Cultivating a Culture of Innovation in Schools with Tom Murray

0:00 You know, to create schools that are future ready, We've got to create cultures where people actually want to be, where innovation can thrive, where people can fail forward, where they can take risks, not places that are ruled by fear and compliance and thou shalt not. And by the way, I'm not just talking about our kids. Welcome to the Leader of Learning podcast. I'm your host, doctor Dan Krinis, and this is where I help educators grow their impact as instructional leaders because my research and leadership experiences have led me to understand that someone like you, regardless of your role or your title, can have a tremendous impact on your organization. I chat with inspiring guests who are truly making an impact as instructional leaders. Whether this is your first time listening or you come back for more, I hope you've subscribed to this show on your preferred podcast app so you don't miss any of the great episodes, topics, or guests. Anyway, I'm so glad you've tuned in. Now let's get started. Hello, Leader of Learning, and welcome into episode one sixty seven of the Leader of Learning podcast. I have a really great one for you, but before that, I just wanted to mention that I've actually created a new tool that I think you're gonna love. It's a leadership styles quiz. If you've ever taken one of those personality quizzes to tell you what type of personality you have, it's pretty similar, but this one will actually

1:32 help you determine what kind of leader you are if you're interested. It's only ten questions and it'll just take a few minutes, but it'll give you a lot of really great insights and information into what your style of leadership is. So if you are interested in finding out, head to Dan Krenz dot com slash quiz and take that brief ten question quiz to find your leadership style. All right now, onto the episode. In this episode, I have a very special guest, none other than Tom Murray, who's the director of Innovation for Future Ready Schools and a renowned expert in the field of education. In this episode, we're going to tackle some of the more pressing issues facing educators today, everything from the readiness and challenges of innovating within our classrooms and our school systems, to understanding the unique learning styles and needs of our students.

2:24 And we'll discuss the importance of really embracing a mindset shift around change and breaking free from cycles of negativity. So I can't wait for you to listen because I know you are going to get so much value out of this episode. Coming up after these messages is my interview with Tom Murray. Welcome back, Leader of Learning. I have an exciting guest on in this episode, someone who I met up with in person recently at Fetc. Really enjoyed some time there getting together in person, but I've loved listening to and consuming the content that this guy has put out for a long time. So I'm excited to welcome on Tom Murray. If you don't know Tom, he currently serves as the director of Innovation for Future Ready Schools. Prior to that, and prior to moving into this role in Washington, he was an elementary teacher, middle school teacher, middle school principal, elementary principal, district level administrator. He's done a lot, including writing some books. He's created a lot of content, best selling book with co author Eric Scheneger, Learning Transformed, and his most recent book, Personal and Authentic Designing Learning Experiences that Impact a Lifetime that was released in twenty nineteen. So first off, Tom, thanks so much for joining us, and if you could elaborate a little bit more on who you are, where you are and what you do awesome. Well, thank you so much, Dan, what an honored is to join the podcast.

3:58 Thanks for that quick overview. I like to say, with all those different positions, like I obviously couldn't keep a job, so now I work out of Washington, d C. Right, Like makes total sense though. You know, I was in a school just today and I spend a good amount of time in an early elementary pre cater to different classrooms, and just man, I the work that I'm doing now is incredible, and I get to work with amazing people across the country. But I share that because there's nothing like just this morning, being being with the little ones, having them come up, giving a big hug, and I'll tell you I missed that. And so you know, after spending time as a teacher, as an administrator, having the privilege to now work nationally. No matter where I go, Dan, there's amazing people working incredibly hard for kids. Some days I get to work with teachers, maybe it's a convocation, maybe it's a professional learning day. Some days I'm working with principles, superintendents getting to coach them a little bit on that end, and you know, just it's an honor to work with educators. They are some of the most giving, hard working, dynamic people on the planet. But let's be real, there's a lot of challenges out there, and so how do we continue to see challenges as opper coortunities and so get to run future ready schools? As you mentioned, I encourage you to check out futureready dot org, but I'll sell anything. Bipartisan nonprofit out of Washington, DC. We raise money to do the work that we do each and every day for school and district leaders and so it's an honor to connect with folks with that and as you mentioned, I get to write and speak and do that kind of stuff. And again, no matter where I go, there's great people. So thanks for having me on the podcast and excited to dive in absolutely And I think it would only be apropos

