Empowering Justice and Elevating Student Voice with Lindsay Lyons

WEBVTT

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I like radically right. It's a
radical view. I see students as my

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colleagues. I am in partnership with
them, right, And that's the case

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for a lot of educators. It
is a big departure, though, from

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a lot of how we were educated. Welcome to the Leader of Learning podcast.

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I'm your host, doctor Dan Krenis, and this is where I help

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educators grow their impact as instructional leaders
because my research and leadership experiences have led

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me to understand that someone like you, regardless of your role or your title,

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can have a tremendous impact on your
organization. I chat with inspiring guests

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who are truly making an impact as
instructional leaders. Whether this is your first

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time listening or you've come back for
more, I hope you've subscribed to this

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show on your preferred podcast app so
you don't miss any of the great episodes,

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topics, or guests. Anyway,
I'm so glad you've tuned in.

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Now let's get started. Welcome back
Leader of Learning to episode one sixty four

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of the podcast. First and foremost, I want to wish you a happy

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holiday season. If you're like me
and you're listening from the US, Happy

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Thanksgiving as we just celebrated that holiday
a couple of weeks ago, and I

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hope you're gearing up for an amazing
holiday season as Hanukkah and Christmas and all

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of the winter holidays are rapidly approaching. I will have a couple of new

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episodes leading up to the holidays,
starting with this one. In episode one

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sixty four, we have a remarkable
guest joining us. Lindsay Lyons is an

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educational justice coach and expert in creating
feminist, anti racist curricula, and she'll

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be sharing her insights and experiences with
us. In a very eye opening conversation,

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Lindsay sizes the crucial role of instructional
processes and tools in promoting justice in

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education. She highlights the needs for
structures and processes that involves students in conversations

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about justice and the significance of stakeholder
diversity and representation at the heart of it

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all. Lindsay reveals the power of
adaptive leadership in addressing these kinds of challenges,

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including racism. So I am very
excited for you to hear this interview

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and conversation with Lindsay coming up.
After these messages, we'll get right to

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it. Welcome back, Leader of
Learning. I have an exciting guest with

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me this episode, Lindsay Lyons.
And Lindsay is an educational justice coach who

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helps schools and districts co create feminist, anti racist curricula that challenges, affirms,

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and aspires all students. She's a
former New Yorker the public school teacher.

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That's right, we have that in
common. I forgot about that.

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She holds a PhD in leadership and
change. She's the founder of the blog

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and podcast called Time for Teachership.
She believes the secret sauce of educational equality

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is student voice. That's really refreshing
to hear. I really appreciate that,

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Lindsay, so welcome to the show. If there's anything that I missed about

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who you are, where you are, and what you do, please fill

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us in. I think it's hard
as a listener of a podcast, it's

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hard to kind of tell who the
person is if you can't visually see them.

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So I'll just describe myself, especially
because I'm in the intersectional justice space

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of educational coaching, that I'm a
white, cist, gendered woman. I

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live on the indigenous lands of the
Massachusetts and Nimuck and the pop tuckets and

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everything that I do or stay here
today is basically not from my brain,

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right, it's from like the collaboration
that we always have as educators with others

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and learning with those who are contemporary
to us and those who have come before

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us. I just want to kind
of put that acknowledgment out there. Appreciate

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that so I know that well,
first, well, I want to let

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the listeners know that you and I
first got connected through our entrepreneurial or entrepreneurial

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ventures. And I know that at
this point, you do a lot of

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work, as I'm going to say, consultant, correct me if there's a

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better term to use, but consulting
with schools around this idea of really and

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again correct me if I'm wrong,
like retooling and revamping, rethinking their curriculum

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around it sounds like a lot of
different topics ranging from anti racism and feminism.

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And you mentioned actually just before we
hit record here that a lot of

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the work that you're doing is really
more like cultural you know, working on

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the culture and climate in the building. So let's start with that. I

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guess I'm just wondering, like generally, and then we can kind of get

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more specific from there. What are
you seeing in you know, November December

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of twenty twenty three. When it
comes to where schools, especially public school

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are at with their curriculum and in
what areas are they really seeking that help

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with, Oh my gosh, what
a fantastic question. So I think that

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a lot of folks at the leadership
level are ready for the curriculum to be

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different, right, And I often
see this in like US history courses have

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been by far the most popular.
I mean I am an ela literacy and

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history teacher by practice, like in
my teaching days, so that is my

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area of profession. I hesitate to
use the word expertise. I never feel

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like I'm an expert in anything,
but I think, you know, that's

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where people gravitate to ask me questions
about. But then when we dig into

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it, it's like, are we
actually ready for that? And so one

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of the things that I kind of
take people through is like, well,

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we have to first have one a
mindset on the part of all of the

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staff involved of partnership with the research
and student voice. Research called radical collegiality.

