Cultivating a Culture of Innovation in Schools with Tom Murray

WEBVTT

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You know, to create schools that
are future ready, We've got to create

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cultures where people actually want to be, where innovation can thrive, where people

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can fail forward, where they can
take risks, not places that are ruled

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by fear and compliance and thou shalt
not. And by the way, I'm

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not just talking about our kids.
Welcome to the Leader of Learning podcast.

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I'm your host, doctor Dan Krinis, and this is where I help educators

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grow their impact as instructional leaders because
my research and leadership experiences have led me

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to understand that someone like you,
regardless of your role or your title,

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can have a tremendous impact on your
organization. I chat with inspiring guests who

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are truly making an impact as instructional
leaders. Whether this is your first time

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listening or you come back for more, I hope you've subscribed to this show

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on your preferred podcast app so you
don't miss any of the great episodes,

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topics, or guests. Anyway,
I'm so glad you've tuned in. Now

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let's get started. Hello, Leader
of Learning, and welcome into episode one

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sixty seven of the Leader of Learning
podcast. I have a really great one

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for you, but before that,
I just wanted to mention that I've actually

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created a new tool that I think
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type of personality you have, it's
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slash quiz and take that brief ten
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All right now, onto the episode. In this episode, I have a

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very special guest, none other than
Tom Murray, who's the director of Innovation

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for Future Ready Schools and a renowned
expert in the field of education. In

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this episode, we're going to tackle
some of the more pressing issues facing educators

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today, everything from the readiness and
challenges of innovating within our classrooms and our

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school systems, to understanding the unique
learning styles and needs of our students.

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And we'll discuss the importance of really
embracing a mindset shift around change and breaking

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free from cycles of negativity. So
I can't wait for you to listen because

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I know you are going to get
so much value out of this episode.

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Coming up after these messages is my
interview with Tom Murray. Welcome back,

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Leader of Learning. I have an
exciting guest on in this episode, someone

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who I met up with in person
recently at Fetc. Really enjoyed some time

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there getting together in person, but
I've loved listening to and consuming the content

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that this guy has put out for
a long time. So I'm excited to

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welcome on Tom Murray. If you
don't know Tom, he currently serves as

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the director of Innovation for Future Ready
Schools. Prior to that, and prior

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to moving into this role in Washington, he was an elementary teacher, middle

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school teacher, middle school principal,
elementary principal, district level administrator. He's

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done a lot, including writing some
books. He's created a lot of content,

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best selling book with co author Eric
Scheneger, Learning Transformed, and his

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most recent book, Personal and Authentic
Designing Learning Experiences that Impact a Lifetime that

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was released in twenty nineteen. So
first off, Tom, thanks so much

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for joining us, and if you
could elaborate a little bit more on who

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you are, where you are and
what you do awesome. Well, thank

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you so much, Dan, what
an honored is to join the podcast.

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Thanks for that quick overview. I
like to say, with all those different

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positions, like I obviously couldn't keep
a job, so now I work out

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of Washington, d C. Right, Like makes total sense though. You

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know, I was in a school
just today and I spend a good amount

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of time in an early elementary pre
cater to different classrooms, and just man,

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I the work that I'm doing now
is incredible, and I get to

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work with amazing people across the country. But I share that because there's nothing

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like just this morning, being being
with the little ones, having them come

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up, giving a big hug,
and I'll tell you I missed that.

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And so you know, after spending
time as a teacher, as an administrator,

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having the privilege to now work nationally. No matter where I go,

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Dan, there's amazing people working incredibly
hard for kids. Some days I get

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to work with teachers, maybe it's
a convocation, maybe it's a professional learning

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day. Some days I'm working with
principles, superintendents getting to coach them a

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little bit on that end, and
you know, just it's an honor to

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work with educators. They are some
of the most giving, hard working,

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dynamic people on the planet. But
let's be real, there's a lot of

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challenges out there, and so how
do we continue to see challenges as opper

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coortunities and so get to run future
ready schools? As you mentioned, I

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encourage you to check out futureready dot
org, but I'll sell anything. Bipartisan

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nonprofit out of Washington, DC.
We raise money to do the work that

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we do each and every day for
school and district leaders and so it's an

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honor to connect with folks with that
and as you mentioned, I get to

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write and speak and do that kind
of stuff. And again, no matter

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where I go, there's great people. So thanks for having me on the

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podcast and excited to dive in absolutely
And I think it would only be apropos

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if if I got started by asking
you about future readiness. Right, So,

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future Ready Schools do a lot of
work to get teachers, educators,

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administrators, students of course, to
be future ready. I'm going to hit

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you with a little bit of a
chicken in the egg or the egg kind

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of a question, right, chicken
or the egg? Which came first?

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Are we do we need to put
in? I know it's all important,

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all right, but what's the top
priority? Is it getting teachers future ready?

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Is it really understanding and getting students
to get those skills that you know,

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you hear everybody talk about they're going
to get jobs that don't even exist

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yet, Like what comes first?
Yeah, So it's a good question,

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you know. I think when we
talk future ready, we talk there's so

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many different facets of it. But
first would also be mindset. Are we

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creating experiences for kids that are remotely
relevant for today's learners? Right? I

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think we can all agree anybody that's
ever spent more than a day in a

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classroom can hear kids asking like,
why are we learning this? Why are

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we learning this? And to me, that's a sign of one of two

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things. Number one, maybe it's
just a really good question, and maybe

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we need to evaluate some of the
things that we've traditionally done. But number

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two, there's no connection to the
why. And so taking a look when

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we look at future ready, it's
really a mindset first and foremost around creating

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experiences that are going to be relevant
for today's kids. You're right, it's

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a chicken or egg question, like
which one can we do first? And

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let's be real, like we recognize
there's no true arrival point of like,

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hey, we're here, we did
it. We're not, Like, that's

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not feasible, and so it's a
continuous work of progress of how do we

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build on the great things that districts
have been doing for decades, right,

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and how do we continue to prepare
students for that world that is constantly evolving,

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that is constantly changing. So part
of it and looking at, you