5:28 if if I got started by asking you about future readiness. Right, So, future Ready Schools do a lot of work to get teachers, educators, administrators, students of course, to be future ready. I'm going to hit you with a little bit of a chicken in the egg or the egg kind of a question, right, chicken or the egg? Which came first? Are we do we need to put in? I know it's all important, all right, but what's the top priority? Is it getting teachers future ready? Is it really understanding and getting students to get those skills that you know, you hear everybody talk about they're going to get jobs that don't even exist yet, Like what comes first? Yeah, So it's a good question, you know. I think when we talk future ready, we talk there's so many different facets of it. But first would also be mindset. Are we creating experiences for kids that are remotely relevant for today's learners? Right? I think we can all agree anybody that's ever spent more than a day in a classroom can hear kids asking like, why are we learning this? Why are we learning this? And to me, that's a sign of one of two things. Number one, maybe it's just a really good question, and maybe we need to evaluate some of the things that we've traditionally done. But number two, there's no connection to the why. And so taking a look when we look at future ready, it's really a mindset first and foremost around creating experiences that are going to be relevant for today's kids. You're right, it's a chicken or egg question, like which one can we do first? And let's be real, like we recognize there's no true arrival point of like, hey, we're here, we did it. We're not, Like, that's

7:00 not feasible, and so it's a continuous work of progress of how do we build on the great things that districts have been doing for decades, right, and how do we continue to prepare students for that world that is constantly evolving, that is constantly changing. So part of it and looking at, you know, the curricular side. We are not here to be at a national level telling people like, here's what you need to teach. Nobody would have that and totally understand why, right, That's not our role. But our role is to help school and district leaders make sure that they're making decisions, to make sure that the learning is relevant for kids, that the opportunity and access are there for all groups of kids, especially traditionally marginalized groups of students, and making sure that the workforce ready piece that you referenced as an area that we focused on as well. We see a lot of things across the country with pathways and redesign for skills. I think, you know, for a good period of time in our country, I think we put kids in this four year college box and if they didn't fit inside that box, it was like we failed or something wasn't right with them, and man, what a travesty that is and recognizing that and looking back at that. So, how do we create experience for kids that leverage their interests, their passions, their strengths to give them the skills to ultimately be what they want to be in life, to be whatever version of success they want to be. And maybe it's entering that workforce, entering the military, maybe it is going to a four year college, and how can we best support them with that?

8:22 So, you know, our work at future Ready is supporting school and district leaders to help build capacity to make that. I really believe that every educator does their best and the best that they know how, but we try to build some capacity for leadership to create the cultures where people want to be, you know, to create schools that are future ready. We've got to create cultures where people actually want to be schools and where innovation can thrive, where people can fail forward, where they can take risks, not places that are ruled by fear and compliance and thou shalt not. And by the way, I'm not just talking about our kids. I'm also talking about putting our staff in these boxes that they have to be contained over yere and they're fearful to do anything different. And well, how can we ask our staff to take risks when we're promoting it with our kids, but then not allowing our staff to do so? And so a lot of those pieces around mindsets, around experiences, and around environments ultimately create the what we would call future ready.

9:18 We have an entire framework for it and lots of different ways that we could talk through it and talk about it. But how do we create relevant learning experiences for kids? How do we provide the access and the opportunity that's needed. How do we build the leadership capacity and the cultures where people want to be so all of it can thrive. I'm going to take that and run with it. I have to piggyback off what you just finished with. So you talk about a culture of innovation and the opposite, let's say, of a culture of fear and intimidation and worry that a teacher might feel like they can't take risks, try new things, they can't innovate, And it's a really timely conversation and a really timely question. I'll tell you why quick aside.

