How to Implement Effective Math Instruction with Kyle Pearce and Jon Orr

WEBVTT

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There was not a focus on understanding
the math the way we're trying, you

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know, the way we should be
doing it now, and that's made a

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shift to change instruction and because of
that, all these teachers are underprepared to

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teach math at a conceptual level.
Welcome to the Leader of Learning podcast.

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I'm your host, doctor Dan Crinis, and this is where I help educators

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grow their impact as instructional leaders because
my research and leadership experiences have led me

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to understand that someone like you,
regardless of your role or your title,

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can have a tremendous impact on your
organization. I chat with inspiring guests who

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are truly making an impact as instructional
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topics, or guests. Anyway,
I'm so glad you've tuned in. Now

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let's get started. Hey, they're
a Leader of Learning. Welcome into episode

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one fifty eight. If you like
me and in the field of education,

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you may have recently had like I
did, spring break, which means a

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couple of things one. It means
that there's a light at the end of

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the tunnel. It means that the
end of the school year is approaching.

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It also means that you likely had
some time to rest and relax and hopefully

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rejuvenate and kind of get that energy
that you might need for that final push

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to the school year. That was
me Last week. I had my spring

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break, and although it was a
little bit late in the school year,

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it was very much appreciated. And
now I am back and I do have

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some renewed energy for the rest of
the school year. Just before we get

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into this episode, I want to
cover a couple of housekeep items. First

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of all, I have a very
exciting announcement. That is, after five

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plus years, almost five and a
half years doing this podcast, I decided

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to jump ship and leave one podcast
network and join another. And so I

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am very excited and proud to announce
that this podcast, Leader of Learning,

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is now part of the Teach Better
podcast network. If you've never heard of

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Teach Better before, they offer amazing
services to support educators and schools and districts

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across the country and even worldwide.
I've been a part of Teach Better now

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for several years first really getting involved
with their Administrator and Leadership Mastermind program.

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I've now gotten myself into their entrepreneur
Mastermind program and still fairly recently was named

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a Teach Better Ambassador, and I'm
really proud of that. Last year I

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went to the Teach Better conferences in
person in Akron, Ohio, and I'm

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really excited to be going back again
in twenty twenty three. I hope to

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see you there. But for more
information on the Teach Better team, head

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to teach Better dot com. And
one more bit of housekeeping before we get

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started, and that is I really
appreciate you listening to these podcast episodes,

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and I certainly hope that you get
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But in case you didn't know,
my content creation doesn't stop at just creating

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these podcast episodes. I have a
YouTube channel, I create blogs, sometimes

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lot of content in a fairly regular
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ask you that, if you're appreciating
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subscribing to that email newsletter because I
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Anyway. For more information on how to

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subscribe, head to Dancrenis dot com. Slash news now onto episode one fifty

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eight. When my guests in this
episode, Kyle Pierce and John Orr reached

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out to me to ask me to
come onto the show, I was at

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first a little hesitant, but that
hesitation ultimately led to the reason why I

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wanted to bring them on. These
guys are the host of Makemath Moments podcast

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as well as the co owners of
Make maath Moments as a as a business

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as a company, and really they're
in the business of debunking some myths around

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math instruction and basically doing the work
that it takes that's necessary to help schools

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and districts kind of revitalize and rethink
what math instruction should be about. Like

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I said, I was kind of
hesitant because math is not really my thing

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and my experience as a teacher was
pretty much as far away from math as

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you could get. But in my
career I have definitely faced some imposter syndrome,

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I guess is the best way to
call it around this idea of being

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able to support teachers in subject areas
that I'm not super comfortable with, and

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so because of that, I thought
it would be a great idea to invite

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them onto the episode so that they
can give me and you some tips and

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tricks and really solid advice for how
to ramp up and like I said,

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revitalize the efforts behind making the math
instruction at schools and parts of districts really

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impactful and really effective. So I
know that you're going to get a lot

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of value out of this conversation because
I already have and I can't wait for

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you to listen. So coming right
up after these messages is my interview with

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Kyle and John all Right, leader
of Learning, Welcome back. I am

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very excited to talk. I can't
believe I'm saying this. I'm very excited

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to talk about math here in this
episode because I have the guys from Make

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Math Moments, Kyle and John,
Thank you guys for comment. Let me

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just talk about them a little bit. So. Kyle Pierce is the K

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to twelve mathematics consultant with the Greater
Essex County District school Board and John Orr

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is a high school math teacher at
John McGregor's Secondary School. And I hope

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I'm pronouncing this correctly. The Lampton
Kent District School Board and Ontary nailed awesome

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together. They co founded Make Math
Moments, and I know they host the

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Make maath Moments podcast, And so
we got a couple of pod fellow podcasters

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on here too. Guys, thanks
so much for joining me. Let's let's

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start with Kyle. I know I
didn't give my audience enough of an introduction

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to you. What else can you
tell us about who you are, where

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you are and what you do?
Now that's about it. Just math.

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That's all we do. Know.
Yeah, I'm I'm, as you mentioned,

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math consultant, but formally in the
high school math classroom. And I

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came out did a coaching role for
a number of years where I was I

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was teaching in the morning and then
going out and doing a coaching role in

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the afternoon for middle grades, and
then now being K through twelve, I've

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sort of been stretched in all directions. So you know, I kind of

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look at it as as sort of
the reverse as to how you would you

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might want to do things starting in
high school and working my way all the

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way back, and now I can
better see at a distance, you know,

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where some of these struggles and mathematics
come, where they start, and

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then ultimately trying to work through ways
that we can help more students understand the

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mathematics, but even more so,
helping more educators feel confident in teaching the

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math. And when we say confidence, like also just get them excited about

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it, because obviously, you know, it's contagious, right when you're excited

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about something, students are excited.
If you're scared of it, if you're

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not confident in that subject area,
then obviously students are going to take that

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whether you say it or not.
They see your actions and you know,

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really that's the work we've been digging
into. And uh yeah, John,

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how about you, buddy. Yeah, that's a that's a great intro for

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you. Cal But me also high
school math teacher here in southern Ontario,

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Canada, and and I was a
teacher you know that you probably remembered in

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school. I was very traditional,
very make sure that I guess we I

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always like to sum it up on
our podcast. It was like I always

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focused on math content and getting like
the rules out, the procedures out in

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helping you know, I thought I
was helping kids by by giving them everything

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up front. I was that teacher
that you imagined a high school teacher.

