How to Bridge the Gender Equity Divide with Jason Ablin

WEBVTT

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The topic of equity may have been
trending now in education for the past few

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years, but how often do we
talk about equity in terms of gender.

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In this episode, we are talking
about the gender equation in schools. Stick

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around, Welcome to the Leader of
Learning podcast. I'm your host, doctor

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Dan Crinis, and this is where
I help educators grow their impact as instructional

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leaders because my research and leadership experiences
have led me to understand that someone like

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you, regardless of your role or
your title, can have a tremendous impact

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on your organization. I chat with
inspiring guests who are truly making an impact

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as instructional leaders. Whether this is
your first time listening or you've come back

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Anyway, I'm so glad you've tuned
in. Now let's get started a Leader

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of Learning and welcome into episode one
fifty nine. I'm so glad you're here.

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If it's your first time tuning in, thank you so much for checking

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us out. If you're not new
to the show, well, I hope

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you followed or subscribe, depending on
which podcast app you use. Anyway,

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I have a great episode coming up
with Jason Ablin, the author of the

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Gender Equation in Schools, how to
create equity and fairness for all students,

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and I'm so excited to bring that
to you. But before we get there,

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just one piece of housekeeping news real
quick. I recently launched some products

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coaching services one on one coaching for
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at a time to help people both
with their instruction if they are classroom teachers

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or even in school administrators, as
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blogger, a YouTuber, or any
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part of what I'm offering. I'm
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instruction. Some are free, some
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these products and services. Though,
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news about what we're doing here on
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slash news and get subscribed to that
newsletter again. Leader of Learning dot com

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slash News. Now, let's get
into this episode here in episode one fifty

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nine, as I mentioned, my
guest is Jason Ablin. He's the author

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of the Gender Equation in Schools,
How to Create Equity and Fairness for All

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Students. Jason has served in roles
such as teacher, academic director, principle,

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and head of school and holds national
certification in leadership and mentoring from some

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pretty prestigious school administrative associations like NASSP. We have a great conversation about the

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topic of gender Equity in Schools.
And I really don't even want to give

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too much away and I want to
get right to the episode. So coming

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up after these messages is my conversation
with Jason Ablin. Welcome back, Leader

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of Learning. I have a great
guest, and I'm excited to dive into

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a topic that I've only really scratched
the surface about here on this podcast,

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And in this episode we are going
to be talking about something that may still

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be a little taboo to be honest, or at least in my opinion,

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in education. But my guest in
this episode, Jason Ablin, is the

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author of the Gender e Equation in
Schools, How to Create Equity and Fairness

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for All Students. With over thirty
years of experience and education, Jason has

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served as a teacher, academic director, principal, and head of school.

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He holds national certification and leadership mentoring
from NAESP and a SSP. He mentors

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new leaders throughout the country. He's
the director of American Jewish University's Mentor Teacher

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Certification Program, and he currently consults
with schools, leading training and workshops on

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gender equity, positive of faculty engagement, and school culture. So Jason,

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Welcome to the show. Like I
said, I am excited to dive into

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this topic that we've only really dealt
with kind of peripherally, I think,

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beforehand. So I'm really excited to
tackle it more head on with you.

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If there's anything I missed about you
and your introduction, could you help us

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out a little bit more with who
you are, where you are, and

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what you do. No, I
think you got it. You got it

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all. And that's where I'm at
right now with the work that I'm doing

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and obviously going around with the book, and you know, it's interesting you're

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in your introduction. The impulse to
want to deal with this subject right now

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is both a highly timely one,
but also we are living in incredibly divisive

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times in regards to these issues,
and my experiences of going around this country

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right now and talking about the book
bears witness to that, and going to

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places in red states and in places
very conservative places in this country, where

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I'm speaking at conferences and I'm presenting
and keynoting, and teachers are coming up

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to me afterwards and saying, this
is all incredibly fascinating and useful, and

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if I bring it into my school, I'm going to get fired. And

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that's the kind of atmosphere we're in
right now. I never expected that when

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I started writing this book in twenty
eighteen, but that's where we are today,

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and so we've got a lot of
work to do in terms of really

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carving out this issue and making sure
people understand how would impacts education. Yeah.