10:05 Literally just today I was I have the fortune as a digital learning coach, but but a former literacy coach to actually kind of tag team with the literacy coach in my school to meet with teachers sometimes. And I was in a meeting today with a grade level of ELA teachers and this exact concept and aspect of the school culture came up. And the way that it came up was that a teacher said, I'm paraphrasing, but the teacher was like, I really want new ways to get students to show what they're learning. I don't just want them to write an essay. And of course I felt like, you know, that's well, that's where I come in as the digital learning coach, Like I got all these tricks and things up my sleeve that I can show you, and I'm a former ELA teacher, former literacy coach, like this is right up my alley. But still the I don't want to say the argument, but the hesitation was, but what if I get observed doing something that's not really in the curriculum. And so it really was that that aspect of the intimidation and the fear, like you said, it was there, and I was happy that this teacher wants to, you know, think outside the box, wants to do some things differently. But I also felt like, man, we're still at a stage where teachers are so worried about where they have to be in the curriculum and doing the exact culminating

11:35 task that it says that they have to do, and not being able to get themselves or their students outside the box. Yeah. So there's so much unpack with what you just said, and a lot I can connect to Number one. I think you see just in that story the impact of leadership, right. I referenced earlier being in a building this morning that I was reflected on and hanging with some of these young elementary students, and conversations that I had with teachers that were almost the opposite in that one of the things we really appreciate our principle is he lets us run, he lets us try new things. He encourage us to think outside of the box. And so just those two contrasting pieces, First of all, I think you could find in any district or any place. You know, it's not anything unique about two different schools there. I think you'd hear that story over and over and over.

12:22 But what we're pointing at is the importance of leadership, the ability for leadership to say I'm going to model for you what innovation can look like. I'm going to model for you failing forward. I'm going to own things when I screw it up as your principle, and I'm going to find a way to pick up those pieces and move forward to model to you. Hey, when I mess this up, here's how you pick up the pieces and move forward. And it's okay. As good as you are, you're human and you're going to make mistakes. I think you're pointing to a lot of times where it is this fear. And let's also be very real, there's very toxic leadership out there. I'll be the first to see it and admit it. And I don't believe any principle gets up in a given day and says like I want to be the dinner table conversation tonight in a negative way.

13:05 I think it's rooted in people believing they're doing the right thing you know, even in toxic environments. And I'm not saying what you were referring to is totally toxic, but I'm thinking of the extremes out there for folks that are listening that may be feeling like, yeah, that is a principle where if I step one word out of that guide in that given day, I'm going to get my hand slapped. And I know people that really feel like that. And so I think recognizing, you know, from a leadership end, I really think those pieces come from those principles, feeling like to do the best we can for kids, it has to be exactly here, and I'm doing my best to help you stay in there. I think it comes out of a good place ninety nine out of one hundred times, I really do.

13:46 However, the problem becomes when that's my mindset. As a principle, I'm doing the opposite of what I'm asking them to do with kids. If I'm going to ask kids to take risks, I've got to create environments where my teachers can take risks. If I'm want to recognize that failure is a part of learning, I've got to recognize that when I'm asking my teachers encouraging them to try new things. It's not going to always work. They're going to fall in their face at times. And you know what, that's okay. I'm not talking about not planning or you know, being not prepared. I don't mean that at all. That's a different issue. But if we're asking people to try a new assessment, try a new instructional strategy, and it doesn't go okay, and then I'm the first person barking down their neck being like you wasted seven minutes of instructional time, that person will never take a risk again, right, you know? I think back to one of my early principles when I was an elementary teacher give a shout out to a guy named Bill Gretzula. Was when I was an early teacher, I had no idea what I was doing. I was trying to figure it out.

14:43 He was somebody that created a culture where we really wanted to be. He had really high expectations and high standards. It wasn't just a free for all, do whatever you want. But at the same time he would definitely really push instructionally. And I can think about some supervision conversations that I had where the lesson was like so so probably not great. And you know he didn't just sugarcoat everything like everything's wonderful. You don't have to ever change anything because then he's not helpful as an instructional leader, right, And you get that in your role as a coach. But the flip side is every signal time I walked out with my dignity, every single time I walked out feeling like, you know what, maybe I will try that. I see why I could do that differently. To me, that comes down to the culture piece, the relationship piece, and the trust. Like as admin with teachers, if I've got that trust, if my teachers know I've got their back and we've built that trust, I'm going to be much more willing to try something, to step out, try a different way of working with kids. But if I don't, or if it's this constant game of gotcha and not I gotcha, right, then people won't do that. To me, I don't know why. That's not rocket science, right, Like what we're asking our teachers to do with kids, we need to be doing with our staff.