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And it wasn't until you know,
a number of years into my teaching career

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that I made shifts and changes UH
to better serve my students and think about

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what really mathematics education is and in
terms of thinking and content knowledge and pedagogy

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knowledge. UM, So that was
kind of that's kind of where where I

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have have started. UM, Kyle
and Kyle and I have been you know,

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collaborating for the last number of almost
ten years now on our teaching practices

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in the math class on on sparking
curiosity, engaging students, UM really deep

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diving deep into sense making with kids
so that they understand the mathematics at a

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conceptual level. And and that's kind
of morphed also into the work that we

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do here at make Math Moments and
supporting teachers but also supporting leaders and district

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district leaders and math coaches and consultants
on how to change their programming and how

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to how to how to help UH
districts change math instruction from the top down.

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That's uh a math, but it's
great. So I you guys are

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former or or you're you're still in
in education obviously, but but classroom math

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teachers, I was the furthest thing
from a math teacher. I was in

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a classroom LA teacher now turned digital
learning coach because I'm one of those guys

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who got good at incorporating instructional technology. So I will admit that math is

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not something that it's not. It's
not that I'm bad at it. I'm

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okay at it. I don't love
it, and I definitely wouldn't have wanted

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to teach it. And I think
Kyle, Um, I'm gonna put words

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in your mouth. I don't remember
what you said, but just before we

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hit record here, you kind of
alluded to the fact that a lot of

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people think that math stinks. Again, I forget how you said it,

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but and that wasn't it. But
like, I don't I don't even know

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where I'm going with this question,
but like, how did we how did

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we get here? Yeah, you
know what, It's It's interesting because I'm

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guessing that many of your listeners as
well, And this is the part that

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I think really is intrigued both John
and I. You know, we began

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working obviously as educators. We all
start working with students, and then you

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start to realize, woe, if
we can start influencing change with educators,

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we can actually help more students.
And then when you go another level up

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and you start looking at people in
leadership role, so folks like yourself and

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administrators and superintendents and all of the
leaders, what you start to see is

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you start to see a pattern that
the story you just said is actually happening

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with a lot of other leaders out
there right where they're going. You know,

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like I'm I'm okay at the math
I again, you know, similar

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to your scenario. I can't remember
exact words you use there, but you

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know, you sort of suggested as
though you were like, it wasn't necessarily

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the thing that you were getting out
of bed excited to teach in the morning.

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And if you think about that,
and then we extrapolate that and say,

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if a large majority of our leaders
weren't those educators, it makes it

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incredibly difficult for you folks in your
roles to help math educators or teachers who

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are teaching math, because that's the
other piece is that you know, we

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don't have necessarily math specialists in every
grade level, right, And in many

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districts there's generalists, and again they
have a very similar story. So that's

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really where our work has sort of
evolved to, is like we need to

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help our leaders to better understand what
is effective math instruction, but then also

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they also need to be able to
notice a name like where like what is

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the mathematics learning? Because the reality
is I'm going to guess Dan that one

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of the reasons why you feel the
way you do is probably because you were

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taught in the way that John just
described. Right. You were taught to

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follow steps and procedures and memorize rules, and you know, whether you understood

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the rules or not, you maybe
squeaked by right, And I always say

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I was a lucky one. I
never understood the mathematics. And until you

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understand the mathematics at a deeper conceptual
level, only then can we actually put

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good teaching practice into play that will
actually show results in the classroom with our

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students. Let me ask you a
question, as as an ELA teacher in

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the classroom, I don't know that
this impacted me as much as maybe teachers

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and other subject areas. But I've
heard throughout my career everyone should be all

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teachers should be reading teachers, right
right, I guess I guess what I'm

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wondering is like, should we also
think of ourselves all as math teachers?

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Or or a better question is like
are there ways to fit math in to

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other subject area? I mean,
science is the obvious one, right,

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but are there are there ways of
fitting math into other subject areas that we

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should be exploring more? John?
What do you what do you say to

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that is that's on the right track? I don't know. Yah, yeah,

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well us being a math gurus and
also like just loving uh math geeks.

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Jo, Yeah, math geeks.
I got the wrong G. You

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know, G we're there, but
yeah, like I hear exactly what you're

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saying. We you know here in
Ontario. You know, I think if

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you walked into any school, they
would say the same thing about literacy,

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that we're all literacy teachers. We're
all kind of helping students kind of develop

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their literacy skills. But but I
think we could. I'd like to say

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that we would. We were all
should be helping numerous cy skills and building

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our our ourn understanding and working with
number um. I think that's that's so

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important that we do that. But
I think I think I think there's like

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there's there's a good I get worried
about it though, right. So it's

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like when we start to go,
hey, we're teach I'm going to teach

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a math lesson, and then some
of us who are thinking, like,

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there are certain things that we want
to make sure that we bring out so

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that students are experiencing math and experiencing
a conceptual understanding of math before building procedural

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fluency. I think I think us
as a mean when I say us,

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like us teachers who are probably I
would say probably almost every every teacher at

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this point in their career or or
any point in their career, just by

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age, didn't go through a system
that put an emphasis on building conceptual understanding.