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I agree, And I didn't really
know how else to put it in

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my introduction other than to use the
word taboo. But can I just I

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guess based on what you just said, right, and based on your interactions,

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your travels, your consultant work,
you said, you're you're basically seeing

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this issue. It's timely, but
you're seeing it. I think the word

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that you use were divisive. Um, I guess. My My first question

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has to be why, like,
how did we get here? Why are

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we in this position that we're in, and why is it that in the

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year twenty twenty three as we record
this is this such an interesting and um

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difficult topic to really wrap our heads
around, especially in education. Well,

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and it's a has a fascinating history, Dan, So I'm really glad you're

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framing that way. The the I
think if we were to roll back to

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twenty and fifteen, most of us
would be very shocked and surprised that we'd

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be here today where we are twenty
and fifteen mark the you know, Supreme

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Court ruling that validated same sex sex
marriage in the United States US the country

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right, and I think we're very
much coupled with the hashtag me too movement.

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I think we're seeing enormous backlash against
a lot of the progress we've made

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on issues of sexuality, gender equality, understanding gender variation, and how it's

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playing out with a younger generation which
is quite comfortable talking about these issues and

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having classmates to our trans and having
classmates who have a variety of different whether

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non bondary or queer identities, and
this generation is very comfortable with it.

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But there's an entire generation in power
which really isn't comfortable with it and thinks

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that we're going down the wrong road. The problem with this framing, of

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course, as educators Dana's trying to
be leaders in schools, is that it

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takes us away from the fundamental issue
that by examining our own implicit biases in

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our relationship to gender and sort of
ameliorating these problems, we can really make

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school much more successful experience for our
children. They can be more successful in

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school, they can feel more safe
in school, they can feel more joyous

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about walking into the classrooms and walking
into their schools every day. And that

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should be the fundamental issue that we're
focused on more than anything else. That

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everyone feels as if they're being validated
and they're being their identity is being validated,

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and also that they have a freedom
to express themselves in experiment with gender

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the way they choose. You know, a couple of months ago, I

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interviewed Jed deery Berry on this show. Jed is out and an openly gay

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man, and he's an openly gay
man and educator from a very conservative area

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of the country and has some strong
opinions about everything from how it's dealt with

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in schools and to even how it's
dealt with in religion. And you know,

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like I said, we kind of
scratched the surface when I spoke to

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him about this, and one of
the things that we talked a little bit

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about was, especially when it comes
to this idea of sexuality, was how

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how different some schools and districts handle
it than others. I shared a story

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I won't go too into it,
because I've already shared it on the podcast

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in that interview. But where I
live here in Connecticut, my kids,

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or at least my son who whose
middle school aged at this point, has

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had conversations at least in health class, if not, I believe even some

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of his other classes too, about
you know, as you were saying too,

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what gender identity means, you know, again not diving too deeply into

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it, probably, but um,
you know, some kind of surface level

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conversation about pronouns and identification. And
I know, and especially after talking to

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Jed, that that doesn't happen everywhere, and that can't happen everywhere right now,

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So I guess I'm wondering too if
you can maybe go into a little

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bit more of a clearer picture for
me and my listeners about what are schools

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and districts in education doing better or
best? And where are some where is

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it that some really need to pick
up the slack in these areas? Okay,

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that's a really great framing down because
we have a tendency in education and

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I think an educational leadership, and
also when we get very pumped up about

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an issue, when we get very
jazzed about an issue, and whether it's

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a social justice issue, an equity
issue, it could be anything. Really,

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it can be about curricular change anything. I think we tend to we

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tend to jump over certain steps before
that we take care of the business that

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we're supposed to take care of with
these issues. So to give you as

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an example, I've gone into a
lot of schools which consider themselves very woke.

