Empowering Justice and Elevating Student Voice with Lindsay Lyons

0:00 I like radically right. It's a radical view. I see students as my colleagues. I am in partnership with them, right, And that's the case for a lot of educators. It is a big departure, though, from a lot of how we were educated. Welcome to the Leader of Learning podcast. I'm your host, doctor Dan Krenis, and this is where I help educators grow their impact as instructional leaders because my research and leadership experiences have led me to understand that someone like you, regardless of your role or your title, can have a tremendous impact on your organization. I chat with inspiring guests who are truly making an impact as instructional leaders. Whether this is your first time listening or you've come back for more, I hope you've subscribed to this show on your preferred podcast app so you don't miss any of the great episodes, topics, or guests. Anyway, I'm so glad you've tuned in.

0:55 Now let's get started. Welcome back Leader of Learning to episode one sixty four of the podcast. First and foremost, I want to wish you a happy holiday season. If you're like me and you're listening from the US, Happy Thanksgiving as we just celebrated that holiday a couple of weeks ago, and I hope you're gearing up for an amazing holiday season as Hanukkah and Christmas and all of the winter holidays are rapidly approaching. I will have a couple of new episodes leading up to the holidays, starting with this one. In episode one sixty four, we have a remarkable guest joining us. Lindsay Lyons is an educational justice coach and expert in creating feminist, anti racist curricula, and she'll be sharing her insights and experiences with us. In a very eye opening conversation, Lindsay sizes the crucial role of instructional processes and tools in promoting justice in education. She highlights the needs for structures and processes that involves students in conversations about justice and the significance of stakeholder diversity and representation at the heart of it all. Lindsay reveals the power of adaptive leadership in addressing these kinds of challenges,

2:28 including racism. So I am very excited for you to hear this interview and conversation with Lindsay coming up. After these messages, we'll get right to it. Welcome back, Leader of Learning. I have an exciting guest with me this episode, Lindsay Lyons. And Lindsay is an educational justice coach who helps schools and districts co create feminist, anti racist curricula that challenges, affirms, and aspires all students. She's a former New Yorker the public school teacher. That's right, we have that in common. I forgot about that. She holds a PhD in leadership and change. She's the founder of the blog and podcast called Time for Teachership. She believes the secret sauce of educational equality is student voice. That's really refreshing to hear. I really appreciate that, Lindsay, so welcome to the show. If there's anything that I missed about who you are, where you are, and what you do, please fill us in. I think it's hard as a listener of a podcast, it's hard to kind of tell who the person is if you can't visually see them.

3:29 So I'll just describe myself, especially because I'm in the intersectional justice space of educational coaching, that I'm a white, cist, gendered woman. I live on the indigenous lands of the Massachusetts and Nimuck and the pop tuckets and everything that I do or stay here today is basically not from my brain, right, it's from like the collaboration that we always have as educators with others and learning with those who are contemporary to us and those who have come before us. I just want to kind of put that acknowledgment out there. Appreciate that so I know that well, first, well, I want to let the listeners know that you and I first got connected through our entrepreneurial or entrepreneurial ventures. And I know that at this point, you do a lot of work, as I'm going to say, consultant, correct me if there's a better term to use, but consulting with schools around this idea of really and again correct me if I'm wrong, like retooling and revamping, rethinking their curriculum around it sounds like a lot of different topics ranging from anti racism and feminism.

4:33 And you mentioned actually just before we hit record here that a lot of the work that you're doing is really more like cultural you know, working on the culture and climate in the building. So let's start with that. I guess I'm just wondering, like generally, and then we can kind of get more specific from there. What are you seeing in you know, November December of twenty twenty three. When it comes to where schools, especially public school are at with their curriculum and in what areas are they really seeking that help with, Oh my gosh, what a fantastic question. So I think that a lot of folks at the leadership level are ready for the curriculum to be different, right, And I often see this in like US history courses have been by far the most popular. I mean I am an ela literacy and history teacher by practice, like in my teaching days, so that is my area of profession. I hesitate to use the word expertise. I never feel like I'm an expert in anything, but I think, you know, that's where people gravitate to ask me questions about. But then when we dig into it, it's like, are we actually ready for that? And so one of the things that I kind of take people through is like, well, we have to first have one a mindset on the part of all of the staff involved of partnership with the research and student voice. Research called radical collegiality.