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And it's no fault. It's no
fault of us or are who we

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are, or even our teachers.
It's just the system that was designed primarily

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because of textbooks and the way that
that content was a focus to go off

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to university and there wasn't any focus
on any of the other kind of pathways

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like that. There was not a
focus on understanding the math the way we're

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trying, you know, the way
we should be doing it now. And

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that's made a shift to change instruction, and and because of that, we've

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got to you know, all all
these teachers are underprepared to teach math at

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a conceptual level so that they can
build procedual fluency. Because that procedual fluency,

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conceptual understanding gets blurred and people think, oh, I need to like

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make sure kids know their math facts. That's so important. We got to

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memorize their math facts. And I
think everybody wants that, right, Like

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everybody wants kids to know math facts
when they come out of school. It's

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but do we want them to understand
how these concepts are are are interwoven with

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each other. Do we want them
to understand how how to actually like make

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good use of their number sense versus
just straight memorization. So so we we've

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got a bunch of teachers who aren't
probably prepared or equipped yet to teach at

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that level and teach that understanding first. So I get worried when we're gonna

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be like everybody should teach numbers.
But if we're gonna just teach numbers the

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way we were all taught numbers and
we're all taught math. I'm gonna say

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no, I'm gonna say we don't
want that. We want to educate all

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of our teachers to come at it
from a place of conceptual understanding, to

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build procedual fluency. And that's actually
like in the work that we do,

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that's actually just one like that when
we talk about conceptual understanding building procedural fluency,

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which is which is one of the
eight effective teaching practices for Men's CTM.

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That's kind of just one area of
what we know in the work that

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we've been doing, of six big
areas to improve math instruction in schools.

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I have like a burning question that
I feel like this is a perfect opportunity

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for me to ask too math geek
slash gurus, but also, John,

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you kind of like set me up
for this one. The shift right from

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what i'll call old school or more
traditional ways of learning math to this new

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sort of conceptual style. I'm guessing
you guys have heard this before too,

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But as an educator and a parent, I certainly have seen where other parents

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call it common core math. Right, it just seems like such a departure

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from the way we learn John,
you mentioned some of those math facts,

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right, like we grew up having
to either memorize things or learn formulas and

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and I'm not saying that that's not
being taught nowadays, but I do understand

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that there has been or or we're
trying desperately maybe to shift toward more of

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that conceptual model. Um, I
guess. So, I guess my question

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really is like, are you guys
seeing that as well? In the math

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world, are there is there still
such a hesitation especially by parents but also

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by teacher even school leaders when it
comes to like okay, but but students

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really need to know how to do
mental math or you know, you know

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whatever it is that that's so more
of that traditional model. Well, it's

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it's so interesting because you know,
and I can totally understand and relate,

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and you know, kind of John
had already alluded to it. It's like

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no fault of their own, right. Even there's some educators out there,

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they're going, Okay, I'm going
to try to do this thing that I

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was never taught as a student,
Right, So I'm going to try to

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do this thing which is called understanding
what's really happening here. And I'm gonna

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then do that for students, but
I'm not only going to do that,

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I'm going to also do it in
a way that's going to craft an experience

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for them to understand it. But
I still don't understand it yet. So

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okay, that's that's a tall task. And then somehow I'm going to also

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be able to see far enough down
the road that it actually connects to the

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thing that I learned in school.
So, you know, I think one

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of the easiest ones is, you
know, to think about the standard algorithm,

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right, two digit by two digit
multiplications probably the best example of it.

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You know, kids I remembers as
a kid. You know, you

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start with the ones, and you
know, you multiply the ones, and

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then you multiply this way, and
then you have to carry and then you

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drop a zero, and all of
these things that you did, All of

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those things are happening for a very
specific reason. And the model that we

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try to build through, and we'll
say common Core. Common Core is a

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curriculum, So it's just you know, a series of expectations or standards that

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they've put together along a developmental trajectory. The problem is is that the educators

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weren't given the training to actually do
this well. So you can only imagine,

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you know, if all of a
sudden they say, hey, you

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know, we're coming up to the
end of this school year and they say,

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hey, Kyle, you know next
year we're going to have you teach

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chemistry. And I'm I'm not a
science guy, right, So I mean,

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you can only imagine how well that's
going to go. When I think

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I took one science course in school, I memorized it all, I never

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understood it, and now I have
to go do it and they're telling me

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that I have to teach it through
the common court, which means you need

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to help students understand what's actually happening
here. So you can imagine that that's

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not a great move, you know, when we sort of rush into those

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things. So I think, in
general, to paint a picture, if

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we do this well, then parents
are going to love it because kids are

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going to be telling them why it's
working, and they're going to be showing

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them why that algorithm actually works.
But the part that's really tough is when

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you're a parent and you only know
how to stack two digit numbers and you

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only know the algorithm and the students
trying to do multiplication using an area model

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or an array or any of the
other developmental pieces that we weren't exposed to.

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So a parents sitting there going this
is like a lot of parents to

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say, this is silly, this
is a waste of time. This look

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at my kids frustrated. I'm frustrated. We're all frustrated here, like,

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let's just do this. And then
they they show them how to stack it.

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The student mimics it, and then
we think they understand how to multiply

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two digit by two digit multiplication.
But in reality, all they've done is

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they've memorized a series of steps which
in two three weeks maybe two three months,

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students will then start to fall falter
and forget steps, and all of

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a sudden it's like they never learned
it in the first place. So the

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reality is is that while it will
take more time, it will take more

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effort as well. The result is
so much richer, it's so much deeper

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that students actually understand what's happening.
And really the goal is is that if

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I'm doing that algorithm, because again
this isn't a conceptual versus procedural fluency,

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This is conceptual to help students understand
and build procedural fluency. So if they

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falter here, they should be able
to rewind and go, you know what

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this algorithm, I can't remember it, like I can't remember the step,

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and then they go, well,
if I was to draw the array or

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the area model, I could then
reconvince myself why that actually works. Like

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that's what we do in all aspects
of life. When something doesn't go right,

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you stop and you start to think
of like what could not be working

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here, like the car's not starting, what isn't working here? And in

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mathematics, we've never really been set
up with those tools. It's just it

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doesn't work. So I guess we're
not starting the card today. Well,

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and I just want to add add
something about I think you had talked about

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it's not an either or with conceptual
understanding Kyle into procedural fluency, and I

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didn't I didn't elaborate too much on
this on the idea of procedural fluency,

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but I think I think that's kind
of where I where I was going a

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little bit with this idea that that
people think procedural fluency is just knowing the

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facts, like knowing the algorithm knowing
you know, these these these set of

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procedures that we all you all kind
of remember from school or partly remember from