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You know, they consider themselves very
progressive on this issue, and they

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ask me to come in often to
deal with particular matter that they're having,

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or a particular issue that they're having, But they want to tell me how

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progressive they are. And they've got
kids talking about pronouns, and they've got

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kids talking about identity and all of
this. But when I walk into the

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classroom and I see certain practices going
on, it's like I'm walking into a

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classroom that's from the nineteen fifties.
So, you know, there's this tendency

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to want to bring it down to
the kids right away. When I think

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the really effective programs that I've seen
are the ones that start with the leadership

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and the faculty of the school first. Can I just ask you to sorry

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to cut you off. Can I
just ask you to maybe get a little

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more specific, because I'm wondering and
I really want to hear what you have

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to say about how to start with
the staff. But let's go back for

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just a minute. I'm sort of
envisioning, like you said, schools and

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districts who think, yeah, we're
we're pretty progressive because we have a gender

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neutral bathroom, right right, you
know, the buck stops there, and

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it's like, well, that's that's
not the end all be all of really

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being progressive about this. So when
you say that there are classroom practices that

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are still happening, that sort of
it's like, we think we're there,

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but we're really not. What do
you mean by that? It's yeah,

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And that's a lot of framing of
the book, right, because my purpose

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and intention of writing the book was, we have an awesome amount of research

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over the last fifty or sixty years. It tells us exactly what we need

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to be doing to bring gender equity
into the classroom and fairness for all students,

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and we need to train our faculty
members and our leadership into how to

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practice in these ways on a regular
basis. I'm going to give you one

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simple example which I think is really
an important It's something called bombing rate,

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and bombing rate has been a term
which has been around again since the nineteen

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seventies, and basically what bombing rate
is, very simply put, is the

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rate at which the teacher interrupts students
when they're talking. Okay, and every

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teacher in the United States can do
MAYA call bob this right, because we're

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all highly verbal and we love to
talk. And you know, teachers realize

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when I'm in when I do presentations
and stuff like this, they all resonate

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with this, with this issue,
and they do it for all sorts of

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reasons. Rights. They're not doing
it for you know, they're not doing

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it for issues of wanting to undermine
students in a new way or to make

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them feel bad. They need to
get the class moving, they need to

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get through curriculum, they need they
need to keep the pace going right,

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and a kid is taking a long
time to answer a question, so there's

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a tendency to interrupt. On average, students are interrupted every second when they're

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speaking, so a student doesn't even
get a chance to speak for more than

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a second before they're interrupted. However, girls in classes are four times more

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likely to be interrupted than boys are
in classes. Okay, So that's a

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very simple example of how we are
teaching girls in particular about the question of

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obedience, of asserting themselves, about
what the value of their voices are in

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class when we are spending so much
more time interrupting them than we are boys

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in the class when they're speaking.
Okay, So immediately teachers are setting up

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these patterns, language patterns and behavioral
patterns in class very very early. And

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we also know from research that boys
are receiving six times the amount of attention

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than girls are receiving in class.
Some of that is because boys learn to

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be more assertive, so when they
have a question about something, they're more

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likely to really push to get an
answer to a question. Uh So,

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a lot of it's very negative.
A lot of the attention they're getting is

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very negative. There's a real kind
of punishment culture against boys in schools,

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and we know we're dealing with a
lot of issues with boys and trying to

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get them acclimated and feeling good about
school. Again, uh, it's not

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helping when they're getting so much negative
attention inside of class, they're getting punished

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at also three times the rate at
girls are getting for doing the exact same

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thing, and these are just really
simple practices. Now. I feel bad

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for interrupting you a couple of minutes
ago, and I'm glad you took us

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down that path because I didn't want
for for listeners to think that when it

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comes to that this idea of gender
equity, that it has to be all

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about um gender, you know,
fluidity and pronouns and things like that.

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It's it's uh, And I haven't
read the book yet. I apologize,

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I thank you for sending it to
me. I'm going to dive into it

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at some point, maybe over the
summer. But it is fascinating, UM,

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because I think equity in general as
a broader term has become trendy in

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education. And I don't necessarily say
that as a bad thing. I don't.

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I don't think saying it's trendy is
that it's like a fad or anything.

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It's it's important. And again,
I've you know, I've delved into

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it here on the podcast in a
lot of different ways, UM, but

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this is really the first time I'm
kind of going at this gender equity piece.