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know, the curricular side. We
are not here to be at a national

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level telling people like, here's what
you need to teach. Nobody would have

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that and totally understand why, right, That's not our role. But our

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role is to help school and district
leaders make sure that they're making decisions,

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to make sure that the learning is
relevant for kids, that the opportunity and

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access are there for all groups of
kids, especially traditionally marginalized groups of students,

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and making sure that the workforce ready
piece that you referenced as an area

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that we focused on as well.
We see a lot of things across the

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country with pathways and redesign for skills. I think, you know, for

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a good period of time in our
country, I think we put kids in

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this four year college box and if
they didn't fit inside that box, it

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was like we failed or something wasn't
right with them, and man, what

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a travesty that is and recognizing that
and looking back at that. So,

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how do we create experience for kids
that leverage their interests, their passions,

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their strengths to give them the skills
to ultimately be what they want to be

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in life, to be whatever version
of success they want to be. And

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maybe it's entering that workforce, entering
the military, maybe it is going to

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a four year college, and how
can we best support them with that?

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So, you know, our work
at future Ready is supporting school and district

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leaders to help build capacity to make
that. I really believe that every educator

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does their best and the best that
they know how, but we try to

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build some capacity for leadership to create
the cultures where people want to be,

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you know, to create schools that
are future ready. We've got to create

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cultures where people actually want to be
schools and where innovation can thrive, where

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people can fail forward, where they
can take risks, not places that are

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ruled by fear and compliance and thou
shalt not. And by the way,

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I'm not just talking about our kids. I'm also talking about putting our staff

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in these boxes that they have to
be contained over yere and they're fearful to

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do anything different. And well,
how can we ask our staff to take

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risks when we're promoting it with our
kids, but then not allowing our staff

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to do so? And so a
lot of those pieces around mindsets, around

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experiences, and around environments ultimately create
the what we would call future ready.

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We have an entire framework for it
and lots of different ways that we could

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talk through it and talk about it. But how do we create relevant learning

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experiences for kids? How do we
provide the access and the opportunity that's needed.

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How do we build the leadership capacity
and the cultures where people want to

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be so all of it can thrive. I'm going to take that and run

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with it. I have to piggyback
off what you just finished with. So

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you talk about a culture of innovation
and the opposite, let's say, of

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a culture of fear and intimidation and
worry that a teacher might feel like they

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can't take risks, try new things, they can't innovate, And it's a

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really timely conversation and a really timely
question. I'll tell you why quick aside.

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Literally just today I was I have
the fortune as a digital learning coach,

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but but a former literacy coach to
actually kind of tag team with the

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literacy coach in my school to meet
with teachers sometimes. And I was in

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a meeting today with a grade level
of ELA teachers and this exact concept and

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aspect of the school culture came up. And the way that it came up

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was that a teacher said, I'm
paraphrasing, but the teacher was like,

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I really want new ways to get
students to show what they're learning. I

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don't just want them to write an
essay. And of course I felt like,

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you know, that's well, that's
where I come in as the digital

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learning coach, Like I got all
these tricks and things up my sleeve that

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I can show you, and I'm
a former ELA teacher, former literacy coach,

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like this is right up my alley. But still the I don't want

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to say the argument, but the
hesitation was, but what if I get

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observed doing something that's not really in
the curriculum. And so it really was

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that that aspect of the intimidation and
the fear, like you said, it

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was there, and I was happy
that this teacher wants to, you know,

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think outside the box, wants to
do some things differently. But I

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also felt like, man, we're
still at a stage where teachers are so

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worried about where they have to be
in the curriculum and doing the exact culminating

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task that it says that they have
to do, and not being able to

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get themselves or their students outside the
box. Yeah. So there's so much

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unpack with what you just said,
and a lot I can connect to Number

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one. I think you see just
in that story the impact of leadership,

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right. I referenced earlier being in
a building this morning that I was reflected

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on and hanging with some of these
young elementary students, and conversations that I

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had with teachers that were almost the
opposite in that one of the things we

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really appreciate our principle is he lets
us run, he lets us try new

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things. He encourage us to think
outside of the box. And so just

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those two contrasting pieces, First of
all, I think you could find in

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any district or any place. You
know, it's not anything unique about two

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different schools there. I think you'd
hear that story over and over and over.

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But what we're pointing at is the
importance of leadership, the ability for

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leadership to say I'm going to model
for you what innovation can look like.

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I'm going to model for you failing
forward. I'm going to own things when

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I screw it up as your principle, and I'm going to find a way

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to pick up those pieces and move
forward to model to you. Hey,

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when I mess this up, here's
how you pick up the pieces and move

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forward. And it's okay. As
good as you are, you're human and

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you're going to make mistakes. I
think you're pointing to a lot of times

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where it is this fear. And
let's also be very real, there's very

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toxic leadership out there. I'll be
the first to see it and admit it.

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And I don't believe any principle gets
up in a given day and says

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like I want to be the dinner
table conversation tonight in a negative way.

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I think it's rooted in people believing
they're doing the right thing you know,

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even in toxic environments. And I'm
not saying what you were referring to is

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totally toxic, but I'm thinking of
the extremes out there for folks that are

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listening that may be feeling like,
yeah, that is a principle where if

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I step one word out of that
guide in that given day, I'm going

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to get my hand slapped. And
I know people that really feel like that.

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And so I think recognizing, you
know, from a leadership end,

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I really think those pieces come from
those principles, feeling like to do the

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best we can for kids, it
has to be exactly here, and I'm

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doing my best to help you stay
in there. I think it comes out

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of a good place ninety nine out
of one hundred times, I really do.

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However, the problem becomes when that's
my mindset. As a principle,

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I'm doing the opposite of what I'm
asking them to do with kids. If

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I'm going to ask kids to take
risks, I've got to create environments where

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my teachers can take risks. If
I'm want to recognize that failure is a

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part of learning, I've got to
recognize that when I'm asking my teachers encouraging

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them to try new things. It's
not going to always work. They're going

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to fall in their face at times. And you know what, that's okay.