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school. But I mean, like
when we talk real fluency and fluency just

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is that comfort level. But there's
actually like three components of fluency, and

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that's being efficient, and that's being
flexible and accurate. And I think when

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we when most people think about fluency, they think accurate, they think,

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let me just get there, like
it's right, like I got the right

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answer. That's being fluent, but
it's not. It's it flexible and efficient

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is thinking about when I'm solving this
problem and I'm working with these numbers and

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maybe I'm using some mental math strategies, could I be flexible and try to

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choose a strategy that works in this
situation? And am I am I working

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with the most efficient strategy to solve
this problem? Kyle, I think you

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always use an example of like when
you're doing subtraction and it's like if I'm

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going to subtract, what is it
like like nine hundred and ninety nine,

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and or it's like there's like a
taking you know this now it's like it's

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like one thousand and one subtract nine
hundred and ninety nine with the whole bunch

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of borrowing with zeros happening right there. And if you're following the algorithm,

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like you're thinking, I'm ac,
You're I'm fluent, but it's like,

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well, you weren't very efficient,
because really, what is the difference between

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those two numbers is another thing,
another way to think about a strategy that's

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different than the algorith that is more
fluent than say, someone who's just kind

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of trying to be accurate with it, with an accurate with with the the

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the the algorithm, the I'll help
you out there, John, There you

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go. Thanks. This podcast is
a proud member of the Teach Better Podcast

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00:25:26.799 --> 00:25:32.200
Network, Better Today, Better Tomorrow, and the podcast to get you there.

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00:25:32.599 --> 00:25:37.440
Explore more podcasts at www dot Teach
Better podcast Network dot com. Now

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00:25:37.480 --> 00:25:42.839
let's get back to the episode.
So I really appreciate the way that both

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of you guys explained that the conceptual
compliments the procedural and vice versa. You

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kind of nowadays sort of can't have
one without the other. Well, you

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can, but maybe that wouldn't be
the best way to do it. And

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and and that sort of leads me
to my next point, I guess,

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like, when teachers, when systems
are still stuck more in that traditional or

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as you call it, more procedural
model, how can we improve, right,

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how can we make math catch up
with the times? I guess right?

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And I know, like we've already
talked about, there's some discomfort on

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the part of everyone, but especially
I'm gonna just say again, especially parents.

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I think, right, it's just
so different, and even some more

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veteran teachers who may have gotten into
education at a time where teaching math looked

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very different. So um, A
lot of a large part of my audience,

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of course, are educators. Many
of them are classroom teachers. I

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don't know for sure how many our
math teachers, but I would love if

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we could sort of kind of break
this question down into three parts. My

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question really is like, how can
we improve and how can we find that

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happy place in terms of marrying the
conceptual with the procedural as classroom teachers,

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as sort of those intermediate level leaders, like people in my position as coaches.

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Now in my district, we're fortunate
enough to have math coaches, literacy

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coaches, and digital learning coaches.
So there are content and based coaches but

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I know that a lot of districts
aren't fortunate enough to have them. Maybe

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they have a department chair, maybe
their administrators are still really the ones who

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are the instructional leaders, So how
then can the administrators support that? So

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really it's the same question, but
if you if you could tackle it from

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like how to teachers help, how
to coaches and other sort of middle level

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leaders help, and then administrators.
Yeah, well, let's start with classroom

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teachers, and you know, we'll
kind of work our way up the up

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the chain there. But with classroom
teachers, I think one of the best

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things that you possibly can do is
that before you teach a concept, when

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you think about this. You know, some people, as we're recording this,

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are going into the weekend, and
you know, they are thinking about

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what am I teaching next week?
And when I think about what I'm teaching

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next week, am I planning to
tell students exactly how to do something?

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And if that's the case, I'm
essentially trying to teach the students how to

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mimic or how to memorize steps and
procedures, right, which really means we're

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not really focusing too much on the
conceptual understanding Rather, what we could do

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is we could say, hm,
what is it that I'm trying to teach?

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I think about the intentionality of my
lesson, and then I start to

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think about, like why does it
work? What is it that I'm doing

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that helps to make this thing work? And if you were to google that

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thing and say why does this work? Or conceptually might be a good word

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to put in there as well,
you will find that stuff is out there,

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right, like the content is out
there. So if you actually are

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looking for it and you actually think
about it and you say, you know

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what, I want to actually help
you understand why. So if I think

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about integers, like why when I
add or multiplying integers is probably a really

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good one, Like why when you
multiply two negative numbers, is it a

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positive? Like when you ask middle
school teachers, they typically say it's just

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a rule. Like I just tell
them, this is what it is.

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But the reality is there's a reason
why. And the part that's really tough,

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and I think this is the hardest
part of all is being okay to

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say, wow, I actually don't
know why. I'm the teacher and I

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don't know why that actually happened,
And this is happening to John and I

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all the time. Like when we
have a concept and we're going in to

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help a teacher or help in a
school, we think about that concept.

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There's times where we're like, I
have no idea why that works, and

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we've always done it, but if
we want to teach kids to actually understand

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this, then we need a better
understanding of it. So it really ultimately

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comes down to us doing more math. And the more people you can do

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that math with, the better off
you'll be. So if we can do

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that with a partner like another colleague, if we can do that with a

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00:30:14.640 --> 00:30:18.599
large grade band of educators where we're
all trying to tackle it in different ways,

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what you start to see is what
really happens in a math classroom when

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kids are given the opportunity to problem
solve, Because Dan, you're going to

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solve it, likely in a different
way than the way I'm going to.

