Lead Like a Teacher with Miriam Plotinsky

WEBVTT

1
00:00:00.280 --> 00:00:05.960
So teachers want leaders who support them
and value them and empower them. And

2
00:00:06.200 --> 00:00:12.199
leaders set out to value and support
and empower their teachers. So why can't

3
00:00:12.199 --> 00:00:16.760
that always happen? In this episode, I'm talking to Miriam Platynsky, author

4
00:00:17.079 --> 00:00:23.280
of Lead Like a Teacher, Stick
Around. Welcome to the Leader of Learning

5
00:00:23.320 --> 00:00:27.160
podcast. I'm your host, doctor
Dan Crinis, and this is where I

6
00:00:27.239 --> 00:00:33.920
help educators grow their impact as instructional
leaders because my research and leadership experiences have

7
00:00:34.079 --> 00:00:38.560
led me to understand that someone like
you, regardless of your role or your

8
00:00:38.600 --> 00:00:44.000
title, can have a tremendous impact
on your organization. I chat with inspiring

9
00:00:44.039 --> 00:00:49.159
guests who are truly making an impact
as instructional leaders. Whether this is your

10
00:00:49.200 --> 00:00:53.119
first time listening or you come back
for more, I hope you've subscribed to

11
00:00:53.159 --> 00:00:56.759
this show on your preferred podcast apps
so you don't miss any of the great

12
00:00:56.799 --> 00:01:00.600
episodes, topics, or guests.
Anyway, I'm so glad you've tuned in.

13
00:01:00.920 --> 00:01:14.200
Now let's get started, all right, Leader of Learning, Welcome to

14
00:01:14.239 --> 00:01:18.000
episode one sixty. If you're just
joining us here for the first time,

15
00:01:18.079 --> 00:01:21.280
thank you so much. If you're
coming back for more, well thank you

16
00:01:21.319 --> 00:01:26.319
too. I really appreciate everyone listening, and I know that you're gonna love

17
00:01:26.439 --> 00:01:30.319
this episode. I'll get to it
in just a minute before I do just

18
00:01:30.359 --> 00:01:34.359
some housekeeping first and foremost. We're
getting close to the end of the school

19
00:01:34.439 --> 00:01:40.239
year, and I think my listeners
in the western and southern parts of the

20
00:01:40.280 --> 00:01:44.280
country are really wrapping up their school
year right around now. If you're listening

21
00:01:44.319 --> 00:01:48.799
to this in the end of May, I have a few more weeks here

22
00:01:48.799 --> 00:01:52.319
where I am. We end up
in the middle of June, but I

23
00:01:52.359 --> 00:01:57.040
just want to wish everyone a very
successful and healthy and hopefully happy end of

24
00:01:57.079 --> 00:02:01.239
their school year. It's been kind
of a wild ride this year, but

25
00:02:01.560 --> 00:02:06.200
we made it and we're just about
there. We see the light at the

26
00:02:06.319 --> 00:02:10.840
end of the tunnelso congratulations for that. If you're one of my educator friends

27
00:02:10.879 --> 00:02:14.919
that are listening right now, I
also just want to remind you, and

28
00:02:14.960 --> 00:02:16.560
I know I said this in the
last episode, but again, if you're

29
00:02:16.599 --> 00:02:21.759
just joining us, I, in
addition to this podcast, do like to

30
00:02:21.800 --> 00:02:27.479
create a lot of other content,
whether it's YouTube videos or I've been trying

31
00:02:27.759 --> 00:02:32.439
to be better at blogging lately.
But everything that we do here, including

32
00:02:32.520 --> 00:02:38.120
some products and services that are for
sale, let's say, like some publications

33
00:02:38.400 --> 00:02:44.759
and online courses and even some coaching
services that I'm starting to offer. You

34
00:02:44.800 --> 00:02:50.080
can find all that information in my
newsletter. So I would encourage you and

35
00:02:50.159 --> 00:02:53.360
invite you to please go ahead and
sign up for my newsletter. I don't

36
00:02:53.400 --> 00:02:58.240
send it all the time, but
I promise you I won't spam you or

37
00:02:58.240 --> 00:03:01.879
anything like that, and be valuable
content that will come to you about every

38
00:03:01.879 --> 00:03:07.680
week or so. To sign up, head to Leader of Learning dot com

39
00:03:07.719 --> 00:03:13.800
slash subscribe or Leader of Learning dot
com slash news. As always, those

40
00:03:13.840 --> 00:03:16.680
links are in the show notes,
So on any podcast app that you're listening

41
00:03:16.680 --> 00:03:22.199
on right now, just head over
to the show notes and click the link

42
00:03:22.319 --> 00:03:28.599
to join my email newsletter. Now
onto this episode. When Miriam Platynsky reached

43
00:03:28.599 --> 00:03:35.039
out to me for an interview opportunity, I definitely said yes pretty quickly because

44
00:03:35.159 --> 00:03:39.599
her book is called Lead Like a
Teacher, and I feel like that speaks

45
00:03:39.639 --> 00:03:43.919
to me and my mission here at
Leader of Learning very much, and I

46
00:03:44.000 --> 00:03:47.039
was really excited to talk to her, and I loved her sharing some of

47
00:03:47.080 --> 00:03:54.840
her ideas about how leaders school leaders
can really bring their staffs and their organizations

48
00:03:54.879 --> 00:04:02.360
together and truly value and empower the
voices of all stakeholders, but especially those

49
00:04:02.599 --> 00:04:06.400
teachers and staff members who have a
lot to offer and bring a lot to

50
00:04:06.439 --> 00:04:11.000
the table. I can't wait for
you to listen. Coming up after these

51
00:04:11.039 --> 00:04:15.000
messages is my interview with Miriam Platynsky. All right, welcome back, Leader