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I'm not talking about not planning or
you know, being not prepared.

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I don't mean that at all.
That's a different issue. But if we're

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asking people to try a new assessment, try a new instructional strategy, and

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it doesn't go okay, and then
I'm the first person barking down their neck

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being like you wasted seven minutes of
instructional time, that person will never take

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a risk again, right, you
know? I think back to one of

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my early principles when I was an
elementary teacher give a shout out to a

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guy named Bill Gretzula. Was when
I was an early teacher, I had

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no idea what I was doing.
I was trying to figure it out.

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He was somebody that created a culture
where we really wanted to be. He

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had really high expectations and high standards. It wasn't just a free for all,

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do whatever you want. But at
the same time he would definitely really

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push instructionally. And I can think
about some supervision conversations that I had where

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the lesson was like so so probably
not great. And you know he didn't

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just sugarcoat everything like everything's wonderful.
You don't have to ever change anything because

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then he's not helpful as an instructional
leader, right, And you get that

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in your role as a coach.
But the flip side is every signal time

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I walked out with my dignity,
every single time I walked out feeling like,

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you know what, maybe I will
try that. I see why I

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could do that differently. To me, that comes down to the culture piece,

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the relationship piece, and the trust. Like as admin with teachers,

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if I've got that trust, if
my teachers know I've got their back and

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we've built that trust, I'm going
to be much more willing to try something,

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to step out, try a different
way of working with kids. But

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if I don't, or if it's
this constant game of gotcha and not I

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gotcha, right, then people won't
do that. To me, I don't

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know why. That's not rocket science, right, Like what we're asking our

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teachers to do with kids, we
need to be doing with our staff.

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Honestly, anything else is hypocritical And
I don't know how to say that.

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It's kind of like that and I
say this as a former principle as somebody

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that works with principle, and principles
are some of the best people on the

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planet on the whole, for sure. But it's kind of like the principle

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that tells teachers, you know,
I expect you to get back to back

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to parents within twenty four hours,
but when you email me, I get

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like a six week grace period,
right, And so I think my question

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for ADMIN is going along this point
is how do we model the type of

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experiences we want our kids to have
with our teachers. If we want our

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teachers to communicate clearly, we need
to communicate clearly. If we want our

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parents to be in constant understanding of
understanding with all the different things that are

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going on, well we as principles
better be doing a darn good job for

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that for our staff as well.
And so lots of facets to what you

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said. But I think underlying our
culture, relationships and trust, and you

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know, I think those kinds of
things take a while to build. You

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know, if I'm a new principle
in a building, recognize you're coming at

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it with people with decades of experience
that maybe a time or two felt burned.

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Maybe their time or two felt like, hey, they were tried something,

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they were vulnerable, and then they
got chastised the next day in a

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postop. Well like that can sit
with people for decades unless the trust is

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there, And so we've got to
do it repetitively to show them that we

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can build that trust, because trust
is such a delicate thing, isn't it.

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I Mean, that's something that can
take a really long time to build,

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and it can be shattered overnight in
an email. And so I think

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creating those environments and all of that
relates to when we talk about creating inclusive

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cultures with future ready schools. The
relationship and the trust or the foundation of

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that, just like it's the foundation
of the classroom, just like it's the

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foundation of a faculty meeting, just
like it's also the fact of the foundation

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of a faculty room conversation with no
administrators in it. This podcast is a

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proud member of the Teach Better Podcast
Network, Better Today, Better Tomorrow,

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00:17:45.480 --> 00:17:51.640
and the Podcast to Get You there. Explore more podcasts at www dot Teach

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Better podcastnetwork dot com. Now let's
get back to the episode. I love

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so much of what you said,
and I'm really glad that you pulled in

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that that leadership piece talking about how
school leaders administrators really need to model their

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expectations of their staff, but you
know, and through their own actions.

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Really really shameless plug here, and
I almost apologize to do it. But

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for my listeners, if you don't
know already, I have a free online

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course. It's it's I market it
as what's it called Unlock your Leadership Potential.

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But that whole course came out of
the idea of building trust and building

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this culture in your school where and
I go through like do's and don'ts right,

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do this if you want to build
trust and have a really great culture

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of innovation, and don't do this
if you want to basically u break the

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trust of everyone near you building.
So shameless plug. If you want to

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take that course, it's so much
of what we're talking about out right now,

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But it's at Dan Krenz dot com
slash free course. Enough of that,

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let's move forward. I wanted to
ask you as you were talking.

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I think it's only natural for educators
to I guess naysay a little bit.

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Maybe when we're so optimistic right about, hey, we need to innovate,

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we have to build this culture where
we are free to take risks and all

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this stuff, Like it sounds great
at the end of the day, as

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you alluded to before, there's still
a lot of challenges out there, and

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I don't want to sway you in
any one direction. I really just want

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to get your honest opinion about this. Are we in early twenty twenty four,

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Like, are we in a system
in education where we can say we're

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ready to really move forward? Like
are we being supported enough yet to really

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be able to do this stuff?
I don't want to I don't want to

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sway your answer, like I said, but I just I think of all

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the we've already talked a little bit
about curriculum that that kind of you know,

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traps people in makes them feel like
they don't have a lot of room

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to interpret and to and to innovate. Testing is still there, all these

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you know, accountability measures. So
I'm just wondering how you feel about that.