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We've talked before about um equity or
you know when it when it comes

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to UM access to technology, certainly
racial equity, but it's it's fascinating and

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um just to hear you share some
of the research and the statistics behind how

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often girls are interrupted and how much
more attention boys get and how much more

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negative attention they get. It's interesting
because I do think that when it comes

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and again this is not to downplay
racial equity. I think that it has

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become trendy to look at discipline facts
and figures based on what races and demographically

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speaking, who's being punished more than
others and disciplined more than others. But

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I don't know if we're looking at
the gender equity as much as we have

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been with the racial equity piece too. I don't know, what do you

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think about that? Well, I'm
gonna take it even a little further than

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you're taking it, Dan, And
I really feel like one of the ways

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in which diversitating equity inclusion people would
do themselves so much much more of a

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favor in terms of people understanding what
they're trying to do. And I mentioned

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this in the beginning. I think
if if people who are listening to them

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speak and are listening to them engage
and going to these workshops. If they

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don't see a direct line between the
issues that are taking place and making kids

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more successful in school, then I'm
not exactly sure why we're having that conversation,

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because ultimately, as school people and
school leaders, that's really why we're

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doing the work that we're doing,
because we want to create amazing, joyful,

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loving educational environments for our kids so
they can be successful with their learning.

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If you're telling me that the equity
work we're doing is leading me to

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that path, amazing, fantastic,
that's great. Show me how to get

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there, but it should be a
means to an end. It's not something

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in and of itself for me,
because I feel by doing the work,

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you're also going to be doing good
equity work. By doing that work and

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making kids more successful and comfortable with
each other, working together more collaboratively,

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doing all that great stuff, you're
also going to be doing the equity work

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as well. Kids are going to
be relating it's better and better relationships with

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each other. But it all starts
with the faculty, the mission of the

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school, and the leadership of the
school who's willing to put themselves out there

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for that message very very important,
which kind of brings us back to what

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you had started to say before when
I cut you off too about the I

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guess it's really what the what behind
all this? Right? Like, what

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do we do about this? We
know why it's a problem. You've stated

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some of the research. I love
those statistics. I mean, it's it's

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sad, but it is reality.
So I appreciate that. But in terms

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of what do we do you mentioned
before instead of schools going right to working

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with students on this, to really
start with the faculty and staff. So

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how do they do that carefully?
Okay? And why why I say that,

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Dan? It's because this is such
a personal issue for so many people

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about how they identify their experiences with
gender, their experience with sexuality. It

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is so deeply personal for everybody,
right, I mean, there's no one

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who walks around. I'll give you
just an example and maybe you can answer

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this question also as we're talking.
When I begin my conversations with faculty,

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and I do this very strategically,
the first place I begin with is can

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you tell me a gender story from
school? Can you tell me a story

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which you remember either as a professional
or as a student, yourself that really

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spoke to you and made you very
aware of gender issues. And what that

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immediately does is when I begin the
conversation that when I get the faculty talking

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to each other, and I get
teachers talking to each other, they begin

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to see the universal nature of these
questions. Nobody is immune to these questions.

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I mean, Dan, I'll throw
it out at you. Do you

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remember a particular moment or experience that
you had which really resonated with you in

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terms of gender identity and a gender
moment in school? That's a great question.

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I was trying to think a little
bit as you were talking about that.

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Um, from my own school,
you know, school career K to

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twelve education, I really don't.
I'm trying to think now about my career

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as an educator. UM. I
mean, of course, there have been

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some students that I've dealt with who
are I don't want to stay confused.

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That's not the right word. They're
they're exploring their identity. Yeah, in

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terms though of anything like from the
curriculum, I don't know. I think

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it would be a stretch, but
there were As a former classroom LA teacher,

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they were probably some stories that I
read like mentor text with my classes

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that I could that we probably could
have explored the gender issue a little bit.

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Like one that jumps out at me
is the book The Giver, which

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has all sorts of amazing themes and
discussions and topics that are great for secondary

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students, but it certainly wasn't directly
and explicitly tied to the curriculum, you

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know what I mean, Like it
would have been a stretch. Okay,

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So you know, I'm gonna let
you brew on that a little bit because

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maybe you'll be able to come up
with something and think of something. I'm

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going to give you some examples which
have come up a number of times when

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talking to faculty and for women,
there are two stories which come up on

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a regular basis when we're talking about
this. And and since seventy eight percent

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of teachers in the United States or
women, much of the time I'm training,

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I can be training in an elementary
school all an all female staff,

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right, and one of the memories
that they have is one is the Bob

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cut. Right. They go they
come back from summer vacation or some vacation.