52
00:04:15.000 --> 00:04:19.399
of Learning. I'm excited to bring
on Miriam Platynsky, who is an instructional

53
00:04:19.480 --> 00:04:25.319
specialist with Montgomery County Public Schools in
Maryland, where she has taught and led

54
00:04:25.360 --> 00:04:30.240
for more than twenty years. She
is a National Board Certified teacher and certified

55
00:04:30.240 --> 00:04:34.000
administrator, and the author of a
few different books. Here we have writing

56
00:04:34.040 --> 00:04:39.680
their future selves, Teach More,
Hoverless, and one that I think is

57
00:04:39.759 --> 00:04:43.759
most recent and one that I'm looking
forward to talking to her about lead like

58
00:04:43.839 --> 00:04:46.600
a teacher. So Miriam, welcome
to the show. And if there's anything

59
00:04:46.639 --> 00:04:50.240
that you can offer the listeners in
the way of more about who you are

60
00:04:50.279 --> 00:04:54.879
and where you are and what you
do, please go for it. Hi,

61
00:04:54.879 --> 00:04:58.319
thanks for having me. I appreciate
it. Yeah, so everything you

62
00:04:58.360 --> 00:05:02.759
said it's correct. I have I've
been working in many different sort of job

63
00:05:02.839 --> 00:05:08.720
roles and positions and lenses in a
school dress in a school district for a

64
00:05:09.560 --> 00:05:14.759
while. And the thing about where
where I sit is that I sit from

65
00:05:14.920 --> 00:05:18.439
sort of in a strange middle ground
between teaching and leading. So I've been

66
00:05:18.439 --> 00:05:21.399
in classrooms, I've been on administration
teams, and where I wound up is

67
00:05:21.439 --> 00:05:25.560
in more of a coaching role where
I work with leaders and teachers to try

68
00:05:25.600 --> 00:05:30.120
to help them figure out anything from
instructional ideas to professional development to school improvement

69
00:05:30.839 --> 00:05:34.959
within curriculum instruction. So it's wearing
a lot of hats on a different basis.

70
00:05:34.959 --> 00:05:38.360
And then what I call my side
hustle as the writing thing with the

71
00:05:39.079 --> 00:05:43.360
books and the articles. That's great. I mean, I've definitely been in

72
00:05:43.399 --> 00:05:48.560
that middle level and not quite admin, but in leadership roles for a while

73
00:05:48.639 --> 00:05:55.800
myself. I've I've dabbled in administration, but at this point I'm a coach

74
00:05:55.839 --> 00:05:59.959
as well, and I don't know
that I do too much coaching of administrators,

75
00:06:00.439 --> 00:06:04.480
but I know certainly how you feel
about how important it is, and

76
00:06:05.800 --> 00:06:09.439
I do. I like the title
and I like the concept of this book,

77
00:06:09.519 --> 00:06:13.319
so lead like a teacher, and
I was kind of reading up on

78
00:06:13.360 --> 00:06:15.639
it a little bit before we started
recording here a few minutes ago, and

79
00:06:16.439 --> 00:06:19.560
it says in the description here,
it says, far too often teachers and

80
00:06:19.600 --> 00:06:27.920
administrators are adversaries within a school or
a district and display a mutual distrust and

81
00:06:28.040 --> 00:06:31.480
disrespect for others perspectives. And I
guess that's kind of where I wanted to

82
00:06:31.519 --> 00:06:35.000
start, is if you could,
of course talk about the book, but

83
00:06:35.319 --> 00:06:41.759
let's start with that distrust that happens
between teachers and administrators. You know,

84
00:06:42.240 --> 00:06:46.319
my audience is filled with both teachers
and administrators. But I do like and

85
00:06:46.360 --> 00:06:49.160
it's it's right above me here if
you're watching on video, you know I

86
00:06:49.199 --> 00:06:55.439
do like saying that I enjoy helping
educators grow their impact as instructional leaders.

87
00:06:56.240 --> 00:07:00.800
And so's it'll be an interesting discussion
here because of the way my audience is

88
00:07:00.839 --> 00:07:04.759
split between teachers and administrators. But
what would you say about that distrust?

89
00:07:05.199 --> 00:07:09.439
So what I call it, and
I started using this phrase when I was

90
00:07:09.439 --> 00:07:12.959
writing this book, I call it
the empathy gap. And essentially, we're

91
00:07:13.000 --> 00:07:16.040
all in schools doing jobs that look
like one thing on the surface, but

92
00:07:16.079 --> 00:07:18.959
are really something else. So if
I'm a teacher looking an administrator, I

93
00:07:19.000 --> 00:07:21.519
assume they're doing a bunch of things, or maybe not doing a bunch of

94
00:07:21.519 --> 00:07:26.480
things. The administrator might be making
the same assumptions about teachers. The issue

95
00:07:26.519 --> 00:07:28.879
is that in this is you know, this is the way I see it.

96
00:07:29.199 --> 00:07:32.279
The longer a time and administrators out
of the classroom, the less they

97
00:07:32.399 --> 00:07:35.680
really have that same empathy for what
it's like to be a classroom teacher.

98
00:07:35.800 --> 00:07:40.600
Especially, things have really been escalating
and changing a lot more quickly in the

99
00:07:40.639 --> 00:07:44.920
past three to five years for teachers. And the person who wrote one of

100
00:07:44.959 --> 00:07:47.839
the four words this book, Damon
Montelione, he taught a class when he

101
00:07:47.879 --> 00:07:51.240
was a principal. He did this
in twenty nineteen high school principle and one

102
00:07:51.279 --> 00:07:56.360
thing he writes about is how he
walked into a classroom everything was different,

103
00:07:56.600 --> 00:07:59.360
and not just the technology, but
the way the kids were interacting. And

104
00:07:59.439 --> 00:08:01.399
now pandemic that's really what we're calling
it. I don't know if for a

105
00:08:01.399 --> 00:08:05.360
post pandemic or not, but you
know, kids are different, and we

106
00:08:05.439 --> 00:08:11.879
keep talking about that and how we
access learning and how we access the engagement.