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Yeah, So my shirt answer is
absolutely yes, because I see it

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all the time. I think one
of the best things we can do,

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is educators is go out and see
things that are way outside of our comfort

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zones and our bubbles. You know, I spent a number of years my

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whole career in one school district throughout
in Pennsylvania, Great District. We were

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recognized all over the place for innovative
stuff. And then when I left and

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started looking at things nationally, I
can't tell you the amount of times I

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was like, holy crap, we
weren't remotely doing that. Wow, Like

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look at that over there. And
so on one hand, I personally get

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to see a lot. I'm in
probably eighty places a given year, so

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I get to see a lot of
different things, and there's awesomeness and excellence

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all over the place. In fact, most things that districts struggle with,

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I guarantee you there's a district within
three or four hours that's crushing it somewhere

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by the way, with higher levels
of need and less of a budget,

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because I see those arguments in those
things all over the place. So to

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answer your question, absolutely, because
I see it. However, let me

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put the caveat not necessarily at scale, and what I mean by that is

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there's a ridiculous amount of roadblocks in
public education that we put in everything from

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budgets, which are very very real
issues, to things that get in the

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way like politics, Right, Like
the average tenure of a superintendent before COVID

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was three and a half years.
Post COVID, I just heard yesterday is

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two point nine years, which means
our captain of the ship changes every three

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years. Do we understand the cultural
implications for that? Do we understand that

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we put teachers in positions that it's
often like start stop start stop, start

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stop, Yes, nope, we're
not doing that anymore. Nope, do

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this over here and not try this
off. We're now do this, And

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then we wonder at times why they
become skeptical, right, and so on.

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Sometimes I think some of the skepticism, to use your word that's there,

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I get it is justified. Like
the human mind can only take somebody

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like yes, do don't do it
this way? Dope, do it this

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way, Dope, do it this, Nope, can't do it that.

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Now we're gonna use this, and
like people start to naturally shut down because

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your brain is wired for safety,
and so to get at the root of

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your question as also, you also
have to look at the way your brain

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is wired. Your brain wired for
safety means your brain is wired for comfort,

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which means you're going to do things
that are comfortable for you. Stepping

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out of your comfort zone, trying
brand new things is actually not inherently a

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normal thing, and your brain doesn't
really want to do it. It's an

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interesting thing. You look at the
learning sciences, it's fascinating on that.

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So I think when we look at
the safety component of the brain, knowing

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that like we're not necessarily wired to
just try all this brand new stuff and

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do all those things, I think
it's just as a component to recognizing like

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growth and stuff like that takes time. So on one hand, we see

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it all over the place, and
I would challenge listeners to like get out

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of your districts, get out of
your schools, go find things across the

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country that are happening or you know. I think that's an advantage to social

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media and those things. You get
to see these great things. A future

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ready part of our role is to
spotlight great things like this Digital Learning Day,

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like on February fifteenth that we just
had, like taking a look like

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spotlighting different things across the country.
Those are examples that I think can help

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push our own mindset with that.
The other piece that I would say to

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mindset and the way the brain is
is your brain sticks, and I need

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to look up the exact statistics here, but there's connections and studies that show

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like how many positives you need compared
to a negative, right, And it's

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why like negativity drive sales, It's
why negativity you'll see far more on the

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front of a newspaper because people will
pick it up than just the positive.

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But I think that also connects with
mindset, and I think that also connects

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with systems change, where it's a
lot easier to get a cycle of negativity

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in a school than get the cycle
of positivity. It's a lot harder to

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break that cycle of negativity than it
is to break things that seemed to be

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going pretty well. And so to
answer your question, I would say,

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I know it's very possible because I
see it every day and just working ghost

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to ghosts, But to scale it
is really a challenge because there are many

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things stacked against us. The amount
of the amount of assessments and those pieces

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and things take very very real amounts
of time. And also just again going

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back to some of just the real
constraints that we've had obviously throughout COVID,

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and just some of those pieces are
just vast realities and I think it's naive

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to neglect those, but I also
think we need those can do mindsets like

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we will figure this out mindset,
because I think that's what our kids deserve.

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But I will also say the vast
amount of educators that I know and

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work with, that is their mindset, and so I know they're working with

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the best that they have. I'd
love to kind of give my own answer

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here. I don't let me.
Let's turn the table. I appreciate that,

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and watch what I do here.
All you podcasters or want to be

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podcasters, watch how I segue this
into my next question. I love everything

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you said. I don't want to
take away from your answer at all.

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But the one thing that I think
when it comes to like are we there

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yet? Can we do this?
I always go back to yes and and

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singularly my reason is because our students
are ready. And again, I'll give

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you a really quick story. I
I'm I actually facilitate a student tech team

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at my school. And again timely
conversation that we're having. Just today I

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met with the tech team, and
my tech team president eighth grader at my

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school said to me, doctor Crinis, I visited another school recently I think

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it was a private school, maybe
somewhere where he's considering going and are applying

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to for high school. And he
said, I noticed that a difference between

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our school and their school is that
their school seems to and I'm paraphrasing again,

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turn a lot more time over to
students to do the work. And

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it was a pretty cool teaching teachable
moment for me to kind of bring him

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into the mind space of an educator. I was using terms like stage on

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the stage and guide on the side, and I was telling them about how

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we want our teachers to be facilitators. But for an eighth grader to really

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put that into perspective and put that
into his own words, I was really

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proud of him. But again,
like it was just an example of what

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I say all the time is that
our students are ready. And so for

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me when it comes to can we
do the work, like you said,

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people are doing it right. And
maybe it's not whole scale change yet in

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terms of some of the things that
we want to see, but change is

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happening, and I love how you
put that positive spin on it. So

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here's my segue, all right,
So can I jump back in there and

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say go ahead. I love to
respond to your thoughts. I actually the

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moment you started talking about kids,
my first thought was I just went on

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for five minutes about all the things, and all I talked about was adults.

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And so kudos to you because I
actually defer to your answer because I

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couldn't agree more. Where when we
look at so many times, and I'm

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talking about myself here, I'm not
throwing any other educator out of the bus,

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how many times is it me that
was holding back kids? How many

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times was it me thinking like,
well, they're only nine or ten,

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they'll probably only be able to And
how many times did I put the lid

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on what my kids were capable of
because of my limited mindset? And so

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yeah, when you step back and
you look what kids are doing, I

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mean, and I'm not just talking
about the random board presentation that comes up

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for a particular program or whatnot,
but man, our kids today are absolutely

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00:27:56.920 --> 00:28:00.200
amazing, and I think giving them
the opportunities to run to try things,

409
00:28:00.240 --> 00:28:03.599
to tap into their interests and their
passions and the strengths, like they're going

410
00:28:03.640 --> 00:28:07.319
to find a way to be successful
and do things differently because they already are

411
00:28:07.839 --> 00:28:11.559
and so so kudos to your answer
there. So what was your next one?