15:52 Honestly, anything else is hypocritical And I don't know how to say that. It's kind of like that and I say this as a former principle as somebody that works with principle, and principles are some of the best people on the planet on the whole, for sure. But it's kind of like the principle that tells teachers, you know, I expect you to get back to back to parents within twenty four hours, but when you email me, I get like a six week grace period, right, And so I think my question for ADMIN is going along this point is how do we model the type of experiences we want our kids to have with our teachers. If we want our teachers to communicate clearly, we need to communicate clearly. If we want our parents to be in constant understanding of understanding with all the different things that are going on, well we as principles better be doing a darn good job for that for our staff as well. And so lots of facets to what you said. But I think underlying our culture, relationships and trust, and you know, I think those kinds of things take a while to build. You know, if I'm a new principle in a building, recognize you're coming at it with people with decades of experience that maybe a time or two felt burned.

16:55 Maybe their time or two felt like, hey, they were tried something, they were vulnerable, and then they got chastised the next day in a postop. Well like that can sit with people for decades unless the trust is there, And so we've got to do it repetitively to show them that we can build that trust, because trust is such a delicate thing, isn't it. I Mean, that's something that can take a really long time to build, and it can be shattered overnight in an email. And so I think creating those environments and all of that relates to when we talk about creating inclusive cultures with future ready schools. The relationship and the trust or the foundation of that, just like it's the foundation of the classroom, just like it's the foundation of a faculty meeting, just like it's also the fact of the foundation of a faculty room conversation with no administrators in it. This podcast is a proud member of the Teach Better Podcast Network, Better Today, Better Tomorrow, and the Podcast to Get You there. Explore more podcasts at www dot Teach Better podcastnetwork dot com. Now let's get back to the episode. I love so much of what you said, and I'm really glad that you pulled in that that leadership piece talking about how school leaders administrators really need to model their expectations of their staff, but you know, and through their own actions.

18:14 Really really shameless plug here, and I almost apologize to do it. But for my listeners, if you don't know already, I have a free online course. It's it's I market it as what's it called Unlock your Leadership Potential. But that whole course came out of the idea of building trust and building this culture in your school where and I go through like do's and don'ts right, do this if you want to build trust and have a really great culture of innovation, and don't do this if you want to basically u break the trust of everyone near you building. So shameless plug. If you want to take that course, it's so much of what we're talking about out right now, But it's at Dan Krenz dot com slash free course. Enough of that, let's move forward. I wanted to ask you as you were talking.

19:07 I think it's only natural for educators to I guess naysay a little bit. Maybe when we're so optimistic right about, hey, we need to innovate, we have to build this culture where we are free to take risks and all this stuff, Like it sounds great at the end of the day, as you alluded to before, there's still a lot of challenges out there, and I don't want to sway you in any one direction. I really just want to get your honest opinion about this. Are we in early twenty twenty four, Like, are we in a system in education where we can say we're ready to really move forward? Like are we being supported enough yet to really be able to do this stuff? I don't want to I don't want to sway your answer, like I said, but I just I think of all the we've already talked a little bit about curriculum that that kind of you know, traps people in makes them feel like they don't have a lot of room to interpret and to and to innovate. Testing is still there, all these you know, accountability measures. So I'm just wondering how you feel about that.