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So I like radically right, it's
a radical view. I see students

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as my colleagues. I'm in partnership
with them, right, And that's the

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case for a lot of educators.
It is a big departure though, from

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a lot of how we were educated. So there are some teachers who are

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like, you know what, no, you listen to me because I have

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the degree and that's it, right, So if we don't have that mindset,

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that's like the very first place we
start, and then the next piece

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is really building that sense of belonging, that culture building and then starting to

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layer in the pedagogical practices and just
be like, Okay, do we have

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student discussion? Do we have student
voice? Is this kind of the way

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we run our class? Okay?
Now we might be ready, And I

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think there are folks who are ready
to just jump right in at the curriculum

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level, and we design the curriculum
in a way that kind of does all

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of these other things. So teachers
are like, WHOA, if I give

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students voice in that space, you
know the project is super cool and co

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created and awesome. Yeah, I
can totally see how it would be easier

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for me to let go because I've
built it in that way. So I

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think there's two approaches, and it's
a mixed bag of like people who are

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ready for the work at different entry
points. I want to ask you an

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opinion question because I think you're kind
of the perfect person to ask this,

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and I'm not trying to throw my
school or any of the teachers under the

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bus, but I will preface this
question by saying that in my role as

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a digital learning coach, one of
the things that I realized recently through some

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data and evidence that we discovered based
on a teacher technology survey that the staff

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at my school took, was that, unfortunately, one of the areas where

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the teachers self admitted that they kind
of struggle in is providing opportunities for student

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choice through technology. And so I
really love that I have you on talking

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about this now, because what I
want to ask you is your opinion of

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how are we still in twenty twenty
three not as good as we need to

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be with providing students choice and,
like you said, really giving them opportunities,

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the students opportunities to be more partners
in their own education and you know,

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basically like, how do they have
more of a seat at the table

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of their own learning? Yeah?
Oh my gosh, So as a former

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tech integration coach, I am like
with you on this and I've seen the

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exacting things, so I have to
say that I think about this in three

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kind of categories, the how to
use tech for and generally write any practice

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of pedagogy for student choice. So
I see like content, process, and

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product. So one is like,
what are the forms of content of using

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UDIL language, right, Like multiple
multiple means of oh now I'm forgetting it

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right, multiple means of representation there
we go and so and then multiple means

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of expression being kind of like the
product, and then the process being somewhere

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along the way. So content would
look like, you know, I might

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put together a video, a podcast, episode, and an article right that

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all convey the same information. So
I'm kind of using this multiple media sources

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to be able to share with the
students. I could also make it kind

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of engaging, which I think gets
a little into process. I could you

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know, use some different apps that
like ed puzzle right that kind of like

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make it interactive or all these sorts
of things. The process piece allows people

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to use tools like Coggle or different
things where you can like use some mind

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mapping that are digital or you could
use paper right, a no tech option

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or you know, it's like how
do you learn and kind of put the

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pieces together best? And then my
favorite is the product and that is typically

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how I will actually design units with
folks. So it'll be like, Okay,

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what's the end goal, what's the
driving question of the unit? Like

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what's that really interesting thing that as
adults we love our subject and we're constantly

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talking about it with other adults,
like this is like something we're grappling with.

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There's no right answer, right.
And from there the next step is

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like what's what's the product, Like
what is the project that students are working

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on, and what are they going
to like share with an authentic audience and

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make it meaningful and like they can
personalize it in whatever way they want,

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right, whether that's a content sub
specialization, whether that's like the way they

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present it. So I think there
are so many options there. I used

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to do a lot of media stuff, so I was into like making documentaries

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with my students. I've done a
lot of workshops on like how to create

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podcasts as your kind of summative assessment. So there's a lot of different ways

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that we can incorporate tech and like
how you present beyond just you know,

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I'm typing a paper on Google Docs
or I'm making a presentation in Google slides.

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This podcast is a proud member of
the Teach Better Podcast Network, Better

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podcasts at www dot Teach Better Podcastnetwork
dot com. Now let's get back to

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the episode. Yes, so this
is this is going to sound funny because

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I know this is this is what
you do, and of course if there

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wasn't a need for it, you
wouldn't be doing it. But like,

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how comes schools? I think you
mentioned this before for a little bit about

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leadership, like they want to make
change, But how are schools and districts

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having a hard time sort of auditing
or analyzing their own curriculum for these gaps

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in you know, well, let's
just take student choice for example, that

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maybe they their teachers haven't quite figured
out how to give more opportunities and turn

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more of that responsibility for learning over
to students. Yes, oh my gosh,

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yes, Okay, So when I
think that there are not always I

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mean they are out there, but
maybe not in the hands of leaders,

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Like there aren't always great tools that
integrate all the things, right, So

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we might have a tool like a
walkthrough tool or you know, an observation

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tool or whatever very brick that prioritizes
some of those aspects but not others.