5:55 So I like radically right, it's a radical view. I see students as my colleagues. I'm in partnership with them, right, And that's the case for a lot of educators. It is a big departure though, from a lot of how we were educated. So there are some teachers who are like, you know what, no, you listen to me because I have the degree and that's it, right, So if we don't have that mindset, that's like the very first place we start, and then the next piece is really building that sense of belonging, that culture building and then starting to layer in the pedagogical practices and just be like, Okay, do we have student discussion? Do we have student voice? Is this kind of the way we run our class? Okay? Now we might be ready, And I think there are folks who are ready to just jump right in at the curriculum level, and we design the curriculum in a way that kind of does all of these other things. So teachers are like, WHOA, if I give students voice in that space, you know the project is super cool and co created and awesome. Yeah, I can totally see how it would be easier for me to let go because I've built it in that way. So I think there's two approaches, and it's a mixed bag of like people who are ready for the work at different entry points. I want to ask you an opinion question because I think you're kind of the perfect person to ask this, and I'm not trying to throw my school or any of the teachers under the bus, but I will preface this question by saying that in my role as a digital learning coach, one of the things that I realized recently through some data and evidence that we discovered based on a teacher technology survey that the staff

7:26 at my school took, was that, unfortunately, one of the areas where the teachers self admitted that they kind of struggle in is providing opportunities for student choice through technology. And so I really love that I have you on talking about this now, because what I want to ask you is your opinion of how are we still in twenty twenty three not as good as we need to be with providing students choice and, like you said, really giving them opportunities, the students opportunities to be more partners in their own education and you know, basically like, how do they have more of a seat at the table of their own learning? Yeah? Oh my gosh, So as a former tech integration coach, I am like with you on this and I've seen the exacting things, so I have to say that I think about this in three kind of categories, the how to use tech for and generally write any practice of pedagogy for student choice. So I see like content, process, and product. So one is like, what are the forms of content of using UDIL language, right, Like multiple multiple means of oh now I'm forgetting it right, multiple means of representation there we go and so and then multiple means of expression being kind of like the product, and then the process being somewhere along the way. So content would look like, you know, I might put together a video, a podcast, episode, and an article right that

9:00 all convey the same information. So I'm kind of using this multiple media sources to be able to share with the students. I could also make it kind of engaging, which I think gets a little into process. I could you know, use some different apps that like ed puzzle right that kind of like make it interactive or all these sorts of things. The process piece allows people to use tools like Coggle or different things where you can like use some mind mapping that are digital or you could use paper right, a no tech option or you know, it's like how do you learn and kind of put the pieces together best? And then my favorite is the product and that is typically how I will actually design units with folks. So it'll be like, Okay, what's the end goal, what's the driving question of the unit? Like what's that really interesting thing that as adults we love our subject and we're constantly talking about it with other adults, like this is like something we're grappling with.

9:48 There's no right answer, right. And from there the next step is like what's what's the product, Like what is the project that students are working on, and what are they going to like share with an authentic audience and make it meaningful and like they can personalize it in whatever way they want, right, whether that's a content sub specialization, whether that's like the way they present it. So I think there are so many options there. I used to do a lot of media stuff, so I was into like making documentaries with my students. I've done a lot of workshops on like how to create podcasts as your kind of summative assessment. So there's a lot of different ways that we can incorporate tech and like how you present beyond just you know, I'm typing a paper on Google Docs or I'm making a presentation in Google slides.