107
00:08:11.160 --> 00:08:13.480
So that's the teaching side of it, and then on the leading side

108
00:08:13.480 --> 00:08:16.839
of it, people also have misconceptions. I remember one of the most hurtful

109
00:08:16.839 --> 00:08:20.480
things that someone once said to me
was when I went into more of a

110
00:08:20.519 --> 00:08:24.879
leadership role. They said, we've
lost you to an office. And I

111
00:08:24.920 --> 00:08:28.079
remember thinking, that's not what I'm
doing at all, Like I'm that's not

112
00:08:28.120 --> 00:08:31.639
my job and that's not how I
work. But that's the perception. So

113
00:08:31.720 --> 00:08:35.879
we have this thing where we wind
up being set up in a very adversarial

114
00:08:35.919 --> 00:08:39.600
way when there's really just a lack
of understanding and empathy about what the other

115
00:08:39.639 --> 00:08:43.200
person might be doing. In more
functional school spaces, that doesn't happen as

116
00:08:43.279 --> 00:08:48.039
much, but a lot of the
time it becomes a default. Like I

117
00:08:48.080 --> 00:08:52.159
said, I have dabbled in a
couple of administrative roles. Neither of them

118
00:08:52.240 --> 00:08:58.200
lasted very long. And you know, I've shared the story with the listeners

119
00:08:58.480 --> 00:09:03.039
of You Know my Audi in the
podcast before, but I'll tell you so

120
00:09:03.120 --> 00:09:09.120
much of that personally for me was
because I really enjoy being that instructional leader

121
00:09:09.480 --> 00:09:16.080
that unfortunately I don't think school based, you know, school level administrators really

122
00:09:16.080 --> 00:09:20.720
get to do at this point as
often as they would like. And it's

123
00:09:20.799 --> 00:09:24.080
interesting, I don't know about you. Well, I read your bio.

124
00:09:24.159 --> 00:09:28.559
It says you've been teaching twenty plus
years. I'm in year seventeen right now.

125
00:09:28.600 --> 00:09:33.440
And I really think that around the
time that I started teaching was when

126
00:09:35.440 --> 00:09:41.919
people started hoping anyway or looking to
school leaders to be more instructional leaders.

127
00:09:41.639 --> 00:09:43.840
I don't know about you. I
don't want to put words in your mouth,

128
00:09:43.879 --> 00:09:48.840
but I feel like we're starting to
go in the other direction again,

129
00:09:48.919 --> 00:09:54.360
where at least in my experience,
and this is very quickly, you know,

130
00:09:54.639 --> 00:09:58.960
not quickly, but when we were
as we were returning to school I

131
00:09:58.000 --> 00:10:01.919
won't say coming out of the pen
demic like you were saying, but returning

132
00:10:01.960 --> 00:10:07.559
to schools full time in person,
there was a lot of behaviors that we

133
00:10:07.600 --> 00:10:13.320
needed to deal with. So in
my experience as a school administrator in that

134
00:10:15.000 --> 00:10:20.360
era, it was very difficult to
get into classrooms to be an instructional leader,

135
00:10:20.399 --> 00:10:24.039
to really be present and visible.
I don't want to say I was

136
00:10:24.120 --> 00:10:26.519
holding up in my office. It
was actually the opposite. I felt like

137
00:10:26.600 --> 00:10:31.200
I was running around the school like
crazy all day long. All of this

138
00:10:31.320 --> 00:10:35.960
to say, how what are you
seeing? And if you're seeing the same

139
00:10:35.000 --> 00:10:41.600
thing where school administrators are having a
hard time carrying that torch of being an

140
00:10:41.600 --> 00:10:46.159
instructional leader, is that part of
what you're suggesting when you say, lead

141
00:10:46.200 --> 00:10:50.879
like a teacher. So, first
of all, guests with the behaviors,

142
00:10:50.440 --> 00:10:54.039
we don't really know why yet.
I feel like we're assigning a lot of

143
00:10:54.240 --> 00:10:58.519
faulty causation or correlation. We're trying
to figure out why kids are acting out

144
00:10:58.600 --> 00:11:01.080
so much more than they used to, and we all theories about why that

145
00:11:01.159 --> 00:11:03.279
might be, but we don't know
for sure, and we probably won't know

146
00:11:03.360 --> 00:11:07.320
for another twenty years or so.
We've gathered more data and when we had

147
00:11:07.360 --> 00:11:11.720
more perspective with what's happened for administrators, you know, and this is this

148
00:11:11.759 --> 00:11:16.039
is really, as you say,
what teachers misunderstand. Administrators want to go

149
00:11:16.080 --> 00:11:18.639
into classrooms, they want to observe
instruction, they want to help with instruction.

150
00:11:18.840 --> 00:11:22.200
This is what you know ideally what
to do either day. That's it's

151
00:11:22.320 --> 00:11:26.559
it's the most empowering and the most
enriching thing and the most rewarding. The

152
00:11:26.639 --> 00:11:31.120
problem is you're so busy playing triage
and putting out fire after fire. You

153
00:11:31.200 --> 00:11:35.279
might have an observation schedule and then
a fight breaks out in the hallway and

154
00:11:35.279 --> 00:11:39.799
you're done. So what I propose
in this book is to figure out ways

155
00:11:39.279 --> 00:11:46.399
to create different systems around some of
the structures that get taken away when administrators

156
00:11:46.399 --> 00:11:50.360
are overburdened. So you know,
you mentioned getting into classrooms. So with

157
00:11:50.480 --> 00:11:54.679
observation or with coaching, or with
co teaching, how can the administrator move

158
00:11:54.679 --> 00:11:58.919
into a space and a teacher move
out of it, or how can people