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And so if you use student voice
and student co creation and partnership as kind

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of the centerpiece and then build out
from there, well, what does co

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creation and student voice look like in
assessment? What does it look like in

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you know, student discussion, that
kind of thing. I think that's a

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that's an opportunity for reflection. Like
if you create yourself among like the leadership,

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the team or the staff, right, and you say like, well,

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what are we actually looking for when
we go in a classroom and you

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do these walks and you kind of
like norm around this stuff. I think

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that's part of it. And I
think the other part is that there is

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such hesitation, particularly when we talk
about like US history or ELA and what

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books are we choosing? What stories
are we telling? Right? And when

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we have legislation at a national level, right, that's like anti critical race

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theory and right, all of these
different pieces that people are contending with as

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they're trying to teach truth. Right, there's like all sorts of things that

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folks. I mean, even in
Massachusetts, I've had leaders say, well,

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actually, my district, like they're
they're really into the rah rah like

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diversity, equity, inclusion. We
put up a nice poster about it,

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but when it comes down to it, we're not actually ready to take the

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action steps. And while that individual
leader will say hey, I'm interested,

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the district, maybe their bosses or
you know whatever, people looking at the

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politics of everything or saying actually,
we're not ready. One I think there's

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a kind of a concern. I
think it's about where are we going in

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our brains, right, Like who
are we thinking and anticipating will complain?

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And often those are people with more
institutional power, you know, they are

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the people who have more access to
complain. They are typically the voices that

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we listen to and maybe even not
take a step forward because we're anticipating that

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even if it might might not happen. And then another piece is like there's

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there's just not enough information about like
well what was this would this actually look

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like? So what I actually walk
through with someone who might be resistant to

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the idea even themselves, a family
member, right, a leader, a

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teacher, whoever it is, And
we say, well, actually, here's

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what this process looks like. Often
the result is they're saying, oh,

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so the students can choose the thing
that they're studying, right, You're not

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like forcing them to like take this
position or analyze this whatever. It's like.

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No, I'm teaching them to be
a critical thinker, right, I'm

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teaching them to analyze power dynamics.
I'm teaching them like some really important skills.

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And that's what it looks like to
create. And so I think lack

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of information and also fear of reprisal, but fear of reprisal from like maybe

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not the people that we should be
prioritizing in are planning exactly right. Yeah,

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And as you were talking, I
was thinking we should probably back up

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a little bit and let's talk a
little bit about what student choice is.

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You mentioned process and product and content
before, which makes me think about differentiated

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instruction a lot, but you know, student choices is part it could be

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part of that. What I think
of student choice through technology, As I

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mentioned before, I think a lot
of people would would think, Okay,

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giving students an opportunity to prove mastery
or lack thereof of the content by using

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technology to maybe you know, create
a slide show or like you were saying

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before, maybe some content like they
podcast or something. So is that what

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we're talking about or what else can
you shed light up? When it comes

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to like, actually, what student
choice is? I love discussion, So

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I think one of the things I
try to differentiate is the difference between student

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choice and student voice. And so
choice to me is like you know,

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a typical choice board or something like
Okay, we're going to do a do

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now you can do this question or
this question right or something like that.

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So that's like kind of forced choice. So we have like these options you

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can choose from these. A kind
of hybrid between that and voice might be

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like you can choose option A B
or create your own, which is category

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CE right, And so sometimes we
see that blend. I think for voice,

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there's a definition that I'm going to
paraphrase because they don't remember it exactly,

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But from the student voice field,
that's basically like student voice is giving

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students the option to make decisions about
anything that impacts them, right, And

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so that's a big category. So
from what we eat in a lunch room

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and how we run the class and
what they're studying, what questions. They're

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grappling with what pedagogies they use,
how do they work in groups or individually?

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Like all the things right, like
how do we what's the grading policy?

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Right? Can we invite students into
that? So it's far more expansive,

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and some of my work actually gets
into student leadership in definitive kind of

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formalized roles as well in this school
governance process, and so that's kind of

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some schools are headed in that direction
and some schools are, like, I

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can't even envision what that looks like
beyond a student council that plans prom right

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or or the senior trip or whatever
it is. So I think there's kind

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of a range of what people do
there. But that's kind of my vision

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and where I go to as a
student voice piece. So then it's it's

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safe to say or assume that you're
working with schools to help them refocus re

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shift around bringing in more student voice
as opposed to choice, because choice could

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be part of that, right,
it's like under the umbrella of student voice.