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You know, we just all got
back from spring break, and their

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their mom or their parents took them
out for a haircut, and they come

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back with this kind of bob cut, and they find themselves all of a

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sudden confronted with all of these people
using kind of masculinized retorts back to them

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about their new state of being.
Right, somehow, their entire identity has

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been now caught up in a new
haircut that they have. Right. The

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other story I hear a lot,
which is really painful on a sort of

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level, is one woman spoke about
being on the cheerleading team. Right,

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So, on the cheerleading team,
she would go out and you know,

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at a basketball game or whatever it
was, and she would get comments thrown

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at her from the stand because of
the outfits that they were wearing, very

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highly sexualized clothes. And then she
would come in the next day an administrator

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would come up to her and basically
castigate her for uniform violations. Okay,

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So, on the one hand,
it's totally okay that she becomes this sexualized

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object when she is on you know, and the cheerleading team. But when

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she's at school, all of a
sudden, her body is being policed by

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a dress code which is mainly addressed
towards women's dressing right and quote unquote modesty.

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Right. There are places they're supposed
to be modest and there are places

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they can be totally you know,
these are real sexual stereotypes, right.

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So, and a lot of the
male faculty members, interestingly enough, we'll

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talk about their social circumstances, and
they'll talk about something that really begins in

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high school, which is the social
organization that takes place for boys after a

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certain age in middle school. In
high school, and boys talk a lot

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about having to fit into what's called
the boy box or a gender box,

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where they're expected to use certain kinds
of language, talk in certain kind of

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ways, often derogatory, some types
towards other students. They're encouraged to make

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fun of other students who are not
fitting into that boy box, and they

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find that later on in life when
they reflect back on it, it makes

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them feel bad that they had to
act a certain way in order to identify

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as a growing young boy and a
man. And those are some of the

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stories that come up during these sessions, and they really start to humanize the

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entire issue. When we start talking
about gender in the classroom, it gives

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him a new lens to think about
this podcast is a proud member of the

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00:27:06.880 --> 00:27:11.119
Teach Better podcast network, Better Today, Better Tomorrow, and the podcast to

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00:27:11.160 --> 00:27:14.960
get you there. You can find
out more at Teach Better dot com slash

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00:27:15.000 --> 00:27:18.599
podcast. Now let's get back to
the episode. You know, I want

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to take this opportunity, and certainly
we've talked about your book and for my

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listeners, obviously, the link to
Jason's book will be in the show notes

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for where you can purchase your own
copy. But I also want to give

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a shout out to someone who I
grew up with. His name is Jason

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Klein. He probably doesn't listen to
this podcast because he's not an education But

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Jay wrote an amazing book called Yes
Pepper, and it's basically the rest of

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the title is girls can play baseball
too, or girls can play ball too.

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And when you were asking me those
questions, and when you were talking

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about kind of those experiences that we
we sort of all grow up with,

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I guess and and those circumstances like
you mentioned. So Jay has two kids.

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They're both right around the same ages
as as my kids actually, and

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they go to camp together. And
his younger daughter, Jay is a big

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baseball fan and he grew up playing
baseball and everything. You're a Yankees fan,

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Jason. My friend Jay is another
huge Yankee fan, so um,

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you know, I think when they
were having kids, he probably was hoping

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for a boy to you know,
go out and play catch and get him

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to play baseball, but that he
has girls too. What happened was his

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younger daughter wanted to play baseball and
questioned her dad and questioned her place really

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in sports, and was like,
but dad, you know, I'm I'm

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a girl, like am I supposed
to be playing baseball? And I'm going

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to get some of the details wrong, so I'll keep him general. But

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basically, my friend j put out
a tweet on Twitter that went completely viral

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about this idea of his daughter asking
him whether or not it's okay as a

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girl to play baseball versus obviously the
more female or feminine sport, which is

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softball. She wanted to play baseball. Well, that whole, that whole

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thing turned into a lot of content
that he created around it, and then

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within the past I don't know,
six months or so, actually writing this