20:26 Yeah, So my shirt answer is absolutely yes, because I see it all the time. I think one of the best things we can do, is educators is go out and see things that are way outside of our comfort zones and our bubbles. You know, I spent a number of years my whole career in one school district throughout in Pennsylvania, Great District. We were recognized all over the place for innovative stuff. And then when I left and started looking at things nationally, I can't tell you the amount of times I was like, holy crap, we weren't remotely doing that. Wow, Like look at that over there. And so on one hand, I personally get to see a lot. I'm in probably eighty places a given year, so I get to see a lot of different things, and there's awesomeness and excellence all over the place. In fact, most things that districts struggle with, I guarantee you there's a district within three or four hours that's crushing it somewhere by the way, with higher levels of need and less of a budget, because I see those arguments in those things all over the place. So to answer your question, absolutely, because I see it. However, let me put the caveat not necessarily at scale, and what I mean by that is there's a ridiculous amount of roadblocks in public education that we put in everything from budgets, which are very very real issues, to things that get in the way like politics, Right, Like the average tenure of a superintendent before COVID was three and a half years. Post COVID, I just heard yesterday is two point nine years, which means our captain of the ship changes every three

21:57 years. Do we understand the cultural implications for that? Do we understand that we put teachers in positions that it's often like start stop start stop, start stop, Yes, nope, we're not doing that anymore. Nope, do this over here and not try this off. We're now do this, And then we wonder at times why they become skeptical, right, and so on. Sometimes I think some of the skepticism, to use your word that's there, I get it is justified. Like the human mind can only take somebody like yes, do don't do it this way? Dope, do it this way, Dope, do it this, Nope, can't do it that. Now we're gonna use this, and like people start to naturally shut down because your brain is wired for safety, and so to get at the root of your question as also, you also have to look at the way your brain is wired. Your brain wired for safety means your brain is wired for comfort, which means you're going to do things that are comfortable for you. Stepping out of your comfort zone, trying brand new things is actually not inherently a normal thing, and your brain doesn't really want to do it. It's an interesting thing. You look at the learning sciences, it's fascinating on that.

22:59 So I think when we look at the safety component of the brain, knowing that like we're not necessarily wired to just try all this brand new stuff and do all those things, I think it's just as a component to recognizing like growth and stuff like that takes time. So on one hand, we see it all over the place, and I would challenge listeners to like get out of your districts, get out of your schools, go find things across the country that are happening or you know. I think that's an advantage to social media and those things. You get to see these great things. A future ready part of our role is to spotlight great things like this Digital Learning Day, like on February fifteenth that we just had, like taking a look like spotlighting different things across the country. Those are examples that I think can help push our own mindset with that. The other piece that I would say to mindset and the way the brain is is your brain sticks, and I need to look up the exact statistics here, but there's connections and studies that show like how many positives you need compared to a negative, right, And it's why like negativity drive sales, It's why negativity you'll see far more on the front of a newspaper because people will pick it up than just the positive.

24:03 But I think that also connects with mindset, and I think that also connects with systems change, where it's a lot easier to get a cycle of negativity in a school than get the cycle of positivity. It's a lot harder to break that cycle of negativity than it is to break things that seemed to be going pretty well. And so to answer your question, I would say, I know it's very possible because I see it every day and just working ghost to ghosts, But to scale it is really a challenge because there are many things stacked against us. The amount of the amount of assessments and those pieces and things take very very real amounts of time. And also just again going back to some of just the real constraints that we've had obviously throughout COVID, and just some of those pieces are just vast realities and I think it's naive to neglect those, but I also think we need those can do mindsets like we will figure this out mindset, because I think that's what our kids deserve.

24:53 But I will also say the vast amount of educators that I know and work with, that is their mindset, and so I know they're working with the best that they have. I'd love to kind of give my own answer here. I don't let me. Let's turn the table. I appreciate that, and watch what I do here. All you podcasters or want to be podcasters, watch how I segue this into my next question. I love everything you said. I don't want to take away from your answer at all. But the one thing that I think when it comes to like are we there yet? Can we do this? I always go back to yes and and singularly my reason is because our students are ready. And again, I'll give you a really quick story. I I'm I actually facilitate a student tech team at my school. And again timely conversation that we're having. Just today I met with the tech team, and my tech team president eighth grader at my school said to me, doctor Crinis, I visited another school recently I think it was a private school, maybe somewhere where he's considering going and are applying to for high school. And he said, I noticed that a difference between our school and their school is that their school seems to and I'm paraphrasing again, turn a lot more time over to students to do the work. And it was a pretty cool teaching teachable moment for me to kind of bring him into the mind space of an educator. I was using terms like stage on the stage and guide on the side, and I was telling them about how