412
00:28:11.599 --> 00:28:14.319
What do you got? Yeah?
Thanks, No, So that that's

413
00:28:14.319 --> 00:28:18.920
where I wanted to use that as
a as a launching point too. So,

414
00:28:18.200 --> 00:28:22.519
you know, we talk about students, we talk about that they're ready.

415
00:28:22.559 --> 00:28:26.519
A lot of them are hungry for
change, for learning in ways that

416
00:28:26.559 --> 00:28:29.400
they want to learn, learning about
things that they want to learn. And

417
00:28:29.440 --> 00:28:33.960
I know that that's a lot of
what you have written about and preach about

418
00:28:34.000 --> 00:28:37.519
and talk about when you're out there
on the speaking circuit. So you know,

419
00:28:37.519 --> 00:28:41.720
when we talk about personal and authentic
learning experiences for students, take us

420
00:28:41.759 --> 00:28:45.839
down that path a little bit too, because again, I think it was

421
00:28:45.240 --> 00:28:49.160
natural how we got into that,
right, talking about our students are ready,

422
00:28:49.319 --> 00:28:52.480
we want I just had that meeting
today where a teacher was like,

423
00:28:52.559 --> 00:28:57.680
I want to create new activities,
new tasks for students that are not just

424
00:28:57.720 --> 00:29:02.720
writing an essay on paper, right, And I think although he didn't say

425
00:29:02.759 --> 00:29:06.880
it, I'd like to think that
the rationale was I know that it's going

426
00:29:06.960 --> 00:29:11.680
to be more engaging and authentic from
high students, you know, So let

427
00:29:11.680 --> 00:29:15.480
me bring in on that one too. Yeah, So you know, I

428
00:29:15.519 --> 00:29:19.279
think my first lens comes as a
dad. Here. So my daughter's in

429
00:29:19.319 --> 00:29:23.200
eighth grade. She's your compliant kid. She plays school well. She can

430
00:29:23.240 --> 00:29:26.480
sit in a traditional classroom, She'll
be quiet, she'll raise her hand,

431
00:29:26.680 --> 00:29:30.599
she'll do her homework every night,
she gets a's every time. That's just

432
00:29:30.640 --> 00:29:34.359
who she is. She's a really
smart kid. She struggles to think outside

433
00:29:34.400 --> 00:29:38.559
the box. She struggles to do
things differently if she wasn't told to do

434
00:29:38.599 --> 00:29:42.559
it that. Let me introduce you
to my son. He's the opposite of

435
00:29:42.599 --> 00:29:47.119
everything that I just said. He's
the one that struggles to sit sill more

436
00:29:47.160 --> 00:29:48.960
than five minutes. He's the one
that's like, what day of the week

437
00:29:49.200 --> 00:29:52.079
even ask him about homework? Homework? We don't have Do we have homework?

438
00:29:52.240 --> 00:29:56.599
I don't even know. He is
one of the most creative thinkers that

439
00:29:56.640 --> 00:30:00.759
I've ever seen. He's the one
that will take anything in the house,

440
00:30:00.839 --> 00:30:03.039
take anything there, and say like, can I do this differently? Can

441
00:30:03.079 --> 00:30:07.240
I find a better way to do
it? If I were to look at

442
00:30:07.680 --> 00:30:10.920
who would I deem successful twenty five
years and of course that term is going

443
00:30:10.960 --> 00:30:14.160
to be very, very careful.
She will absolutely find a job I know

444
00:30:14.200 --> 00:30:17.559
it where she'll be passionate about.
But like a job that's very orderly in

445
00:30:17.599 --> 00:30:21.680
finding the rules. My son will
probably start three companies. He'll probably fail

446
00:30:21.720 --> 00:30:26.160
miserably in the first two and then
crush it in the third and probably employ

447
00:30:26.160 --> 00:30:29.079
one hundred people. So when I
look at these two, and again not

448
00:30:29.119 --> 00:30:32.079
to say one's more successful, because
I'm not defining it just by money on

449
00:30:32.119 --> 00:30:37.359
that end, but they are totally
different kids. Yet they have the exact

450
00:30:37.359 --> 00:30:41.079
same upbringing, the exact same resources, the exact same parenting structure, the

451
00:30:41.119 --> 00:30:47.960
exact same grandparents, all of it. And they are completely different children,

452
00:30:48.400 --> 00:30:52.880
completely different learners. And so if
they're coming from the same DNA and they're

453
00:30:52.920 --> 00:30:57.079
that different, how much more different
are twenty five kids that come from different

454
00:30:57.079 --> 00:31:02.000
households, different parents, structures in
a sitting in a classroom. And so

455
00:31:02.119 --> 00:31:03.680
when I talk personal and authentic,
and part of my goal in writing that

456
00:31:03.799 --> 00:31:07.720
is recognize, if my two children
are that different, how much more different?

457
00:31:08.039 --> 00:31:12.599
But with that difference in diversity and
diversity and differences, how many more

458
00:31:12.640 --> 00:31:15.480
strengths do we have when we look
at a community of learners, we look

459
00:31:15.519 --> 00:31:18.400
at all that different opportunity. And
so I think, you know, when

460
00:31:18.400 --> 00:31:22.119
I look at I created the personal
and authentic framework to help people, and

461
00:31:22.200 --> 00:31:26.720
what are the different ways that we
can explore some of this, exploring interests

462
00:31:26.759 --> 00:31:30.519
and passions and strengths, looking at
some of the moments of AWE the social

463
00:31:30.519 --> 00:31:34.000
emotional side of things, right,
recognizing that it goes beyond math, reading

464
00:31:34.039 --> 00:31:38.160
and writing that, yeah, we
can graduate a student with this perfect GPA

465
00:31:38.319 --> 00:31:41.880
get into all the Ivy League schools, But can we be real, like