10:28 This podcast is a proud member of the Teach Better Podcast Network, Better Today, Better Tomorrow, and the podcast to get you there. Explore more podcasts at www dot Teach Better Podcastnetwork dot com. Now let's get back to the episode. Yes, so this is this is going to sound funny because I know this is this is what you do, and of course if there wasn't a need for it, you wouldn't be doing it. But like, how comes schools? I think you mentioned this before for a little bit about leadership, like they want to make change, But how are schools and districts having a hard time sort of auditing or analyzing their own curriculum for these gaps in you know, well, let's just take student choice for example, that maybe they their teachers haven't quite figured out how to give more opportunities and turn more of that responsibility for learning over to students. Yes, oh my gosh, yes, Okay, So when I think that there are not always I mean they are out there, but maybe not in the hands of leaders, Like there aren't always great tools that integrate all the things, right, So we might have a tool like a walkthrough tool or you know, an observation tool or whatever very brick that prioritizes some of those aspects but not others.

11:48 And so if you use student voice and student co creation and partnership as kind of the centerpiece and then build out from there, well, what does co creation and student voice look like in assessment? What does it look like in you know, student discussion, that kind of thing. I think that's a that's an opportunity for reflection. Like if you create yourself among like the leadership, the team or the staff, right, and you say like, well, what are we actually looking for when we go in a classroom and you do these walks and you kind of like norm around this stuff. I think that's part of it. And I think the other part is that there is such hesitation, particularly when we talk about like US history or ELA and what books are we choosing? What stories are we telling? Right? And when we have legislation at a national level, right, that's like anti critical race theory and right, all of these different pieces that people are contending with as they're trying to teach truth. Right, there's like all sorts of things that folks. I mean, even in Massachusetts, I've had leaders say, well, actually, my district, like they're they're really into the rah rah like diversity, equity, inclusion. We put up a nice poster about it, but when it comes down to it, we're not actually ready to take the action steps. And while that individual leader will say hey, I'm interested, the district, maybe their bosses or you know whatever, people looking at the politics of everything or saying actually, we're not ready. One I think there's a kind of a concern. I think it's about where are we going in our brains, right, Like who are we thinking and anticipating will complain?

13:09 And often those are people with more institutional power, you know, they are the people who have more access to complain. They are typically the voices that we listen to and maybe even not take a step forward because we're anticipating that even if it might might not happen. And then another piece is like there's there's just not enough information about like well what was this would this actually look like? So what I actually walk through with someone who might be resistant to the idea even themselves, a family member, right, a leader, a teacher, whoever it is, And we say, well, actually, here's what this process looks like. Often the result is they're saying, oh, so the students can choose the thing that they're studying, right, You're not like forcing them to like take this position or analyze this whatever. It's like.

13:52 No, I'm teaching them to be a critical thinker, right, I'm teaching them to analyze power dynamics. I'm teaching them like some really important skills. And that's what it looks like to create. And so I think lack of information and also fear of reprisal, but fear of reprisal from like maybe not the people that we should be prioritizing in are planning exactly right. Yeah, And as you were talking, I was thinking we should probably back up a little bit and let's talk a little bit about what student choice is. You mentioned process and product and content before, which makes me think about differentiated instruction a lot, but you know, student choices is part it could be part of that. What I think of student choice through technology, As I mentioned before, I think a lot of people would would think, Okay, giving students an opportunity to prove mastery or lack thereof of the content by using technology to maybe you know, create a slide show or like you were saying before, maybe some content like they podcast or something. So is that what we're talking about or what else can you shed light up? When it comes to like, actually, what student choice is? I love discussion, So I think one of the things I try to differentiate is the difference between student choice and student voice. And so choice to me is like you know, a typical choice board or something like Okay, we're going to do a do now you can do this question or this question right or something like that.

15:16 So that's like kind of forced choice. So we have like these options you can choose from these. A kind of hybrid between that and voice might be like you can choose option A B or create your own, which is category CE right, And so sometimes we see that blend. I think for voice, there's a definition that I'm going to paraphrase because they don't remember it exactly, But from the student voice field, that's basically like student voice is giving students the option to make decisions about anything that impacts them, right, And so that's a big category. So from what we eat in a lunch room and how we run the class and what they're studying, what questions. They're grappling with what pedagogies they use, how do they work in groups or individually?