159
00:11:58.960 --> 00:12:01.519
in the building support each other.
I talked to a really amazing principle a

160
00:12:01.519 --> 00:12:05.480
couple of years ago, and she
takes every teacher in the building who's trying

161
00:12:05.480 --> 00:12:07.440
to become the ministry, who's learning
to be a leader, and she uses

162
00:12:07.480 --> 00:12:11.159
them to do things because they're interning
or they're also in a space where they

163
00:12:11.159 --> 00:12:15.159
want to learn and do more on
the leadership side, while she goes into

164
00:12:15.200 --> 00:12:18.240
the classroom and teachers for two classes. So you just have to think a

165
00:12:18.279 --> 00:12:22.879
little bit more creatively about how people
are being allocated and how their expertise is

166
00:12:22.919 --> 00:12:26.679
being elevated. And that's really what
this book is about. Can you find

167
00:12:26.720 --> 00:12:30.799
ways to use teachers more than you're
using them, Because nine times out of

168
00:12:30.799 --> 00:12:33.360
ten, you walk into a conference
room where leaders are talking about instruction and

169
00:12:33.399 --> 00:12:41.320
there aren't teachers there. That's a
great point in one of the things that

170
00:12:41.360 --> 00:12:43.759
I was reading about the book,
I'm going to see if I can find

171
00:12:43.799 --> 00:12:50.440
it again, was that you have
nine key aspects of leadership that where you

172
00:12:50.480 --> 00:12:54.879
offer some creative solutions to some of
these challenges. I don't know that we'll

173
00:12:54.879 --> 00:12:58.440
be able to get into all nine, but what does that mean? What

174
00:12:58.480 --> 00:13:01.919
are some of those solutions that we
have up our sleeve? So what I

175
00:13:01.960 --> 00:13:07.000
did was I spent half of the
book talking about what I call micro elements

176
00:13:07.000 --> 00:13:09.159
of leadership and the other half our
macro. So if we think about the

177
00:13:09.200 --> 00:13:15.200
really age old analogy of forest for
trees, generally speaking in again I'm generalizing,

178
00:13:15.679 --> 00:13:20.200
teachers are more details oriented because they
are in classrooms where they are working

179
00:13:20.200 --> 00:13:24.039
on these very specific moves for specific
kids all day long. And so that's

180
00:13:24.080 --> 00:13:26.559
the part of the school that they
see. They see their classrooms, makes

181
00:13:26.559 --> 00:13:28.759
sense. Sometimes they see their teams, but that's usually where it stops.

182
00:13:30.000 --> 00:13:33.320
For administrators or leaders, they're looking
at a whole school picture. So it's

183
00:13:33.320 --> 00:13:35.000
more that they're looking at the whole
forest, not just the trees. So

184
00:13:35.080 --> 00:13:39.440
that's the micro to the macro.
So in the micro chapters, and you

185
00:13:39.440 --> 00:13:43.279
know, I'm looking at the headings
right now hiring for success, So how

186
00:13:43.320 --> 00:13:46.559
do you get the team that you
want. Instructional coaching, observing evaluations.

187
00:13:46.720 --> 00:13:50.519
Those are some of the things that
are much more micro intensive and that teachers

188
00:13:50.519 --> 00:13:54.679
can have a much more active role. And then for leadership, how to

189
00:13:54.720 --> 00:14:00.960
prevent fires, collaborative communication, two
way listening, leading by exam. So

190
00:14:01.039 --> 00:14:03.120
these are bigger ideas, bigger picture
things. But again, how do you

191
00:14:03.159 --> 00:14:07.360
pull that perspective in even when you
think that the focus is too broad,

192
00:14:07.639 --> 00:14:11.320
because it's not so. If you're
thinking of an overall professional development initiative for

193
00:14:11.360 --> 00:14:15.919
your school and you're busy bringing in
experts, or maybe you the leaders,

194
00:14:15.919 --> 00:14:20.759
are the experts giving the training,
wouldn't it be possibly better to have teachers

195
00:14:20.840 --> 00:14:26.039
who work in whatever it is you're
doing the pdon help to develop and deliver

196
00:14:26.159 --> 00:14:28.440
a lot of this training, and
that way their colleagues will appreciate it more,

197
00:14:28.440 --> 00:14:33.240
it will be more inclusive of everybody's
perspectives, those kinds of thoughts.

198
00:14:33.120 --> 00:14:39.080
You know, I've thought that for
a while that and I think it's I

199
00:14:39.120 --> 00:14:45.639
want to say it's Brian Aspinall,
who I'm connected with through Codebreaker and follow

200
00:14:45.720 --> 00:14:48.279
him on social media. I think
one of the things he says more famously

201
00:14:48.360 --> 00:14:56.200
than others is some of the best
professional development happens by the teacher down the

202
00:14:56.240 --> 00:15:01.600
hall, and I agree with that, and throughout career I have tried to

203
00:15:01.679 --> 00:15:05.600
lead learning walks and get teachers out
of the classroom to visit other teachers because

204
00:15:05.600 --> 00:15:11.159
I think it really it really lets
you see what other people are doing,

205
00:15:11.200 --> 00:15:16.519
and it gives you kind of that
broader perspective of you know, there are

206
00:15:16.519 --> 00:15:20.600
more things happening out there than just
what's happening in your classroom. So I

207
00:15:20.840 --> 00:15:24.679
guess what I'm I was thinking about
this the other day too, as I'm

208
00:15:24.679 --> 00:15:30.480
starting to I think, grow more
as what they call an entrepreneur, I

209
00:15:30.559 --> 00:15:35.559
was thinking like if and I'm not
really one, like a consultant to try

210
00:15:35.600 --> 00:15:39.360
and offer up my services to go
speak and provide PD and other districts.