26:26 we want our teachers to be facilitators. But for an eighth grader to really put that into perspective and put that into his own words, I was really proud of him. But again, like it was just an example of what I say all the time is that our students are ready. And so for me when it comes to can we do the work, like you said, people are doing it right. And maybe it's not whole scale change yet in terms of some of the things that we want to see, but change is happening, and I love how you put that positive spin on it. So here's my segue, all right, So can I jump back in there and say go ahead. I love to respond to your thoughts. I actually the moment you started talking about kids, my first thought was I just went on for five minutes about all the things, and all I talked about was adults.

27:17 And so kudos to you because I actually defer to your answer because I couldn't agree more. Where when we look at so many times, and I'm talking about myself here, I'm not throwing any other educator out of the bus, how many times is it me that was holding back kids? How many times was it me thinking like, well, they're only nine or ten, they'll probably only be able to And how many times did I put the lid on what my kids were capable of because of my limited mindset? And so yeah, when you step back and you look what kids are doing, I mean, and I'm not just talking about the random board presentation that comes up for a particular program or whatnot, but man, our kids today are absolutely amazing, and I think giving them the opportunities to run to try things, to tap into their interests and their passions and the strengths, like they're going to find a way to be successful and do things differently because they already are and so so kudos to your answer there. So what was your next one?

28:11 What do you got? Yeah? Thanks, No, So that that's where I wanted to use that as a as a launching point too. So, you know, we talk about students, we talk about that they're ready. A lot of them are hungry for change, for learning in ways that they want to learn, learning about things that they want to learn. And I know that that's a lot of what you have written about and preach about and talk about when you're out there on the speaking circuit. So you know, when we talk about personal and authentic learning experiences for students, take us down that path a little bit too, because again, I think it was natural how we got into that, right, talking about our students are ready, we want I just had that meeting today where a teacher was like, I want to create new activities, new tasks for students that are not just writing an essay on paper, right, And I think although he didn't say it, I'd like to think that the rationale was I know that it's going to be more engaging and authentic from high students, you know, So let me bring in on that one too. Yeah, So you know, I think my first lens comes as a dad. Here. So my daughter's in eighth grade. She's your compliant kid. She plays school well. She can sit in a traditional classroom, She'll be quiet, she'll raise her hand, she'll do her homework every night, she gets a's every time. That's just who she is. She's a really smart kid. She struggles to think outside the box. She struggles to do things differently if she wasn't told to do it that. Let me introduce you to my son. He's the opposite of

29:42 everything that I just said. He's the one that struggles to sit sill more than five minutes. He's the one that's like, what day of the week even ask him about homework? Homework? We don't have Do we have homework? I don't even know. He is one of the most creative thinkers that I've ever seen. He's the one that will take anything in the house, take anything there, and say like, can I do this differently? Can I find a better way to do it? If I were to look at who would I deem successful twenty five years and of course that term is going to be very, very careful. She will absolutely find a job I know it where she'll be passionate about. But like a job that's very orderly in finding the rules. My son will probably start three companies. He'll probably fail miserably in the first two and then crush it in the third and probably employ one hundred people. So when I look at these two, and again not to say one's more successful, because I'm not defining it just by money on that end, but they are totally different kids. Yet they have the exact same upbringing, the exact same resources, the exact same parenting structure, the exact same grandparents, all of it. And they are completely different children, completely different learners. And so if they're coming from the same DNA and they're that different, how much more different are twenty five kids that come from different households, different parents, structures in a sitting in a classroom. And so when I talk personal and authentic, and part of my goal in writing that is recognize, if my two children are that different, how much more different?