15:58 Like all the things right, like how do we what's the grading policy? Right? Can we invite students into that? So it's far more expansive, and some of my work actually gets into student leadership in definitive kind of formalized roles as well in this school governance process, and so that's kind of some schools are headed in that direction and some schools are, like, I can't even envision what that looks like beyond a student council that plans prom right or or the senior trip or whatever it is. So I think there's kind of a range of what people do there. But that's kind of my vision and where I go to as a student voice piece. So then it's it's safe to say or assume that you're working with schools to help them refocus re shift around bringing in more student voice as opposed to choice, because choice could be part of that, right, it's like under the umbrella of student voice.

16:56 And so I do want to shift our conversation too a little bit to talk about this justice piece, because you know, helping schools bring in student voice is necessary. Like I said, even in my school around student choice through technology, we're noticing still a gap there, but clearly we all throughout private public higher eds you know K twelve need a wake up call to shift around equity and justice. So we've talked a little bit about your work and what schools need to do around rethinking, just bringing in student voice, you know, adding opportunities for student leadership and like you said before, having students really be partners in this area specifically, where where do we need to go around the work on justice? Yeah, So I think for me, the sustainable solution is the processes and structures that we have in place. So what I mean by that is, for example, for the student governance piece, how many opportunities are there for students to be in a formal government position.

18:18 How many students are on your leadership team? How many students are on the assessment committee or curriculum committee or whatever the committees are at right? How often are student representatives trained to collect data? And I often talk about street data from Sin Safia and Jamie Ladugan, which is excellent book that I highly recommend, and like, how do we train student leaders in those positional leadership places to actually go do that work and be authentic representatives of the students that aren't at the table but still deserve the voice, right, So that's kind of part of it. And then from a pedagogical kind of curriculum development piece, there's I do think that that's really important piece that sometimes we can lose sight of in the student voice field, which is why I like bridging the two.

19:03 The instructional piece is so critically important. But the question is what are the structures and processes and tools that we have in place. So we talk briefly about you know, what's the protocol or the look for is or you know, whatever you call them, the observation rubric that you do on a learning walk. How often do you do learning walks? Are students part of the learning walk? Right? And so all of these pieces, I think our processes that you can then once you haven't in place, get to talk about the justice things. So if we're talking about justice but students aren't actually part of the conversation, then how you know, how authentic are we being to the purpose of justice? And I think justice is intersectional, So it's like about the stakeholder diversity in terms of students, families, teachers, administrators right in these spaces. But it's also the identities that we each carry, right, and how representative is that of our larger school community. It's about being able to I think a lot of my work is around adaptive leadership, so I think it's also being able to figure out what are the adaptive challenges that we're facing and treating them as technical challenges. Right, So adaptive challenges require those processes and structures of co creation to get to the solution. If we treat a long standing challenge such as racism right as a technical solution, and we say, oh, we're just going to do these three pds and that will be good, Like, that's not how that works. So it's truly identifying this is an adaptive challenge, and now let's create the structures and then go through and use a tool like doctor street Bridge, as Patrick and I adapted One Eye Cult's work to kind of identify what are the discussion types

20:37 that are happening in our schools? Right? Are they avoiding these issues? Are they kind of polarizing? So we talk about them and it's like this camp, this camp, and then we're divided constantly we're not like talking. Is it just that we're intellectualizing. So this is very common with white educators, right where we're just like, oh, like I listened to I do this a lot, Like I listened to this podcast and then like I got this idea, and they're like, let's try this. But we're disconnected from the emotion or the realities, right, which is where the street data comes in. Or are we doing what we need to be doing, which is like generative, mobilizing discourse that engages in the disequilibrium. It treats it as an adaptive challenge, and we're imaginating, imaginating, imagining new possibilities, right that are engaged and connected to our emotion as well as our head, so we have a head and heart. So I think it's a lot of pieces, right, so structures, but it's also building that culture that's able to tackle those adaptive challenges. First, I want to mention that I was in a district a couple of years ago as an administrator where the superintendent and building level administrators all I don't want to say we did a book study, but there was a lot of work that came out of street data. So I appreciate you bringing that up, and for the listeners out there, if you haven't read Street Data and you're interested, I will definitely link to that book in the show notes and the website for this episode, so you can go and get a copy maybe if you're interested. But really really great work there, and I agree, I think honestly, you know, I've reflected on