211
00:15:39.399 --> 00:15:43.919
But I was thinking, like,
it's got to be way cheaper, a

212
00:15:43.000 --> 00:15:50.279
lot less expensive for districts to have
their own staff, their own teachers lead

213
00:15:50.639 --> 00:15:54.240
in ways that you know, they
they things that they know about, tool

214
00:15:54.440 --> 00:15:58.440
technology, tools that they know,
instructional methods that they do really well.

215
00:15:58.679 --> 00:16:02.759
And I think that's what you're getting
at here, But like, how can

216
00:16:02.840 --> 00:16:06.799
we how can school leaders do that? You know, I think what you

217
00:16:06.840 --> 00:16:12.320
said was they don't necessarily think specific
enough or small enough. They're kind of

218
00:16:12.360 --> 00:16:15.240
going broad and they think, oh, we got to bring in an expert.

219
00:16:15.279 --> 00:16:22.200
But it's like, how do we
recognize and value and then use the

220
00:16:22.120 --> 00:16:26.759
talent that we have already on the
staff. I think a lot of it

221
00:16:26.799 --> 00:16:29.360
does have to do with finding ways
to get into classrooms so you know what

222
00:16:29.399 --> 00:16:30.600
people are doing, because if you
don't know what teachers in your school are

223
00:16:30.600 --> 00:16:34.559
doing, you can't possibly proceed to
the next step of having them become part

224
00:16:34.559 --> 00:16:40.200
of the leadership. But you know, I'll just give an example. Schools

225
00:16:40.200 --> 00:16:42.360
have asked me in the past to
come in and do things like discourse walk

226
00:16:42.399 --> 00:16:45.840
throughs. Let's go through and see
how much kids are talking to each other,

227
00:16:45.879 --> 00:16:48.039
how much language they're producing, And
we go in for a day and

228
00:16:48.080 --> 00:16:52.000
we observe and fill out a sheet, and then you know, maybe the

229
00:16:52.039 --> 00:16:55.440
staff receives a follow up training base
and what the findings were. All this

230
00:16:55.519 --> 00:16:59.279
is very familiar methodology, and to
me, my thing is, let's let's

231
00:16:59.360 --> 00:17:04.200
go into classrooms for gathering data to
see who's doing really effective student to student

232
00:17:04.240 --> 00:17:10.440
discourse and who is elevating conversation and
questioning and critical thinking in their classrooms.

233
00:17:10.759 --> 00:17:14.759
And then let's have the teachers who
are doing that work with the rest of

234
00:17:14.799 --> 00:17:18.799
the staff to develop ideas. Because
if you walk through a building and most

235
00:17:18.799 --> 00:17:22.000
people are sitting there quietly, but
you have people who are finding ways to

236
00:17:22.039 --> 00:17:25.920
make it work, they should be
sharing their strategies at that point. As

237
00:17:25.960 --> 00:17:29.440
an instructional coach or a specialist or
whatever it is that I do, I

238
00:17:29.480 --> 00:17:33.319
can't have as much power in presenting
strategies as someone who's been doing it.

239
00:17:33.400 --> 00:17:34.920
You can go in and you can
fill them doing it. They can say,

240
00:17:34.960 --> 00:17:37.240
hey, I did this yesterday and
it was great. That has so

241
00:17:37.279 --> 00:17:41.759
much more power than I did this
however many years ago when it was great

242
00:17:41.920 --> 00:17:45.160
or in theory, this is supposed
to work. And I'm not saying that

243
00:17:45.160 --> 00:17:48.119
it's always like that with leaders.
Some leaders are really good, and I

244
00:17:48.160 --> 00:17:51.519
think a lot of them do this
at modeling what it is they want staff

245
00:17:51.519 --> 00:17:53.039
to do. So if you're having
a training on a specific topic, if

246
00:17:53.079 --> 00:17:56.319
you're training on station rotations, maybe
the meeting is set up as stating verstation

247
00:17:56.440 --> 00:18:00.680
rotations, and that's fantastic. I
think just a lot of the time we

248
00:18:00.720 --> 00:18:04.440
have a standard deliver model that isn't
really inspiring anybody. I hear that a

249
00:18:04.440 --> 00:18:07.000
lot, like, you know,
a lot of teachers out there say,

250
00:18:07.039 --> 00:18:12.440
hey, my admin, especially in
teacher evaluations, want us to be engaging

251
00:18:12.559 --> 00:18:18.039
and you know student center. But
yet we go to these faculty meetings and

252
00:18:18.079 --> 00:18:22.000
professional development sessions and we're just it's
just all lecture and you know, PowerPoint

253
00:18:22.039 --> 00:18:26.960
slides. This podcast is a proud
member of the Teach Better podcast Network,

254
00:18:26.319 --> 00:18:30.839
Better Today, Better Tomorrow, and
the podcast to get you there. Explore

255
00:18:30.960 --> 00:18:37.039
more podcasts at www dot Teach Better
podcast network dot com. Now let's get

256
00:18:37.039 --> 00:18:41.240
back to the episode. One of
the things that I really do enjoy doing,

257
00:18:41.440 --> 00:18:47.039
and again it kind of goes back
to my why of helping educators grow

258
00:18:47.119 --> 00:18:52.839
as instructional leaders is aiding. I
guess in that transition from teacher to school

259
00:18:52.960 --> 00:18:56.079
leader, and I guess school leader
can mean many different things, like I

260
00:18:56.119 --> 00:19:00.480
think you and I are school leaders, but we are not administered traders were

261
00:19:00.519 --> 00:19:04.279
coaches of sorts. But so I
do I guess when I ask you this

262
00:19:04.359 --> 00:19:10.440
question, I do really mean administrators, people who actually are aspiring to be

263
00:19:10.720 --> 00:19:15.880
school administrators right as they come out
of the classroom. What do you think

264
00:19:15.000 --> 00:19:18.640
is most important for them to remember? Because I think in a lot of