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What we're going to notice is the
research will show there will be a majority

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that are going to solve it in
a particular way, and then there's going

402
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to be smaller pockets solving it in
different ways, and those give us clues

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as to where students are along that
trajectory. So my big takeaway there is

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figuring out what is it that I'm
going to teach and why it works and

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then actually doing the math and that
will give you such a huge payoff even

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if you aren't blessed to have say
a coaching model or a lot of MATHPD

407
00:31:00.599 --> 00:31:03.400
going on in your district at the
current time, John, why don't you

408
00:31:03.400 --> 00:31:07.079
take the next class? Well,
I was just going to add add to

409
00:31:07.200 --> 00:31:11.400
like the next step onto that.
Like you you alluded to it by having

410
00:31:11.640 --> 00:31:15.160
you know, part part of the
teacher prep that they're doing is is doing

411
00:31:15.160 --> 00:31:19.480
what you said. But then in
the classroom and you also you also mention

412
00:31:19.559 --> 00:31:23.319
this, but it is worth say
mentioning again is that you're giving the students

413
00:31:23.400 --> 00:31:30.839
or crafting experience for the students to
experience a situation before you're telling them that

414
00:31:30.920 --> 00:31:33.759
situation. So so I think like
to make sure that we are very clear

415
00:31:34.160 --> 00:31:38.119
you can build you you can tell
conceptual understanding to a student, it doesn't

416
00:31:38.160 --> 00:31:42.599
mean they're going to like grasp it
and understand it or experience say why that

417
00:31:42.640 --> 00:31:47.319
works. And I think that's that's
a bigger piece for us, is we

418
00:31:47.359 --> 00:31:49.599
want to make sure that our students
are are the ones doing the thinking in

419
00:31:49.640 --> 00:31:52.839
the classroom. It's too often that
I thought, you know, thinking back

420
00:31:52.880 --> 00:31:56.799
to my you know, my first
ten years of teaching, and I was

421
00:31:56.880 --> 00:32:00.480
doing all of the thinking in the
classroom by giving everybody they needed instead of

422
00:32:00.720 --> 00:32:05.759
instead of holding that back until it
was until it was really needed and sometimes

423
00:32:05.799 --> 00:32:08.640
just not needed. For you to
be the one that's the gatekeeper of knowledge.

424
00:32:08.680 --> 00:32:12.359
A lot of times you can build
on what students are showing you,

425
00:32:12.440 --> 00:32:16.160
Like Kyle said, is there you
may be showing you and maybe your job

426
00:32:16.319 --> 00:32:20.960
is to make sure it is your
job to make sure that you're tying some

427
00:32:21.039 --> 00:32:25.160
of these thought processes together to get
at the intentionality that you've you've decided on

428
00:32:25.319 --> 00:32:30.920
in uh in the forefront of that
of that lesson. And that's that's an

429
00:32:30.039 --> 00:32:35.559
art that's that takes practice because we're
we've come from a system that didn't see,

430
00:32:35.599 --> 00:32:38.880
that didn't try, that didn't weren't
trained on being flexible in the classroom

431
00:32:39.559 --> 00:32:45.440
for say, seeing this student's solution
on that problem, this student's got that

432
00:32:45.480 --> 00:32:49.279
different solution. How do I blend
those together so that everybody makes sense of

433
00:32:49.319 --> 00:32:52.240
both and how does that tie to
my my actual learning goal for the day

434
00:32:52.279 --> 00:32:55.400
that as I said that that takes
time, debts takes effort, that takes

435
00:32:55.440 --> 00:33:00.240
training. We've got to we've got
to bring our our our teachers comfort level

436
00:33:00.279 --> 00:33:06.000
with mathematics up first and that and
then we can kind of layer in the

437
00:33:06.039 --> 00:33:08.599
pedagogy piece after. And I think, I think, what's happening in MATHPD

438
00:33:08.799 --> 00:33:13.480
right now with with you know,
if you've got you know, your leaders

439
00:33:13.519 --> 00:33:15.880
listening, going like we're going to
make sure we have MATHPD happening over here,

440
00:33:15.920 --> 00:33:19.160
and we've got our math coaches doing
this here. I think a lot

441
00:33:19.200 --> 00:33:24.160
of I think social media helped with
this this issue. Kyle and I are

442
00:33:24.160 --> 00:33:28.319
experiencing with all the districts we're working
with that we actually have to take a

443
00:33:28.359 --> 00:33:32.960
step back and help our teachers understand
the mathematics first and then bring in pedagogy

444
00:33:34.200 --> 00:33:38.079
next. Whereas there's a lot of
flashiness with pedagogy happening right now, and

445
00:33:38.119 --> 00:33:44.160
they're like layering on this pedagogy and
then realizing afterwards that it's not making a

446
00:33:44.200 --> 00:33:50.240
difference because teachers still are trying new
strategies in the classroom for engagement or for

447
00:33:50.400 --> 00:33:53.000
understanding, but they themselves are not
understanding that math. So We've got to

448
00:33:53.039 --> 00:33:59.920
take that step back first and in
build those those those teachers understanding of math

449
00:34:00.240 --> 00:34:01.799
at all levels, because you know, I have, like I said before,

450
00:34:01.839 --> 00:34:07.319
I have a degree in mathematics,
but still needed to learn conceptually how

451
00:34:07.640 --> 00:34:13.239
mathematics can be represented with different models, different strategies. I was always that

452
00:34:13.360 --> 00:34:16.559
I knew this the one way and
that was it. And once you see

453
00:34:16.679 --> 00:34:22.320
that there are different ways of modeling
things and using different strategies, mathematics is

454
00:34:22.360 --> 00:34:27.079
such a beautiful subject to kind of
teach in that case, to address to

455
00:34:27.119 --> 00:34:31.639
adjust dan the the the next piece
which is which is thinking about going up

456
00:34:31.719 --> 00:34:37.519
up the chain a little bit in
helping say leaders think about think about the

457
00:34:37.559 --> 00:34:42.559
math program itself. And that's that's
actually a lot of the work that Kyle

458
00:34:42.599 --> 00:34:45.280
and I are doing now, UM, is that we are helping school districts,

459
00:34:45.719 --> 00:34:51.599
schools themselves strengthen their math program UM. And a lot of the time

460
00:34:51.679 --> 00:34:54.920
we focus on six areas. UM. We've talked about a few even here

461
00:34:54.960 --> 00:34:59.360
today that we haven't really named.
We kind of we we said, um,

462
00:34:59.519 --> 00:35:02.079
we we talked about pedagogy. That's
one of the areas that we want

