said, you should be able to answer that question about every staff member. And, and it takes a little time to do that, but to get to know them, you know, that's getting to know them past, Hey, what's your spouse's name and what and how many kids do you have? Those are important, but what do they really feel and believe? What makes them tick? And then two additional comments, Rob, that I would add to that is making sure that on a regular basis you're telling your staff you matter or I care about you because and I noticed that. I noticed.

26:53 That that you're putting in the extra effort. I noticed that just letting them know that you are noticing those little things when they're, you know, when they're going a lot and beyond. You mentioned books earlier, a book that really helps me with my leadership style. You're going to laugh when I say this was the five love languages, but we read it together, right? And, and it's supposed to be in its design, you know, for a marriage type thing. But if you know that book, it talks about recognizing how different people, you know, want to be heard and want to be felt. And, and, and I, I learned that, you know, from anything from some staff members, they want to be recognize publicly where other staff members would rather that be private, you know, would prefer a note from me or something. And learning those types of things about your staff can go a long way.

27:41 Yeah. Absolutely. Doctor Chapman has expanded his his book offerings and he has one now for the workplace, 5 languages, 5 love languages for the workplace and then he has one for children as well. So being a being a newer Nana, I, I'm going to buy the one for children. So I make that with my my big grandbabies. It's. Great. Yeah, that, yeah, that's. Fun. So you said that you work a lot with school leaders and do some coaching. Right now, as you are looking at the landscape of education, specifically with the work that you're doing now, you know, we hear a lot of stories that it might make people feel hopeless about education. What's giving you hope right now? There's still so many great teachers out there, you know, and, and, and there's, there's so many great schools trying to do different things.

28:36 I think one of, you know, having the ability to be to, to really see all different parts of the country in the last few years. It's amazing to me how different schools are in different States and, and, and there's, there's, there's good and bad with everything. So that part, it gives me hope to see that those types of things that, you know, you don't need a big giant fancy new school to, to do those things. But you know, most teachers and most principals love kids and I and I and I love that about them. I think that that's it. I think, I think two things that are really good. One of the things that I hear all over country, no matter where you are, is attendance is bad. Like how do we get kids to come back to school and, and engage in school?

29:21 And so watching and, and seeing the innovation and creative ways schools and teachers are trying to do that. It's been fun to watch. But I definitely think that is a piece there. And I think it goes with everything we've been talking about, you know, the passion for kids, the love of kids, the, the, the care, the self efficacy of teachers just just making it at home, right. And so I think that's it. That's a big piece. I, I, I do worry. I think that and I, and I don't say this because of my job, but I just think in general, not every district is investing in their principles the way I wish they would. I was very, very fortunate as a principal to see receive what I consider top notch training and I didn't even realize how top notch it was until I saw what other districts and school leaders don't get.

30:11 And and so I think a district, you know, it's like the you just OK, they're certified. They were a great teacher. Now we're going to put them in this role and let them go. And it's sink or swim for a lot of them. And I think that's unfortunate. You know, some of them are just craving help. They're they're craving somebody to talk to and some ideas for, you know, and others, others don't even know what they don't know because they've never seen anything else, right. You know, you mentioned your story. I was at a small district, you know, where do I go for, for help or ideas And, and it, there's too many tools out there and the world can be a much smaller place if we allow it to be to help, to help each other and go through that. But you know, some but, but, but there's that I just, there's and there's so many great things out there that principals could do if they just could, right?

31:01 But. There are free resources. There are resources you can pay for and I joined a network called Teach Better and they have administrator masterminds where you can join. It's free, there's no cost, it's across the country. And then I was fortunate enough in my next district to have coaching with an executive coach and then I had that until I till I finished out and I still have coaching today. That is something that I will consistently invest in for myself because if you are the lead learner, if you are interested in growing and becoming the best version of yourself because none of us have arrived, not yet, then then that's an investment that's worthwhile. And you're modeling that for your people too. I think it's it's really important to have coaching, mentoring, those kinds of resources because the job's hard.

31:55 It is getting any easier? It is, and so those are things, but it it's so much fun and really there's so many good educators out there. There absolutely are. I 100% agree with you on that. Now, do you have any passion projects that you're working on right now? Just survival. Oh, man, I, I'm not, I actually there's a district in Illinois that I work with quite a bit. Malenko Valley and the deputy Superintendent and I, they're kind of working on a book project. OK. It's, it's around, as you know, in Illinois, it's around the five essentials of affected schools. They have a great story to tell. So I'm just trying to, trying to help him tell that story, you know, and, and I've been part, I've been fortunate to be part of the journey with them, with working with some of their schools. But really it started before me and it'll go on after me. I'm just a piece of it.

32:44 But so that's, that's one of the projects I'm working on right now. And then other than that, I, you know, I, I have a weekly, I, I started kind of a weekly little newsletter this year and that was fun. And that, that's actually a cute story. I, you know, I wrote, I published my juggling and job book in June. And this summer, a principal that used to work for me sent me a message and said she loved the book. And she said, I've missed reading your weekly newsletters because I used to do that, you know, and it just that that was, that was all the encouragement I need to say, you know what? I want to try that again. And so I've been doing it for, you know, a couple months now, a few weeks. And, you know, people read it and I've gotten gotten some, some good feedback. You know, it's not not widespread yet, but it's just, it's fun to do. But I think going back to the lead learner, it keeps me on base.

33:30 I've got to have something ready, right? That consistency thing every Monday, it's going to go out. So I've got to do something. And I think that that that's kind of reinvigorated me a little bit this week. You know, I'm not waiting for something to happen. I'm going to go out and do it myself. Right. And I think that, you know, that writing process for some of us, it really helps to keep us fresh and it encourages us to do the research and, you know, continue to invest in ourselves as a lead learner. My, my newsletter goes out on Mondays as well. So Monday at 10:00, every Monday at 10:00. I'm on things and and consistent with that and you, you never know who you're going to impact with newsletter your story.

34:11 And I just want to encourage everybody to Share your story because it matters important and somebody may need to hear your story so that they can take that next step towards becoming the best version of themselves. If somebody wants to get a hold of you, how would they connect with you? I'm pretty easy to find. I mean, my e-mail is justrobertthornelltx@gmail.com so that's easy enough. But I I'm pretty active on Twitter and LinkedIn. I do some on Instagram too. But those, those, either one of those, it's at Thornell 5. And then you can go from there. And if you wanted to find juggling the job, my newsletter goes out and you can find that pretty easy too.

34:53 And so I. Know that was detailed enough, but that is. Both of your books are on Amazon. Yes, they are inside the principal's office and juggling the job. Say that one more time. Inside the principal's office and juggling the job are both on Amazon, so. And I will add in show notes a link to your books. I really appreciate you coming on the show. Today, sorry it was such a hard and so hard to connect. We we persevered. We persevered and we made it work. Yep. All right. Well, thank you very much. Thanks for tuning in to Lead with Hope, where we share stories and strategies to help you rise, lead, and redefine what's possible. If today's episode inspired you, please take a moment to like, subscribe, and leave a review.

35:39 Your support helps us reach more leaders like you who are ready to lead with heart, purpose, and resilience. Don't forget to visit sparkhopeedu.com for resources, upcoming events, and tools to help you build a culture of hope in your life and leadership. We're so grateful to be part of your journey. Until next time, keep leading with hope.