265
00:19:18.680 --> 00:19:22.119
ways, it would be very easy
for someone to think that your book is

266
00:19:22.160 --> 00:19:26.799
written for people who have been an
administrator for a while. Like you said,

267
00:19:26.279 --> 00:19:30.960
you know, the longer they're in
it, the further the more distanced

268
00:19:30.200 --> 00:19:33.759
they are from being in the classroom. What about someone who's like pretty fresh

269
00:19:33.799 --> 00:19:37.559
out of the classroom. It's the
big, biggest to remember that we're all

270
00:19:37.559 --> 00:19:40.599
there for the same reason, which
is to have a positive impact on student

271
00:19:40.640 --> 00:19:44.359
growth. Everyone the building should want
that, and we're all trying to achieve

272
00:19:44.400 --> 00:19:48.319
it from different vantage points and with
different areas, not different levels, different

273
00:19:48.319 --> 00:19:51.880
areas of expertise. So nobody in
that building is more important than anybody else.

274
00:19:51.920 --> 00:19:55.400
And I think I would I would
definitely remind newer leaders of that because

275
00:19:55.400 --> 00:19:56.960
sometimes you get really excited to relave
beast, like, oh look at me,

276
00:19:57.079 --> 00:20:03.480
now here I am, and you
forget very quickly that people are watching

277
00:20:03.519 --> 00:20:07.720
you, somewhat warily to see what
you're going to do and to see what

278
00:20:07.799 --> 00:20:11.079
you can fix and how you're going
to serve. And you know, leadership

279
00:20:11.119 --> 00:20:18.200
is a service position. It's it's
how can we provision help support partner with

280
00:20:18.319 --> 00:20:21.400
teachers to make sure that students are
getting what they need. And that's again

281
00:20:21.480 --> 00:20:23.759
toward that student achievements. So you
just keep your focus on what's best for

282
00:20:23.799 --> 00:20:29.400
the kids and really be transparent about
that, then you're going to be okay.

283
00:20:29.480 --> 00:20:33.839
It's when we start using phrases like
oh, I've taught so I know

284
00:20:33.480 --> 00:20:37.480
or you know. You're trying to
display that you have something and really it's

285
00:20:37.480 --> 00:20:41.640
a lot of talking and not a
lot of listening. So instead of explaining

286
00:20:41.839 --> 00:20:47.000
yourself to people or explaining who you
are or what your position is, just

287
00:20:47.079 --> 00:20:49.160
listen to them more. That's probably
a good place to start. Can you

288
00:20:49.200 --> 00:20:52.400
expand on that a little bit?
When you say listen to them more?

289
00:20:52.440 --> 00:20:56.599
How do school leaders do that?
Because I think, again, you know,

290
00:20:56.640 --> 00:21:00.039
when you're putting out fires all day
and maybe you're not getting into classrooms

291
00:21:00.039 --> 00:21:06.319
as much, they might wonder when
can I or how can I really listen

292
00:21:06.400 --> 00:21:10.880
more and hear from teachers more.
So I've put a lot of ideas and

293
00:21:10.920 --> 00:21:15.000
strategies, some of which I glean
from the wisdom of others, into the

294
00:21:15.039 --> 00:21:18.079
book, and one really simple thing
to do. Maybe it's not so simple,

295
00:21:18.119 --> 00:21:22.640
but it is just in terms of
its execution, is instead of working

296
00:21:22.039 --> 00:21:26.519
in an office, to move your
workstation into a teacher team room or a

297
00:21:26.519 --> 00:21:30.920
department room some space like that where
you're sitting among teachers, and to do

298
00:21:30.960 --> 00:21:33.720
it often enough that people aren't like, oh, here there comes the principle.

299
00:21:34.440 --> 00:21:38.119
If it becomes a normal thing,
you can normalize being among teachers or

300
00:21:38.160 --> 00:21:44.759
standing in the hallway more having more
casual conversations but very scheduled and intentional conversations

301
00:21:44.759 --> 00:21:47.599
in your mind with people about what
are you doing today? Oh, I'd

302
00:21:47.599 --> 00:21:51.960
really like to see that. So
just the visibility really helps too with creating

303
00:21:52.039 --> 00:21:53.759
that. I think a lot of
the time there's just no access. I

304
00:21:53.759 --> 00:21:57.519
mean, some principles offices, it's
like you're trying to get into see the

305
00:21:57.559 --> 00:22:03.200
president, you're making up ointments,
and you're you know, going through assistance

306
00:22:03.240 --> 00:22:04.720
and so forth, and you can't
really have that access. So if you

307
00:22:04.759 --> 00:22:08.240
open that up, it makes a
huge difference. And if you're willing to

308
00:22:08.279 --> 00:22:12.079
listen to people as well. I
think also from elementary to secondary, secondary

309
00:22:12.079 --> 00:22:18.599
schools are so much bigger that administrators
become less accessible. So again figuring out

310
00:22:18.640 --> 00:22:21.799
how to put yourself back in there
and then you'll hear things, and people

311
00:22:21.799 --> 00:22:25.319
will get more comfortable the more they
see you expressing themselves. And the other

312
00:22:25.359 --> 00:22:27.799
thing is, you know, and
this is again oversimplifying something that goes on

313
00:22:27.880 --> 00:22:30.480
much longer in the book, but
we tend to surround ourselves with people who

314
00:22:30.480 --> 00:22:33.880
agree with us. And we do
that because we do a lot of talking

315
00:22:33.240 --> 00:22:37.039
and not a whole lot of So
when someone expresses something that a leader doesn't

316
00:22:37.079 --> 00:22:41.400
like, very often, it becomes
an unsafe thing to do. So not

317
00:22:41.519 --> 00:22:45.240
saying a whole lot is talking less, and it's the same. It's the

318
00:22:45.240 --> 00:22:48.599
same strategy I recommend for teaching talk
less. I like that a lot.