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And so I do want to shift
our conversation too a little bit to

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talk about this justice piece, because
you know, helping schools bring in student

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voice is necessary. Like I said, even in my school around student choice

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through technology, we're noticing still a
gap there, but clearly we all throughout

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private public higher eds you know K
twelve need a wake up call to shift

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around equity and justice. So we've
talked a little bit about your work and

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what schools need to do around rethinking, just bringing in student voice, you

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know, adding opportunities for student leadership
and like you said before, having students

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really be partners in this area specifically, where where do we need to go

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around the work on justice? Yeah, So I think for me, the

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sustainable solution is the processes and structures
that we have in place. So what

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I mean by that is, for
example, for the student governance piece,

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how many opportunities are there for students
to be in a formal government position.

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How many students are on your leadership
team? How many students are on the

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assessment committee or curriculum committee or whatever
the committees are at right? How often

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are student representatives trained to collect data? And I often talk about street data

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from Sin Safia and Jamie Ladugan,
which is excellent book that I highly recommend,

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and like, how do we train
student leaders in those positional leadership places

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to actually go do that work and
be authentic representatives of the students that aren't

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at the table but still deserve the
voice, right, So that's kind of

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part of it. And then from
a pedagogical kind of curriculum development piece,

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there's I do think that that's really
important piece that sometimes we can lose sight

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of in the student voice field,
which is why I like bridging the two.

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The instructional piece is so critically important. But the question is what are

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the structures and processes and tools that
we have in place. So we talk

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briefly about you know, what's the
protocol or the look for is or you

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know, whatever you call them,
the observation rubric that you do on a

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learning walk. How often do you
do learning walks? Are students part of

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the learning walk? Right? And
so all of these pieces, I think

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our processes that you can then once
you haven't in place, get to talk

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about the justice things. So if
we're talking about justice but students aren't actually

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part of the conversation, then how
you know, how authentic are we being

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to the purpose of justice? And
I think justice is intersectional, So it's

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like about the stakeholder diversity in terms
of students, families, teachers, administrators

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right in these spaces. But it's
also the identities that we each carry,

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right, and how representative is that
of our larger school community. It's about

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being able to I think a lot
of my work is around adaptive leadership,

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so I think it's also being able
to figure out what are the adaptive challenges

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that we're facing and treating them as
technical challenges. Right, So adaptive challenges

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require those processes and structures of co
creation to get to the solution. If

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we treat a long standing challenge such
as racism right as a technical solution,

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and we say, oh, we're
just going to do these three pds and

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that will be good, Like,
that's not how that works. So it's

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truly identifying this is an adaptive challenge, and now let's create the structures and

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then go through and use a tool
like doctor street Bridge, as Patrick and

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I adapted One Eye Cult's work to
kind of identify what are the discussion types

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that are happening in our schools?
Right? Are they avoiding these issues?

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Are they kind of polarizing? So
we talk about them and it's like this

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camp, this camp, and then
we're divided constantly we're not like talking.

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Is it just that we're intellectualizing.
So this is very common with white educators,

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right where we're just like, oh, like I listened to I do

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this a lot, Like I listened
to this podcast and then like I got

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this idea, and they're like,
let's try this. But we're disconnected from

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the emotion or the realities, right, which is where the street data comes

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in. Or are we doing what
we need to be doing, which is

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like generative, mobilizing discourse that engages
in the disequilibrium. It treats it as

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an adaptive challenge, and we're imaginating, imaginating, imagining new possibilities, right

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that are engaged and connected to our
emotion as well as our head, so

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we have a head and heart.
So I think it's a lot of pieces,

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right, so structures, but it's
also building that culture that's able to

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tackle those adaptive challenges. First,
I want to mention that I was in

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a district a couple of years ago
as an administrator where the superintendent and building

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level administrators all I don't want to
say we did a book study, but

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there was a lot of work that
came out of street data. So I

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appreciate you bringing that up, and
for the listeners out there, if you

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haven't read Street Data and you're interested, I will definitely link to that book

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in the show notes and the website
for this episode, so you can go

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and get a copy maybe if you're
interested. But really really great work there,

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and I agree, I think honestly, you know, I've reflected on

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this a little bit. I'm gonna
go off on a tangent for a second.

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I've reflected on this a little bit
lately, but you know, throughout

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my career, I guess at times
I've reflected on the fact that when when

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I began my teaching career in New
York City schools and the Bronx, I

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guess I don't know I had enough
of a rational rationalization going in to know

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that, like, I grew up
very differently from the students that I was

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going to be teaching, and quite
honestly, it scared the heck out of

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me. But it also like just
knowing that about me and about that relationship

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that I was going to be striking
with those students, it did. It

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remained top of mind so that it
guided my work. It really drove me

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to use sort of like informal ways
of gathering that street data and just learning

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as much as I could about those
students when you know, I first got

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there in my first year two three
years, and that really helped build relationships.