466
00:31:42.279 --> 00:31:47.200
if they hate life and are really
really struggling here and don't have any friends

467
00:31:47.240 --> 00:31:49.440
and are really struggling all across here, Like, are we totally successful and

468
00:31:49.480 --> 00:31:55.799
celebrating that to recognize that, Like, kids are far more complex than any

469
00:31:55.839 --> 00:31:57.480
sort of test scores in that regard. And so when I talk personal and

470
00:31:57.519 --> 00:32:00.599
authentic, how do we see that
child for who they are? How do

471
00:32:00.640 --> 00:32:05.759
we recognize that child for being beautifully
unique? How do we get to know,

472
00:32:05.799 --> 00:32:08.079
as I call in personal and authentic, the hidden stories within, to

473
00:32:08.160 --> 00:32:13.519
recognize every child that walks into our
classroom each day has stories on their hearts

474
00:32:13.559 --> 00:32:15.279
that we're not going to ever know. And some of them are really really

475
00:32:15.279 --> 00:32:19.279
great things, and some of them
can be struggles. And so I think

476
00:32:19.319 --> 00:32:22.559
that goes back to earlier conversation on
creating environments where people want to be relationships

477
00:32:22.799 --> 00:32:25.799
and trust and all those pieces.
But how do we make sure that we

478
00:32:25.839 --> 00:32:30.960
see that every learner in our classroom
is beautifully unique and finding ways to tap

479
00:32:31.000 --> 00:32:35.960
into those interests and passions and strengths. Now, I'm not one that's so

480
00:32:36.160 --> 00:32:38.640
far out there saying, you know, kids should learn whatever they want at

481
00:32:38.640 --> 00:32:42.799
any point in time and be able
to do whatever they want all day long.

482
00:32:43.319 --> 00:32:46.000
I recognize that's just not a scalable
structure. And let's be real,

483
00:32:46.079 --> 00:32:51.640
if I could do whatever I wanted
to do all day long, I would

484
00:32:51.640 --> 00:32:53.599
probably naturally go to things that I
like, that I enjoy, that i'm

485
00:32:53.680 --> 00:32:58.799
strong at strong with, But there
probably be a lot of things left that

486
00:32:58.880 --> 00:33:01.720
i'd leave out that I really do
need in life. And so we do

487
00:33:01.799 --> 00:33:07.240
need structures, We do need systems
the only way to scale it, but

488
00:33:07.319 --> 00:33:10.599
we also want to in that offer
them opportunity, offer them voice. You

489
00:33:10.640 --> 00:33:15.519
were talking about tools and different assessments
and things like that earlier, and sometimes

490
00:33:15.519 --> 00:33:17.000
it's saying like, here's the standard, here's the way you've got to show

491
00:33:17.000 --> 00:33:21.480
me that you learn this that I'll
understand it. But here's five different ways

492
00:33:21.480 --> 00:33:23.519
that I'm okay with you showing that
you want to write a play about it.

493
00:33:23.559 --> 00:33:25.400
Write a play about it, you
want to write an essay about it,

494
00:33:25.440 --> 00:33:28.519
Let's write an essay about it.
You want to do a speech to

495
00:33:28.519 --> 00:33:30.640
the class on it, Let's do
that. And so sometimes as teachers we

496
00:33:30.720 --> 00:33:32.960
look at it like, well,
how in the world could I ever do

497
00:33:34.119 --> 00:33:37.400
this? And yeah, if you
were trying to let every kid do whatever

498
00:33:37.440 --> 00:33:40.000
they want every day and every way, you couldn't. There's only twenty four

499
00:33:40.000 --> 00:33:45.400
hours in the day. But sometimes
just giving them the voice to create choice,

500
00:33:45.799 --> 00:33:47.519
to say here's the way that I
would love to do that, you

501
00:33:47.720 --> 00:33:52.759
can get kids so much more invested
as opposed to here's my only one size

502
00:33:52.799 --> 00:33:57.480
fits all. The other piece to
that is recognizing, like we're all going

503
00:33:57.559 --> 00:34:01.519
to enter a workforce that's going to
have some parameters, some guidelines. Even

504
00:34:01.559 --> 00:34:05.319
if it's hey, I'm creating my
own business, I can do it how

505
00:34:05.400 --> 00:34:07.400
I want. I mean, that's
all well and good, which is true,

506
00:34:07.559 --> 00:34:09.880
but you also have to work with
a public that have some social norms

507
00:34:10.320 --> 00:34:15.239
about interacting with people the way I'm
going to communicate, being responsive in all

508
00:34:15.280 --> 00:34:17.119
of that. And so I think, how do we create environments going back

509
00:34:17.159 --> 00:34:21.519
to what are we saying earlier with
the future ready side, that are relevant,

510
00:34:21.719 --> 00:34:24.400
that are also accessible. And I
think the equity side of this conversation

511
00:34:24.519 --> 00:34:29.440
is really really important. We're not
just talking about our white suburban kids walking

512
00:34:29.480 --> 00:34:32.599
into computer science and classrooms that a
lot of the kids happen to look like

513
00:34:32.719 --> 00:34:37.400
us. We're crawking about how do
we create experiences that for each child and

514
00:34:37.400 --> 00:34:40.599
that and I think that's where we
talk about the scale being really really important.

515
00:34:40.800 --> 00:34:45.960
That's where we talk about the experience
itself not being something that's just done

516
00:34:45.039 --> 00:34:47.880
too, but something that they're a
vital part of. And I think going

517
00:34:47.920 --> 00:34:51.960
back to the voice, I think
there's a lot of opportunity to give kids

518
00:34:52.079 --> 00:34:54.440
voice in the mix. To go
back to our previous conversation. If we're

519
00:34:54.440 --> 00:34:58.519
going to talk about giving kids and
I shouldn't even I don't even like the

520
00:34:58.599 --> 00:35:01.360
term giving them voice because they have
it. Sometimes we just shut it down.