22:10 this a little bit. I'm gonna go off on a tangent for a second. I've reflected on this a little bit lately, but you know, throughout my career, I guess at times I've reflected on the fact that when when I began my teaching career in New York City schools and the Bronx, I guess I don't know I had enough of a rational rationalization going in to know that, like, I grew up very differently from the students that I was going to be teaching, and quite honestly, it scared the heck out of me. But it also like just knowing that about me and about that relationship that I was going to be striking with those students, it did. It remained top of mind so that it guided my work. It really drove me to use sort of like informal ways of gathering that street data and just learning as much as I could about those students when you know, I first got there in my first year two three years, and that really helped build relationships.

23:14 It helped, as we've been talking, kind of get students to be a little bit more a part of the process, a little bit more of that that partner role. And you know, looking back, I'm pretty proud of the way that I was able to just know that about me and my students going in to know that you know, it might be rough, it might be there might be those like breakdowns in communication and relationships given the fact that, like we're very different, but it also it also helped in a lot of ways too. It just really helped us, like underget to know each other and understand each other better. So when I when I think about street data, as you mentioned it and and in the book, that's kind of what I think of, just learn about your students in ways that are not your typical like you know, formative in summative assessment, you know, tests and things like how are you really going to get to know them?

24:11 When we when I was in that district where we studied street data, I mean we were like literally going out into the community and and finding the data. You know, what are the resources that are all around us in the community that will help us understand the needs of our community better. End of my tangent. I just wanted to share that. I really, I'm really glad you brought that up because it's such a it's such an important part of student voice and and you know, being more inclusive of the students and really just understanding what they need more so than anything. Unless you had anything to say again about the street data and and the justice piece, I wanted to ask you, this is an interesting term, and so I want to make sure that I and the listeners understand what do you mean by adaptive leadership?

25:00 I really, I really like your mention of that, and I'm intrigued that I want to know more about that. Yeah, so there are complete books on this, and so I don't want to like simplify it too much, but basically, adaptive leadership is just recognizing the need to be adaptive in the way that we respond to challenges. And one of the hallmarks I think is this idea for me. Anyways, the big takeaway is this idea of adaptive challenges versus technical challenges. Technical challenges being things that you can solve immediately with like a quick you know, like, for example, some of the things that I've seen when we talk about strategic planning, for example, we're getting on to the strategic planning committee, we're having the conversations to do a root cause analysis. Okay, here's the issue, right, and so whatever we come up with. So let's say that it's some sort of like instruction is not meeting the needs of the students to student data and student assessment results show that they're not learning what we need them to larn whatever. So one approach to that is we're going to get a new curriculum. Fine, but if we're not addressed seeing all of the other stuff, then we're that's it's we're solving. We're using a technical fix for an adaptive challenge, right, And so adaptive leadership is really getting into like the hard stuff. So sometimes I have a whole workbook on this I can share with your listeners if you'd like.

26:15 But like thinking about how to diagnose are we even dealing with an adaptive challenge can be a challenge itself, and so being able to look for those that could be something where you're just sitting in a meeting as a leader and you're kind of reflecting on like what is the what are the nonverbal things going on right now? What do I think is maybe in someone's head? But we are avoiding it, we are not saying it right. It's like the things that cannot be named, Like what are those things? So I think sometimes it's that simple. Other times it's you know, we're we're going to look for specific things and and we can see like a mechanism. I think often when we talk about justice, a mechanism that people used to avoid is to like either rapidly change the conversation displace the blame, so be like, oh, well, you know that's that's the so we can't do anything about that, So end of conversation, right, We're just not going to tackle the problem, right, something like that. Sometimes people will make a joke to deflect kind of the intensity of what we're talking about, right, and then we that's also a departure. So looking for things like this is part of adaptive leadership work. So we're diagnosing is it an actual adaptive challenge?