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It helped, as we've been talking, kind of get students to be

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a little bit more a part of
the process, a little bit more of

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that that partner role. And you
know, looking back, I'm pretty proud

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of the way that I was able
to just know that about me and my

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students going in to know that you
know, it might be rough, it

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might be there might be those like
breakdowns in communication and relationships given the fact

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that, like we're very different,
but it also it also helped in a

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lot of ways too. It just
really helped us, like underget to know

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each other and understand each other better. So when I when I think about

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street data, as you mentioned it
and and in the book, that's kind

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of what I think of, just
learn about your students in ways that are

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not your typical like you know,
formative in summative assessment, you know,

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tests and things like how are you
really going to get to know them?

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When we when I was in that
district where we studied street data, I

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mean we were like literally going out
into the community and and finding the data.

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You know, what are the resources
that are all around us in the

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community that will help us understand the
needs of our community better. End of

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my tangent. I just wanted to
share that. I really, I'm really

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glad you brought that up because it's
such a it's such an important part of

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student voice and and you know,
being more inclusive of the students and really

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just understanding what they need more so
than anything. Unless you had anything to

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say again about the street data and
and the justice piece, I wanted to

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ask you, this is an interesting
term, and so I want to make

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sure that I and the listeners understand
what do you mean by adaptive leadership?

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I really, I really like your
mention of that, and I'm intrigued that

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I want to know more about that. Yeah, so there are complete books

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on this, and so I don't
want to like simplify it too much,

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but basically, adaptive leadership is just
recognizing the need to be adaptive in the

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way that we respond to challenges.
And one of the hallmarks I think is

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this idea for me. Anyways,
the big takeaway is this idea of adaptive

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challenges versus technical challenges. Technical challenges
being things that you can solve immediately with

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like a quick you know, like, for example, some of the things

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that I've seen when we talk about
strategic planning, for example, we're getting

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on to the strategic planning committee,
we're having the conversations to do a root

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cause analysis. Okay, here's the
issue, right, and so whatever we

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come up with. So let's say
that it's some sort of like instruction is

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not meeting the needs of the students
to student data and student assessment results show

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that they're not learning what we need
them to larn whatever. So one approach

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to that is we're going to get
a new curriculum. Fine, but if

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we're not addressed seeing all of the
other stuff, then we're that's it's we're

356
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solving. We're using a technical fix
for an adaptive challenge, right, And

357
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so adaptive leadership is really getting into
like the hard stuff. So sometimes I

358
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have a whole workbook on this I
can share with your listeners if you'd like.

359
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But like thinking about how to diagnose
are we even dealing with an adaptive

360
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challenge can be a challenge itself,
and so being able to look for those

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that could be something where you're just
sitting in a meeting as a leader and

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you're kind of reflecting on like what
is the what are the nonverbal things going

363
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on right now? What do I
think is maybe in someone's head? But

364
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we are avoiding it, we are
not saying it right. It's like the

365
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things that cannot be named, Like
what are those things? So I think

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sometimes it's that simple. Other times
it's you know, we're we're going to

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look for specific things and and we
can see like a mechanism. I think

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often when we talk about justice,
a mechanism that people used to avoid is

369
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to like either rapidly change the conversation
displace the blame, so be like,

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oh, well, you know that's
that's the so we can't do anything about

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00:27:00.279 --> 00:27:03.839
that, So end of conversation,
right, We're just not going to tackle

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the problem, right, something like
that. Sometimes people will make a joke

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to deflect kind of the intensity of
what we're talking about, right, and

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then we that's also a departure.
So looking for things like this is part

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of adaptive leadership work. So we're
diagnosing is it an actual adaptive challenge?

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And then we're using kind of that
shared leadership approach that co creation and partnership

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with students and families to be able
to create a path moving forward together that's

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going to actually sustainably address the challenge
that is adaptive, which is typically very

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long standing. I mean, these
are the things that we're dealing with for

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five, ten, fifteen years,
and we keep going back to the third

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Strategic Plan in ROW being like we're
still working on the same thing. Like

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that's where adaptive leadership comes in.
So are there ways for or what are

383
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the best ways for leaders to reflect
and identify the need to adapt, and

384
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then what are the steps that they
can take to I guess really like start

385
00:28:06.559 --> 00:28:14.359
implementing change and also know how not
to come on too strong, you know

386
00:28:14.359 --> 00:28:18.440
what I mean? Because I think
sometimes leaders they have this like Eureka moment

387
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and they're like, oh my gosh, I just went to this conference and

388
00:28:21.880 --> 00:28:26.119
I learned about X, Y Z
educational topics and we need to do this

389
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now, and you know, then
they come in like too heavy handed.