521
00:35:01.480 --> 00:35:04.639
I guess it's a better way to
say it, right, like when

522
00:35:04.639 --> 00:35:07.320
we say, like, you know, empower them with voice, like they've

523
00:35:07.360 --> 00:35:08.920
got it. Sometimes we just don't
listen or we don't care. And so

524
00:35:09.280 --> 00:35:12.599
I think bringing that out. But
if we're going to ask our teachers to

525
00:35:12.599 --> 00:35:15.400
do that, we need to do
the same for them in professional learning.

526
00:35:15.480 --> 00:35:19.880
So where do you start with that? Ask kids and then don't be upset

527
00:35:19.920 --> 00:35:22.000
with their feedback their thoughts. Now, granted, take it with the grain

528
00:35:22.039 --> 00:35:27.320
of salt of sometimes they're sixteen or
seventeen, and seventeen year olds can be

529
00:35:27.360 --> 00:35:30.880
pretty interesting creatures. They're probably not
going to hold back, but their voice

530
00:35:30.960 --> 00:35:35.840
matters, right, and so ask
them what they want. Ask them what's

531
00:35:35.920 --> 00:35:37.960
missing as they finish up a grade
level? Ask them what were the best

532
00:35:37.960 --> 00:35:43.119
parts of learning? What did you
wish we did this year? What wasn't

533
00:35:43.159 --> 00:35:45.760
any fun this year? What would
you do differently if you became the teacher

534
00:35:45.800 --> 00:35:47.199
tomorrow? And I think, and
I said, you know, at the

535
00:35:47.280 --> 00:35:50.960
end of the year, because as
we think about approaching that, but you

536
00:35:51.000 --> 00:35:53.519
know, I think I wouldn't just
ask that at that point in the year.

537
00:35:53.519 --> 00:35:57.159
I think asking kids all the time, how do we design that differently?

538
00:35:57.199 --> 00:35:59.760
What would that look? And just
get some feedback to show them that

539
00:35:59.760 --> 00:36:02.280
they're voice matters and that you really
do care. So it's not just something

540
00:36:02.320 --> 00:36:07.760
done to them, but something they're
part of. I want to kind of

541
00:36:07.760 --> 00:36:14.239
offer I'm just taking all sorts of
liberties on my own show tonight, I

542
00:36:14.280 --> 00:36:17.400
answered my own question before. I
want to kind of offer a parting thought,

543
00:36:17.480 --> 00:36:21.760
final thought if I might, and
it's based on a lot of what

544
00:36:21.800 --> 00:36:27.360
you just said. You use the
word several times strengths. You talked about

545
00:36:27.519 --> 00:36:31.440
interests and passions, but you use
the word strength several times. And one

546
00:36:31.480 --> 00:36:38.039
of the big takeaways that I think
I have from this conversation is when we

547
00:36:38.079 --> 00:36:42.960
talk about future readiness, when we
talk about innovation in schools, when we

548
00:36:43.039 --> 00:36:47.880
talk about giving students voice, as
you were just saying, I think what

549
00:36:47.960 --> 00:36:52.280
I would love to see down the
road right as we get future ready is

550
00:36:52.440 --> 00:37:00.119
more of a strength based approach,
so that we are valuing and empowering the

551
00:37:00.840 --> 00:37:04.559
part of a student where they are
really thriving. And I know you said,

552
00:37:05.320 --> 00:37:08.000
like you use your own experience where
it's like, yeah, if you

553
00:37:08.039 --> 00:37:12.519
gave me time, I would want
to explore what I'm really interested in,

554
00:37:13.519 --> 00:37:15.199
and I know it still needs to
learn other things, and obviously that's what

555
00:37:15.280 --> 00:37:21.519
school is going to do for students
too, but we got to stop just

556
00:37:22.280 --> 00:37:27.480
working so much on bringing up what
students are not doing well in and really

557
00:37:28.480 --> 00:37:34.000
find what they're thriving in and emphasize
that and provide more opportunities for that too.

558
00:37:34.079 --> 00:37:36.800
So thank you for allowing me to
get up on my high horse again.

559
00:37:37.159 --> 00:37:38.920
It's just I got to think in
as you were talking, and I

560
00:37:39.000 --> 00:37:42.280
just felt like I needed to add
that. Yeah, no, Dan,

561
00:37:42.360 --> 00:37:45.719
I love that. And actually this
morning was having a conversation on exactly that

562
00:37:45.800 --> 00:37:51.039
topic of how easy it is to
look at kids through a deficit mindset.

563
00:37:51.280 --> 00:37:53.519
We're sitting in the data team meeting
and listen, there's a great purpose for

564
00:37:53.599 --> 00:37:57.760
those but we've got to be really
careful. It doesn't become here's the forty

565
00:37:57.760 --> 00:38:00.519
seven things Johnny's missing, and we
ever talk about what he's good at.

566
00:38:02.280 --> 00:38:06.119
If all we're looking for is deficits, we're gonna find them all over the

567
00:38:06.159 --> 00:38:08.800
place. If we're primarily looking for
strengths, we're gonna see them all over

568
00:38:08.800 --> 00:38:13.320
the place. And so I use
the word strengths purposefully in the personal and

569
00:38:13.320 --> 00:38:19.079
authentic framework to recognize even our neediest
students have incredible strengths. And at times

570
00:38:19.079 --> 00:38:22.840
if all we do is focus on
that negative, if I'm working with a

571
00:38:22.840 --> 00:38:25.280
teacher and all I'm focusing is on
what they're lacking, they're gonna burn out

572
00:38:25.320 --> 00:38:30.519
real quick. And guess what kids
are too, And so seeing the greatness

573
00:38:30.559 --> 00:38:34.320
choosing our lens and seeing that the
strengths that they do have are such a

574
00:38:34.440 --> 00:38:40.519
vital aspect to creating those personal and
authentic experiences for kids. I don't even

575
00:38:40.599 --> 00:38:44.679
have anything else to say or ask
at this point. Out it was this

576
00:38:44.760 --> 00:38:46.800
was a great conversation, Tom.
I really appreciate I appreciate your time,

577
00:38:46.920 --> 00:38:51.800
all your thoughts. Could we could
definitely keep going for a long time,