319
00:22:51.119 --> 00:22:55.799
One of the things that I was
thinking, especially earlier in our conversation when

320
00:22:56.720 --> 00:23:02.240
you were talking about sort of those
negative leadership traits. And I may or

321
00:23:02.279 --> 00:23:04.200
may not be asking for a friend
when I ask you this, do you

322
00:23:04.240 --> 00:23:11.680
have I'm sure you do. Do
you have thoughts around leaders micromanaging too much?

323
00:23:11.839 --> 00:23:15.720
I mean, it's you know,
listening more and talking less is great,

324
00:23:15.720 --> 00:23:18.559
but what about the ones who seem
to just want to kind of have

325
00:23:18.599 --> 00:23:26.039
their hand and everything and leave very
little room for teachers to kind of step

326
00:23:26.119 --> 00:23:30.359
up in that leadership way or kind. It's so funny that you say that,

327
00:23:30.400 --> 00:23:33.799
because I've I've had By the way, can you still hear me?

328
00:23:34.000 --> 00:23:38.079
Yeah, just cut out for a
second. Okay, Um, we have

329
00:23:38.400 --> 00:23:41.160
leaders who too that I've always wondered
if it comes to a place of sort

330
00:23:41.160 --> 00:23:45.359
of deep more deeper, deeper seated
insecurity, like if I don't, if

331
00:23:45.359 --> 00:23:49.720
I don't manage and control every aspect
of what's happening in this school or with

332
00:23:49.839 --> 00:23:55.400
this teacher, then it's all going
to fall apart. So very much like

333
00:23:55.440 --> 00:23:57.559
we would say, if we want
a student centered or learning center environment our

334
00:23:57.599 --> 00:24:02.839
classrooms, we also want that have
more autonomy within the school. And the

335
00:24:02.839 --> 00:24:06.680
way to do that is to really, you know, what's the priority.

336
00:24:06.759 --> 00:24:11.200
What are we trying to achieve?
Set goals, set outcomes that everyone agrees

337
00:24:11.240 --> 00:24:12.440
on and that are clear, and
then see if they can meet them,

338
00:24:12.720 --> 00:24:17.039
show them how to meet them,
and then step back and if people are

339
00:24:17.119 --> 00:24:19.160
not doing what they said they could
do or would do when some time has

340
00:24:19.160 --> 00:24:23.480
gone by, I understand stepping in, but the content micromanagement drives almost everybody

341
00:24:23.480 --> 00:24:27.039
out of the job because all it
conveys really is a lack of trust.

342
00:24:27.359 --> 00:24:30.319
Yeah, that's a great point.
No, I was just I was just

343
00:24:30.359 --> 00:24:36.000
saying, back to your point on
trust, I really do think that that

344
00:24:36.200 --> 00:24:41.359
is everything basically, or at least
it's the foundational I've talked about this,

345
00:24:41.440 --> 00:24:47.359
I have a whole online course about
it. It's the foundation right of school

346
00:24:47.400 --> 00:24:52.200
culture. I guess I would say, because to your point in leadership,

347
00:24:52.960 --> 00:24:59.960
without it, you might have those
those settings where there's a lot of micro

348
00:25:00.119 --> 00:25:03.640
management, you might have those settings
where there's that and you know we set

349
00:25:03.640 --> 00:25:08.000
it before in the description of your
book, there's that distrust, that that

350
00:25:08.160 --> 00:25:14.799
kind of tainted relationship between teacher and
administrator that is frankly, for lack of

351
00:25:14.799 --> 00:25:18.720
better term, kind of poisonous to
the school. I guess as we start

352
00:25:18.759 --> 00:25:22.960
to wrap up here, UM,
we've talked a little bit about having administrators

353
00:25:22.960 --> 00:25:27.880
and leaders be more visible, UM, try to be better at at listening

354
00:25:27.960 --> 00:25:33.559
and speaking less and try to involve
teachers more. Is there anything else that,

355
00:25:34.400 --> 00:25:38.599
let me ask it this way,
Let's say there is already kind of

356
00:25:38.599 --> 00:25:44.960
a culture of that distrust, and
are there are there band aids or are

357
00:25:45.000 --> 00:25:48.279
there like bandages that we could put
on, Like, what are some ways

358
00:25:48.319 --> 00:25:55.079
that maybe can help turnaround situations where
it's already really strained, like strained relationships.

359
00:25:55.960 --> 00:25:57.680
Yeah, So usually I go behind, you know, start with the

360
00:25:57.720 --> 00:26:00.559
technical fix, which is the band, and then do the adaptive change.

361
00:26:00.599 --> 00:26:03.759
But in a case like this,
I feel like you kind of need to

362
00:26:03.799 --> 00:26:07.880
start with adaptive change because anything that
surface levels teachers are going to see and

363
00:26:08.079 --> 00:26:12.559
not be okay with. So to
that end, I'm a big believer in

364
00:26:12.640 --> 00:26:17.839
what I call feedback on feedback,
which is you ask people for their thoughts,

365
00:26:18.200 --> 00:26:21.759
you genuinely want to know, it's
not a rid game, and then

366
00:26:21.960 --> 00:26:27.319
you respond within days and let them
know what the result of their feedback was.