463
00:35:02.119 --> 00:35:07.039
to be strong in with our with
our teachers. We talked about content knowledge

464
00:35:07.039 --> 00:35:13.840
itself uh UM and the the UH
the the understanding of the mathematics. That's

465
00:35:13.920 --> 00:35:16.559
a second area, but a but
an area I think that we need to

466
00:35:16.559 --> 00:35:21.480
make sure we focus on, especially
with the leadership side, the the administration

467
00:35:21.599 --> 00:35:25.280
side, or even higher than that
UM and also even the coaching side is

468
00:35:25.800 --> 00:35:30.280
UH one that I think is often
overlooked, which which we call we call

469
00:35:30.360 --> 00:35:36.400
like a like a vision side like
UM. And this is about setting the

470
00:35:36.519 --> 00:35:42.119
vision for the math district or the
math program that the entire district wants to

471
00:35:42.920 --> 00:35:47.039
implement. And oftentimes when you you
ask someone to read their math vision for

472
00:35:47.320 --> 00:35:54.079
or their math school or district improvement
program or improvement plan UH that that statement

473
00:35:54.199 --> 00:36:00.960
is very lofty and and very vague
UM and and they'll they'll state, we're

474
00:36:00.960 --> 00:36:04.920
gonna, you know, we're gonna
bring up students understanding through this. But

475
00:36:04.960 --> 00:36:07.679
then it's it's kind of like,
well, hours, we'll go up by

476
00:36:07.719 --> 00:36:10.519
ten percent or whatever, not even
it's not even number base usually you know,

477
00:36:10.599 --> 00:36:14.360
it's it's kind of like it's just
it's just kind of very very kind

478
00:36:14.400 --> 00:36:19.480
of flowery language. And what we
what we find when we kind of dig

479
00:36:19.519 --> 00:36:23.039
deep with districts that we work with
is is that they need like a more

480
00:36:23.239 --> 00:36:29.760
streamlined, a more specific goal U
set of goals to to follow in a

481
00:36:30.280 --> 00:36:35.920
and setting that vision is so important
because you know, if if if we're

482
00:36:36.000 --> 00:36:39.760
not all working towards the same goal, then everybody's all over the place,

483
00:36:39.760 --> 00:36:43.639
and if we're all focusing on all
these things, then we're really not focusing

484
00:36:43.639 --> 00:36:46.239
on any of them and no one's
getting the actual professional development that it's as

485
00:36:46.239 --> 00:36:52.199
important as as what the district is
decided. So at the leadership level,

486
00:36:52.239 --> 00:36:55.119
one of those areas, uh that
that we should focus on is is really

487
00:36:55.159 --> 00:37:02.639
setting clear goals that are measurable and
actionable in developing those out and then communicating

488
00:37:02.679 --> 00:37:07.159
those down the line. And that's
like every time we have a staff meeting,

489
00:37:07.559 --> 00:37:10.079
the goals get stated about mathematics.
Every time we have just you know,

490
00:37:10.599 --> 00:37:15.559
maybe it's a math mathe meeting of
all the math teachers, it's like

491
00:37:15.559 --> 00:37:20.000
a PD day, the math the
vision gets stated. If there's an email

492
00:37:20.039 --> 00:37:23.360
that goes out related to mathematics,
the visions are right right at the top.

493
00:37:23.400 --> 00:37:28.559
It's it's something that we need to
bond our teachers together so that we're

494
00:37:28.599 --> 00:37:32.920
all working towards the same goal and
it just doesn't happen in districts I like

495
00:37:34.039 --> 00:37:36.880
to. I don't know, this
is just something about me. I like

496
00:37:36.960 --> 00:37:38.880
to kind of boil things down,
like bottom line it right, and I

497
00:37:38.880 --> 00:37:44.920
think in doing so it helps me
kind of create takeaways. I think some

498
00:37:44.960 --> 00:37:46.800
of my takeaways, based on what
both of you guys have been saying,

499
00:37:47.320 --> 00:37:52.239
are things like, first and foremost, growth mindset comes to mind. I

500
00:37:52.239 --> 00:37:54.480
don't know if you guys know this, my listeners probably do. Much of

501
00:37:54.519 --> 00:37:59.920
my doctoral research was in the area
of how leaders can support growth mindset and

502
00:38:00.079 --> 00:38:05.719
teachers, and I think that,
especially in the area of math education,

503
00:38:06.159 --> 00:38:10.639
there's still a lot of room for
growth in terms of that mindset shift out

504
00:38:10.719 --> 00:38:19.199
of the traditional and more toward that
conceptual based model that I'm going to call

505
00:38:19.280 --> 00:38:25.679
it the real world relevancy aspect of
math that may have been missing when people

506
00:38:25.719 --> 00:38:30.480
like us old guys went to school
way back when. And then the other

507
00:38:30.519 --> 00:38:35.440
thing, as you're saying, you
guys both kind of mentioned this too,

508
00:38:35.519 --> 00:38:42.400
like where sometimes maybe teachers might be
too quick, let's say, to go

509
00:38:42.519 --> 00:38:46.559
more toward I just want to try
all these pedagogical type strategies. It's like,

510
00:38:46.599 --> 00:38:50.800
well, we really need to make
sure that we're I don't want to

511
00:38:50.800 --> 00:38:55.559
say mastered, but we're confident enough
with the actual math content in order to

512
00:38:57.239 --> 00:39:00.559
kind of proceed from there. And
then I love, John, what you

513
00:39:00.559 --> 00:39:05.519
were just saying about establishing that vision. I talk a lot about transformational leadership,

514
00:39:05.559 --> 00:39:10.760
and so much of that is that
that mission driven organization where you,

515
00:39:10.800 --> 00:39:15.119
as the leader, are trying to
get and this is maybe where you were

516
00:39:15.119 --> 00:39:19.239
talking about how it might even be
like further up the line than just school

517
00:39:19.239 --> 00:39:22.599
based administrators. It's like we need
everybody to buy in, right. We

518
00:39:22.639 --> 00:39:29.039
want to empower the school administrators to
then empower their staff. Your point was

519
00:39:29.079 --> 00:39:32.239
great, it was really well taken. Like if you're if math is a

520
00:39:32.239 --> 00:39:37.440
real focus, right and you want
to get more specific and more strategic about

521
00:39:37.480 --> 00:39:42.440
it, you're talking about it at
gatherings, faculty meetings, PLC meetings,

522
00:39:42.480 --> 00:39:45.639
like whenever you can, you gotta
you gotta name it, and you gotta

523
00:39:45.719 --> 00:39:51.800
focus on it, and it can't
be so vague. I can't believe how

524
00:39:51.880 --> 00:39:54.320
quickly time passes when we're talking about
math. I really didn't expect this.