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book. So I want to,
you know, like I said, I

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want to plug your book, Jason
Ablin. But also I wanted to shout

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out my friend Jason Klin too,
and I'll link to his book in the

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show notes too, as we were
talking about this gender equality piece, because

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that's a children's book that can be
read by children and two children, and

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I think it's it's really important to
mention here. So I just wanted to

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give him that that moment. Yeah. Look, I mean, you know,

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we're both of us are dad's dan, and we're trying to think I

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think frame growing up and getting older
and identity with our kids as in as

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in as human and loving a way
as possible. And at the same time,

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I think we want a kids to
feel comfortable with pushing back on norms

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we don't necessarily feel or are fair
or appropriate as as we do in school.

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We don't want school to be a
place where where there's this a serious

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amount of respectful pushback from kids,
where they are really pushing back. Uh.

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You know, I take my kids
out in California now, but every

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time to you know, the Yankees
come out to play Anaheim, it's it's

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like a yearly tradition for me and
my girls to go down and watch those

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games. And they certainly don't act
like girls at the game. You know

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they are. They are vocal and
loud, and they are out there and

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they are pure brad Yankee fans,
you know, as I as I want

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them to be, and I want
them to feel like the whole world is

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open to them, that there are
restrictions, that they have full freedom.

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I think part of that is challenging
these gender norms and being mentors to our

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kids and our students about really being
who you are and having the identity that

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you that you that you see that
you feel really glad you said that,

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because I want to kind of end
on that note a little bit. So

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when you talk about being mentors to
your kids, to your students, I

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wasn't sure if I was going to
bring this up, but I probably won't

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talk too much about it. But
we deal with some of this issue of

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gender equity and gender norms in my
own home. I have a daughter who

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just turned nine, who is not
as you just said about your daughters if

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when they attend baseball games, she
is not necessarily very girly, and unfortunately

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it does it does still rear its
ugly head among kids too. Fortunately for

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us, I think a lot of
her teachers throughout the years have been UM

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really good with her and good with
the students who are around her. But

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I will also tell you that she
idolizes her older brother, my my you

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know, my oldest my son.
And I think in a lot of ways

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it's her UM just sort of living
in his shadow and really wanted to,

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uh kind of live up to him
in some ways. But anyway, I

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guess my question that I that I
wanted to start wrapping up with is like,

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how then can we as educators,
as as classroom teachers, but school

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leaders as well, you know,
how can we advocate for more understanding and

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more empathy when it comes to differences
and equality when you know, when talking

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about gender. And I guess just
how much more work needs to be done

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in this area at the ground level. Right, So again, I think

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kids are spending eighty to ninety percent
of their time in classrooms when they go

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to school, and I think that
teachers have to really learn how to expand

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their lenses and thinking about how their
practices are either feeding into it the implicit

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biases that we see, or are
they really creating opening up new possibilities because

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they're they've really they really understand the
way in which the classroom functions to either

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make these things more equitable or not
right. And in my book, I'm

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a practical guide, Dan, I
mean I'm you know, I created tools.

408
00:33:40.519 --> 00:33:45.200
In the book, I created processes. I talked about the way that

409
00:33:45.319 --> 00:33:50.319
we need to go in and do
evaluation of classrooms along these lines to talk

410
00:33:50.359 --> 00:33:53.720
about it. How do we handle
math education in a particular way, How

411
00:33:53.720 --> 00:33:59.039
do we handle the way that classrooms
are designed? Right? So, classroom

412
00:33:59.119 --> 00:34:02.079
design and particularly elementary schools is a
big issue that I talk about in the

413
00:34:02.119 --> 00:34:07.119
book and which I really expand upon. The other thing that we really need

414
00:34:07.160 --> 00:34:10.760
to take a look at in a
very deep way is our policies and practices

415
00:34:10.840 --> 00:34:15.800
whole school. And this is really
the responsibility of leadership in the school to

416
00:34:15.880 --> 00:34:21.480
make sure that they're taking a look
at their policies and saying, are our

417
00:34:21.639 --> 00:34:27.920
policies aiding and abetting certain biases that
we have towards kids? Do I have

418
00:34:28.000 --> 00:34:30.280
time for one more example of us? Yeah? Yeah, absolutely, Okay,

419
00:34:30.360 --> 00:34:35.320
great, thank you. So.
One of the one of the one

420
00:34:35.360 --> 00:34:37.239
of the pieces of research which they're
bringing the book is the way we handle

421
00:34:37.280 --> 00:34:42.880
when when boys get gets when boys
get into fights in schools, physical fights.