390
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So I guess t walk us through
it, Like how do they first figure

391
00:28:33.680 --> 00:28:38.799
out that they need to adapt and
tweak what's happening already in their schools?

392
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Where do they go from there,
and how do they avoid the mistakes that

393
00:28:45.880 --> 00:28:52.359
I think some leaders make sometimes and
implementing and actionalizing the change in their schools.

394
00:28:52.160 --> 00:28:56.240
Yeah, so I will just give
you four quick ways to identify,

395
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so I'll try not to go too
deep into each of them. But one

396
00:28:59.759 --> 00:29:03.279
is values, action, alignment activities. So, for example, write down,

397
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like all the things that you do
over the course of a week,

398
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what committees are meeting at a teacher
level, what activities are you doing with

399
00:29:11.359 --> 00:29:15.000
students, what are students engaging in? Right? And then identify what are

400
00:29:15.039 --> 00:29:18.240
the values that you hold. So
a lot of times schools already have this,

401
00:29:18.400 --> 00:29:23.119
sometimes grade teams or departments have this, but then we're looking for alignment

402
00:29:23.200 --> 00:29:26.200
there, right, So like,
are we actually doing the things we value?

403
00:29:26.240 --> 00:29:30.519
If we value and we have a
diversity, equity inclusion statement for example

404
00:29:30.519 --> 00:29:33.880
on our website, like what are
the actions we're taking, what are the

405
00:29:33.880 --> 00:29:36.759
committees that exist, how often are
we meeting, what are the hours or

406
00:29:36.799 --> 00:29:41.400
minutes spent on these activities compared to
other activities? And oftentimes like that will

407
00:29:41.440 --> 00:29:45.039
indicate that there is an adaptive challenge
at play, right, We're not actually

408
00:29:45.079 --> 00:29:51.279
aligned. Another one is similar a
competing commitment activity. So in all of

409
00:29:51.279 --> 00:29:53.400
these I just want to name.
These come from Higfitz, Grashaw, and

410
00:29:53.440 --> 00:29:56.880
Linski's book that I can't remember the
name of. It's an adaptive leadership book,

411
00:29:56.880 --> 00:30:00.359
but I can send it to you
in a LINKI be like to link

412
00:30:00.359 --> 00:30:02.720
it in the show notes. But
this is all coming from them. So

413
00:30:03.279 --> 00:30:07.559
competing commitment activity. Ask stakeholders like
teachers, would I think would love to

414
00:30:07.599 --> 00:30:11.160
do this. I had someone run
this as the coach of a team and

415
00:30:11.200 --> 00:30:15.559
she was like, whoa just the
results were nuts. So teachers have so

416
00:30:15.680 --> 00:30:18.079
many competing commitments, ask them to
list them out and then put them up

417
00:30:18.079 --> 00:30:21.759
like we usually use like post its
or something, or you could use a

418
00:30:21.799 --> 00:30:25.480
digital you know, post it board
like padlet or something, and then just

419
00:30:25.519 --> 00:30:30.279
say, like, you know,
what commitments do we have individually collectively which

420
00:30:30.359 --> 00:30:33.720
compete or directly contradict? And then
how have we been dealing with them?

421
00:30:33.839 --> 00:30:37.599
So like which one wins? Right? And oftentimes it's not the things that

422
00:30:37.640 --> 00:30:42.000
we holistically like want to do if
we were talking about like our goals of

423
00:30:42.039 --> 00:30:45.839
our school, right. So again
that alignment piece, the unearthing the things

424
00:30:45.839 --> 00:30:48.720
that must not be named activity is
just having people, you know, you

425
00:30:48.720 --> 00:30:53.160
could have people just journal so you
know, this happened in this moment,

426
00:30:53.200 --> 00:30:55.880
in this meeting, at the end
of the meeting, have them to do

427
00:30:55.920 --> 00:30:57.720
this five minute reflection. This happened. Here's what I thought, Here's what

428
00:30:57.759 --> 00:31:02.200
I actually did or said. So
you know this person said X y Z,

429
00:31:02.720 --> 00:31:06.200
I thought, oh my god,
that's racist. I actually said absolutely

430
00:31:06.240 --> 00:31:08.240
nothing, and you know what I
mean or whatever it is, and then

431
00:31:08.480 --> 00:31:12.920
just kind of co create like what
is unspeakable in this school, in this

432
00:31:14.039 --> 00:31:17.680
team meeting, whatever. And then
a fourth one is identifying avoidance. So

433
00:31:17.680 --> 00:31:21.119
that's that thing where it's like,
what are the things that divert attention,

434
00:31:21.759 --> 00:31:26.079
what are the things that displace responsibility? And so that might be you know,