525
00:39:54.360 --> 00:39:58.760
We're like thirty four minutes. Then, what haven't I asked you, I

526
00:39:59.079 --> 00:40:02.599
really appreciate it, and you kind
of you were able to do this without

527
00:40:02.639 --> 00:40:07.239
me asking about what you guys do
with you know, make math moments,

528
00:40:07.280 --> 00:40:10.400
and it sounds like you guys are
doing some really great work with districts.

529
00:40:10.400 --> 00:40:14.519
But as we start to wrap up, what haven't I asked you that you

530
00:40:14.559 --> 00:40:16.920
really want to make sure you get
in here. Kyle will go to you

531
00:40:17.000 --> 00:40:20.400
next. Well, I was just
going to say, like, first of

532
00:40:20.400 --> 00:40:22.440
all, like I think you nailed
it. You're you're actually really helped us

533
00:40:22.440 --> 00:40:27.239
out by talking about growth mindset because
that's one of the other areas, and

534
00:40:27.559 --> 00:40:30.719
you know, we haven't articulated it
in this way, but when folks come

535
00:40:30.760 --> 00:40:34.920
to our website and they start to
dig into these six areas we're talking about,

536
00:40:35.599 --> 00:40:39.199
we've actually sort of made this analogy
of a tree. If you envision

537
00:40:39.239 --> 00:40:42.920
a tree, this is your math
program and you can think of it as

538
00:40:42.960 --> 00:40:45.280
a classroom teacher, or you can
think of it as a district leader.

539
00:40:45.480 --> 00:40:50.480
They very slightly depending on which version
you're looking at. If you're a classroom

540
00:40:50.519 --> 00:40:53.239
teacher, it's going to be more
specific to your world and your environment.

541
00:40:53.400 --> 00:40:57.440
If you're a district leader, it's
going to be focused in your world and

542
00:40:57.920 --> 00:41:02.320
leading all the educators in the system. But that educator mindset and beliefs is

543
00:41:02.320 --> 00:41:07.440
where we nestle growth mindset, and
that's one of these other big pieces.

544
00:41:07.480 --> 00:41:10.159
And you know, so we've talked
about a number of parts of this tree,

545
00:41:10.400 --> 00:41:15.880
and ultimately what we do with districts
is we introduce them to the idea

546
00:41:15.880 --> 00:41:19.280
of the tree, the trunk being
the leadership portion. This is the mission

547
00:41:19.599 --> 00:41:23.000
is this is what will like stand
tall in a storm, right like,

548
00:41:23.039 --> 00:41:27.480
you need that to be so strong, you need to be balanced, you

549
00:41:27.519 --> 00:41:31.000
need it to be sturdy. And
then underneath the ground, what's holding that

550
00:41:31.039 --> 00:41:36.000
trunk together is that content knowledge.
That's the roots of the tree. So

551
00:41:36.039 --> 00:41:39.880
we've sort of talked about those two
pieces. And then we've got pd structure

552
00:41:39.920 --> 00:41:44.679
in there, which is our limbs, and then we've got branches with which

553
00:41:44.719 --> 00:41:47.880
is pedagogy, and we've got leaves
which is the resources in your classroom.

554
00:41:49.159 --> 00:41:52.280
And then finally the sun, soil, water, which is that mindset Piecet

555
00:41:52.320 --> 00:41:58.760
you articulated. So ultimately, what
we do with districts as we actually usually

556
00:41:58.800 --> 00:42:01.519
start them, and you're friends here
listening on the podcasts are more than welcome

557
00:42:01.559 --> 00:42:06.440
if they want to try this themselves. We have a screener and we give

558
00:42:06.480 --> 00:42:08.639
it to our district leaders, but
we also give it to the educators we

559
00:42:08.679 --> 00:42:14.119
work with, where it'll actually ask
them some questions on a Likekard scale and

560
00:42:14.159 --> 00:42:17.039
it will take them through all six
parts of the tree so that they can

561
00:42:17.079 --> 00:42:23.239
get a sense of where their program
is flourishing and where maybe their program they

562
00:42:23.320 --> 00:42:27.559
might want to focus some of their
energy. The reality is is that we

563
00:42:27.599 --> 00:42:30.719
can strengthen all the parts of our
tree at every time. Right we know

564
00:42:30.840 --> 00:42:34.599
that growth mindset, we will never
get there. The tree is never going

565
00:42:34.639 --> 00:42:37.760
to stop growing. We want to
continually grow it. But what will happen

566
00:42:37.920 --> 00:42:40.679
is as they go through, we're
going to ask them some questions and some

567
00:42:40.719 --> 00:42:45.400
of them are challenging questions, like
they're gonna go huh, I never like

568
00:42:45.599 --> 00:42:50.360
I never thought about that before,
and they might go closer to a zero

569
00:42:50.480 --> 00:42:52.639
on that question because they were unaware
of it. And what will happen at

570
00:42:52.679 --> 00:42:58.440
the end is will actually get a
report generated that will give them some actionable

571
00:42:58.639 --> 00:43:00.000
steps. So you had to you
know, what do we do in the

572
00:43:00.000 --> 00:43:02.400
classroom? What do we do if
we're a district leader, Like what do

573
00:43:02.440 --> 00:43:07.599
we do in these cases, Well, this report's actually designed so that you

574
00:43:07.599 --> 00:43:12.360
know, when John does this screener, out will pop a personalized report that

575
00:43:12.480 --> 00:43:15.400
focuses on the area that he might
want to focus his attention on. And

576
00:43:15.719 --> 00:43:19.840
maybe it is the trunk and it's
that leadership piece, or if you're in

577
00:43:19.880 --> 00:43:22.039
the classroom, we call that like
your pillars, your classroom pillars, the

578
00:43:22.119 --> 00:43:25.840
leadership piece of your classroom. And
then we have some next steps that they

579
00:43:25.880 --> 00:43:30.400
can engage in through a lot of
the resources we provide freely on our website.