31:08 But with that difference in diversity and diversity and differences, how many more strengths do we have when we look at a community of learners, we look at all that different opportunity. And so I think, you know, when I look at I created the personal and authentic framework to help people, and what are the different ways that we can explore some of this, exploring interests and passions and strengths, looking at some of the moments of AWE the social emotional side of things, right, recognizing that it goes beyond math, reading and writing that, yeah, we can graduate a student with this perfect GPA get into all the Ivy League schools, But can we be real, like if they hate life and are really really struggling here and don't have any friends and are really struggling all across here, Like, are we totally successful and celebrating that to recognize that, Like, kids are far more complex than any sort of test scores in that regard. And so when I talk personal and authentic, how do we see that child for who they are? How do we recognize that child for being beautifully unique? How do we get to know, as I call in personal and authentic, the hidden stories within, to recognize every child that walks into our classroom each day has stories on their hearts that we're not going to ever know. And some of them are really really great things, and some of them can be struggles. And so I think that goes back to earlier conversation on creating environments where people want to be relationships and trust and all those pieces. But how do we make sure that we see that every learner in our classroom is beautifully unique and finding ways to tap into those interests and passions and strengths. Now, I'm not one that's so far out there saying, you know, kids should learn whatever they want at

32:38 any point in time and be able to do whatever they want all day long. I recognize that's just not a scalable structure. And let's be real, if I could do whatever I wanted to do all day long, I would probably naturally go to things that I like, that I enjoy, that i'm strong at strong with, But there probably be a lot of things left that i'd leave out that I really do need in life. And so we do need structures, We do need systems the only way to scale it, but we also want to in that offer them opportunity, offer them voice. You were talking about tools and different assessments and things like that earlier, and sometimes it's saying like, here's the standard, here's the way you've got to show me that you learn this that I'll understand it. But here's five different ways that I'm okay with you showing that you want to write a play about it.

33:23 Write a play about it, you want to write an essay about it, Let's write an essay about it. You want to do a speech to the class on it, Let's do that. And so sometimes as teachers we look at it like, well, how in the world could I ever do this? And yeah, if you were trying to let every kid do whatever they want every day and every way, you couldn't. There's only twenty four hours in the day. But sometimes just giving them the voice to create choice, to say here's the way that I would love to do that, you can get kids so much more invested as opposed to here's my only one size fits all. The other piece to that is recognizing, like we're all going to enter a workforce that's going to have some parameters, some guidelines. Even if it's hey, I'm creating my own business, I can do it how I want. I mean, that's all well and good, which is true, but you also have to work with a public that have some social norms about interacting with people the way I'm going to communicate, being responsive in all of that. And so I think, how do we create environments going back to what are we saying earlier with the future ready side, that are relevant, that are also accessible. And I think the equity side of this conversation is really really important. We're not just talking about our white suburban kids walking into computer science and classrooms that a lot of the kids happen to look like us. We're crawking about how do we create experiences that for each child and that and I think that's where we talk about the scale being really really important.

34:40 That's where we talk about the experience itself not being something that's just done too, but something that they're a vital part of. And I think going back to the voice, I think there's a lot of opportunity to give kids voice in the mix. To go back to our previous conversation. If we're going to talk about giving kids and I shouldn't even I don't even like the term giving them voice because they have it. Sometimes we just shut it down. I guess it's a better way to say it, right, like when we say, like, you know, empower them with voice, like they've got it. Sometimes we just don't listen or we don't care. And so I think bringing that out. But if we're going to ask our teachers to do that, we need to do the same for them in professional learning. So where do you start with that? Ask kids and then don't be upset with their feedback their thoughts. Now, granted, take it with the grain of salt of sometimes they're sixteen or seventeen, and seventeen year olds can be pretty interesting creatures. They're probably not going to hold back, but their voice matters, right, and so ask them what they want. Ask them what's missing as they finish up a grade level? Ask them what were the best parts of learning? What did you wish we did this year? What wasn't any fun this year? What would you do differently if you became the teacher tomorrow? And I think, and I said, you know, at the end of the year, because as we think about approaching that, but you know, I think I wouldn't just ask that at that point in the year.