435
00:31:26.119 --> 00:31:29.759
all the things that we went through
as potential examples for like making a

436
00:31:29.839 --> 00:31:32.519
joke, denying the problem exists,
this is the parent's issue, right,

437
00:31:33.000 --> 00:31:37.359
Any of those things are kind of
like we have a culture problem as a

438
00:31:37.400 --> 00:31:41.440
school or a district that is an
adaptive challenge. So that's kind of how

439
00:31:41.480 --> 00:31:45.920
those are four quick ways that would
I would do that, and then how

440
00:31:45.960 --> 00:31:51.000
to actually go about solving it.
So one of the important like things that

441
00:31:51.039 --> 00:31:56.079
they name all the adaptive leadership scholars
in high Fitzcraschawandlinsky very specifically talk about the

442
00:31:56.119 --> 00:32:02.960
things that we need to get to
are are change in our habits or our

443
00:32:04.039 --> 00:32:08.319
loyalties or our beliefs. That is
really interesting to me because when we do

444
00:32:08.359 --> 00:32:12.519
a root cause analysis, for example, this is another way to figure out

445
00:32:12.519 --> 00:32:15.839
like if you actually are getting to
the root of the adaptive challenge. If

446
00:32:15.839 --> 00:32:19.960
you don't end up as like this
is a belief we hold, then you're

447
00:32:20.079 --> 00:32:22.599
you're not deep enough. So if
you're like, oh, the curriculum just

448
00:32:22.640 --> 00:32:25.720
sucks, it's like we're not there
yet. But if it is, I,

449
00:32:25.839 --> 00:32:30.960
as an educator or we as a
team believe that this challenging curriculum we

450
00:32:31.039 --> 00:32:34.759
love our students to be able to
can't do it, like they're just never

451
00:32:34.799 --> 00:32:36.759
going to be able to do it. That's like a deep belief, Like

452
00:32:36.880 --> 00:32:39.240
let's let's go with that. Or
if we give students the ability to have

453
00:32:39.359 --> 00:32:43.519
voice and choice, I think they're
going to make the wrong decisions. Right,

454
00:32:43.559 --> 00:32:45.440
that's a belief I hold, and
now we can unearth it. Once

455
00:32:45.480 --> 00:32:49.039
we get to that, that's the
best way to move forward. And like

456
00:32:49.039 --> 00:32:52.880
I said before, it's collective it's
with the students in partnership with the families.

457
00:32:53.880 --> 00:32:59.759
That's great and I really appreciate and
I so love that you gave us

458
00:32:59.759 --> 00:33:05.599
those ways for leaders to to get
to know whether or not they're really facing

459
00:33:05.720 --> 00:33:13.440
something that is that kind of adaptive
change that needs to happen to I don't

460
00:33:13.480 --> 00:33:15.240
want to say turn things around because
that sounds like we got to like throw

461
00:33:15.279 --> 00:33:19.000
the baby out with the bath water, but you know what I mean,

462
00:33:19.160 --> 00:33:22.519
like make change in their school or
district. So you know, that's what

463
00:33:22.000 --> 00:33:25.720
this show is all about, right
helping educators grow their impact as instructional leaders.

464
00:33:25.759 --> 00:33:29.640
And let's face it, right now, in in a lot of schools,

465
00:33:29.680 --> 00:33:34.759
we're still catching up on some of
these things that we talked about,

466
00:33:34.759 --> 00:33:39.759
whether it's you know, including and
incorporating more student voice, really harnessing our

467
00:33:39.799 --> 00:33:45.480
efforts and and putting more of a
focus around h you know, justice and

468
00:33:45.480 --> 00:33:50.240
and issues around justice, because there
are a lot of them, and uh,

469
00:33:50.519 --> 00:33:52.559
you know, all the all the
things that you do, and I

470
00:33:52.599 --> 00:33:55.319
know that schools out there are really
fortunate that you're able to help them through

471
00:33:55.359 --> 00:33:59.559
some of these things. And leaders
like the ones that are you know in

472
00:33:59.559 --> 00:34:04.920
my audio and are listening to this
podcast right now. So of course I

473
00:34:04.960 --> 00:34:08.199
want you to let my listeners know
how they can connect with you and continue

474
00:34:08.239 --> 00:34:13.519
to learn from you and with you
about all these really important topics. But

475
00:34:13.760 --> 00:34:20.039
also please let us know how a
school or district might even contact you to

476
00:34:20.119 --> 00:34:24.960
consult with them if they want to
learn more about adaptive leadership and change and

477
00:34:25.039 --> 00:34:30.360
bringing in student voice and all these
really critical and crucial topics and education.