367
00:26:27.400 --> 00:26:32.240
So you said you wanted this more
so we had a staff meeting and

368
00:26:32.279 --> 00:26:36.279
you said we needed more time to
have training on this platform. So next

369
00:26:36.319 --> 00:26:38.160
month, as a result, we're
going to have someone come in or we're

370
00:26:38.200 --> 00:26:41.359
not. But here's why. So
either you know, you communicate that an

371
00:26:41.359 --> 00:26:45.480
email, you can communicate that verbal, You follow up with the people who

372
00:26:45.519 --> 00:26:48.680
you need to follow up with,
and you close what I call the feedback

373
00:26:48.720 --> 00:26:53.680
hole. You actually create a system
that works and transparently is addressing what people

374
00:26:53.720 --> 00:26:59.000
need. Because if you're not doing
that, and we collect so many surveys

375
00:26:59.440 --> 00:27:03.920
in education, like endless, endless
Google forms, and they can be a

376
00:27:03.000 --> 00:27:06.720
wonderful tool, but they're not a
great tool if they wind up in somebody's

377
00:27:06.799 --> 00:27:08.599
drive somewhere and never get looked at
again. And I feel like that's what

378
00:27:08.680 --> 00:27:14.200
usually happens. So one thing you
can do really quickly is start getting honest

379
00:27:14.240 --> 00:27:17.279
feedback for things you can change,
not things are trying to pretend you can't

380
00:27:17.279 --> 00:27:22.119
but can't, and then go from
there and work with people's That's just one

381
00:27:22.160 --> 00:27:26.759
strategy. I really like, that's
great before we do, and I wanted

382
00:27:26.799 --> 00:27:32.319
to make sure that my listeners know
how to find your publications and find you

383
00:27:32.440 --> 00:27:34.119
and reach out to you if necessary. I think this is a great conversation,

384
00:27:34.160 --> 00:27:40.480
and I really do you know.
This is kind of again like because

385
00:27:40.640 --> 00:27:44.000
I think the positions that you and
I are in and have been throughout our

386
00:27:44.000 --> 00:27:47.680
careers. But I really do think
the concept of leading like a teacher is

387
00:27:47.680 --> 00:27:49.599
really important. That's why I was
excited to talk to you tonight. I'm

388
00:27:49.599 --> 00:27:52.119
excited to read the book. I
haven't yet, but I'm I'm thinking I'm

389
00:27:52.119 --> 00:27:56.240
going to go out and get a
copy. So where can my listeners get

390
00:27:56.279 --> 00:28:00.960
their copies and where can they find
you? So the books are available everywhere

391
00:28:00.960 --> 00:28:03.319
books are sold, so you know
Amazon Prime is fantastic. But there's also

392
00:28:03.400 --> 00:28:07.640
my publisher's page. I'm published with
ww Nortin, so my books aren't there.

393
00:28:07.720 --> 00:28:11.480
I have two out which I teach
more horver lesson this one, Lead

394
00:28:11.480 --> 00:28:14.279
like a Teacher and then Writing their
Future Selves is coming out on the fall,

395
00:28:15.200 --> 00:28:18.480
and anyone can find me in two
places. My website is my first

396
00:28:18.480 --> 00:28:22.119
and last name dot com, so
that's Miriam Plotynski dot com. And the

397
00:28:22.119 --> 00:28:26.160
only social I'm really good at is
by good I mean I check it is

398
00:28:26.200 --> 00:28:30.319
Twitter, which is at mirplo mcps, so that's a good one too.

399
00:28:30.359 --> 00:28:33.440
So through my contact page on the
website or through Twitter, I will get

400
00:28:33.440 --> 00:28:36.640
back to you, I promise.
I'm very good about that. Excellent And

401
00:28:36.799 --> 00:28:41.319
for the listeners out there, you
can always check the show notes for each

402
00:28:41.319 --> 00:28:47.559
of my episodes two where I will
have links to the books and especially Lead

403
00:28:47.599 --> 00:28:52.240
Like a Teacher, so that'll be
a Leader of Learning dot com slash episode

404
00:28:52.400 --> 00:28:57.400
one sixty Leader of Learning dot Com
Slash episode one sixty will be information about

405
00:28:57.480 --> 00:29:00.839
this episode Miriam and the book books. Mariam, thank you so much for

406
00:29:00.880 --> 00:29:04.480
your time and really appreciate connecting like
this and keep up the great work.

407
00:29:04.519 --> 00:29:07.680
Like I said, I really dig
this topic of lead like a teacher,

408
00:29:07.839 --> 00:29:11.960
so thanks, thank you. I
appreciate a chance to talk about it more.

409
00:29:15.240 --> 00:29:19.000
Well that's it for this episode.
Thank you so much for listening.

410
00:29:19.400 --> 00:29:22.839
If you haven't done so yet,
don't forget to subscribe to this show on

411
00:29:22.920 --> 00:29:26.920
your favorite podcast app. If you
enjoy the content covered on this show,

412
00:29:27.160 --> 00:29:30.920
I want to ask you to do
this one thing for me. Please share

413
00:29:30.920 --> 00:29:36.240
it. The biggest favor you could
ever do for me is to please let

414
00:29:36.279 --> 00:29:41.039
others know about what I'm doing and
how I'm helping educators grow their impact as

415
00:29:41.079 --> 00:29:45.920
instructional leaders. I hope you can
share this podcast with other educators, leaders,

416
00:29:45.240 --> 00:29:49.480
friends, or anyone you think would
love listening and learning. If you're

417
00:29:49.519 --> 00:29:53.440
interested in leaving a positive rating and
review of this show, links to do

418
00:29:53.559 --> 00:29:59.440
so or always in the show notes
for every episode. For more information about

419
00:29:59.480 --> 00:30:03.160
me or this show, and to
access the great content that I share,

420
00:30:03.440 --> 00:30:07.319
please visit my website at Leader of
Learning dot com. That's where you can

421
00:30:07.319 --> 00:30:11.799
find my online courses, YouTube channel, blog, how to connect with me

422
00:30:11.880 --> 00:30:15.880
on social media, and even ways
that you can support the show. Like

423
00:30:15.039 --> 00:30:21.839
donating or purchasing Leader of Learning merchandise. Thanks again, and remember no matter

424
00:30:21.920 --> 00:30:25.920
who you are or where you are, you are a leader of learning.