35:53 I think asking kids all the time, how do we design that differently? What would that look? And just get some feedback to show them that they're voice matters and that you really do care. So it's not just something done to them, but something they're part of. I want to kind of offer I'm just taking all sorts of liberties on my own show tonight, I answered my own question before. I want to kind of offer a parting thought, final thought if I might, and it's based on a lot of what you just said. You use the word several times strengths. You talked about interests and passions, but you use the word strength several times. And one of the big takeaways that I think I have from this conversation is when we talk about future readiness, when we talk about innovation in schools, when we talk about giving students voice, as you were just saying, I think what I would love to see down the road right as we get future ready is more of a strength based approach, so that we are valuing and empowering the part of a student where they are really thriving. And I know you said, like you use your own experience where it's like, yeah, if you gave me time, I would want to explore what I'm really interested in, and I know it still needs to learn other things, and obviously that's what school is going to do for students too, but we got to stop just working so much on bringing up what students are not doing well in and really

37:28 find what they're thriving in and emphasize that and provide more opportunities for that too. So thank you for allowing me to get up on my high horse again. It's just I got to think in as you were talking, and I just felt like I needed to add that. Yeah, no, Dan, I love that. And actually this morning was having a conversation on exactly that topic of how easy it is to look at kids through a deficit mindset. We're sitting in the data team meeting and listen, there's a great purpose for those but we've got to be really careful. It doesn't become here's the forty seven things Johnny's missing, and we ever talk about what he's good at. If all we're looking for is deficits, we're gonna find them all over the place. If we're primarily looking for strengths, we're gonna see them all over the place. And so I use the word strengths purposefully in the personal and authentic framework to recognize even our neediest students have incredible strengths. And at times if all we do is focus on that negative, if I'm working with a teacher and all I'm focusing is on what they're lacking, they're gonna burn out real quick. And guess what kids are too, And so seeing the greatness choosing our lens and seeing that the strengths that they do have are such a vital aspect to creating those personal and authentic experiences for kids. I don't even have anything else to say or ask at this point. Out it was this was a great conversation, Tom. I really appreciate I appreciate your time, all your thoughts. Could we could definitely keep going for a long time, but that's a great way to wrap up. But before we really go, if you could just one more time share with the listeners a little bit more

38:59 about your work. They can find you and connect with you and learn even more about future Ready schools and everything that you're doing. Awesome. So yeah, So if you want to check out more on future Ready, check out futuready dot org. Pretty easy there. I encourage you to check out the framework future ready dot org slash framework to look at some of the pieces we mentioned the curriculum, instruction assessment piece, but personalized professional learning and budget resources, all the other different facets with that, and we've got dozens and dozens of free resources to support all those different things we're constantly highlighting case studies through podcasts or just different avenues really practical ways to make this stuff happen, And so encourage you to check those out. Check out on social media, follow future Ready and all those different pieces on all your major channels. On personally, you can check out Thomas C. Murray dot com. It's going to link to a lot of it if you're listening. If you're still listening to the podcast, however, many minutes in, let me give you almost two hundred resources that I've put together, videos, articles, things that go along with personal and authentic totally free. If you go to Thomas C. Murray dot com slash resources the Last who you Are, and it'll give you lots of stuff that I use when I train folks, and videos and articles and things that might be able to support your next faculty meeting, your next in service day, your next book study, whatever it might be. With that, so I encourage you to check there out as well. But Dan, my final word to folks would be, even for those folks that are still listening and listen to any part of this, a simple thanks for their work each and every day. I see you I recognize how challenging it is to teach second grade every day or to be a superintendent every day, and thanks for your work. Thanks for loving and caring about kids. Thank you for the late nights in the early mornings and the days where you feel like you

40:30 can't go on, or the days where you come home and you've got nothing left to give to those people that matter most to you because you've left it all in the field. I just want to say thank you to the educators who give so much every single day, and a quick reminder to make sure they take care of themselves in the process as well. Thank you for that. Thank you teachers, Thank you listeners. Thank you no matter what your role is in this great field of education and the line of work that we're in. Thank you Tom for your time tonight. I knew when we can in person. I think we've seen each other in person before, but it was like the first real connection I think that we made in person. I knew I had to get you on here, and I can safely say, as well as I think my listeners too, that this was value packed and thirty eight minutes worth of some really really amazing stuff. So thank you so much. Thanks for the opportunity to again. Well that's it for this episode.

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