478
00:34:31.519 --> 00:34:35.480
Absolutely, thank you so much for
this opportunity. So I would say the

479
00:34:35.519 --> 00:34:39.639
best way is go to my website
that's lindsaybethlions dot com and I have a

480
00:34:39.679 --> 00:34:44.039
podcast that gets put on there,
a ton of free resources that get put

481
00:34:44.079 --> 00:34:45.599
on there. You can join my
email list. There, there's I think

482
00:34:45.639 --> 00:34:49.760
a free curriculum audit. There,
there's a bunch of stuff. There's also

483
00:34:49.800 --> 00:34:52.079
a please to grab spot of my
calendar. So if you have twenty minutes

484
00:34:52.079 --> 00:34:54.960
and you're like, I just want
to quick brainstorm, like this is one

485
00:34:55.000 --> 00:34:58.960
of the favorite parts of my day. I just love brainstorming. So if

486
00:34:58.960 --> 00:35:00.760
you have no money to be budget, no worries, just chat with me,

487
00:35:01.079 --> 00:35:05.679
like we'll pretend we're drinking coffee together
at a cafe. This is like

488
00:35:05.719 --> 00:35:07.880
the work I love. So I
think that's probably the easiest. And then

489
00:35:07.880 --> 00:35:10.800
if there is a particular problem,
feel free to reach out to me if

490
00:35:10.800 --> 00:35:14.440
you're like I have this question,
I just I just need a quick email

491
00:35:14.480 --> 00:35:17.559
response or resource. Hello at Lindsaybethlions
dot com is the best way to do

492
00:35:17.679 --> 00:35:22.920
that. That's great. What's the
podcast called I don't know if you mentioned.

493
00:35:23.159 --> 00:35:28.519
Yeah, it's called Time for Teachership. So teachership being the intersection of

494
00:35:28.760 --> 00:35:32.920
leadership and teaching in the classroom.
I may have mentioned that actually way back

495
00:35:32.920 --> 00:35:37.840
when in the introduction. But in
case, in case the listeners forgot Time

496
00:35:37.880 --> 00:35:42.559
for Teachership, go give it a
listen. Head to Lindsay's website find out

497
00:35:42.559 --> 00:35:45.079
more about her schedule a call.
It's free, right, I think you

498
00:35:45.119 --> 00:35:49.840
said, so if you need to
chat around the problem and you're not sure

499
00:35:50.599 --> 00:35:55.119
if moving forward is something that you
need yet, give her a call let

500
00:35:55.159 --> 00:35:59.000
her know. So in the show
notes, like I said, we're going

501
00:35:59.039 --> 00:36:02.679
to link to the street Data book
and other resources that Lindsay mentioned, as

502
00:36:02.719 --> 00:36:07.440
well as of course her contact information
and her website. Really love learning with

503
00:36:07.480 --> 00:36:10.519
you and from you, Lindsay,
So thank you so much for your time

504
00:36:10.599 --> 00:36:15.519
here and for coming on to this
podcast episode. I really appreciate it.

505
00:36:15.920 --> 00:36:22.360
Thank you. This is so much
fun. Well that's it for this episode.

506
00:36:22.679 --> 00:36:27.000
Thank you so much for listening.
If you haven't done so yet,

507
00:36:27.199 --> 00:36:30.360
don't forget to subscribe to this show
on your favorite podcast app. If you

508
00:36:30.519 --> 00:36:34.719
enjoy the content covered on this show, I want to ask you to do

509
00:36:34.880 --> 00:36:38.440
this one thing for me. Please
share it. The biggest favor you could

510
00:36:38.519 --> 00:36:43.559
ever do for me is to please
let others know about what I'm doing and

511
00:36:43.599 --> 00:36:47.559
how I'm helping educators grow their impact
as instructional leaders. I hope you can

512
00:36:47.559 --> 00:36:52.400
share this podcast with other educators,
leaders, friends, or anyone you think

513
00:36:52.519 --> 00:36:57.920
would love listening and learning. If
you're interested in leaving a positive rating and

514
00:36:57.960 --> 00:37:00.599
review of this show, links to
do so so or always in the show

515
00:37:00.639 --> 00:37:06.119
notes for every episode. For more
information about me or this show, and

516
00:37:06.199 --> 00:37:09.519
to access the great content that I
share, please visit my website at Leader

517
00:37:09.519 --> 00:37:14.920
of Learning dot com. That's where
you can find my online courses, YouTube

518
00:37:15.000 --> 00:37:17.960
channel, blog, how to connect
with me on social media, and even

519
00:37:19.000 --> 00:37:22.639
ways that you can support the show, like donating or purchasing Leader of Learning

520
00:37:22.639 --> 00:37:28.800
merchandise. Thanks again, and remember
No matter who you are or where you

521
00:37:28.880 --> 00:37:30.280
are, you are a leader of
learning.