580
00:43:30.480 --> 00:43:35.039
So I would say that would be
a great next step for all of

581
00:43:35.079 --> 00:43:38.599
your listeners if they're intrigued here and
they're going, wow, there's a lot

582
00:43:38.639 --> 00:43:43.440
to this. The one thing I
can say is that this is a journey.

583
00:43:43.440 --> 00:43:46.000
And by all means all the districts
we work with, we try to

584
00:43:46.039 --> 00:43:51.639
tell them like you cannot like people
want to set these lofty goals, like

585
00:43:51.719 --> 00:43:54.639
John said, but then at the
end of the year, monitoring usually doesn't

586
00:43:54.639 --> 00:43:58.800
really happen very well, and then
all of a sudden goal shifts and now

587
00:43:58.920 --> 00:44:01.360
next year we're doing something, and
we just we keep on chasing our tail.

588
00:44:01.519 --> 00:44:05.840
So what we try to do is
we want to set up districts and

589
00:44:05.920 --> 00:44:12.079
also classroom teachers with actionable next steps
so that they can actually start making some

590
00:44:12.199 --> 00:44:15.800
gains and start strengthening different areas of
their tree. And then we always encourage

591
00:44:15.840 --> 00:44:19.719
them, Hey, after a little
while, come back and try that screener

592
00:44:19.719 --> 00:44:22.519
again, and like, let's see
where you are now, Like does it

593
00:44:22.599 --> 00:44:27.639
say continue working down that path or
maybe you want to change your attention a

594
00:44:27.679 --> 00:44:30.639
little bit and start going down another
path to start strengthening that area of the

595
00:44:30.679 --> 00:44:36.360
tree. So hopefully that will be
something that's useful for your team, because

596
00:44:36.400 --> 00:44:39.400
I know we could talk here all
night about math, but I know you

597
00:44:39.440 --> 00:44:43.559
already told us you try to keep
these episodes short, and I think we're

598
00:44:44.000 --> 00:44:47.199
stretching it pretty far here today.
It really has been a great conversation.

599
00:44:47.440 --> 00:44:52.199
And all right, John, I'll
let you. I was just gonna say,

600
00:44:52.760 --> 00:44:54.599
Kyle talked all about the screener but
didn't tell anybody where to go and

601
00:44:54.880 --> 00:45:00.199
try. They just have to find
it aimless. So head on over to

602
00:45:00.239 --> 00:45:06.280
make maathmoments dot com forward slash grow, makemathmoments dot com forard slash grow,

603
00:45:06.480 --> 00:45:08.119
and you could take the screener and
then, like Kyle said, it gives

604
00:45:08.119 --> 00:45:12.639
you a full report on how to
make improvements in your district or in the

605
00:45:12.639 --> 00:45:15.599
classroom after your classroom teacher. You
guys are pros. I was just going

606
00:45:15.679 --> 00:45:19.440
to ask you where they can find
that, but you gotta covered. So

607
00:45:19.719 --> 00:45:22.519
I appreciate that. I appreciate the
conversation. This has been great. I

608
00:45:22.079 --> 00:45:25.519
really didn't know what to expect.
I'm being honest, you know, I

609
00:45:25.519 --> 00:45:29.119
started the conversation saying, like,
I'm not a math guy. I was,

610
00:45:29.480 --> 00:45:31.519
you know, an e LA classroom
teacher. I'm also certified in music,

611
00:45:31.599 --> 00:45:36.639
Like math is just it's not something
I really have to think about that

612
00:45:36.719 --> 00:45:40.320
much, but I do have to
were you know, I support math teachers

613
00:45:40.519 --> 00:45:47.360
and and my leader listeners, whether
they're administrators, school administrators, district administrators,

614
00:45:47.360 --> 00:45:51.440
they support math teachers. So,
um, this is some great stuff.

615
00:45:51.480 --> 00:45:54.519
And like I said, some of
my bigger takeaways out of this conversation

616
00:45:54.679 --> 00:46:00.360
or are things that I know that
I can look to him prove about myself

617
00:46:00.360 --> 00:46:07.280
in the way that I support math
teachers and the math system you know at

618
00:46:07.320 --> 00:46:10.000
my school. So I really appreciate
it. I do hope my listeners check

619
00:46:10.039 --> 00:46:15.920
out the tools and the resources there
at Makemath moments or make Yeah, makemath

620
00:46:15.000 --> 00:46:20.840
moments dot com or makemath moments dot
com slash grow. That is really hard

621
00:46:20.880 --> 00:46:25.239
to say. I admire you guys
just for saying yeah, it's very literati

622
00:46:25.400 --> 00:46:31.400
anyway, Kyle John, thank you
guys so much. Thanks time and congratulations

623
00:46:31.440 --> 00:46:35.039
on all the success and with you
know, everything you guys are doing,

624
00:46:35.079 --> 00:46:37.719
including your own podcast as well.
Yeah, thanks, thanks very much.

625
00:46:37.760 --> 00:46:40.840
Dan. Hey, hopefully it'll help
some people, uh you know, get

626
00:46:40.840 --> 00:46:45.920
over that sort of displeasure for teaching
math and get them excited about it.

627
00:46:45.960 --> 00:46:50.679
So if we can help, hopefully
people will come say hi, thanks Dan.

628
00:46:54.039 --> 00:46:58.760
Well, that's it for this episode. Thank you so much for listening.

629
00:46:59.159 --> 00:47:01.480
If you haven't done so yet,
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630
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631
00:47:06.920 --> 00:47:09.360
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00:47:19.639 --> 00:47:23.079
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