27:17 And then we're using kind of that shared leadership approach that co creation and partnership with students and families to be able to create a path moving forward together that's going to actually sustainably address the challenge that is adaptive, which is typically very long standing. I mean, these are the things that we're dealing with for five, ten, fifteen years, and we keep going back to the third Strategic Plan in ROW being like we're still working on the same thing. Like that's where adaptive leadership comes in. So are there ways for or what are the best ways for leaders to reflect and identify the need to adapt, and then what are the steps that they can take to I guess really like start implementing change and also know how not to come on too strong, you know what I mean? Because I think sometimes leaders they have this like Eureka moment and they're like, oh my gosh, I just went to this conference and I learned about X, Y Z educational topics and we need to do this now, and you know, then they come in like too heavy handed.

28:29 So I guess t walk us through it, Like how do they first figure out that they need to adapt and tweak what's happening already in their schools? Where do they go from there, and how do they avoid the mistakes that I think some leaders make sometimes and implementing and actionalizing the change in their schools. Yeah, so I will just give you four quick ways to identify, so I'll try not to go too deep into each of them. But one is values, action, alignment activities. So, for example, write down, like all the things that you do over the course of a week, what committees are meeting at a teacher level, what activities are you doing with students, what are students engaging in? Right? And then identify what are the values that you hold. So a lot of times schools already have this, sometimes grade teams or departments have this, but then we're looking for alignment there, right, So like, are we actually doing the things we value?

29:26 If we value and we have a diversity, equity inclusion statement for example on our website, like what are the actions we're taking, what are the committees that exist, how often are we meeting, what are the hours or minutes spent on these activities compared to other activities? And oftentimes like that will indicate that there is an adaptive challenge at play, right, We're not actually aligned. Another one is similar a competing commitment activity. So in all of these I just want to name. These come from Higfitz, Grashaw, and Linski's book that I can't remember the name of. It's an adaptive leadership book, but I can send it to you in a LINKI be like to link it in the show notes. But this is all coming from them. So competing commitment activity. Ask stakeholders like teachers, would I think would love to do this. I had someone run this as the coach of a team and she was like, whoa just the results were nuts. So teachers have so many competing commitments, ask them to list them out and then put them up like we usually use like post its or something, or you could use a digital you know, post it board like padlet or something, and then just say, like, you know, what commitments do we have individually collectively which compete or directly contradict? And then how have we been dealing with them?

30:33 So like which one wins? Right? And oftentimes it's not the things that we holistically like want to do if we were talking about like our goals of our school, right. So again that alignment piece, the unearthing the things that must not be named activity is just having people, you know, you could have people just journal so you know, this happened in this moment, in this meeting, at the end of the meeting, have them to do this five minute reflection. This happened. Here's what I thought, Here's what I actually did or said. So you know this person said X y Z, I thought, oh my god, that's racist. I actually said absolutely nothing, and you know what I mean or whatever it is, and then just kind of co create like what is unspeakable in this school, in this team meeting, whatever. And then a fourth one is identifying avoidance. So that's that thing where it's like, what are the things that divert attention, what are the things that displace responsibility? And so that might be you know, all the things that we went through as potential examples for like making a joke, denying the problem exists, this is the parent's issue, right, Any of those things are kind of like we have a culture problem as a school or a district that is an adaptive challenge. So that's kind of how those are four quick ways that would I would do that, and then how to actually go about solving it. So one of the important like things that they name all the adaptive leadership scholars in high Fitzcraschawandlinsky very specifically talk about the things that we need to get to are are change in our habits or our

32:04 loyalties or our beliefs. That is really interesting to me because when we do a root cause analysis, for example, this is another way to figure out like if you actually are getting to the root of the adaptive challenge. If you don't end up as like this is a belief we hold, then you're you're not deep enough. So if you're like, oh, the curriculum just sucks, it's like we're not there yet. But if it is, I, as an educator or we as a team believe that this challenging curriculum we love our students to be able to can't do it, like they're just never going to be able to do it. That's like a deep belief, Like let's let's go with that. Or if we give students the ability to have voice and choice, I think they're going to make the wrong decisions. Right, that's a belief I hold, and now we can unearth it. Once we get to that, that's the best way to move forward. And like I said before, it's collective it's with the students in partnership with the families.