578
00:38:51.880 --> 00:38:54.199
but that's a great way to wrap
up. But before we really go,

579
00:38:54.320 --> 00:38:59.159
if you could just one more time
share with the listeners a little bit more

580
00:38:59.159 --> 00:39:01.159
about your work. They can find
you and connect with you and learn even

581
00:39:01.239 --> 00:39:06.760
more about future Ready schools and everything
that you're doing. Awesome. So yeah,

582
00:39:06.760 --> 00:39:07.639
So if you want to check out
more on future Ready, check out

583
00:39:07.679 --> 00:39:12.079
futuready dot org. Pretty easy there. I encourage you to check out the

584
00:39:12.079 --> 00:39:15.599
framework future ready dot org slash framework
to look at some of the pieces we

585
00:39:15.719 --> 00:39:20.239
mentioned the curriculum, instruction assessment piece, but personalized professional learning and budget resources,

586
00:39:20.440 --> 00:39:22.639
all the other different facets with that, and we've got dozens and dozens

587
00:39:22.639 --> 00:39:29.000
of free resources to support all those
different things we're constantly highlighting case studies through

588
00:39:29.039 --> 00:39:34.559
podcasts or just different avenues really practical
ways to make this stuff happen, And

589
00:39:34.599 --> 00:39:37.840
so encourage you to check those out. Check out on social media, follow

590
00:39:37.880 --> 00:39:40.559
future Ready and all those different pieces
on all your major channels. On personally,

591
00:39:40.559 --> 00:39:43.679
you can check out Thomas C.
Murray dot com. It's going to

592
00:39:43.719 --> 00:39:45.960
link to a lot of it if
you're listening. If you're still listening to

593
00:39:45.960 --> 00:39:49.000
the podcast, however, many minutes
in, let me give you almost two

594
00:39:49.079 --> 00:39:52.800
hundred resources that I've put together,
videos, articles, things that go along

595
00:39:52.840 --> 00:39:54.719
with personal and authentic totally free.
If you go to Thomas C. Murray

596
00:39:54.760 --> 00:39:59.599
dot com slash resources the Last who
you Are, and it'll give you lots

597
00:39:59.639 --> 00:40:01.239
of stuff that I use when I
train folks, and videos and articles and

598
00:40:01.280 --> 00:40:05.199
things that might be able to support
your next faculty meeting, your next in

599
00:40:05.280 --> 00:40:07.119
service day, your next book study, whatever it might be. With that,

600
00:40:07.199 --> 00:40:09.440
so I encourage you to check there
out as well. But Dan,

601
00:40:09.519 --> 00:40:13.760
my final word to folks would be, even for those folks that are still

602
00:40:13.760 --> 00:40:16.719
listening and listen to any part of
this, a simple thanks for their work

603
00:40:16.760 --> 00:40:21.679
each and every day. I see
you I recognize how challenging it is to

604
00:40:21.719 --> 00:40:24.400
teach second grade every day or to
be a superintendent every day, and thanks

605
00:40:24.480 --> 00:40:27.880
for your work. Thanks for loving
and caring about kids. Thank you for

606
00:40:27.920 --> 00:40:30.480
the late nights in the early mornings
and the days where you feel like you

607
00:40:30.519 --> 00:40:32.400
can't go on, or the days
where you come home and you've got nothing

608
00:40:32.480 --> 00:40:37.079
left to give to those people that
matter most to you because you've left it

609
00:40:37.119 --> 00:40:38.559
all in the field. I just
want to say thank you to the educators

610
00:40:38.559 --> 00:40:43.159
who give so much every single day, and a quick reminder to make sure

611
00:40:43.199 --> 00:40:46.840
they take care of themselves in the
process as well. Thank you for that.

612
00:40:47.000 --> 00:40:51.800
Thank you teachers, Thank you listeners. Thank you no matter what your

613
00:40:51.880 --> 00:40:55.360
role is in this great field of
education and the line of work that we're

614
00:40:55.360 --> 00:41:00.920
in. Thank you Tom for your
time tonight. I knew when we can

615
00:41:00.679 --> 00:41:02.440
in person. I think we've seen
each other in person before, but it

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00:41:02.480 --> 00:41:06.519
was like the first real connection I
think that we made in person. I

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00:41:06.599 --> 00:41:09.519
knew I had to get you on
here, and I can safely say,

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00:41:09.559 --> 00:41:13.920
as well as I think my listeners
too, that this was value packed and

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00:41:14.760 --> 00:41:17.719
thirty eight minutes worth of some really
really amazing stuff. So thank you so

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00:41:17.880 --> 00:41:25.960
much. Thanks for the opportunity to
again. Well that's it for this episode.

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Thank you so much for listening.
If you haven't done so yet,

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00:41:30.760 --> 00:41:34.920
don't forget to subscribe to this show
on your favorite podcast app. If you

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00:41:35.039 --> 00:41:37.239
enjoy the content covered on this show, I want to ask you to do

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00:41:37.400 --> 00:41:42.920
this one thing for me. Please
share it. The biggest favor you could

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00:41:43.079 --> 00:41:46.119
ever do for me is to please
let others know about what I'm doing and

626
00:41:46.159 --> 00:41:52.079
how I'm helping educators grow their impact
as instructional leaders. I hope you can

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00:41:52.119 --> 00:41:55.960
share this podcast with other educators,
leaders, friends, or anyone you think

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would love listening and learning. If
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review of this show, links to
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00:42:05.559 --> 00:42:08.800
for every episode. For more information
about me or this show, and to

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00:42:08.920 --> 00:42:14.119
access the great content that I share, please visit my website at Leader of

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00:42:14.199 --> 00:42:17.920
Learning dot com. That's where you
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00:42:19.159 --> 00:42:22.880
blog, how to connect with me
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00:42:22.920 --> 00:42:27.800
that you can support the show like
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635
00:42:28.360 --> 00:42:31.559
Thanks again, and remember, no
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00:42:32.000 --> 00:42:34.760
you are a Leader of Learning.