422
00:34:43.599 --> 00:34:46.360
Okay. So a lot of research
was done in Sweden in the United

423
00:34:46.400 --> 00:34:51.760
States around this issue, and one
of the things that these researchers found when

424
00:34:51.800 --> 00:34:55.800
they looked at the documentation on what
happens when kids get into fights is that

425
00:34:57.039 --> 00:34:59.960
when boys get into fights. First
of all, when girls get into fight,

426
00:35:00.079 --> 00:35:02.400
there's like six therapists in the room. We have like you know,

427
00:35:02.480 --> 00:35:07.239
social emotional people coming in. It's
you know, it's a national tragedy when

428
00:35:07.239 --> 00:35:12.639
girls get into a physical fight.
When boys get into fights, the language

429
00:35:12.639 --> 00:35:16.519
that's often used to describe what they're
doing is natural and normal forms of emotional

430
00:35:16.519 --> 00:35:22.679
expression. Right, So are you
know, we're talking about boys and we're

431
00:35:22.719 --> 00:35:27.360
saying boys are being boys. This
is how they express themselves, this is

432
00:35:27.360 --> 00:35:31.519
how they communicate their emotions, right, and we're calling it normative, we're

433
00:35:31.559 --> 00:35:37.519
calling it normal. Okay. So
on the one hand, we're telling kids

434
00:35:37.519 --> 00:35:42.440
that, we're telling boys that it's
totally okay to get into acts of violence,

435
00:35:43.280 --> 00:35:45.960
okay, and that's a normal way
for you to express yourself emotionally.

436
00:35:46.280 --> 00:35:49.719
Then what do we do. On
the other hand, we have zero policy,

437
00:35:50.079 --> 00:35:55.000
zero tolerance policies in our school,
So they get suspended or expelled that

438
00:35:55.159 --> 00:36:00.599
policy divide right there, and the
way we're framing what's going on when boys

439
00:36:00.639 --> 00:36:09.199
get into fights versus the way we're
responding is exactly reinforcing and exacerbating very misogynistic,

440
00:36:09.239 --> 00:36:16.840
patriarchal understanding of masculinity, very toxic
and narrow understandings. So I'm a

441
00:36:16.880 --> 00:36:22.760
big advocate of getting rid of zero
tolerance policies, particularly on this issue.

442
00:36:22.280 --> 00:36:30.639
If we really want to help young
boys become thoughtful individuals who love and care

443
00:36:30.760 --> 00:36:34.079
each other and can care for other
people, one thing we need to tell

444
00:36:34.119 --> 00:36:37.480
them is this is not normal emotional
expression. Okay, if you have a

445
00:36:37.519 --> 00:36:40.760
problem, you talk to somebody and
you talk it out. And on the

446
00:36:40.800 --> 00:36:45.480
other hand, we don't then exclude
them from the very community that could support

447
00:36:45.559 --> 00:36:52.880
them and help them grow and become
better people. That's one example of where

448
00:36:53.000 --> 00:36:59.239
a certain policy can really have an
enormous impact from a gender standpoint. And

449
00:36:59.480 --> 00:37:02.920
I hope that the book will help
leaders in particular rethink a lot of the

450
00:37:04.000 --> 00:37:07.519
things that they're doing along these lines. Me too, Me too. And

451
00:37:07.599 --> 00:37:13.000
I'm really glad that we had this
conversation, And you know, I'm glad

452
00:37:13.079 --> 00:37:17.719
that I can we can at least
play a small part in trying to um

453
00:37:19.280 --> 00:37:23.400
you know better advocate and educate for
these issues. And you know, again,

454
00:37:23.480 --> 00:37:28.880
this is one that I hadn't really
tackled head on, but I'm glad

455
00:37:28.880 --> 00:37:31.039
to and uh and I hope it
does help. So anyway, the book

456
00:37:31.079 --> 00:37:36.320
again is the Gender Equation in Schools, How to create equity and fairness for

457
00:37:36.360 --> 00:37:40.639
all students. Really appreciate your time
and the conversation. Where can people go?