32:53 That's great and I really appreciate and I so love that you gave us those ways for leaders to to get to know whether or not they're really facing something that is that kind of adaptive change that needs to happen to I don't want to say turn things around because that sounds like we got to like throw the baby out with the bath water, but you know what I mean, like make change in their school or district. So you know, that's what this show is all about, right helping educators grow their impact as instructional leaders. And let's face it, right now, in in a lot of schools, we're still catching up on some of these things that we talked about, whether it's you know, including and incorporating more student voice, really harnessing our efforts and and putting more of a focus around h you know, justice and and issues around justice, because there are a lot of them, and uh, you know, all the all the things that you do, and I know that schools out there are really fortunate that you're able to help them through some of these things. And leaders like the ones that are you know in my audio and are listening to this podcast right now. So of course I want you to let my listeners know how they can connect with you and continue to learn from you and with you about all these really important topics. But also please let us know how a school or district might even contact you to consult with them if they want to learn more about adaptive leadership and change and

34:25 bringing in student voice and all these really critical and crucial topics and education. Absolutely, thank you so much for this opportunity. So I would say the best way is go to my website that's lindsaybethlions dot com and I have a podcast that gets put on there, a ton of free resources that get put on there. You can join my email list. There, there's I think a free curriculum audit. There, there's a bunch of stuff. There's also a please to grab spot of my calendar. So if you have twenty minutes and you're like, I just want to quick brainstorm, like this is one of the favorite parts of my day. I just love brainstorming. So if you have no money to be budget, no worries, just chat with me, like we'll pretend we're drinking coffee together at a cafe. This is like the work I love. So I think that's probably the easiest. And then if there is a particular problem, feel free to reach out to me if you're like I have this question, I just I just need a quick email response or resource. Hello at Lindsaybethlions dot com is the best way to do that. That's great. What's the podcast called I don't know if you mentioned.

35:23 Yeah, it's called Time for Teachership. So teachership being the intersection of leadership and teaching in the classroom. I may have mentioned that actually way back when in the introduction. But in case, in case the listeners forgot Time for Teachership, go give it a listen. Head to Lindsay's website find out more about her schedule a call. It's free, right, I think you said, so if you need to chat around the problem and you're not sure if moving forward is something that you need yet, give her a call let her know. So in the show notes, like I said, we're going to link to the street Data book and other resources that Lindsay mentioned, as well as of course her contact information and her website. Really love learning with you and from you, Lindsay, So thank you so much for your time here and for coming on to this podcast episode. I really appreciate it.

36:15 Thank you. This is so much fun. Well that's it for this episode. Thank you so much for listening. If you haven't done so yet, don't forget to subscribe to this show on your favorite podcast app. If you enjoy the content covered on this show, I want to ask you to do this one thing for me. Please share it. The biggest favor you could ever do for me is to please let others know about what I'm doing and how I'm helping educators grow their impact as instructional leaders. I hope you can share this podcast with other educators, leaders, friends, or anyone you think would love listening and learning. If you're interested in leaving a positive rating and review of this show, links to do so so or always in the show notes for every episode. For more information about me or this show, and to access the great content that I share, please visit my website at Leader of Learning dot com. That's where you can find my online courses, YouTube channel, blog, how to connect with me on social media, and even ways that you can support the show, like donating or purchasing Leader of Learning merchandise. Thanks again, and remember No matter who you are or where you are, you are a leader of learning.