458
00:37:42.320 --> 00:37:44.840
They're they're going to be able to
go to the show notes here for

459
00:37:44.840 --> 00:37:50.039
this episode my website Leader of Learning
dot com slash episode one fifty nine and

460
00:37:50.079 --> 00:37:52.760
the link to the book will be
there as well, or just open the

461
00:37:52.760 --> 00:37:57.760
show notes in whatever podcast app you're
listening to this episode on right now,

462
00:37:58.239 --> 00:38:01.800
scroll down, click the link,
and you'll be taken to the Amazon page

463
00:38:01.800 --> 00:38:05.599
where you can purchase the book.
But if people want to reach right out

464
00:38:05.599 --> 00:38:07.559
to you, Jason, can they
and where do they go? So then

465
00:38:07.599 --> 00:38:13.599
go to my website Ablin education dot
com and they can email me at hello

466
00:38:13.760 --> 00:38:16.599
at Ablin education dot com and that's
an easy way to get to me.

467
00:38:16.639 --> 00:38:21.400
I'm also spending way too much time
on Twitter most of the day, so

468
00:38:21.440 --> 00:38:25.039
they can find me on Twitter.
I'm also on Instagram and Facebook and LinkedIn

469
00:38:25.320 --> 00:38:30.599
as well, and just reach out
to me. Love to talk, love

470
00:38:30.639 --> 00:38:35.599
to talk about these issues and working
with schools and working with faculty and working

471
00:38:35.599 --> 00:38:40.199
with leadership. I also do boys
training groups. I work with boys groups

472
00:38:40.199 --> 00:38:45.320
of boys to talk about the issues
that they're having in schools. So I've

473
00:38:45.360 --> 00:38:49.000
done that a number of times,
and that's been really special work. It's

474
00:38:49.039 --> 00:38:54.320
exhausting work, but it's very very
very satisfying work, and I just want

475
00:38:54.320 --> 00:38:58.800
to say shout out to you and
thank you so much for having me on

476
00:38:58.840 --> 00:39:01.960
the show. Well, thanks a
lot, and keep up the great work

477
00:39:01.960 --> 00:39:07.360
and congratulations on everything that you're doing. Thanks, thank you so much.

478
00:39:12.000 --> 00:39:15.280
Well that's it for this episode.
Thank you so much for listening. If

479
00:39:15.320 --> 00:39:19.800
you haven't done so yet, don't
forget to subscribe to this show on your

480
00:39:19.800 --> 00:39:22.960
favorite podcast app. If you enjoy
the content covered on this show, I

481
00:39:23.039 --> 00:39:27.840
want to ask you to do this
one thing for me. Please share it.

482
00:39:28.239 --> 00:39:31.360
The biggest favor you could ever do
for me is to please let others

483
00:39:31.400 --> 00:39:37.400
know about what I'm doing and how
I'm helping educators grow their impact as instructional

484
00:39:37.519 --> 00:39:40.639
leaders. I hope you can share
this podcast with other educators, leaders,

485
00:39:40.960 --> 00:39:45.639
friends, or anyone you think would
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486
00:39:45.679 --> 00:39:50.440
in leaving a positive rating and review
of this show, links to do so

487
00:39:50.639 --> 00:39:54.320
or always in the show notes for
every episode. For more information about me

488
00:39:54.559 --> 00:39:59.400
or this show, and to access
the great content that I share, please

489
00:39:59.519 --> 00:40:02.320
visit my website at Leader of Learning
dot com. That's where you can find

490
00:40:02.440 --> 00:40:07.760
my online courses, YouTube channel,
blog, how to connect with me on

491
00:40:07.800 --> 00:40:12.679
social media, and even ways that
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492
00:40:12.719 --> 00:40:16.840
purchasing Leader of Learning merchandise. Thanks
again, and remember, no matter who

493
00:40:16.880 --> 00:40:21.639
you are or where you are,
you are a Leader of Learning.